M1894 38-55 Feeding Problem

[cwskirmisher]

OK, so I order the Starline longer cases (2.125) and load up some Lee 379-250's. I crimp at the crimp groove, and OAL is 2.53. The SAAMI shows max OAL at 2.55, so I think I am ok... until I put them in the mag tube and try to cycle them.

The round will not feed up into the chamber, as if it is too long - the top of the bullet and bottom of the brass at the nose end are rubbing (there are witness marks on the rounds). If I reduce the OAL to 2.45 they will chamber, but reluctanlty with a little bit of force on the lever.

No issues with interference from the mag tube up to the chamber itself, it seems that the OAL is just too long. If I load the 225 grain rounds, the OAL is 2.40 and they feed OK. Using Winchester brass with the Lee boolits, the rounds feed fine.

Any thoughts as to why this is occurring if I am within the SAAMI OAL spec? By the way, single loaded rounds thru the top will chamber and extract fine.

[Doc Highwall]

Have you checked if shorter cases were fired in the gun leaving fouling where the case mouth would have ended? An example would be shooting 38spl in a 357mag and then trying to shoot 357mags with out brushing the cylinder first. Another thing have you slugged the chamber and what size are your bullets?

[cwskirmisher]

Have you checked if shorter cases were fired in the gun leaving fouling where the case mouth would have ended? An example would be shooting 38spl in a 357mag and then trying to shoot 357mags with out brushing the cylinder first. Another thing have you slugged the chamber and what size are your bullets?

The issue is not in the throat. I have thoroughly cleaned it in any case. The issue is initial feeding up into the chamber. Single loaded rounds work fine, but rounds cycled thru the magazine do not.

[Pepe Ray]

What generation is your rifle?
SAAMI has changed the specks, favoring the newer short brass. Therefore newer rifles would be engineered for that.
Pepe Ray

[missionary5155]

Greetings and Merry Christmas
Is this a newer rifle ?
I own numerous older 35-55´s and have to say they can be finiky with certain nose profiles.
Length can also be a problem. Generally that 2.55 length should work but individual rifles and parts seem to settle into their given specs.
You might check to be sure that the internals are not being restricted by old accumulated crud build up. A detail dissaembly has helped more than one of my lever guns as there were accumulations in the corners and spaces that the parts would bump into restricting movement.

[excess650]

IIRC, he has a 1905 vintage 1894, so pretty old and would predate SAAMI specs.

[oneokie]

Having experienced the same problem, IMO, the ogive of the nose is wrong. I compared the nose ogive of some 255 grain Winchester sp bullets to the Lee nose ogive and there is a marked difference. The Winchester sp bullets feed fine in my rifle using the long Starline brass with a COAL of 2.550.

If one has no qualms about modifing the rifle, remove the cartridge guides and open up the notches in them rearward. This will allow the base of the cartridge to move upward sooner when the bolt pushes the cartridge forward to chamber.

[John Taylor]

One of the problem with a strait case is getting the rear of the case up in front of the bolt. I run into this a lot with the 86s going to 50-110. The feed rails will lift the rear of the cartridge on a bottle neck before it has a chance to bind in the chamber but a strait case will bind on the chamber wall before the feed rails pick up the rear. On a 38-55 if the bullet is to much of a round blunt nose or the brass is a bit long it will end up causing the same problem. On the 50-110 the bottom of the chamber mouth is rounded off and the chamber is polished so the cartridge will feed. This can be done on a 94 also but requires the barrel to be removed.
Probably work with a different bullet design.

[405]

I have and shoot two of them. One DOM 1894 and the other DOM 1900. They have the shorter Win chambers so require the shorter brass.... 2.085. That will shorten the loaded round OAL by the difference in case lengths (about .040) if the brass is left untrimmed. If you trim the 2.085 by .010 to 2.075 that will reduce the loaded round OAL by .050. The early 1894 Win 38-55s also tend to have the smallish chambers.... so the Starline with the slightly thinner neck case walls is the way to go. As to which bullet will work??? depends on the length of the bullet nose from crimp groove to tip. If I were you I'd get an idea about that chamber length. NOT a good plan to shoot brass that is too long.... can crimp the case mouth into the bullet when the round is fully seated in the chamber.

[cwskirmisher]

I have and shoot two of them. One DOM 1894 and the other DOM 1900. They have the shorter Win chambers so require the shorter brass.... 2.085. That will shorten the loaded round OAL by the difference in case lengths (about .040) if the brass is left untrimmed. If you trim the 2.085 by .010 to 2.075 that will reduce the loaded round OAL by .050. The early 1894 Win 38-55s also tend to have the smallish chambers.... so the Starline with the slightly thinner neck case walls is the way to go. As to which bullet will work??? depends on the length of the bullet nose from crimp groove to tip. If I were you I'd get an idea about that chamber length. NOT a good plan to shoot brass that is too long.... can crimp the case mouth into the bullet when the round is fully seated in the chamber.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I am not going to modify this gun. It is all original. It has a long chamber that will support a 2.125 brass length. Short brass rounds feed fine with all boolit types, but are not very accurate. Long brass rounds with a 225 grain boolit feed fine and are accurate. Long brass with the Lee boolit do not feed. So, it has to be the ogive and crimp groove-to-nose length, so will look into maybe crimping forward of the groove to where it will feed.

[405]

If you are sure the chamber is the longer length then longer case is the best way to go for sure. Those early chambers didn't have a sharp "step".... the mouth/neck end of the chamber tapered into the throat/leade. And, not altering the gun is a good idea- that'd be the last thing I'd do. Crimping ahead of the front band is iffy for a tube magazine gun because all the force exerted during recoil will try to ram the bullet(s) farther into the case..... unless of course you're loading a fully compressed charge of BP- then the BP charge itself may keep the bullets in place.

[excess650]

405,
I shoot the 280gr GC Lyman 375449 in my rebored Savage 1899 and do not crimp. True, the rounds are in the rotary magazine, but must be pushed against a ramp to feed. They do no move because there is enough neck tension to hold them in place. Mine are .378" or so, and his are larger(unless they are some that I sent him), so shouldn't move.

CWSkirmisher,
What bullet is the 225gr? Did you try the Lyman 375248 250gr? Does the Ranch Dog 240gr design work?

[cwskirmisher]

405,
I shoot the 280gr GC Lyman 375449 in my rebored Savage 1899 and do not crimp. True, the rounds are in the rotary magazine, but must be pushed against a ramp to feed. They do no move because there is enough neck tension to hold them in place. Mine are .378" or so, and his are larger(unless they are some that I sent him), so shouldn't move.

CWSkirmisher,
What bullet is the 225gr? Did you try the Lyman 375248 250gr? Does the Ranch Dog 240gr design work?

I have both the 375248 and the RD, but haven't yet tried them in the long brass - but I will.

[358wcf]

I use this boolit in the longer Starline cases in my modern (1980's) M1894 rifle without trouble. It feeds well. So far I have only used the Lee boolit in the M1885 single shot, which loads any length easily.
IIRC the original 38-55 factory loads of the 1900 era had extremely short, blunt boolits, which should have proven quite short in OAL.
I agree with the comments above about boolit nose profile being the problem, as well as OAL.
Have you tried seating/crimping your boolits a bit deeper? Might work better-

358wcf [smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!

[cwskirmisher]

Have you tried seating/crimping your boolits a bit deeper? Might work better-

358wcf [smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!

Yes, but as '405' noted, once you are on the ogive, you have to be careful about the boolit being pushed back into the case - there is no purchase for the crimp at the length that works... so I think I will try the other two boolits. My biggest problem was getting a boolit large enough - I need a .380 or .381 and the Lee did that for me. The Lyman is .378-.379. The RD is .379 too... may work OK though.

[markinalpine]

You might find some help here: http://marauder.homestead.com/rifles.html
Good luck,
Mark [smilie=s:

[405]

cwskirm.
Got back home to my stuff. Looked as some specs in my log book for both my 1894 38-55s.

All bullets I tried were loaded to between 2.50 and 2.62" OAL. The RCBS 250 FNGC bullet crimped in the crimp groove was loaded to an OAL of 2.50". All the FN bullets I tried loaded to an OAL between 2.50 and 2.62" fed and cycled fine in my 1894s. All my brass is trimmed to 2.070. I found that bullets that were undersized tended to be unstable and bullets that were plain based tended to be unstable... did not seem to matter if loaded with smokeless or BP. Undersized, plain based bullets always showed instability (some yaw in bullet profile on target) and some badly leaded the bore.

The most accurate loads I found were:

18gr Rel 7 or 18gr 5744
.5gr low density dacron filler
250 gr RCBS FN GC sized to 380" 14 BHN
Starline brass
R-P large rifle primer
2.50" OAL
Very light roll crimp into crimp groove

These loads always cycled and fed without problem and consistently produced 50 yard groups about .6-.7" when shooting my 1894 DOM 1894 fitted with a Lyman 21 sight.

pics of:
1894 38-55 DOM 94 w/Lyman 21
Loaded round RCBS 250 FNGC and same bullet

[oneokie]

Left to Right: BaBore 380-230, Bullshop 268gr., Lee 379-250
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/oneokie/100_1328rev.jpg

Same order loaded in Jamison brass trimmed to 2.117"
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/oneokie/100_1325rev.jpg

COAL of the BaBore 2.500"
COAL of the Bullshop boolit 2.550"
COAL of the LEE 379-250 2.550"

The BaBore and LEE were not tested for feeding when seated and crimped in the crimp groove.

Neither the BaBore or the LEE will feed through my 5 digit serial # rifle.
The Bullshop boolit feeds as slick as factory jsp ammo.

[oneokie]

One more pic:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/oneokie/100_1335rev.jpg
Details;
Starline 2.125" case-actual measured length.
LEE 379-250 boolit-modified in a drill press with a mill bastard file.
COAL as shown is 2.590"
This dummy round feeds from the magazine slick as snot on a glass door knob. Meplat was not reduced, only the nose profile was changed.
The ding on the nose/meplat junction is from using a screw driver to lever the boolit further into the case so it would clear the mag tube. oopsie, got it too long.

[405]

Interesting the nose profile seems equal to or even more cirtical than the OAL for smooth feeding. Is the feed problem a "bridging" or binding with simultaneous contact... where the edge of the nose meplat hits the upper chamber interior wall while the case contacts the lower chamber edge? I just didn't notice it messing with three different bullets with three different nose profiles when I was searching for the best bullet for my 1894s. My biggest problem was in the search for accuracy with the large bore/small chamber syndrome those guns are notorious for. The only lever guns I've seen that touchy about nose profile are the short action designs like the Marlin 94 and Win 92 where the entry from carrier into chamber is a fairly sharp angle.

[oneokie]

Yes, bridging is the problem. Only it is the ogive of the nose contacting the upper chamber wall. When the bridging occurs, the rim of the case is still rearward of the notches in the cartridge guides. The reason I mentioned altering the cartridge guides in my first post in this thread.

[405]

Got it!
Not seen much in Win 92s or 86s but I've seen a few 94s that for whatever reason (prolly from a "technician" sticking a small screwdriver in there to free up a jam or "to adjust the feeding system" :)) the guide (s) get bent. This condition may be off topic but could be related. That usually causes the carrier to jam which in turn causes a binding that is felt when the lever is operated. In some cases that problem can cause complete bind-up, with or without a cartridge in the gun. I picked up a pretty nice 1909 1894SRC with that problem a few years ago. The owner just wanted to get rid of it. Turned out to be an easy fix. I think most smiths who work on 94s are familiar with it.

cwskirm.
IIRC the original 1894s had at least four different cartridge guide styles designed specifically for each family of cartridge. They are all very different. Since you have a fairly valuable original it would probably be worth the trouble to investigate the possibility that sometime in that rifle's past it was worked on and either the guides were modified or the wrong guides were put back in. After thinking on it and "oneokie" bringing up the issue with touchy nose profiles my memory is coming back. Any good 1894 reference book should have the info about the cartridge specific guides that were installed. That may be why I was having trouble visualizing how minor changes in nose profiles could jam the feeding. It may not be nose profile after all. It could have bent, damaged or the wrong cartridge guides installed. One inexpensive reference book for the 1894 that shows exactly these specs and how to evaluate the various parts is Pirkle's book Volume 3 The Models of 1894 and 1895 . North Cape Publications for about 20.00.... well worth it! Taking the guides out of an 1894 receiver can be a pain because the screws are accessed from the inside. You'd need a small right angle screw driver or bend a small screw driver. Other than that pretty straight forward.

[WyrTwister]

OK, so I order the Starline longer cases (2.125) and load up some Lee 379-250's. I crimp at the crimp groove, and OAL is 2.53. The SAAMI shows max OAL at 2.55, so I think I am ok... until I put them in the mag tube and try to cycle them.

The round will not feed up into the chamber, as if it is too long - the top of the bullet and bottom of the brass at the nose end are rubbing (there are witness marks on the rounds). If I reduce the OAL to 2.45 they will chamber, but reluctanlty with a little bit of force on the lever.

No issues with interference from the mag tube up to the chamber itself, it seems that the OAL is just too long. If I load the 225 grain rounds, the OAL is 2.40 and they feed OK. Using Winchester brass with the Lee boolits, the rounds feed fine.

Any thoughts as to why this is occurring if I am within the SAAMI OAL spec? By the way, single loaded rounds thru the top will chamber and extract fine.

Look at the nose of the bullets that are difficult to feed / chamber . Any rifling marks on the nosr ? Paint the nose with magic narker and do it again . May need a magnifying glass to tell . The curve / shape of the nose may be different from the ammo that chambers OK .

God bless
wyr

[cwskirmisher]

Look at the nose of the bullets that are difficult to feed / chamber . Any rifling marks on the nosr ? Paint the nose with magic narker and do it again . May need a magnifying glass to tell . The curve / shape of the nose may be different from the ammo that chambers OK .

God bless
wyr

No difficulty in chambering - only in feeding.