257 Robertsx6.5mm Arisaka Rounds ?

[DoctorBill]

Edited in Long After I started this Thread....
This thread, as it turns out, became mostly about trying to use OLD Brass that
that I got with the rifle that gave me problems. Just an FYI. DoctorBill


Locally there is for sale an Arisaka converted to .257 Roberts x 6.5mm.
http://www.spokaneguntrader.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5012

I am curious enough to buy that rifle if I can reload the ammo w/o
spending more for the reloading paraphernalia than the rifle.

I need to know more.

I found out that RCBS has a mold specifically for this round.
RCBS Dies are expensive, tho.

How does one get .257 Roberts Brass - lot around or scarce ?

Uses standard 6.5 mm cast bullets ? How about the Cruise Missile ?

Is that rifle worth having or would it be an Albatross around my neck ?

DoctorBill

[rintinglen]

Depends on what you want to do with it, and how much the thing costs. As a neat, unique toy, it would be kind of fun. I think that finding 257 roberts brass might be a little iffy, but there is a lot of brass that can be modified to work. 7 & 8 MM mauser, 6x55 swede, 25-06, 270 winchester, 30-06, just about any of that mauser ilk can be sized and trimmed (and maybe reamed) to fit.
I had a 7.7 Jap that I played around a bit with, but the weird "push-me-pull-you" safety made it impractical for a hunting gun, and I had too many other guns too play with so I sold it and never looked back.

[TCLouis]

Check the barrel first.

Cleaning the barrel did not seem to be held in high regard and they were used in some pretty damp conditions. Funny the outside metal never seems to have the pitting of the Mauser under the wood.

If it is a carbine version, ask it if someone carried it off in the dark of night back about 69-71 to a new home. <LOL>


Dies may be a bit difficult, but supplies including brass should be like any other.

You can use 257 Roberts or 7X57 brass, but if you use the 7X57 you have to fireform the shoulder. One trip thru the die and it should be ready to go.


My barrel looks like cast iron Sewer pipe so I do not shoot any cast, but they seem to be shooters.

Hey if the barrel INSIDE is good, it is only 150 bucks.

Disassemble and reassemble the ammo with your powder.

Hornady used to have data for the round in their manual

[runfiverun]

you can size the body in a 7 mauser die and neck size in a 6.5 die.
i find roberts brass easier to find than 7 or 8 mauser brass.
airc hornady has data for the cartridge.
i didn't know that and started with 6.5x55 data.
if it has the original bbl the jap bbls are not standard rifling and thats why they always look shot out with rounded rifling [it's cause it is a metford type]
i also have the ugliest rifle ever made to date that was re-lined to 257 roberts and it shot so well with the open sights i had to go put a scope on it.
don't know why it does so good the shoulders get re-formed to a double radius like a weatherby, the bolt is hard to lift with an empty case in it and i have to cam it open with every shot.
but it is accurate as all get out even with 86 gr bullets at 2400 fps.
back to the 6.5 it's fairly accurate also but needs a taller front sight or i need to shoot cast through it.
it does have a long throat and i need to single shot it. for the best accuracy.
but thats cool for general cast stuff.

[HangFireW8]

With the exception of brittle cast-iron Arisaka training rifles designed to shoot blanks (notable by removable tangs), Arisaka's are very stout, very reliable, very safe, very ugly, and have a lock time measurable with a stop watch.

I have never had a problem ordering 257 Roberts brass, I have FC, Win, Rem, and Hornady headstamps.

Whether that example is a shooter or an albatross depends on the workmanship of the gunsmith and the condition of the original rifle. It'll never be worth much more than you pay for it, but it looks like all the expensive work is done.

-HF

[frkelly74]

Well, I have had fun with mine. All the important comments have been made I think, even the one about using 7mm dies to size and then 6.5 X 55 dies to size the neck down. Be very careful not to get into a loose headspace condition if you do that though. Check the empty neck sized brass for a mild crush fit before loading them up with powder and bullets. I have gotten mine to separate a head or two by not being careful enough with this. My old Hornady manual says on the intro page for the 6.5's to use the data interchangeably for 6.5x55 Swede , 6.5X57 Mauser and 6.5X257 Roberts. There was a glut of 6mm Rem brass available to me for a while so most of my brass is that headstamp. It is trimmed to 55 mm because I had that trimmer pilot available. They are worth while to shoot in my opinion. But you will not be able to buy ammo.except there is one seller on gunbroker who sells reformed brass loaded up. Eventually you can probably find dies on ebay for a reasonable price. I bid on several sets over the years and finally traded for them on ammobrasstraders. or buy some fireformed brass and neck size. Where there's a will, there's a way.

[DoctorBill]

If this Arisaka has been re-chambered for the .257 Roberts round, why would there
be this statement about such in Wikipedia ?

"Neither unmodified .257 Roberts ammunition nor the original 6.5x50mm Arisaka
ammunition are suitable for firing in rechambered Arisaka rifles."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.257_Roberts

I don't understand....I guess I am slow witted.

Or does Wikipedia have its head up its collective behind ?

Makes no sense if the rifle has been rechambered - is the slug too large in diameter (cal .257 = 6.5278mm)

What slug diameter have you folks with this rifle got ? - When you slug the barrel ?

DoctorBill

[polara426sh]

6.5 mm bore size is normally .264 groove diameter.

[DoctorBill]

Thus you could safely shoot up .257 Roberts rounds, but they'd shoot
lousy until you reloaded with a .268 Cast Bullet....?

This bullet is like the 6.5mm Carcano isn't it ?

I have the 170 gr LEE "Cruise Missile" mold and make rounds for my Carcano and Swedish Mauser with it.

Course it would depend on what the rifle bore slugged out at.

DoctorBill

[polara426sh]

I wouldn't. If the case neck didn't seal you'd have a lot of gas blowing back into the action. You'd also have lousy accuracy and lots of fouling sending a 257 bullet down a bore where it might not be touching the rifling at all.

[DoctorBill]

Hells Bells....I offered the guy $100....he will take $125 and include
a box of 257 Roberts ammo and he says he has a box of Brass (?) he'll
throw in.

I am somewhere around 50:50 about buying this rifle....

Personally, I think Arisaka's are just about THE ugliest rifle I have ever
laid eyes on.

BUT...I am intrigued.

I will leave it up to you folks.

What should I do ?

I really need another MilSurp Rifle ! An ugly one with an odd sized round.

Tell me....

DoctorBill

[TCLouis]

DocterBill

It is worthless, but in keeping with the season, buy it for 125 get the brass and ammo and send it to me wrapped with a bow and call it a Christmas present

[Mk42gunner]

Doctor Bill,

The Arisaka rifles are fugly, they even make Mosin-Nagants look good. That said they can be good shooters.

See if the guy that has it has a set ofdies to throw in the deal, if not the above suggestions of using two die sets will work. A couple of boxes ofbrass should last a long time, with cast bullet loads.

After WWII, Bishop made stocks for these. It is kind of like putting a ball gown on a pig, but they are out there.

Robert

[DoctorBill]

He said that he was never very much interested in the Arisaka to spend
much time on it.

Got interested in a different rifle.

I don't know....I really don't go for customized MilSurps.

I want all the ugly wrapped in the original stock...not some Bubba'ed
atrocity.

I don't believe it is possible to find an unmodified Arisaka w/o it costing
an arm and a leg, however.

Most were messed with like this one.

I have a friend who bought the 7.7mmx58 (Type 99) variety (sporterized) who
would like this one (type 38).

BTW - I LIKE the looks of Mosin-Nagants !

Best lookers, though, are the Lee Enfields with the long stock clear
out to the barrel tip.

History and Character. Stories to tell. The things they have witnessed....!

If only they could talk. Can you imagine ?

Well ? Should I or shouldn't I ?

DoctorBill

[mpmarty]

Arisakas are about the STRONGEST bolt action rifles ever made. Stronger even than the '17 enfields. I had a 6.5 rechambered to 257 Roberts improved and it was a heck of a shooter. Wish I still had it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

if it has the original bbl the jap bbls are not standard rifling
and thats why they always look shot out with rounded rifling [it's cause it is a metford type]

This is good to know. I have seen a few at gunshows
and Yeah, the bores always look worn.
after learning this, I can't wait to slug mine.
I bought this one at a gunshow this fall for $275,
It has a aftermarket (timney ?) trigger that is awesome.
It also came with vintage dies that "Wells" made for
Minnesota shooter's supply...they look new and Nickel plated ?
also about 40 rounds of brass fired from this rifle...I don't think it's too ugly.
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1510.jpg

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1516.jpg

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1515.jpg

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1514.jpg

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1513.jpg

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1511.jpg

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1509.jpg

[Marine Sgt 2111]

Nice looking rifle! You can also use 6mm Remington brass to make ammo with. Enjoy the dog gone thing....

[PAT303]

Arisakas are about the STRONGEST bolt action rifles ever made. Stronger even than the '17 enfields. I had a 6.5 rechambered to 257 Roberts improved and it was a heck of a shooter. Wish I still had it.

The strengh of Arisaka's is a myth,the actions are no stronger than any other mauser.Blokes like Hatcher did more harm than good IMHO. Pat

[DoctorBill]

I read somewhere (cannot remember where right now) that some
documentary about safe reloading wanted to show a Carcano exploding
from overloaded reloads.

They couldn't get the action to explode no matter how much they packed in the cartridges,
so they finally loaded C-4 into the receiver and filmed it explode then and lied
about it in the film to make their illustration.

I have read over and over that most of what you see and read are lies.

In any case - mine is bigger than yours ! Top THAT !

DoctorBill

[waksupi]

The sweet thing about a barrel that looks like it is shot out for jacketed, that means it is just broke in for cast boolits!

[Trifocals]

In the late '50's/early '60's I had a 6.5 Jap that had been sporterized and it was a real beauty. I recall that I traded a nice 1 1/2 hp Evinrude outboard motor for it. 6.5 Jap brass (boxer primed) was very expensive and hard to find. I had a local gunsmith rechamber it to 6.5/.257 Roberts. At the time, I had a great abundance of .30-06 brass that I used to make 6.5/.257 Roberts brass. It has been too many years for me to remember the particular bullet and powder I used, but it easily shot MOA groups at 100yds using a 2 1/2X Sears (Weaver) scope. I used it to bag a trophy buck antelope. As was mentioned in a previous post, they have a very strong action (ref: P. O. Ackley). Insofar as ugly, the only thing ugly is the big round knob on the rear of the bolt. It functions as a safety as well as a gas deflector. Very good thinking on the part of the designer. Weld on a decent bolt handle and it doesn't look bad at all. In retrospect, I kind of wish I had never gotten rid of the one I had. There is a local dealer who has a sporterized 6.5 Jap chambered for the 6.5 Rem. mag. Of all the modern rifles he could choose to hunt with, he prefers the Jap. I certainy would not turn my nose up at a nicely sporterized 6.5 Jap as long as it had a good barrel and was not a "beater" or one of the "last ditch" wartime production rifles.

[Safeshot]

You might want to try about 100 jacketed bullets first. Then if the rifle shoots to suit you and the bore "cleans up" go to cast bullets. It will also help in getting the bore CLEAN. Clean the bore after each 20 rounds of jacketed bullet rounds fired.

Graf & Son lists 6.5mm bullets on their web site as:
"PRVI BULLET 6.5MM (.264) 139gr SPBT 100/BAG
Our Price: $19.99
In Stock
Item #: PPB264SP139
Volume Discounts Available".

These 6.5 bullets shoot better in a 6.5/.257 Roberts that I loaded for than ANY other 6.5 mm bullet.

Ditto on using a 7mm Mauser sizing die for sizing the "body" of the case and a 6.5 mm Swedish sizing die for neck sizing (and bullet seating. (Lee dies do not cost much if you get the RGB two die sets. Be sure to adjust the dies to get proper headspace for your rifle. You can also use 6.5mm X 57mm Mauser loading dies (both sizing die and bullet seating die) IF you adjust the dies properly.

7mm Mauser brass or 257 Roberts brass seems to work very easy for resizing to the 6.5mm/.257 Roberts.

I have heard that some of the 6.5mm Japanese rifles have oversized bores. (Either made that way or just worn that way.)

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. You might just offer $105.00 for the rifle. The $20 saved would buy the first 100 jacketed bullets from Graft & Son.

[DoctorBill]

Great - now I starting to see some good arguments.....

As to your last statement, Trifocals, "...I certainly would not turn my nose up at a nicely
sporterized 6.5 Jap as long as it had a good barrel and was not a "beater" or
one of the "last ditch" wartime production rifles."

.....one of the "last ditch" wartime production rifles.

How would I know if it was a last ditch rifle ?

I just asked him for the serial number.

Have to hit the sack - it is 10:25 PM here.

Merry Christmas ! .....not "Happy Holidays" !

DoctorBill

[frkelly74]

the 6.5 type 38 predates the 7.7 type 99. I believe that there are no last ditch type 38 rifles. No worry there.

[DoctorBill]

The seller has answered my inquiry about the Serial Number.
I then called him.

"50025xx" is the serial number, he said. I'll be looking up dates,
the Jap symbol is to the right side of the SN and is two concentric
circles with three lines radiating out from the center circle.

He can't find any importer's markings.

According to
http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/japanese_markings.html
This rifle was from the Mukden Arsenal (Manchuria) circa 1931-1945

Made in CHINA (isn't everything!)

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/sreply/30258/t/Japanese-Arms-Ref-Info-READ-THIS-BEFORE-ASKING-.html

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Been thinking about this using .257 Roberts Brass in this Arisaka.

Tell me again how do I obtain the Brass ?

Have patience - I just woke up and the Coffee hasn't worked yet.

1. If I can obtain New unfired Brass cases, I use a Die to expand the neck.

2. If I obtain pre-fired .257 Roberts Brass, then I treat it as per No. 1 above.

3. I cannot use .257 Roberts unfired ammo because the slug is too small.

As to No. 3 above - I could pull the slugs (kinetically), empty out the powder,
fire the primers off, and then proceed as per No. 2 above.

If I have only this one particular Arisaka that I shoot, then I won't need to Full
Length size the Brass, just do the neck sizing....

Is that the correct approach ?

I suppose one could split the necks expanding from .257 to .264 on
unfired brass - lose some that way ? Anneal the cases first ?

This "Jimcrack" methodology bothers me somewhat....dealing with an 'explosive'
situation, as it were.....

Also - this can't be a "Last Ditch" piece of Krapp....predates that situation...OK !

Will buy the rifle on Monday.....oh well !

BTW - the owner said they fired .257 Roberts ammo thru it (zip accuracy) and had
no blowback - he figures the neck expanded too quickly to allow blowback. (?)

DoctorBill

[TCLouis]

Just buy any of the ?X57 brass (257, 6MM, 244, et. al.) and run through a set of 6.5X257 dies. If they have live primers, just remove the decapping pin.

I have formed most of mine recently from 7x57 brass because at the time I could get it easier, that requires firforming as the shoulder angle should be different. Opening neck of new brass from 257 to 6.5 may cause you to lose one or two per hundred.

The first brass I used to make ammo back in the 60ws was WWII machine gun brass and I sill have it.

Load and shoot. I would be willing to bet the box of 257 ammo he has is really correct for the rifle. Check the bullets against the muzzle of the rifle for confirmation I would still pull the bullets and reload using the primers that are in it.

That model was NEVER made in last ditch configuration, they were complete long before WWII started.

If you decide against buying it please PM me a contact for it, I would take it for the price he offered and shipping to my FFL.

JonB I like the sight on your rifle, It looks like it was hand made specifically for that gun, at least I have never seen any quite like it.

Unmolested Type 38s or carbines, I know someone that has one or two!

[runfiverun]

i made mine from 6 mm rem brass.
i necked most of my 257 up to 7 mauser.
even once fired it made the trip easily.
make sure they will chamber,or you'll have to bump the shoulder back a bit.
6.5 mauser or 6.5x 257 dies are not that hard to fine wells, and hollywood made them and i am sure lee and rcbs still does.
once you fireform you can neck size a few times then bump the shoulder again.

[frkelly74]

It is do-oable, just go one step at a time.

[Pepe Ray]

Firing a 257 Bob in a re chambered Arasaka would be like firring a 243Win in a 308Win. Chamber, doable but NOT recommended.
Also the original ammo will be too short and will separate or worse.

Don't know beans about Wikkie & don't care to,
Use your head.
Pepe Ray

[67bear]

If you buy the rifle and need a set of dies, PM me. I've got an old set of CH dies for it that I don't have a rifle for. If you're not going to buy the rifle I'd like contact info for it, after anyone else that's asked has passed.

[publius]

JohnB in Glencoe,
That is one of the nicest sporterizing jobs I've seen in a while. The mannlicher stock stays true to the original design and just "looks right".

[HangFireW8]

If this Arisaka has been re-chambered for the .257 Roberts round, why would there
be this statement about such in Wikipedia ?

"Neither unmodified .257 Roberts ammunition nor the original 6.5x50mm Arisaka
ammunition are suitable for firing in rechambered Arisaka rifles."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.257_Roberts

I don't understand....I guess I am slow witted.

Or does Wikipedia have its head up its collective behind ?


Wikipedia does have its issues, like the guy who works for BAE who keeps guard on the GCV page and insists it will only replace General Dynamics vehicles. :)

I think the warning is OK as far as it goes, if you read it carefully. Don't shoot standard 257 or standard 6.5 ammo in a wildcat 257-6.5 chamber. Fireforming necked-up brass is not "unmodified".

-HF

[frkelly74]

There you go. Info and a set of dies available. Life is good.

[madsenshooter]

I bought a set of 6.5x57 dies. Then I bought some 7x57 brass. The 6.5x57 dies will leave the shoulder tight and longer than 6.5x257, but the bolt has enough camming action to finish closing the action.

[DoctorBill]

I told the seller to meet me - I'll be buying it for $125.

When I have it, I will put pics on ParallaxBill's site and discussing the
reloading here.

Thank you all for your help and comments !

DoctorBill

What is next....? Is there a good French MilSurp ?
Trying to acquire a rifle from each country.
I have the following -
U.S.
English
Czech
Italian
Chinese
Swiss
Swedish
Romanian
now Japanese

[Trifocals]

One of the major goals of this forum, I believe, is to share info & knowlege. I just learned that the 6.5 Jap rifles were never produced as "last ditch" rifles. Years ago I had been told that they were. Thanks for the correct info. I try to be humble enough to admit when I am wrong and I certainly am not a foremost authority on everything. May each and every shot be an "X" or help keep your stew kettle full.

[Bret4207]

Bill, I have a 6.5 Roberts Arisaka much like Jons that I got for a c-note. My stock is one of those fugly Bishop Mannlichers from the early 60's complete with oak leaf carvings along the cheek piece. It wears a Redfield peep and shots everything I've tried in it under 2" at 60-70 yds. I've done zero load development, just pick up loads from old manuals. I'm using up a lot of 85 gr Sierras I bought for a disastrous 6.5-06 project. My particular example weighs in at a little less than my Winchester 94 and is a very slender rifle, very nice for a walking rifle. The safety is fine once you get used to it, maybe not quick, but it's better than many modern safeties as far as actually working. My trigger is fine too. The barrel looks worn but okay. I haven't done much cast shooting with it.

I hate to say it, but this cheap little rifle really grows on you. I hope you find the same of yours.

[67bear]

Is there a good French MilSurp[/B] ?



Yes, the Berthier.

[frkelly74]

I was just looking mine over again and I remembered that to use the safety easily you just push forward on the knurled cap with the heel of your hand and rotate your wrist clockwise to set the safety and reverse to deactivate. Easy and quiet with practice. Not so easy if you have a scope on though. It will lock up the bolt like the Mosin safety does.

[DoctorBill]

Just got home with the Arisaka.

Ran some Hoppe's No. 9 thru it - came out clean.

Here are some photos - more to come in a while.


http://www.mynetimages.com/e4b0a88438.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/e22bdcf977.jpg

I want to remove the scope mounts and have a look at the engravings
on top of the receiver.

Edited in later:
The Scope is a "C to C" 2.5x - 8x32 Nitrogen Filled, 'Permanently Centered Reticle"
made in Japan. (Not China!) mounted with Weaver Rings.

There is no Chrysanthemum - a dimple where it would be and polished and
re-Blued over - probably by the folk who re-chambered it. Looks new there.

Some Japanese pictographs - having trouble with photographing it -
have to set up some lights.
DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I removed the Scope and here is the top front of the receiver.

http://www.mynetimages.com/3c0c50b2ac.jpg

This is a close up of the Japanese Letters (pictographs) -
of course one of the scope mount holes is right in the middle of it...

http://www.mynetimages.com/1c182c24e2.jpg

Anyone have any idea what this says ? Did I show it upside-down ?

The Chrysanthemum has been ground off - if it ever had one (?).

I think there is a 'series five' mark right next to the right side of the
serial number. A "K" with a horizontal line thru it. Should be on the left side (?) !
http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/japanese_markings.html (http://www.radix.net/%7Ebbrown/japanese_markings.html)

The whole serial number is 5002581 then Mukden Arsenal (Manchuria)
symbol then the crossed out 'K'.

The bolt has the number 581 on the top of the bolt handle where it is 90° angled
and a series 26 mark (slash) followed by a "3" - same 'slash 3' on the extractor's side.

So...now I am confused because the Mukden Arsenal did not have a series 5 run...

The barrel has no front sight and is 22.75 inches from the front to
where it screws into the receiver.

DoctorBill

[HangFireW8]

You are showing it sidewise.

The top 3 horizontal lines are the number "3".

The middle Kanji used to be an "8".

Last Kanji is a Counter symbol.

Taken together, "Type 38".

[DoctorBill]

Aaaah...soooo.....

Thank you !

Some pics of the reloaded ammo - God knows how old these reloads are !

http://www.mynetimages.com/a8c62f4055.jpg

Whoever reloaded this did not size open the necks all the way down to the shoulder.

http://www.mynetimages.com/32ec2ef302.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/1ec6de7653.jpg

This Brass is primed but not neck sized to 6.5mm.

http://www.mynetimages.com/305a925083.jpg


DoctorBill

[Bret4207]

Not bad. Get thee a bullet puller, pull the bullets, toss the powder. You'll find dies on Ebay or here for not too much. CH4D also has them. 257 Roberts data will give you a start.

[frkelly74]

Let the fun begin. You will learn a lot about reloading with this rifle. I would use 6.5 x55 data for starting out. Pressures are safe and case capacity is comparable and bullet weights the same. go slow and make sure that if you form brass that the empty cases chamber with some slight resistance. You want a slight crush fit so that you don't have an excess headspace condition which will lead to head separation and a face full of smoke. Wear your glasses.

[DoctorBill]

The bullet right at the base measure .263 to .264 - so I believe they
will shoot OK.

The seller said they were purchased at a gun show and were reloaded for
a 257 Roberts x 6.5mm Japanese.

Once fired, the necks should be opened up.

I have to study all this business of using other sized dies in various
combinations.....I am confused right now.

Also - I don't like to see that corrosion !

The CH4D DIE set is $79 !
http://www.custombrassandbullets.com/ch4d1094.html
They don't elaborate as to what you get.

RCBS has one for $92 from 30-06 brass
http://www.custombrassandbullets.com/wildcatcustom.html
https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=4932&route=C09J155N166

FL for $143
https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=1521&route=C09J155N142

Did you say "CHEAP" ?

DoctorBill

[scrapcan]

DoctorBill,

Look up the thread a bit, you had an offer of a set of dies for the round.

[Bret4207]

The CH4D DIE set is $79 !
http://www.custombrassandbullets.com/ch4d1094.html
They don't elaborate as to what you get.

RCBS has one for $92 from 30-06 brass
http://www.custombrassandbullets.com/wildcatcustom.html
https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=4932&route=C09J155N166

FL for $143
https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=1521&route=C09J155N142

Did you say "CHEAP" ?

DoctorBill

Bill, IIRC I got mine off Ebay for $12.00 a couple years back. As Smokey's Mama told him- shop around!

[DoctorBill]

I don't know about other folk on this Forum, but I now have about ten (10)
different caliber Military Surplus rifles - many with oddball sized bores and my head
is swimming with calibers and bullet sizes and brass dimensions !

I get lost at times trying to keep it straight in my feeble, cigar smoked brain.

Now this 257 Bob x 6.5mm business will surely make me crazy.

I keep having to remind myself that it has been re-chambered to 257 Roberts
but is actually a 6.5mm (.264) bullet.

I have not gotten to the point of some of you guys who live, dream, eat and breath
reloading...not that that is a bad thing, you understand.

...and just about when I start getting it all straight in my head, I find
another MilSurp oddball that I just have to have !

"Life is tough, then you die".
http://www.mynetimages.com/c2f67afb6d.jpg

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Been studying the different Brass that has been recommended to use in this
rifle and photoshop'ed them together into two charts.
Maybe this will help others doing this same thing.....

http://www.mynetimages.com/e4a2154985.jpg

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

http://www.mynetimages.com/02d3abb382.jpg

Took the graphics from the Lyman Reloading handbook - 49th Ed.

I have the LEE reloading DIES for the 6.5mm Swedish - I can use that
neck expander pin.

DoctorBill

[HORNET]

DoctorBill,
Check the dimensions of the case neck section of the chamber before you go too far. Mine has to have the cases neck turned to 0.013" MAXIMUM for 0.264" jacketed boolits, 0.0115" for .268 cast boolits. It's a little snug...
BTW, I've made cases from .30-06. Not fun. LOTS of trimming, neck turning, then reaming after fire forming to get rid of the donut. My current brass is made from .257 Robts, but I've got a big bag of 6mm Rem. waiting as replacements.
It shoots better than I can see with a receiver sight anymore.

[DoctorBill]

I just now slugged the barrel.

4 lands / 4 grooves - the edges are rounded as per Metford type rifling.

.253 - .268 inch dimensions.

That makes them 0.0075 inch deep.

Is that worn or not ?

What would the "New" rifling have been, most likely ?

I have one pound of "CerroSafe"
http://www.4-dproducts.com/submenu/Cerosafe.htm
and am thinking of doing a chamber casting.....

DoctorBill

[Mk42gunner]

Not bad. Get thee a bullet puller, pull the bullets, toss the powder. You'll find dies on Ebay or here for not too much. CH4D also has them. 257 Roberts data will give you a start.

Bill,

Bret has given you some good advice. The uneven seating depths and lopsided necks are both screaming out "Pull me down." The brass and primers are probably okay, but I would definitely dump the powder; whoever loaded those rounds obviously did not take pride in their work.

Remember, it is better to be safe than sorry.

Robert

[DoctorBill]

I kinetically pulled one of the longer cartridges.

Here is what was inside -

http://www.mynetimages.com/772d15e450.jpg

the bullet measures 0.262 dia - powder has no odor.

Here is one of the shorter cartridges opened -

http://www.mynetimages.com/a129572190.jpg

Bullet measures 0.262 dia - powder stinks !

These cartridges look to be quite old.

I will empty all and fire off the Primers, too.
No reason to depend on the primers if I reload these....
The powder will be piled up on my gravel driveway and ignited.

Actually - I wonder if these Brass Cases are safe to reload ?

Side note - I am buying 67bear's CH 257 Roberts x 6.5mm Dies for $50.

DoctorBill

[CLAYPOOL]

Why not just spread the powder out all over your yard. It makes fine fertilizer. After a few rains or snows it will be no more....
CLAYPOOL

[DoctorBill]

I just had a better idea !

I have a BIG problem with Moles....they are plowing my yard up and
nothing I do seems to bother them.

Perhaps I'll mix this old decomposing smokeless powder with some
flowers of Sulfur and smoke the buggers out come Spring...

Either that or make some firecrackers for the 4th of July.

If I fertilize my lawn, I'll have to mow more often. No way.

That would cut into my lounging around on my lawn chair drinking
Beer and smoking cigars !

http://www.mynetimages.com/812e44b7ad.jpg

I actually look much better than that.

DoctorBill

[PAT303]

Well you have a 6.5 bore on a 257 Roberts case which is nothing more than a 7x57 mauser case necked to 25 calibre so wouldn't that make it a standard 6.5x57 mauser?. Pat

[DoctorBill]

Once I get the AC 257 Roberts x 6.5mm Die Set and start reloading,
what should the OAL of the cartridge be ?

The original 6.5mm Arisaka round was 2.992 inches according to LEE,
Modern Reloading, 2nd Ed., Page 305.

Would the re-chambering process likely change that dimension ?

BTW - who did those re-chambering's ? Anybody and everyone, or was
there a common re-chambering business back in the past ?

DoctorBill

[scrapcan]

It would be my suspicion that just about anyone could have done the re-chamber. In times past we as a society were much more willing and able to do this type of work ourselves. Firearms were easier to procure, tooling was easier to find, and almost every garage had some tools and some experience to use them.

coupling the lack of ammunition, components, and tooling for some of the bring backs or surplus arms of earlier times, one had to re-chamber to use them. Remember that when your rifle was likely converted, one could buy the rifle through the mail and tooling the same way.

I have seen a bunch of 8mm mauser rifles that were converted to 8mm-06 accompanied by a set of 30-06 dies that were also converted by a mere opening of the neck in sizing and seating die and a re sized expander ball, on set did not even have a different expander ball. Markings on dies were not changed other than hand written notes in or on the card board boxes.

Much different times then than now. But I am sure they would be just as amazed at what our society can do with technology today as many of us are with their ability to do things mechanically.

[Mk42gunner]

To add to what manleyjt said, I understand that the American Rifleman had a lot more technical articles in it during the 1940's and 50's.

As to cartridge length, I think either your rifling origin or your magazine length will set that.

I have one of these rifles, but have never really done anything with it. So many projects, so little time.

Robert

[frkelly74]

Well you have a 6.5 bore on a 257 Roberts case which is nothing more than a 7x57 mauser case necked to 25 calibre so wouldn't that make it a standard 6.5x57 mauser?. Pat


The 6.5X57 Mauser and the 6.5X257 Roberts are almost the same cartridge. The big difference is the angle of the shoulder. My info shows that the angle of the 6.5X57 is a little more than 16 degrees from the bore axis and the 6.5X257 Roberts shows a little more than 20 degrees, same as the 7X57 and the 257 Rob. also the diameter just ahead of the rim is slightly different.(.004 Inch) Loading data should interchange I think.

[madsenshooter]

Well you have a 6.5 bore on a 257 Roberts case which is nothing more than a 7x57 mauser case necked to 25 calibre so wouldn't that make it a standard 6.5x57 mauser?. Pat

6.5x57 is just tad longer to the shoulder. Like I said above, close enough that the bolt will close with a bit of effort. It's a worthwhile thing to check as the .257 being an early wildcat, not all reamers were the same and some of the wildcat cases had a different shoulder. Then there's the Ackley Improved versions. Who was talking about Smokey, one of my 6.5x257 rifles looks like some kids project from the 50's, it even has Smokey carved into the side of the buttstock! .268 is about normal groove diameter it seems, I run across some smaller but most I've measured are around .2675".

[HORNET]

It might be good to point out that the .257 Roberts was a wildcat for a long time and minor dimensional variations are fairly normal. When Remington made it a standard chambering, they changed the shoulder angle and length from the wildcat version. Their version was referred to as the .257 Remington Roberts for quite a while to distinguish it as different. I would expect the same kind of variations to be common with the 6.5 Roberts chambers with or without any special designation like the 6.5 Spence Special variation. Interchangeability can only be determined by trying the different versions. I strongly suspect that the chamber on mine was cut with a standard .257 Roberts reamer and NOT a special 6.5x.257 reamer due to the real tight neck.

[DoctorBill]

I kinetically emptied all 20 of those old reloads I got with the Arisaka.

OMG - about 25% of them had oily powder that caked in the cartridge !

It looked and acted oily - I had to work it out of the case with a stick.

Some more of them had that sweet/sour odor, also. Burned it all.

The back of the very old Norma Box had some faint writing saying the
charge was 36 gr of 3031 with an 89 gr bullet and Winchester primers.
No date.

I fired the primers off in the rifle into a plastic water bottle to muffle
the sound (I live in a "no Shooting' town...).

Glad I shot off the primers. Cleaned the rifle barrel - ton of black soot !

One was a squib - took two firings to go off.
about 75% were loud with flame visible, but about 25% were fairly
quiet and one made no more noise than snapping one's fingers !

About 6 out of 10 of the NORMA Re Brass cartridges had the primers back out
of the cartridge maybe 25% of the way after I fired the primers off !
Mixed headstamp - some Remington some with just the numbers '43' and '75' on the end.

So I washed the Brass in 1:4 Vinegar:water which cleaned them very nicely,
rinsed them 4x, dried them in the oven at 300° and then tumbled them in my polisher.

They look very nice now.

I will fire off the other 20 old primed and dirty 257 Bobs (not sized) that he also
included. Their primers are probably questionable too.

These rounds (loaded and unloaded) were quite dark and dirty.
Bet they are 20 years old !

DoctorBill

[HORNET]

You might want to anneal the case necks on all those cases before you start reloading them. Brass will age harden and get brittle. I've had loaded brass that I forgot about that had the case necks crack after several years on the top of the gun safe. If those primers backed out, you should probably try one of the fireforming techniques to get the headspace on the cases corrected before you get serious about shooting them much. Improve case life and all that...

[DoctorBill]

The primers had backed out when I fired the unloaded cases in my Arisaka !

I had removed the bullets and powder and wanted to remove the old primers,
so I fired them off in the rifle - that is when the primers backed out.

I wonder if I need to 'peen' the primer holes to tighten them up ?

Why would they back out like that ? Just the Norma Re cases ?

What does "Norma Re" mean ? The Re - specifically ?

http://www.mynetimages.com/e60c099f11.jpg

Who made that one case with the "?"

DoctorBill

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Once I get the AC 257 Roberts x 6.5mm Die Set and start reloading,
what should the OAL of the cartridge be ?

The original 6.5mm Arisaka round was 2.992 inches according to LEE,
Modern Reloading, 2nd Ed., Page 305.
DoctorBill

throat length can vary in any rifle, especially mil surps.
I generally measure the throat by seating the desired
bullet/boolit in a uncharged/unprimed case that
is preped with light neck tension using the rifle.
then measure the OAL, I generally back it off about .010"
Jon

[frkelly74]

The case you questioned is/was a GI 30/06 case manufactured in 1943 in Saint Louis, Mo. that one had a mercuric primer and if it wasn't washed out soon after firing is probably brittle from the action of the mercury on the brass.

[HORNET]

The primer pockets MIGHT be a little loose, but the primers backing out is not all that unusual with very low pressure loads or with firing primed cases. That nice heavy 1 pound ([smilie=1:) firing pin smacks the case forward in the chamber with considerable authority before the primer detonates. The pressure from the primer going off pushes the primer backwards and there's not enough rearward thrust generated inside the case to push the case back with it and keep it seated. That's why some people will fireform cases by seating the bullet out far enough and with enough neck tension to resist the firing pin and keep things in place until the powder has built up a little pressure. Another technique is to open the case neck up another caliber or so and then size enough to form a false shoulder to hold the headspace. Sometimes both methods are combined.

[madsenshooter]

The Norma cases that the primer backed out on may have a bit of headspace issue. I'd suggest necking them up to 30 cal or so before sizing. Then size in 6.5x257 dies, starting with the die adjusted high. Lower and size repeatedly until the bolt will just close on one. That'll make a false shoulder and eliminate the extra headspace. Don't, however repeatedly pull the case over the expander ball of your 6.5x257. In fact you could leave the expander out until you get the proper length to shoulder. After you've done this, you'll have your sizing die set for minimum headspace.

[DoctorBill]

I was talking to my OLD friend who teaches Biology at the same place
where I teach Chemistry about these boogered up Brass Cartridges.

He thinks I should just "Fire Form" them.

I guess I had a totally screwed up idea of what fire forming is !

He is two years older than me, is a retired M.D. surgeon and has seen everything and
done everything.

Been a Lead Miner in Idaho, has a pilot's license, was a bicycle racer in his Yoot,
has instructed in firearms at a local range, had his own Glamour Studio -
he worked with Peter Gowland who did a lot of Playboy's photography, knows
EVERYTHING about cameras and Photography...and fixes old 35mm cameras
as a hobby !

If he told me he had 'wet work' for the CIA, it wouldn't surprise me now !

Anyway - he says to put some load of powder (he couldn't remember
how much or what) into the cases and plug it with Rayon and fire it...!

I thought one had to have a bullet in the cartridge to achieve the necessary
pressure to fire form the brass. Not !

Is this correct - what he said ? Would 16 gr of 2400 work OK ?

DoctorBill

[TCLouis]

Fireform with bullseye and Cream of Wheat filler for great results.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

He thinks I should just "Fire Form" them.
I guess I had a totally screwed up idea of what fire forming is !
Anyway - he says to put some load of powder (he couldn't remember
how much or what) into the cases and plug it with Rayon and fire it...!
I thought one had to have a bullet in the cartridge to achieve the necessary
pressure to fire form the brass. Not !
Is this correct - what he said ? Would 16 gr of 2400 work OK ? DoctorBill

when I've fireformed brass I've always done what Hornet mentions,

"That's why some people will fireform cases by seating the bullet out far enough and with enough neck tension to resist the firing pin and keep things in place until the powder has built up a little pressure."
I use a moderate load, typically the starting load listed in a reloading manual.

[DoctorBill]

TCLouis - When I wrote that post about fireforming, I wondered if
someone would suggest Cream of Wheat !

OK - since I have quite a lot of Bullseye and 2400, how about 5 gr
of 2400 or Bullseye with COW on top and a wad of rayon to hold it in ?

I'm thinking of the Ed Harris article on Cast Bullet Basics For Military Rifles
where he recommended 5 gr of Bullseye for small game/gallery.

That is pretty far back from 16 gr of 2400 or 26 gr of RL-7 for the
heavier slugs.

The starting load for 6.5 Arisaka in the LEE manual is 32 gr of various
powders ! - way too much ?

Some thoughts anyway - am I wrong ?

I'd like to use the minimum amount of powder since it is expensive.
2400 and Bullseye burn fast and I have a lot of both...
DoctorBill

[HangFireW8]

I can confirm what Hornet said- the firing pin can cause shoulder setback in the chamber, and with no pressure, there is nothing to move the case shoulder back again.

There is another way, other than hard seating the bullet, to get the case to headspace properly before fireforming.

Neck up the case to 7mm. Then neck it back down to 6.5mm, just far enough to let it chamber. The "bump" up to 7mm will hold it in place until the first load fireforms it.

-HF

[Mk42gunner]

TCLouis - ...The starting load for 6.5 Arisaka in the LEE manual is 32 gr of various powders ! ...
DoctorBill

Ignore the suggestions for the 6.5 Jap round; your rifleis not chambered for that cartridge anymore.


Robert

[DoctorBill]

I decided to Fire Form all the Brass I have from the rifle purchase.

Primed the 40 cleaned brass cartridges and loaded 12.5 gr Bullseye followed
by 2.2 cc Cream of Wheat followed by some cotton followed by a wax plug.

(I could have used my oven dried, used Coffee Grounds - but forgot...)
It is amazing how much coffee grounds one can generate in just one week !

http://www.mynetimages.com/dbda7c844a.jpg

The Cream of Wheat says. "Best if used by MAR 19 1996" !
Do you think it is too outdated - might do something odd when fired off ?
(obviously lol)

The wax was some paraffin/Vaseline mix I made to lubricate wood screws
with when screwing wood... Soft but still stiff (!)...you know what I mean.

Now I have to get to the range and fire off 40 rounds...I'd go down some
isolated country road to do this, but bone-head Liberals out here might call the
County Sheriff on me and I don't want problems.

DoctorBill

PS - You can buy Bee's Wax real cheap - Hardware Store - Wax Toilet Ring Seal $3.
It is a lot - maybe 2 lbs of Bee's Wax - stuff it into a wide mouth screw top jar.
Very useful for a lot of things !

[Bret4207]

Bill, those toilet rings aren't usually real beeswax anymore.

[3006guns]

I've been following this thread with great interest, mostly because I collect Japanese rifles.

1.) The type 38 rifle was approved for service by the Japanese in 1905.
2.) It is an IMPROVED Mauser design. Strong, excellent gas control, fewer bolt parts.
3.) It's strength was not noted until Parker Ackley ran tests on various service rifles after WWII. Metalurgical test by an independant lab showed "elaborate heat treating" on all parts (their words)....each part treated to perform its function. This heat treating is uniform throughout their rifle production and was not done by any other country. It's a VERY stout little rifle (I have a copy of Ackley's report).
4.) That "oriental" looking, hard to operate safety actually serves three functions. It serves to hold the bolt parts in line, it is a positive palm operated safety and as mentioned, it is a gas shield to protect the shooter. The designer (Col. Arisaka) didn't want the Emporer's boys to get hurt in case of a punctured primer!
5.) If your rifle is indeed marked "Mukden", it was made in the Japanese established arsenal in Mukden, Manchuria. Same excellent quality control as the rifles made in Japan.
6.) The 6.5/.257 conversion was very common just after WWII and is a virtual duplicate of a European cartridge that escapes me right now.
7.) The "Re" on the Norma was their designation for "reloadable".
8.) With the exception of the military safety, you've got a dandy little rifle, chambered in a great cartridge. Enjoy it and just smile when others scoff at your "Jap military junk"!:)

Like most milsurp collectors I've been asked at times which ONE rifle I would choose. I'd lean toward one of my Springfield 1903's but my reply is "Under what conditions?" If I would be in harsh surroundings where I could not give the rifle the attention I normally would, I would choose either a 6.5 or 7.7 Arisaka. They're simple, rugged and usually make things fall down when you shoot them.

EDIT: WARNING..do NOT disassemble the bolt until you get proper instruction! There's a good pictorial guide on one of the milsurp collecting websites. Basically the bolt can be stripped/reassembled in a matter of seconds compared to a Mauser or Springfield, but if you reassemble it incorrectly then insert it back in the rifle it will lock up and you'll never get it out with tearing down the whole gun. Go ahead...ask me how I know this! :(

[DoctorBill]

Bret4207 -

I bought 3 Wax Toilet Rings about 5 years ago for $2 each, used one re-installing our
downstairs toilet (old one had gone bye-bye ?) and kept the other two.
They keep the sewer gas from leaking out around the toilet-Pipe junction (FYI).

Stuffed one into a wide mouth jar - melted it to all fit and been using that
wax for all sorts of lubrication jobs (wood screws go in easily).

Whatever it is now, it would serve the same functions - a soft, pliable, sealing and lubricating wax.

Would work quite well in Black Powder Revolver's cylinder wells like my 1851 Navy .36 cal.

3006guns -

A scan of Ackley's Report (or a link to it) would be nice for all to see !

I went to
http://www.surplusrifle.com/arisakatype38/index.asp
as I do for all my MilSurp Rifles and followed the destructions to disassemble that bolt.
It was clean and lubed well - unlike every other MS Rifle I have obtained !

I have 40 Fireform filled rounds to go shoot off...was going to do one
last night at New years at Midnight (everybody makes noise and shoots
firecrackers off), but I fell asleep like most old men do...

http://www.mynetimages.com/5151508042.jpg

DoctorBill

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I decided to Fire Form all the Brass I have from the rifle purchase. Primed the 40 cleaned brass cartridges and loaded 12.5 gr Bullseye followed by 2.2 cc Cream of Wheat followed by some cotton followed by a wax plug.

The wax was some paraffin/Vaseline mix I made to lubricate wood screws
with when screwing wood... Soft but still stiff (!)...you know what I mean.


my thoughts...
I am skeptical you'll get enough pressure with just a wax/vaseline plug to form the brass. I'd use a lead Boolit.

I am not am expert, I have only fireformed using starting loads with boolits or J-words for .223 rem. to ackley improved, 9 Luger to 9x18, 30-06 to 8mm. the last two needed modification and trimming before loading for fireforming.
Jon

[Bret4207]

Bret4207 -

I bought 3 Wax Toilet Rings about 5 years ago for $2 each, used one re-installing our
downstairs toilet (old one had gone bye-bye ?) and kept the other two.
They keep the sewer gas from leaking out around the toilet-Pipe junction (FYI).

Stuffed one into a wide mouth jar - melted it to all fit and been using that
wax for all sorts of lubrication jobs (wood screws go in easily).

Whatever it is now, it would serve the same functions - a soft, pliable, sealing and lubricating wax.



I know what they are and are for Bill. I just don't want you to assume its actual beeswax anymore.

[frkelly74]

12+ gr of bullseye seems like a lot of bullseye! Whenever I think of bullseye I think 6 gr max. Never tried it though except in my 45.

[DoctorBill]

frkelly74 - "12+ gr of bullseye seems like a lot of bullseye! Whenever I think of
bullseye I think 6 gr max."

I suppose it does seem like a lot. I got that amount off of a link about
fire forming rifle rounds.

"Fire a load using 15 grains of Bullseye, filler and a wax plug to form."
suggested by George Nonte in his book of handloading...

I remembered that the recommended MilSurp Rifle load by Ed Harris was 16 gr
of 2400 pistol powder - and that is with a bullet in the business end !

Here is a pdf form of the C.E. Harris article:
http://home.comcast.net/~gavinsw/guns/castbulletmilitaryrifle.pdf (http://home.comcast.net/%7Egavinsw/guns/castbulletmilitaryrifle.pdf)
Here it is as a posting which one can print out (I did !)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=151130&postcount=1

This cartridge is wide open with just COW and a wax plug in the end.

I'll be worried, also, when I fire the first one off !

If it weren't pretty strong - it wouldn't get high enough pressure of form the Brass.

So far it has been less than 20° F around these parts, so I haven't had the
gumption to go out to the range and freeze my fingers off.

If I took these wax plugged cartridges out there now, the air inside the brass
will probably shrink and suck the wax back into the cartridge !

DoctorBill

More Harris articles:
http://yarchive.net/gun/index.html

An experiment I can relate to -
http://www.mynetimages.com/8c44f74000.jpg

[DoctorBill]

This is a MAN's BBQ grill...

http://www.mynetimages.com/47e494be91.jpg

This is a San Francisco Ad about you rotten, bad hunters killing creatures....

http://www.mynetimages.com/5a43ad09ed.jpg

Nancy Pelosi Country - they vote !

DoctorBill

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Thanks for that newspaper clip from Pelosi country. It helps me understand those loons.
Jon

[DoctorBill]

257 Roberts Brass Fireforming Experiment

I got tired of waiting for decent weather to arrive, so I fired off one of
the 12.5 gr Bullseye, COW, Cotton then WAX loads into a bucket of Cat Litter
inside the house - good thing I had earmuffs on !

So...when I ejected the Brass....here is what I found....


http://www.mynetimages.com/d45b454768.jpg

THAT is really weird !

Old brittle Brass - too much Bullseye - or did the load of Cream of Wheat
just rip the neck off ?

Guess I will unload the other 39 rounds and try something else.

Thoughts:

1. I'll anneal one or two and try this again.

2. Maybe I should just throw these OLD 40 cases of Brass away.

DoctorBill

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

WOW,
I would have never guessed that would happen ?

Beeswax is real sticky and hind sight is 20/20,
So I guess I could understand why that happened
if the base of the neck was brittle,
but since you were using toilet ring wax blended with vasoline,
I wouldn't think the wax would "grip" the neck
enough to tear it off ?

I hope someone more experienced chimes,
I'd love to hear a better idea than I can come up with.

[DoctorBill]

I did that one round this morning, before I went off to lecture my class
in Chemistry.

Thought about it all morning....I hadn't found the Brass neck in the Cat
Litter.

Got back home from the College and decided maybe I ought to look
in the rifle chamber...... Guess where it is ?

A nice 'fireformed' Brass Neck sitting there in the rifle chamber !

Got it out with a stiff Brass Brush going in from the receiver end and pulling it out.

http://www.mynetimages.com/2768a48dbc.jpg

This is the whole thing

http://www.mynetimages.com/aa209f4218.jpg

The neck went from 289 to 302 diameter (that is awfully large - no ?)
Shoulder 425 to 439
Base from 464 to 468
The primer had not moved at all (looks good).

This Brass must be a gonner. This one was NORMA Re.

I'll empty them all and try annealing them.
Lord knows how old it is or what it has seen....

I have some "Tempilaq" paint that melts at 700° F to help me
keep from destroying the Brass while annealing it.

THEN...I will try this again with 6 gr Bullseye and no COW.
Maybe 2400 would be a better powder to use.
Just a small cotton plug to hold it in.

or

since I now have the 257 Roberts x 6.5mm CH Dies, I could see if
the Brass can take the neck sizing w/o splitting (after annealing it).

Don't know...might try everything ! I can't shoot... the weather is wretched.

DoctorBill

[Mk42gunner]

Doctor Bill,

I would try annealing the brass before attempting to fireform any more.

I have always had better luck fireforming with a projectile seated long, to jam into the rifling, and a moderate load than I have with fast powder and COW.

If all else fails, you could always buy a bag of new brass.

Robert

[TCLouis]

HOLY MOLEY, 12.5 BE is WAY TOO much powder.

Anneal the necks as suggested, 4-5 grains of BE, fill with COW (not corn meal), point straight up (check wind direction) fire straight up may not be socially acceptable in a subdivision the DAMN neighborhood ass ociation person might visit.

Yet another reason to live out away from folks.

[madsenshooter]

Now just look at what a simple little project can turn into. So when does the fun start? .302 is bout right for the neck.

[DoctorBill]

"Now just look at what a simple little project can turn into."

Back when I was working as a Research Biochemist for a Bayer
AG owned branch company, I always seemed short on time, tired,
pissed off and bitter.

Then I got laid off, couldn't find a job at 55 ("no age discrimination" is
a bald-faced lie!), tried teaching what I got my PhD in and have been
as happy as a clam ever since I stopped working for moronic managers
and "Bean Counters".

Now I teach Chemistry to those who will become moronic managers !

AND, I am quite glad when a little project becomes interesting !

No one is pressuring me to get it done yesterday, to write up how I plan to do it -
I can do it whenever I get the inclination or not and who gives a flying *%$* -
besides me ?

Anyway...onward - "So when does the fun start?".....NOW !

I am trying, for the first time, to anneal Brass - had purchased some
Tempilaq "temperature indicating paint" which changes when the
desired temperature is reached.

You dab it on the Brass, let it dry (dries quickly), then heat the Brass
in a torch until the paint 'melts' - then quench. Walla !

Before Heating
http://www.mynetimages.com/dbb2f9dbc3.jpg

Heating the Brass
http://www.mynetimages.com/4437111170.jpg

Quenching the Brass under the tap
http://www.mynetimages.com/6e5cc7bb71.jpg

After Heating
http://www.mynetimages.com/0175cb74cf.jpg

I had to heat the Brass a tad longer than my intuition told me to...
The Tempilaq allows you to learn or experience how long to heat the Brass.

Held the Brass with T.P. soaked in cold water to keep the base cool.
then Quenched under the tap - did this in the bathroom.
(I am doing that old Brass with the new primers still in there...)

As a guide to how long to heat - when the wet TP wrap got uncomfortably warm is
when the Tempilaq melted (changed color). Then under the cold running water.

Wish I had seen this before I did it my way...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgD5D0Wzu-c&feature=related

http://www.mynetimages.com/9ee33880fa.jpg

Off Topic - You Just Have to Love This ! Click on the image.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/DoctorBill_SCC/Miscellaneous/th_Gavel.jpg (http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/DoctorBill_SCC/Miscellaneous/?action=view&current=Gavel.mp4)


DoctorBill

Tempilaq - Midway Item No. 171855 $15. Specify Temp.

[DoctorBill]

I ran a couple of those "Annealed" cases thru 67bear's CH 257 Roberts x 6.5mm Die
that he sold me.

I took out the depriming pin as these cases are primed from when I was
going to try fireforming.

Two cases went thru the Full length die with the neck expander in the Die.

Went kinda hard, but I lubed the neck and body with 50:50 Castor Oil in Mineral Spirits.

That case lube works well and you just wipe it on with a barrel mop
screwed into a handle. Inside and out of the neck.

Having an iron based metal center, I place the mop on a magnet mounted
to my Drill Press which is next to my reloading presses.

http://www.mynetimages.com/823be0d6b5.jpg

Both old, annealed 257 Roberts cases were sized and did not split at the neck.

I will finish all of them and load them with the gas checked 170 gr LEE Cruise Missile.

Anyone ever use that 170 gr LEE Cruise Missile cast bullet in this rifle ?

If so, what powder and load did you use ?

How about this ?....Lyman Manual 45th Ed. - 6.5 Jap 160 gr Jacketed cited (p 62) Starting Loads
25 gr 3031 or 28 gr 4064 (I have both these propellants plus RL-7)
drop to 70% for the 170 gr cast, GC Cruise Missile -
thus...
18 gr 3031 -- or 18 gr RL-7 which burns a bit slower than 4064 - I have RL-7 also) or 20 gr 4064 ?

DoctorBill

PS - I am having a lot of fun screwing around with this old Brass.
Bought 50 new Winchester cases - for later.....

[DoctorBill]

I don't know if anyone gives a Big Rat's Tuckus about all this old Brass
stuff I am doing here.....

I suppose if you didn't, you wouldn't be reading it.

I sized all 39 of the remaining "old ancient" 257 Roberts Brass to
257 R x 6.5mm using the older CH Dies purchased from 67bears,
after annealing the cases.

Funny thing - about 25% of the cases needed a No. 3 Shellholder (Black Ends) while
the rest required a No. 2 Shellholder (unmarked).

What is that all about ?

http://www.mynetimages.com/82444cd7e1.jpg

Two of the cases split out of the 39 (5%) .

One was that old reformed 30-06 case and one was a NORMA !

http://www.mynetimages.com/59270cd79e.jpg

Now, I await some instructive, informative, Golden Toned comments
from the highly intelligent, sophisticated, all about town fellows on
this forum about a possible propellant load (see my previous post)
for the 170 gr Cast LEE Cruise Missile.

DoctorBill

PS - when I do this again (on unprimed Brass!) I believe I will use an
idea I saw on YouTube by 'Ammoman' for holding the Brass whilst one
is heating it. I'll use the 'El Cheapo Ritzo' method....

http://www.mynetimages.com/640b847c3b.jpg

One could hold the Brass whilst turning it in the torch flame thusly...
http://www.mynetimages.com/edb8a3d29d.jpg

Those are my lovely wife's hands holding a 30-06 case in a 15/32's socket.

...or mount the 1/4 inch sockets on a battery run drill and turn the brass slowly.

When the case has been heated properly simply invert it over a pan of water
and it falls out...

Of course...everybody knew about this already !

[Mk42gunner]

I ran a couple of those "Annealed" cases thru 67bear's CH 257 Roberts x 6.5mm Die
that he sold me....

I will finish all of them and load them with the gas checked 170 gr LEE Cruise Missile.

Anyone ever use that 170 gr LEE Cruise Missile cast bullet in this rifle ?

If so, what powder and load did you use ?

How about this ?....Lyman Manual 45th Ed. - 6.5 Jap 160 gr Jacketed cited (p 62) Starting Loads
25 gr 3031 or 28 gr 4064 (I have both these propellants plus RL-7)
drop to 70% for the 170 gr cast, GC Cruise Missile -
thus...
18 gr 3031 -- or 18 gr RL-7 which burns a bit slower than 4064 - I have RL-7 also) or 20 gr 4064 ?DoctorBill

PS - I am having a lot of fun screwing around with this old Brass.
Bought 50 new Winchester cases - for later.....

Once again,

Your rifle is no longer chambered for the 6.5 Arisaka round. I do not know enough about the 6.5x257 to give load advice, but the case is considerably larger than the original Arisaka cartridge.

Robert

[DoctorBill]

Mk42gunner - "I do not know enough about the 6.5x257 to give load advice,
but the case is considerably larger than the original Arisaka cartridge."

Yes. That is true.

The Arisaka had 2.66 cc useful volume while the 257 Roberts has 3.45 cc volume.
Data from LEE 2nd Ed.

That is 130% more volume.

The Arisaka pushed a 6.5 mm 139 gr FMJ bullet @ 2500 fps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5x50mm_Arisaka

The 257 Roberts pushed an 75 to 115 gr jacketed bullet @ 3600 to 2800 fts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.257_Roberts

It has been said here that this converted Arisaka is more like the 6.5mmx57 Mauser round.
about 3.68 cc useful capacity ? Lee again.
I can't find data for the 6.5mmx57 Mauser in any Manuals I have - so I looked up the 65mmx55 Swedish Mauser.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1104009&postcount=61

If that were the case, then the 3rd Ed. Lyman Cast Handbook calls for

143 Cast Bullet, Gas Checked - starting loads

630.............................10.0 gr
Unique...........................9.0
Green Dot......................8.0
Red Dot..........................7.0

I have Red Dot and Unique in stock here in my "shop".

But....LEE, 2nd Ed. has the following jacketed loads for the 6.5mmx55 Swedish
for a 160 gr Jacketed Bullet....

For powder I have in my shop -

A-XMR-4064........................35.1 gr
Reloder 15...........................32.8
Reloder 7.............................23.0

If I drop to 70 or 80% of the above loads for a 170 gr GC, Cast Bullet, I should be ok (yes?).

In any case, I ought to be able to use around 12 gr of 2400 following the
Ed Harris loads in his article.

I also have Trail Boss where I just fill the case and shoot-em-up ! Neat stuff.

If I keep to the above loads, I don't believe I will blow my Arisaka up.

I have a Chronometer and can check velocities which I would like to keep below
about 1600 fps.

I want to shoot CAST with light loads to keep my bad shoulder from getting worse.
Thus, I figure I'll probably need a filler.
I have "Puff-Lon", oven Dried Coffee Grounds, TP, and Cotton for use with slower powders.
Cream of Wheat tends to harden into a clump (needs drying?)

Have I made any stoopid ASSumptions in the above diatribe ?

I have to start somewhere and quit fooling around with the Brass !

DoctorBill

[HangFireW8]

Mk42gunner - "I do not know enough about the 6.5x257 to give load advice,
but the case is considerably larger than the original Arisaka cartridge."

Yes. That is true.

The Arisaka had 2.66 cc useful volume while the 257 Roberts has 3.45 cc volume.
Data from LEE 2nd Ed.

That is 130% more volume.


Sorry, but no, it's not 130% more volume. It's about 130% of the volume, or about 30% more volume.

-HF
Member, SFTPOPSA, Society for the Prevention of Percent Sign Abuse.

[DoctorBill]

Picky, picky, picky.....

OK....it is 130% of the Jap case volume.

I'll leave out the word "more".

But generally 100% means the same quantity.

I guess no one has loaded this 257 Roberts x 6.5mm with anything near the
170 gr LEE cast bullet.

I thought I would have been inundated with loading data at this point !

DoctorBill

[HangFireW8]

I thought I would have been inundated with loading data at this point !


You were, you just didn't notice it. :grin:

My Hornady 4th edition has a complete set of loads for jacketed bullets in 6.5x57mm from 100 up to 160 grains. This cartridge may have been moved to their supplementary volume in more recent editions.

Keep in mind you can call Hornady or Sierra and ask them for any load- Sierra will be happy to read any of their competitor's load manuals to you. I realize most of this is for jacketed bullets, but there is plenty out there to get you started.

-HF

[DoctorBill]

Well that is the whole thing, isn't it ?

".....you just didn't notice it."

As one scientist said (I cannot remember who), "Everything, all of nature's
secrets and laws, are right there in front of your face for all to see.
Nothing is hidden - it is all there to be seen, you just have to look."

I guess I am not doing a very good job as a so called "scientist".
I get an "F" for the day !

You have me looking in all my Manuals now for 6.5mmx57 (Mauser).
I recall now that others had mentioned this round...

I have lots of data for 6.5mmx52, 54, and 55mm.

Nothing that I have has any 6.5mmx57 reloading data.

BUT - I have the SPEER Reloading Manual for Wildcat Cartridges"
No. 4 Edition.....1959.

..and it has data for the 6.5mm x 257 Roberts ! Holy Makeral !

I never considered that to be a "Wildcat Cartridge" !

It has data for the 87, 120 and 140 gr Speer Bullets
in 3031, 4064, 4198, 4320, 4350, 4831, 4895, HV-2, H380, H570 powders.

The rounds were fired in an M98 with a 24" barrel with Remington cases.

I do have 3031, 4064, 4198, and 4320.

The 4320, 4064 and the 3031 were recommended for the 140 gr.

I want to load with my box of LEE Cast GC'd 170 gr Cruise Missiles that
I have ready to go.

Has anyone reading this ever done that cast bullet in this round ?

Give me some suggestions.
How about 80% of the above min loads for 140 gr to start - with the 170 gr CM ?
Am I on the right track ?

I am going to try Trail Boss, that is for sure - anything else ?

DoctorBill

[Mk42gunner]

Doctor Bill,

Sorry for sounding snotty in my last post. My reason was to get your attention, since you had referenced the 6.5 Arisaka load data a couple of times. We need to be looking at the right data, not just any data.

I have looked for a copy of the Wildcat Cartridge manual at every gunshow I have been to since I heard about it, with no luck.

Robert

[DoctorBill]

I didn't think you sounded snotty, Mk42gunner.

I came upon the Wildcat Cartridge Manual from advertising on Craig's List
for "Wanted - Any and All Reloading Manuals".

I got quite a few responses - mostly from young guys who wanted to sell their
Dad's or Grandfather's Reloading 'stuff'.

The kids weren't into it, didn't know what it was, didn't care.....SAD.

So I now have several quite older Reloading and Shooting Manuals and some old CATALOGS.
Many smell musty from being in a box in the basement for a long time.

As you said - I looked right at it, but didn't "see" it....

If you are looking for any particular Wildcat data, I can scan it and PM
you with it.

I have a thread about that Wildcat Manual on this Forum.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1053635&postcount=26

I listed the 'Table of Contents'.

Several people have asked for particular Wildcat data - I sent it to them.

DoctorBill

PS - Now with this shooting of the Senator and others in Arizona, watch all the
'Gun Control' freaks come out of the woodwork...especially the "American Media" !
and all the Hollywood hypocrites who make their living as 'Shoot-Em-Up' action stars,
but turn around and support gun control.

Has the world always been this crazy ? What is next ?

http://www.pinkpistols.org/antigun.html

[HangFireW8]

I didn't think you sounded snotty, Mk42gunner.

I came upon the Wildcat Cartridge Manual from advertising on Craig's List
for "Wanted - Any and All Reloading Manuals".

I got quite a few responses - mostly from young guys who wanted to sell their
Dad's or Grandfather's Reloading 'stuff'.

The kids weren't into it, didn't know what it was, didn't care.....SAD.

As young people, we all have done stuff that we regret later. Some of those young men will regret what they did later. By buying those manuals, you are helping them learn a lesson that will serve them well once they are old enough to know better.

So, in a way, you are doing them a favor!

I'll see if I can scan some loads for you. Give me a while, I haven't had the scanner set up in a dog's age.

In the mean time, don't be afraid to call Sierra's or Hornady's help line.

-HF

[HangFireW8]

DoctorBill,

Please check your messages.

-HF

[frkelly74]

The world is definitely getting crazier.

[scrapcan]

A reprint of the spper 1959 manual is available from cornell publications.

Abby does great work. Just be careful as there are a lot of good reprints in her stock.

http://www.cornellpubs.com/index.php

here is the link to reloading manuals

http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/reloading-catalogs/

[DoctorBill]

The world is definitely getting crazier.

Have you folks been watching the Media about Conservative People ?

MSNBC (never watch it normally) is freaking out in an obviously orchestrated
performance - what Hypocrites and Liars.

I wonder who owns these major media outlets ?

The Left wants to squash our free speech - but just for Conservatives !

Thank God the November elections changed the composition of the House
and Senate. Who knows what travesties would have been passed in the
last couple of days by the previous regime.

I cannot believe what I am hearing and seeing !

Rabid. They want total control of everything. Like in Russia just before
the Bolshevik Revolution....

DoctorBill

[cowboybart]

Old thread, but I wanted to throw my $.02 in.
Using 6mm Rem brass it only lasted 2 firing before getting close to having head separation. Because I own a 257 and a 7x57 I didn't want to use that brass. Going to 8x57, the headspace spec is longer so the brass is a bit tighter, and it kept the cases from stretching.
Set your die up to barely tap the shoulder if your headspace is on the long side.
Mine threw patterns with 120 gr bullets but with 140gr Core-Lokt 3 shots went into 5/8" with a 19" military barrel!

[runfiverun]

anybody looking at one of these it is not that hard to find jacketed data for.
hornady has it right in their manual.
compare that data to the 6.5X55 to get cast data.