Gas Check making tool? Veral Smith is tooling up if there is enough interest

[omgb]

Below is a quote from Veral Smith's site concening plans for making a Freecheck type tool. We've (we here,not me an Veral) been talking about it for some time and now that Hornady has discontinued the 338 GCs this might be an opportune moment for just such a device to come on the market.



" I have been debating the manufacture of a gas check maker which mounts in and is powered by a standard reloading press and uses the new 24 oz beer cans for material. (They are thicker than the smaller cans, with work fine but are a bit dainty.)

To make checks with this tool, strips which are cut from the side metal from the cans, is fed through a slot, the checks being punched out and formed in one stroke of the press. The checks are colledted in the hollow punch, which is removed from the press just as you'd remove a sized cartridge case, and the checks poured out into a container. The prototype which I made, produces close to 1000 in an hour after the strips are cut and ready, and the tube of this unit hold about 10 checks. This means, remove and dump the checks that often. I may be able to up capacity of the tube some.

Ideally the customer would purchase a mold specivically for these checks. This means the base band would be cut about .004 smaller than sizer diameter, so hard bullets can be checked without shearing the checks. Or the same checks will fit any plainbase mold of the caliber and will size on without shearing if sizing is done while bullet hardness is below about 16 bhn. This means those using the most popular alloy today, whcih is water quenched wheel weights, would have to remove bullets from the water, blow them dry and size within a maximum time of about 2 to 3 hours after casting, or any time shorter. Also the checks will not give full performance if an existing plain base mold has a base band which is wider the the checks will cover. Performance increase will be very worthwile, but the base band must be a pecise length to get optimum performance the these thin aluminum checks, with a grease groove forward of the check to collect lead scrapings.

If interested in such a tool, please email me at LBTisAccuracy@Imbris.net (LBTisAccuracy@Imbris.net). I expect the price will have to be at least $15 per tool, which will high quality heat treated tool steel, capable of very long life. And I would only produce the most popular calibers, at first at least. 38 44 45 The 45 would work with rifle and pistol, but may require two extra parts, which would raise the price some. I will experiment with feeding multiple layers of metal through to see if it will produce stacked checks which will fit standard gas check shanks. Performance has already been proven with the free check makers, but production with my tool is the concern here. If you email me, I'll respond after perhaps three weeks with an answer of whether demand warants production.

I've sat on this idea for approximately 20 years, my friends. I was already busy then, and not really excited about the thin aluminum stock. Business is slack enough now to consider it, and the new, and very abundant 24 oz cans make the concept quite attractive."

[felix]

Larry, the Gator, makes 338s. ... felix

[454PB]

What a great idea, and I now have a reason to buy those huge beers!

[PatMarlin]

I say go Veral... :drinks:

I'll buy 4 or 5.. :Fire:

[omgb]

Be sure you email him and tell him so.

[PatMarlin]

Already did it.. :castmine: :coffee: :Fire: :drinks:

[Dutch4122]

Veral has updated his post at Greybeard's about this tool advising that there was a typo concerning the price. Says he accidentally left out a "0."

Looks like the cost will be $150 per tool. Just thought I'd let you guys know about the update.

[SharpsShooter]

I thought $15 was too good to be true. I would not mind having one to tinker with, but $150 is too much for a tinkering tool.

SS

[Four Fingers of Death]

$15 sounded a bit good to be true, If they were being turned out by the squillions in China, $15 would be possible, but not anywhere near where we live.
The way I figure it, at $US150, that would be break even at 3500 checks in Autralia still feasible. Mick.

PS, I forgot about postage, international money order, yarda, yarda, yarda, make that 4500 checks!

[Patrick L]

Oops, I already emailed Veral and said I'd be inteested.

Yeah, I too would probably pass at $150. At least as long as .30 cal checks are available and reasonably priced. Even the Hornady's are affordable for the 1000 or so I shoot a year, and the Gator Check GBs are even better yet. There's also a bit to be said for just opening the box and going to work.

On the other hand, If the tool could be had for the $75 range, I might consider it. Or if you shoot many thousands of GC bullets, or shoot odd or hard to find sizes, then I'd say its worth it

[felix]

Sounds good on paper, but quality control of beer can material has a lot to be desired. Both in terms of chemistry and of thickness. Not for me in the least. ... felix

[Willbird]

Felix, with how the can machines work, and the cost of the tooling they use (I used to make it) I would expect the cans to be very uniform, and the material to be very very consistant, and very very good.

It is am amazing process really, I have seen video of it.

Bill

[swampmaster]

[QUOTE=Patrick L;113425]Oops, I already emailed Veral and said I'd be inteested.

Yeah, I too would probably pass at $150. At least as long as .30 cal checks are available and reasonably priced. Even the Hornady's are affordable for the 1000 or so I shoot a year, and the Gator Check GBs are even better yet. There's also a bit to be said for just opening the box and going to work.

I agree I think I will pass also at the 150.00 mark I am not sure if it would even be worth it in the 50.00 to 75.00 mark for me atleast

[Red River Rick]

I strongly agree with Willbird. The manufacturing process of drawn cans is highly soficticated and requires expensive high quality tooling. As far as cheap inferior material, no way, nothing but the best draw grade aluminum, yet strong enough to withstand all the internal pressures.

The $150 price range would be reasonable, considering material costs (A2 or D2 tool steel), machining and heat-treating. A two die set would work fine, one for blanking and the other for drawing. My concern would be the lack of proper alignment in presses with sloppy or loose threads. This would definately effect the performance of the die.

Punch and die clearance normally would be around 10% of material thickness, so if the material is 0.015" then the punch would be 0.003" smaller then the hole in the blanking die. Anything smaller will cause burring on the blank. So unless the threads in the press and the ram are aligned within these tolerances, there may be problems.

RRR

[Bent Ramrod]

I agree that $150 would be a reasonable price, since not a lot of them will be made and the manufacturer has to amortize his costs. But $150 will still buy a lot of gas checks, especially if you wait for sales and generally bargain hunt.

When the Freechek Tool was offered 20+ years ago there was the same disparity between the cost of the tool and the price of the commercial gas checks and I passed on it then, too. I've never seen a used one at any gun show I've attended, so I can't imagine many were sold.

Too bad Lee doesn't offer such a tool. That outfit seems to have a genius for bringing prices down and making its money on the enhanced sales volume. They're into aluminum forming already; it ought to be a walk in the park for them.

[44man]

I have doubts about thin aluminum for what I consider a drive band. I have always wondered about the copper sheet like they make gutters and roofing out of.
It would seem that the boolit base would have to be larger to hold a thinner check, what would hold the aluminum on the base? I see them shedding in flight.

[Junior1942]

44man, what's that little dohicky on the front end of your pistol scope? What's the red thingy on the grip frame? Are both part of a lazer sight?

[45 2.1]

I have doubts about thin aluminum for what I consider a drive band. I have always wondered about the copper sheet like they make gutters and roofing out of.
It would seem that the boolit base would have to be larger to hold a thinner check, what would hold the aluminum on the base? I see them shedding in flight.

Aluminum works fine (on PB boolits or a multiple layered GC on normal GC boolits) as a swaged on GC, even at 2200 fps. You really don't want all that hard an alloy, except when you put them on right after casting, as they will tear the aluminum check when swageing it on in the lubrisizer. You can get away with softer alloy easily when using them and get much better accuracy and performance.

[500bfrman]

Larry, the Gator, makes 338s. ... felix


and at the rate we're going we could get some of those in 2020?

[Ed K]

It would seem that the boolit base would have to be larger to hold a thinner check, what would hold the aluminum on the base? I see them shedding in flight.

Note that Veral stated in his quoted comments:

"Ideally the customer would purchase a mold specivically for these checks."

That's not good. I would think that a significant part of the cost recovery of the tools would be cutting checks for all of the molds you own that use a standard check. If they only fit on all new molds bought from LBT :roll:

[felix]

Do I hear a 25K count from you to start things off? If so, we might consider the 500-512 calibers next. ... felix

[felix]

Consider that "professional" gas check dies (carbide) cost 600 bucks to fine tune for ONE SPECIFIC ALLOY! ... felix

[44man]

Junior, That scope was too dark to see either the crosshairs or a deer in the morning or evening. A friend gave me the laser and I sighted it in and wanted to try it on a deer but it got destroyed from recoil. I changed out to an Ultra Dot and now it works great. I have to change my avitar when I take a new picture.
The laser was fun while it lasted!

[Poohgyrr]

but quality control of beer can material has a lot to be desired. felix


I, for one, am willing to make a personal sacrifice. I will buy some beer on the way home. At least two different brands of six packs. And conduct extensive testing tonight.


:drinks:

[castalott]

I've posted all this before...so I won't bore you with it...But you can make your own checks. And freechecks would be even easier...

[Buckshot]

A two die set would work fine, one for blanking and the other for drawing. My concern would be the lack of proper alignment in presses with sloppy or loose threads. This would definately effect the performance of the die. So unless the threads in the press and the ram are aligned within these tolerances, there may be problems.

RRR

..............To eliminate loose threads or worn rams, and even baring those the best way to go would be to have the punch retained in the die body. All the ram would do would be to push it up with no mechanical connection. That way the punch and die body remain in alignment regardless. I would hope that that is the way Verel is designing it.

...............Buckshot

[500bfrman]

Do I hear a 25K count from you to start things off? If so, we might consider the 500-512 calibers next. ... felix

I assume that's directed at me? 25K would be close to a grand. So I'm thinking no on that one. I would be willing to go 10K at least though.

[PatMarlin]

I've posted all this before...so I won't bore you with it...But you can make your own checks. And freechecks would be even easier...

That's Woody's Freecheck Tool.

I had pics of the orginal freecheck tool, but can't find it.

[carpetman]

spale checken and phroof reeding are a couple concepts Veral Smith has never heard of. I think he does better at taxes than he does spelling. I thought the $15 did sound too good to be true and I did wonder how it could be done at that price. $150 would be too steep for me. Back before I lost my taste for beer it would have been a great idea to have need to check the consistency of all the different cans.

[ron brooks]

Note that Veral stated in his quoted comments:

"Ideally the customer would purchase a mold specivically for these checks."

That's not good. I would think that a significant part of the cost recovery of the tools would be cutting checks for all of the molds you own that use a standard check. If they only fit on all new molds bought from LBT :roll:

And that was the killer for me. $150.00, okay I shoot enough 30 caliber to make this be worth really thinking about, but with the special molds? Nay. It just doesn't make sense , for me. YMMV.

Ron