Loading for the .50-50-300

[jhrosier]

I decided to try my .500 S&W handi-rifle with BP.
I had some 300gr boolits cast from 1:30 in a Pietta mould for my Smith carbine.
The mould cast way too small for the Smith, but just about right for the .500S&W.
The boolits were dipped in melted Carnauba Red and pushed through a Lee .501 sizer.
I found that the Lee 3.1cc dipper is supposed to throw 50grs FFg and that amount fills the .500 case to 1/4" from the top after a couple of taps to settle the powder.
I had used Hodgdons Triple 7, FFg grade, in other rifle cartridges with good results, so I used it for this load.
I like the easy cleanup with T7 and have used it before with the CR lube with excellent results.

The firing results were encouraging, though not outstanding.
At 25 yards most of my second ten shots were in a nearly perfect horizontal line about 2-1/2" wide.

I loaded and fired a total of twenty rounds, in the worst range conditions that I have ever experienced. I was not going to let the 20 degree temperatures, high and constantly shifting winds and snow keep me from trying out my new rifle and new loads.:holysheep
The factory sights on the handi-rifle are a couple of those fiber optic plastic wonder sights that usually reside in the junk parts bins of knowledgeable shooters. They will likewise grace my junk bin as soon as suitable replacements can be found. I never realized that one could get so many different sight pictures from one set of sights.

By the time I started my second ten shot string, my fingers and just about everything else were completely numb. By that time I had also attracted a good number of onlookers as it was just too miserable for them to shoot. Kinda makes you wonder why so many folks decided to brave the elements when it isn't even the day before hunting season.[smilie=l:

The fouling was very light and did not increase at all after the first shot. I was worried about leading with the 1:30 boolits but not a trace was to be found after twenty shots. There was no cleaning or wiping during firing as I had left all of my BP shooting stuff at home.

It will be interesting to see how the gun shoots under more favorable conditions.

The cleanup was easy, as expected. One wet patch, one dry patch, and one oiled patch and the gun was squeaky clean. The brass was rinsed with a dab of detergent in hot water and then soaked for a while in hot water with some white vinegar. I was surprised that there was some apparent light corrosion of the brass after it had set for only a couple of hours. I had not seen this before with T7 but the conditions were not such that the brass was damp until cleaning.

What's next?

A set of usable sights is defiantly in order.

I have the Lee 500440GC mould and will try the boolits, without gas checks.
I have a 1/2" hole punch around somewhere and will punch out some 1/32" poly wads for over the powder.

I just might ream the GC shank to .500 as I have no need of $50 per thousand GCs for plinking loads.

I will see how far the Lee boolit can be seated out to touch the rifling in leave a bit more room for powder.

The relatively small case might need FFFg real BP to get decent velocity with the heavier boolits. The .500 brass is pretty heavy and didn't expand fast enough to completely prevent chamber fouling. Perhaps the FFFg will be better in this respect.

In any case, it was a lot of fun recreating the old .50 Maynard.

Jack

[RMulhern]

You could use a good rifle also! Handi Rifles are just that.....'handy' for boat anchors!!

[NickSS]

Sounds like fun! I have thought of buying a 500 S&W barrel for my handy rifle just to do the same as you have done except I would use real black powder and BP lube on the bullets. With 777 it will work with smokeless lube as the stuff is really not BP but with real BP you will have fouling problems. I shoot both the 56-50 Spencer and the 50-70 Gov rounds and the 500 S&W is just about midway between the two except smaller dia for the bullets. So it is really close to the old 50-50 Maynard round of yesteryear.

[jhrosier]

NickSS,

It certainly is fun, despite the terrible conditions today.
Regarding the lube, I have used Carnauba Red with BP in my .58 musketoon, with excellent results. The lube contains only beeswax and carnauba wax. The .58 went 40 rounds straight with no wiping between shots and no apparent loss of accuracy or increase in loading difficulty.

================================================== ========================

The handi-rifle is surely not a Browning or Shilo Sharps, but a pretty serviceable rifle for $250. I can live with changing the sights to suit my preferences. The gun has the feel and general appearance of the big bore carbines that were in use during the Civil War, and that is a great part of what attracted me to the gun in the first place. BTW, I have several single shot Brownings and Rugers, so I know the difference.

I'm curious to know if the Buffington style sight from the Krag rifle might fit my barrel.....

Jack

[idahoron]

I use the Lee C-501-440-RF as a paper patched Muzzleloader bullet. I use 80gr of Pyrodex P with an over powder wad. I get sub 2" groups at 100 yards with that load. Ron

[jhrosier]

Ron,

What size do you make the patched boolit?

Jack

[Old Goat Keeper]

You also might try T7 in FFF granulation. BTW, T7 has more energy per grain than either real black powder or pyrodex.

Tom

[jhrosier]

You also might try T7 in FFF granulation. BTW, T7 has more energy per grain than either real black powder or pyrodex.

Tom

T7 FFFg is never to be used for loading cartridges. I got this direct from Hogdons techs a couple of years ago.

I will go with real BP if I need more power than T7 FFg can provide.
My instincts tell me that T7 FFg is likely pretty close to real BP FFFg anyhow.
I may set up the chronograph to check this out when the weather improves.

Jack

[idahoron]

Ron,

What size do you make the patched boolit?

Jack

They come out of the mould at .501 Then I wrap them with 9# onion skin and run them through the lee .501 sizer dry. They swell back out just a pinch but go down snug. They shoot great out of green Mountain barrels. Ron

[jhrosier]

I tried the Lee C-501-440-RF over 50gr vol of Triple 7 FFg grade today.
I'm too cheap to blow fifty bucks on gas checks so I punched out some half inch diameter over powder wads from 0.030" polypropylene.
The boolits were dipped in melted Carnauba Red and pushed through a Lee sizer.
I seated the boolits only to the last lube groove to leave more room for the powder.
They were about 1/16" from the rifling.

The recoil was starting to get noticeable.

The gun put five shots onto about 1-1/2" at twenty five yards.
I only loaded twenty rounds so I shot the last fifteen at fifty yards.
The gun shot about a foot higher at fifty than at twenty five.
Once I got the sights set close to point of aim, the last five shots went into about 2", with four in 1-1/2".

The factory sights are still hopeless. I'm ordering a Williams receiver sight this week.


Jack

[NickSS]

A couple of days ago I ran into an acquaintence at my club who was shooting a real 50-50 it was a Remington Rolling block cabine chambered for the 50 carbine cartridge. This cartridge was short lived and is basically a shortened 50-70 shell that hold 50 gr of powder and was loaded with a 250 gr bullet. Basically a center fire version of the 56-50 spencer round with a bit longer case and more powder. I got to shoot a couple of rounds and actually hit a chicken silhouette target at 200 yards with it. It was a real hoot. Now I am getting the hots for a 500 S&W barrel for my handy rifle so that I can make a less powerful carbine to simulate a 50-50 with BP

[jhrosier]

Nick
There aren't many lightweight .500S&W moulds to choose from.
I think that the RCBS 50AE mould is going to be your only choice.
http://images1.opticsplanet.com/750-500-ffffff/opplanet-rcbs-bullet-mould-50-340-swc-611-82087.jpg
It is listed as 340 grs.

The 440 gr Lee mould could be milled to eliminate the GC shank and it would come in at about 400 grs.
Optics Planet has the RCBS mould listed for $70. BTW, it is a single cavity.

The 440 gr Lee boolit over 50 grs vol. T7 is close to my limit for recoil for casual shooting from the bench.
I'd bet that it would drop a deer or hog with authority though.:smile:

Jack

[Antietamgw]

A couple of days ago I ran into an acquaintence at my club who was shooting a real 50-50 it was a Remington Rolling block cabine chambered for the 50 carbine cartridge.

Naval contract or something like that? I found one of these barrels at a gunshow last year. Nobody knew quite what it was at the time but I know Rolling Block barrel shanks when I see them and since it appeared to be a new old barrel, it was worth taking a chance. I have a spare black powder action and will fit it one of these days. Ought to be fun to shoot and just fine for deer as well. I'd often thought the S&W/Handi combination would make an inexpensive rig that would do exactly the same thing.

[jhrosier]

I usually don't do silly things like naming a gun.....however.

The .500S&W handi-rifle has been named "Thumper".[smilie=l:

I got back out to the range with a bunch more of the 440 gr RNFP boolits loaded over 50grs vol of T7 and a 1/32" poly wad.

In the absence of a raging gale, the gun was much more fun to shoot.

The first 2 shots were nearly touching @ 50 yds, but about 4" to the right from where they hit the day before. This temporarily confused me until I noticed that the rear sight was hanging partway out of the dovetail. It seems that the locking screws don't keep the squishy plastic sights located very well.
I didn't bother to look for a screwdriver but just pushed the sight back into the center of the base with my finger.:holysheep

The next two shots were in the center of the bull and almost touching. I repeated this trick several more times until I ran out of ammo.
It looks like Thumper is going to be a good shooter, with a bit of help.

I ordered the Williams Foolproof receiver sight with the target knobs from their website a little while ago.

$94.00 delivered !

I seem to remember the Williams sights as being modestly priced not too long ago. Times sure change.
There really aren't many options for sights for the H&R rifles. It just doesn't seem natural to put a scope on a black powder gun (yeah, I know, times have changed)

Once I get the rear sight mounted, I will be able to tell what height front sight will allow enough elevation to shoot from 25 to 200 yards. I have a few Lyman #17 front sights squirreled away in the parts drawer and will mount one of them on a screw-on ramp.

The sights are going to wind up being worth about half what I paid for the rifle.
Spending all my money on gun stuff keeps me out of pool rooms and bars, at least that is what I tell my wife.:bigsmyl2:

Jack

[wgr]

You could use a good rifle also! Handi Rifles are just that.....'handy' for boat anchors!!

might be true but some of us just cant afford a $2/3000 rifle sure wish i had a good sharpes maybe some day. buy the way i have a handy buffalo classic thats shoot 500 grain pp bullets better than i can shoot. i have a 50cal mould that cast a .500 bullet. adjustable up to 500 grains that might work well in your .500 handi

[jhrosier]

WGR,

Thanks, I will keep your mould in mind. The Lee 440 gr looks like it might work out well, though.
I have two driving bands inside the case and am missing the lands by about 1/16".
This leaves room for 50 grs powder, which gives about all the recoil that I want in a 7 lb gun.;-)

When I went from the 300gr boolit to the 440 gr, the cases expanded enough to eliminate most all of the blowby and the cleanup got easier.

I'm hoping for another warm weekend so I can set up the chronograph and see what sort of velocity I'm getting. Probably not to high. the boolit drops about a half foot from 50 to 100 yds. so my guess would be around 1200 fps at the muzzle.

Jack

[SharpsShooter]

The sights are going to wind up being worth about half what I paid for the rifle.

Jack

Ain't it amazing what stuff costs anymore? It might scare ya how good it shoots with sights that don't wander around :D


might be true but some of us just cant afford a $2/3000 rifle sure wish i had a good sharpes maybe some day. buy the way i have a handy buffalo classic thats shoot 500 grain pp bullets better than i can shoot.

I have a very good friend that also has a BC in 45-70 that delivers sub MOA groups regularly with both white and black powder. So what they don't use them at Raton or other big long range shoots. In the hands of a capable shooter, those types might be glad they aren't.

SS

[Rafe Covington]

I have a friend that shoots FFG-777 in a 500 Linebaugh case, hes been very successful with it deer hunting, uses a 330 gr bullet.

Rafe Covington:redneck:

[jhrosier]

Ain't it amazing what stuff costs anymore? It might scare ya how good it shoots with sights that don't wander around :D

Well, the Williams FP-H&R-TK rear sight was $93.95 delivered, direct from Williams. I used a Lyman #77 front sight from my collection that would sell for about $75, so my guess that the sights would cost about half as much as the rifle was pretty close.

The hole spacing on the Lyman front sight base did not match the H&R barrel, so only one screw was used to mount the front sight. I used a drop of Loctite #380 under the base and a bit on the threads so the sight should stay put with my 777 loads.

The ammo was the same load of a Lee 440gr boolit and a 1/32" poly wad over 50grs vol. of Hogdons Triple 7 powder. BTW, the Corbon cases use a LR primer and I used the same WW LR primers from an older (white box) lot.

I have, so far, not been weighing the boolits and have used any without obvious flaws.
The boolits are cast from 4-4-92 alloy and water dropped. I dip the boolits in melted Lars Carnauba Red and then push them through a Lee 0.501 sizer. Although the boolit shank is rebated for the use of a gas check, I chose to not waste a nickle on a check when I can punch out poly wads for free. The boolits are seated over a 1/2" diameter wad that I punch out of .030" polypropylene. I seat to the lower crimp groove which gives light compression to the powder charge. A light crimp removes the case mouth belling, plus just a bit more. The powder is measured with a Lee 3.1cc dipper.

The Williams receiver sight fit without any issues but it does hang over the end of the barrel, making cartridge removal tricky for those with adult sized fingers.
The current production Handirifles have extractors, not ejectors like the earlier models.

The Williams sight seems to be better fitted than the Lyman receiver sight that I bought a few months ago. When the lock screws are loosened to adjust the sight there is very little wiggle between the arm and the base.

I finished the installation by adding a small sized Merit Master Disk aperture. The Merit Master disk is adjustable from about 0.030" to 0.090" so it can be used for hunting, plinking, or target. I like it because I can size the aperture to suit my eyesight and the ambient light conditions by clicking the aperture larger or smaller without the use of tools.

Range conditions were passable, excepting the temperatures which were in the high teens by mid afternoon. I set a target at 25 yards and made an initial sight adjustment. I had selected a narrow post from the selection of front sight inserts but decided to swap it for a small aperture when I reset the target to 50 yards.

I took about ten shots to fine adjust the sights and settle my front and rear bags and find a comfortable and repeatable shooting position.

For the information of new shooters:
Shooting low velocity cast boolit loads requires mounting the gun the same way for each shot to control the recoil properly. The boolit is still in the barrel while the gun begins to recoil and failing to hold consistently will result in large groups.

I fired 5 rounds on each of 4 targets at fifty yards.
The groups averaged about 2", but each target would have a tight cluster fo three or four shots inside an inch, with one or two fliers doubling the group size. My best two targets of the day were each four shots well inside an inch, each with a flier opening the group to about 1-1/2".

I am very satisfied with these results, considering the factors.

What's next?

A nice day would be welcome.:smile:

The next batch of boolits will be weighed to eliminate internal voids or other causes of weight variation.

I will use my B&M powder measure to get more consistent powder charges.

I may compare the results of using large pistol primers vs. large rifle primers.
I have had good results with large pistol primers with 777 on other calibers.

=========================================

I fired my last five rounds at targets of opportunity at 100 yards. There was about 5" of additional drop from my 50 yard sight setting. I would guess that the muzzle velocity is 1100 to 1200 fps, based on the drop.

Pretty good fun for about twenty cents a shot. That sure beats the $2.50 per shot of factory ammo.

I noticed that the 440 gr boolits punched right through four feet of packed snow.
That impressed me a bit. That big, slow flat nosed boolit might be just fine for hunting.

Jack

[reivertom]

You could use a good rifle also! Handi Rifles are just that.....'handy' for boat anchors!!

Why do some people think it is OK to cut down another man's weapons? Actually this thread is about a cartridge and nobody asked your opinion about Handi Rifles. That is just plain rude.

[RMulhern]

receivertom

"That is just plain rude."

No....it's just plain truthful!! One can have the HOLY GRAIL of bullets and if the rifle is junk....ALL IS LOST!!

[jhrosier]

..... if the rifle is junk....

I am not ready to accept your opinion without real data.

My objective was, and remains, to determine if the .500 S&W cartridge could be loaded with BP or a BP sub and replicate the carbines used around the time of the Civil War.

So far, I am satisfied with the results of my investigation. The problems with the sights were a disappointment, but not a reason to declare the gun as "junk."

The gun is, however, no longer a $250 rifle. The replacement of the sights increased the cost of the gun to around $400. I am not surprised that H&R cut corners on the open sights as most folks put telescopes on their rifles anyway.

It appears that the gun is likely capable of consistent 2 moa groups with just a bit more work on the loads. I would not be surprised to see the groups shrink well below that, but would not be terribly disappointed either.

The 22" barrel is most certainly not the best choice for a BP target rifle. It is, however, well suited for a handy carbine.

I may be handicapping the gun by shooting gas check boolits with a over powder wad instead of a gas check, but this is not evident from the initial results. My first thought was to ream the gas check shank to bore diameter but I still may want to try full power smokeless powder loads at some point.

I may load up a few rounds with some Trail Boss powder to see how smokeless powder performs compared to BP. I don't expect to see any large improvement but it will be interesting to make a comparison.

Temperatures are expected to get up only to the mid teens today so I will probably spend the day loading and casting instead of shooting.

Jack

[idahoron]

Jack, I have been using that bullet for several years now like i said before. I paper patch it for my ML. A couple of things you can test to see if it shrinks your groups. I weigh my bullets and only keep the ones that are +- .5 grains. Also I have tested different lead form Pure virgin lead to lead shot. The bullets made from lead shot with a paper patch shot ok but I needed to clean after every shot to keep it in the ball park. I tried pure virgin lead from Rotometal. These bullets shot good paper patched. I bumped the hardness up by adding lead shot to virgin lead. I use a Cabine tree tester for hardness. The dial said .032 to .038 that is between 5 BHN and 8 BHN. The hardness of this mix is the same as stick on wheel weights and lead pipe.
With this mix of lead I got fantastic results with that bullet.
Also remember you can paper patch for that gun. I make two wraps of 9# onion skin dry and run it through the sizer dry. The paper sticks on pretty well. I have never paper patched for that cartridge so your on you own with that. All I can say is that bullet will shooot but you might need to tweek the lead mix. Good luck. Ron

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/500SW3-22-08small.jpg

[jhrosier]

Ron,

That is pretty good shooting. You are doing as well at 100 yards as I am at 50.
I'm going to continue with the lubed boolits for a while longer.
If they won't get close to 1 moa, I will try PP.

Are you using the Lee push through sizer for your PP boolits?

Jack

[idahoron]

Yes I am using a Lee .501
I do think that a lot of my success on that load is the lead mix and the paper. The deer I have shot and my antelope were HAMMERED when they were hit. That wide meplat works. Ron

[Nobade]

Not to mention the throat design in that rifle is just about perfect for paper patched bullets. You may need to size them down more for black powder (remember that is not a normal 50 caliber barrel, but rather .501 GROOVE dia.) Or run them at .502 (with the Lee .501 sizer) for full whack smokeless loads.

[jhrosier]

You guys are starting to tempt me to try PP.
I did find a package of .002" vellum in my stash of stuff.

Boolit drops at .503",
.002" x 4 = .008" for 2 wraps, .008" + .503 = .511" I wonder if I could get away with sizing down from .511 to .501 with the Lee push through sizer?

Jack

[idahoron]

My mould drops out at .501 I wrap two wraps and send them through the Lee .501 in one pass. I am also using softer lead. That will make a big difference. Ron