.38 Wienies

[Poohgyrr]

[smilie=1: (edited: this is meant as sort of a fun thread, although some guys do worry too much about "more power")

Over on the S&W Forum, in a recent thread, one of the guys compared the original .357 & 38/44 ballistics to the current .357 ammo.

Then he told me I was only shooting 38/44's out of my favoristest K frame. Being a macho chest beating type of guy at times, I was mildly peeved for a minute. :(

But my next range trip was loads of fun and I got over it quick. :Fire:

So, with the two batches I have of 3/4 power handloads (current loadbooks) (one in Special brass, and one in .357 Magnum! brass), should I really call these .38 Wienies??

And when I load and shoot rounds from Catshooter's group buy, will I regain my status of real .357 Magnum Shooter??

:mrgreen:

[pjh421]

Yep. That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.

Paul

[44man]

Well, I put you in a different class! I believe that accuracy is king and never look for how fast a gun can shoot, never found a deer that could laugh at my lighter load after I shot it. Now I am not talking whimp loads, just the most accurate. It sounds like those are your thoughts too.
I know too many guys that push the guns to their limits and can't hit a thing.

[versifier]

It has long been my opinion that a number of kabooms in older used guns are caused by the more is better velocity vultures loading and shooting proof loads and then selling the gun and moving on to stress out another. I cannot prove it, of course, but I do believe it. One can only guess at structural changes in the lattice of the steel alloy when overstressed repeatedly. I have seen a rifle (an older 50's vintage W94) blow firing a hand weighed and funnel dropped charge in the warm, but not hot range, no barrel obstruction, no apparent explanation. The rifle was bought used from the estate of an avid loader/shooter/hunter with a collection of a dozen or more big mag wildcat bolt rifles (m70's & m700's) most of which had very severe throat erosion. It was obvious he liked to push the pressure limits with his other rifles. Fortunately, no one was hurt, and the cause can only be speculated, but the inference is clear to me.

I load for accuracy, and I do not concern myself with velocity except to check what the finished load does so I can figure bullet drop at longer ranges. No complaints ever heard from the deer in our freezers, either. (I load for quite a few other hunters.) If you put the bullet/boolit where it's supposed to go, you have done what you need to do. You can gutshoot with a .50BMG and have a hell of a marathon on your hands as easily as you can with a .243 or a .44mag. Poor shooting comes from lack of practice, not lack of velocity.

Call your loads fun, and accurate, and heed ye not the yammerings of the foolish.

[Poohgyrr]

Thanks!!

But I just realized I might need to say the 38/44 vs .357 comparison was meant in a fun way, not as any kind of bad thing... And while I don't remember exactly who was making the comparisons, he is one of the regulaars who has always struck me as a good guy, and who also knows a lot more than I do about these things. I just want to clearup any misunderstandings I caused.

And it does help if I hit the target, more fun too.. ;)

[Buckshot]

...............I have a M14-4 S&W that I am loathe to shoot anything hotter then regular old 38 Special type loads out of. And mostly mild target loads at that. Why you ask :-). Well for one reason and I guess the main reason is that they're not making them anymore. Not like THIS one I don't believe. So I'm afraid to put any undue wear and tear on it.

Then like Versifier and 44man said, accuracy is the thing and if I'd have been introduced to accuracy of the level this pistol can produce (yes, with me holding it) I might have had a higher regard for handguns much earlier in my career then I had!

..............Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

I'm not one to do much velocity experimentation for its own sake, and when I do--I use a platform that can withstand it with a wide safety margin. In the 357 Magnum, that's the Ruger BisHawk x 7.5" at my house. I can run the #358156 to 1500 FPS in this revolver, and things stay accurate from 800-1500 FPS with that boolit. This is the level of the 1930's Douglas Wesson loads in the N-frame S&W's, I believe--but I wouldn't fire them in any S&W, just the same. These days, I'm more likely to add boolit weight to a load than velocity to boost performance.

Versifier brings up good rationale for his beliefs regarding kB's in firearms. It's like comparing a NASCAR racing engine to the powerplant in your family car or pickup. Moderate use and good care allows us to run our vehicles for upwards of 150K miles, while it's a crapshoot if that NASCAR engine stays together for 500 miles of racing.

[boogerred]

looks like we are all rowing in synch on this. velocity is interesting and the results can be useful for load development. but i dont need it. the loads i regularly shoot are all "in the book" and do fine for what i do. im not rich and my guns will have to last a while. i dont need to wear them out or blow them up trying to go faster than you. i guess some guys like driving in the passing lane but ill stay in the right lane.

[Paul B]

Interesting thread. I shoot quite a bit of .38 Spl. but keep my loads to the target wadcutter level with either 3.0 gr. of Bullseye or 3.1 gr. of W-231 and 148 gr. wadcutters. I do have a transitional model S&W 38/44 Outdoorsman and I stick to target loads even in that very strong revolver. (No, it ain't for sale at any price.)
If I want .357 mag. power, I'll use my M28.
A few years back, I got a smokin' deal on a case of Winchester wadcutter target loads. What I did find surprising is my home cast wadcutters and 3.1 gr. of W-231 outshoots that high priced factory stuff.
After deer and elk season are over an done with, I'll have to settle down and get some serious casting done for both rifle and handgun. It's been way too hot to cast out in my shed, even with the A/C going full blast.
Paul B.

[Leftoverdj]

I long since decided that last 100 fps is almost never worth what what you have to do to get it, in any firearm, much less in .38 Specials.

[Uncle R.]

I long since decided that last 100 fps is almost never worth what what you have to do to get it, in any firearm, much less in .38 Specials.

Yep - That's really the key. There are times when you want everything you can get - but most of the time lighter loads are perfectly adequate, and often more accurate as well. They'll also give much longer case and barrel life, and be more pleasant to shoot. The beauty of handloading is that you can match the load to the gun and the game.
Back in my sillywet days I settled on shooting production class with a 10" .357 Contender. Very accurate, pleasant to shoot - but it didn't have a whole lot of extra whomp for the rams. I routinely used a very stiff load in that Contender for 200 meter work and almost never "dinged" a ram. The T/C shrugged off those rounds with ease - but I wouldn't think of using that load in a K frame. I doubt that it would kaboom - but it likely would gradually pound the gun into junk.
For a Saturday afternoon at the range lighter loads are more fun and less wearing to the gun and the shooter. For average deer hunting around here with a .270 or .308 95% loads are perfect and neither you or the deer would ever know the difference. However, If I HAD to go after elk or moose with a .308 I'd want everything I could get, and I'd load a premium j-bullet like a Nosler right to the firewall. (Better still to buy a bigger gun and load it to 95%) :-D Match the load to the gun and the game.

[LAH]

I long since decided that last 100 fps is almost never worth what what you have to do to get it, in any firearm, much less in .38 Specials.

Creeker says: AMEN

[Paul B]

While I'm thinking about it, the old 38/44 S&W in the Outdoorsman and Heavy Duty revolvers shot a 158 gr. bullet to a niminal 1150 FPS while the oginal .357 mag. shot a bullet of the same weight to nominally 1500 FPS. I have one of those lovely old 38/44 Outdoorsman handguns, a transitional model from about 1946-7. It has the same adjustable rear sight as current S&W revolvers but still has the older very smooth long action. I prefer that long action BTW. I only shoot wadcutter target loads from the 38/44 nowadays, but the one I had years ago was loaded balls to the wall with a 158 gr. cast bullet. it was on the Fourth of July while at a church camp out that I had to use it to kill a 250 pound Black Bear that wandered into the camp and decided one of the young ladies was dinner. Two shots behind the ear did a number on the bear and that took care of that. Turned out, it was that "time of the month" for the woman. That'll attract a bear every time. Sadly, I had to sell that fine old pistol while being laid off due to lack of work.
I found the one I have now at a gun show and when I saw it, I bought it without even quibbling on the price. I figure light loads forever i that fine old gun. If I want to shoot skit and git loads, I'll use my S&W 28 or 27.
Speaking of the 28 and 27 and .357 mags in general, a while back while at the range, a fellow was shooting one of those taurus five shooter in .357 Mag. he was cussin' up a storm hollering that his bubby's relaods were way too hot and threw the whole box into the brass bucket. I asked him if I could have them to break down for the components and he said to go ahead. When I got home, I looked at the box and there was no load data anywhere. I carefully looked each round over with a magnifying glass and there were no signs of that brass ever having gone through a sizing die. None at all. The design of the ammo box was early 1960s. My conclusion was this was a box of proper .357 mag. factory ammo from about 1960 and was the full power stuff before the factories wimped the load out because they were tearing up the Model 19 and 66 S&Ws. Yup! They're the type that were swaged from lead that had the reputation of leading the barrel up badly. I suppose I ought to just break then down, but maybe, one day I'll just shoot them up and get the lead out afterwards.
The old 38/44 was probably in the same power range, or mayube just a bit hotter than current Plus P ammo. It might have even been right up there to Plus P Plus ammo.
That old Outdoorsman? hell, they just don't make them like that anymore.
Paul B.

[pjh421]

Buckshot, et. al.:

I too have a 14-4, 8 3/8"...wait a minute, I'm gettin' misty. I love that gun. I saw it on AuctionArms and went on a mission. It became mine. It will never see anything stronger than .38 wadcutter type stuff. I have bigger guns for when I need to feel manly.

Paul