AK variants - what to look for?

[JIMinPHX]

The price of AK pattern rifles has been really dropping lately & Christmas is just around the corner, so I was wondering...

What should you look for in an AK when buying one? Are certain features desirable? Are there certain ones to stay away from? Do certain types not work well?

The Romanian ones look to have some of the most attractive prices. Is there anything wrong with them?

I'm thinking about using this mostly for a truck gun & plinking. It might see some use as cabin defense against critters, but that's not likely to happen very often. I really just want to get one to mess around with it & learn how they work.

I've never used one of these things before, so I really know nothing about them. Any info is appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim

[waksupi]

Jim, I helped work over a few thousand of the Romanians last year. I think they are a serviceable rifle, and easily tuned if they aren't when you get them. I would pull the gas tube and check for any remaining blueing salts, as they weren't all that good about boiling them out. Pepsi or similar is a good cleaner, followed by water, and oil.

[JIMinPHX]

Thank you Waksupi for that first hand insight. That's a whole lot more information than I had to work with before.

I'm a little surprised to only see one response on this. I realize that the AK is not the classic old shooting iron of choice among the rank & file on this board, but I figured that at least a few more people would chime in with some opinions.

Oh well,
live & learn.

Thanks again Waksupi,
Jim

[steve in kc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=nHyixxEat6c

holy moly. I JUST watched this video before I read your post. Weird.

Eric is the MAN. Veteran, Bullet Caster, Gunsmith... Well, just check out his Youtube channel...you'll be hooked.

[JIMinPHX]

Thanks for the video link. That was a good first education for newbie like me.

[MtGun44]

Underfolder is a wobbly ***, side folder is much more solid if you want a compact rifle. Frankly, I have
never gotten serious about loading for an AK, but even with Prvi Partisan brass milsurp ammo,
(which I presume to be better quality than steel Rooskie stuff - I may be wrong, same groups)
I can't get better that 4-6" groups at 100. Maybe using quality jbullets or boolits may help,
but I think that Col Cooper captured the most information about the AK in the fewest words with
"The People's bullet hose".

Bill

[Phat Man Mike]

those are you get what you pay for!! I own a few of them.. if your looking to put 5 shot's in a dime at a 150 yards good luck! :killingpc:killingpc just clean it really good when you buy it and have fun shooting it! [smilie=l:

[waksupi]

I can't get better that 4-6" groups at 100. Maybe using quality jbullets or boolits may help,
but I think that Col Cooper captured the most information about the AK in the fewest words with
"The People's bullet hose".

Bill

They are a battle tool, not a target gun. If you get one that shoots under 3", you have a real tack driver!

[2 dogs]

I know about AKs. Shot them for years. Took me a long time to realize that it wasnt a piece of junk just to burn cheap ammo but a superior battle rifle. My go to guns in my house are AKs. I like the Arsenal guns the best. I do not like the ones Century has put out. Most of the stamped guns will last just as long as the milled ones and they are lighter to boot. We did not realize this fact when they were first available and just assumed the milled guns were better. As for folders, the side folders are far superior to the underfolders and wire folders. You see alot of AKs available in kits, here companys like Rifle Dynamics and Red Jacket get the nod, look at Warriortalk.com GetofftheX.com and the AKforum for lots and lots of information.

[bkbville]

The Romanian models you mention (WASR's) are terrific.

Most any AK you get today will have a US receiver, US barrel, and US fire control group (typically the TAPCO) in order to meet US 922r requirements.

Saiga's (which are new and russian) are "sporters" - so they don't have a pistol grip because some idiot in BATF determined pistol grips are not for hunting. Many if not most Saiga owners convert these back to pistol grip configurations (adjusting for 922r)

The Czech VZ is an excellent AK - but iirc uses different mags and technically isn't exactly an AK in configuration.

[Shiloh]

I can't get better that 4-6" groups at 100. Maybe using quality jbullets or boolits may help,

Bill

And you never will. A bit of trigger work will help some, but it is a cheap, stamped, loose tolerance service weapon. If you want target accuracy from a battle rifle, buy an AR-15 for several hundred dollars more. You could build a tack driver for about $800.

Shiloh

[82nd airborne]

The tapco trigger is better than a factory AR trigger IMO.

[JIMinPHX]

Well, I had my first hands-on experience with one of those things the other day. They're pretty darn simple looking inside. Loose & reliable seem to be the buzz words that come to mind. The things are so darn simple looking that it almost takes the challenge out of figuring them out. That kind of kills a lot of the fun of it for me. They are still something new & different to learn & mess with. There's got to be something inside there that needs to be tweaked & adjusted or improved in some way. If I look long enough, I've got to be able to find something.

Thanks to everyone that responded. The information was appreciated!

[Ole]

I probably would have bought an AK by now but the ergos on them just don't work for me.

The stocks are usually too short and the handle is wrong for my arm length & hand.

Personally I'd rather have a modded SKS. :mrgreen:

(which is probably why I know little about them)

[HATCH]

there are four basic versions

(1) imported high cap guns (like MAK90, prebans)
(2) imported low cap guns that were converted to high cap
(3) domestic built using a imported parts kit (original barrel)
(4) domestic built using a imported parts kit (US MADE barrel)

I love Mak90's. They are Chinese made and IMHO one of the best ones to own.
Sar/Wsar series rifles can be good rifles. It all depend on the day of the week the monkeys were converting it. Some are Great and some suck.

Century did a lot of work on converting low caps to high caps.

I guess over the years I have own 30 or 40 AK's and twice that many kits.
They are fun to build and can be built (with the right tools) in about 5 hours (not including refinishing)


If you really want to do some reading www.theakforum.net is the place to go.
There are people there that have forgotten more then I have ever known about AK's.

[JIMinPHX]

Ole,
It is possible to change a stock you know...

[MilSurpFan]

And you never will. A bit of trigger work will help some, but it is a cheap, stamped, loose tolerance service weapon. If you want target accuracy from a battle rifle, buy an AR-15 for several hundred dollars more. You could build a tack driver for about $800.

Shiloh

Shiloh,

With quality ammo and a decent sighting system (scope, red dot, aperture, etc) many Kalshnikov-style rifles will shoot well under 4 minutes. Both of my Saiga 223s consistently delivered 3" groups or slightly better at 100 yards with Remington UMC 55gr FMJs. This is very similar to the results I get from my clone A1 (real Colt A1 upper and barrel).

With the crude sights, short sight radius and the crappy ammo most people use, then yes, maybe more like 4-6.

Once you have an AR really working and delivering MOA or less groups, it is not a "Battle Rifle" and cannot be used in comparison to a garden variety AK. Granted, the AR is THE platform to build a match "Service Rifle" on and I surely won't argue that point, just that in reality it is not even close to an issue rifle and I certainly would not carry it in combat. Too tight, to unreliable. Wylde chambers, free-float handguards, NM sights, and match bullets have no place on the battlefield.

I argue strongly that the disadvantages with the AK are the sights and lack of good 7.62x39 loads, not the operating clearances or stamped construction.

[JIMinPHX]

I argue strongly that the disadvantages with the AK are the sights and lack of good 7.62x39 loads, not the operating clearances or stamped construction.

There's the challenge that I was looking for. I'll pick one up & see if I can get it to hit golf balls at 100 yards.:popcorn:

[c3d4b2]

Once you have an AR really working and delivering MOA or less groups, it is not a "Battle Rifle" and cannot be used in comparison to a garden variety AK.

I am confused or missing something...... I have seen out of the box AR's shoot quite well. Much better than the 3 to 4 inches they are claiming for the AK's.

[GRUMPA]

After reading all these posts about AK's, got me to thinking about my own AK. Now its that little nagging voice in my head wondering if I really get good accuracy, I just took it to the desert and made the soda cans move around, and that was over 18yrs ago. Now that I have room in my new place I'll have to try that thing out at 100yds.:Fire:

[Gunsmoke4570]

ARs generally shoot good out of the box, as long as you have good ammo. The AKs I have experience with I will rate the Romanian at the bottom, then the Bulgarian/Arsenal rifles and the Saiga family about even, and the Valmet and Galil styles on top. As previously mentioned, the biggest hold up is ammo, but I will say every SKS I've shot will out shoot an AK with the same ammo.

[OBIII]

In my opinion, AK's are, as you said, "Battle Rifles". Cheap to make and easy to maintain. That being said, I have a Romanian AK that I bought a while back. Finally took it to a gunsmith who told me that the bore was .310, the chamber and barrel looked good, with the exception of the slight bulge (.311 to .312) in the 1-1/2" distance prior to the end of the barrel. I don't expect to get tack driver accuracy at 200 yards, but I must say I will get hit after hit. It just seems to me that if you have access to loaded hi-cap magazines, you can throw a lot of lead downrange prior to having to change mags. I use my 03-A3 for distance shooting.

[JIMinPHX]

A lot of people seem to be of the opinion that ammo has a lot to do with the accuracy of an AK. Does anyone have specific loads that they recommend? Do you guys think that it would be best to load down to the point where the action stops cycling & the gun functions as a straight pull bolt gun? I'm going to be starting with the 160 grain Harris design boolits, unless someone has a good reason not to. I'll probably start with 2400 as a powder.

[GRUMPA]

Here is what i just got done shooting.



27940




Shot 2 different loads with pretty much same results. This one I uploaded is Norinco stuff. Other group was Hornady #3147 with 25gr. RL-7. 100yds rested, MAK-90 Norinco, with so-so eyesight, iron sites.

[JIMinPHX]

You need to reset the date gizmo on your digital camera. That picture reads August of 2003.

That's a pretty good group relative to what other people have been saying those things are capable of. If I can get down to a group like that, I'll be pretty happy.

I've got a little RL-7 kicking around from loading my .30-30. If you're getting groups like that, maybe I'll give it a whirl too.

Thanks,
Jim

[MtGun44]

I have built and bought lots of ARs, ALL shoot at WORST 1/3 the group sizes that my one
and only AK can do. I'm going to load some quality ammo for the AK before I assume that
it is just a rattly old ***, but so far, that is my impression. Yeah, it will work (altho mine has
jammed more than any AR that I have) most of the time, and no doubt that is important,
but seems like a FAL or HK91 will outshoot them by a bunch, and they work, too. I have multiple
ARs that will keep them all in 3" at 300 yds, or 5" with junky milsurp ammo.

Not sure where it says that you have to be inaccurate to be reliable.

Bill

[MilSurpFan]

There's the challenge that I was looking for. I'll pick one up & see if I can get it to hit golf balls at 100 yards.:popcorn:

Golf balls at 100 yards may be going a bit far. :) The again, I can't even see a golf ball at 100yards so I might be biased.

I've gotten decent results with Hornady 150grain .312 jacketed loads using 4895 and 4198. I know I've run a few loads through a Romanian with the Lee 160gr TL though I don't have any clear recollection of the results. Must not have been too memorable either good or bad as I would remember better.

I'll look though the pile of old targets to see what loads looked promising. Maybe I'll find my notes from the Lee 160s. Plenty of good info out there for this caliber already as I am sure you are aware.

[82nd airborne]

You do know, with a milled receiver, you can make a barrel from a blank and make your own trunion and get some decent accuracy for a decent battle rifle. Ive got one I build from a receiver flat and parts kit when I was in my teens. With the Lee 220g cast it will do 3" if I can, but AK irons and I are not a good mate.

[GRUMPA]

Jim from what I've been reading from other sites in my particular case may have a weee bit of an advantage. The Norinco ammo is no longer imported, hasn't for years and from other sites it was at the time pretty good stuff to use. Alot of the budget type ammo for those is covered in some sort of lacquer (mine is copper wash)which again from reading from other sites creates problems for some. And since theirs alot of so called clones floating around on the market and the AK is my least favorite to shoot I can't comment on what brand is good and which one isn't.

And again from other sites the Norinco AK's for in my mind being a budget gun were pretty good for alot of people, which stopped being imported in the early 90's. Which one is good now? I have no clue. But the reloaded stuff I shot worked very similar to the factory stuff so I would guess my Norinco is a pretty good shooter. It's really kinda hard to figure out which one works for the individual when you can't try out different ones before you buy.

[JIMinPHX]

Well,
I've dipped my toe in the water on this one. I picked up one of the cheap Romanian refits that was done by Century, so I expected to be starting near the bottom of the quality scale. I found a few pleasant surprises & a few things that didn't exactly make me smile.

The first thing that I did was to take it home, give it a quick cleaning & a function check. When that was done, I grabbed 100 rounds of ammo & headed for my favorite shooting spot. Out of the box, this thing was able to make a soda can jump @ 50 yards, more times than not. At 20 yards, I could make the can jump about 1 out of 3 times shooting from the hip. In 100 rounds, I didn't have a single feeding problem. I fired the last 30 round magazine in steady, but not really fast, succession. After that, the oil on the outside of the barrel started to smoke. OK, I guess that means that this thing handles like an AK is supposed to handle.

I took it home, gave it a good cleaning & looked it over a little closer. The bolt & carrier assembly look to be pretty well made. The OD edges of the gas piston were sharp as a razor, so I dulled them up with some 400 grit. The gas piston tube has some SERIOUS clearance designed into it. It would just about take an act of god to clog that thing up. The poor excuse for a slant cut muzzle brake on the front of this thing was really loose & wobbling around badly. I mean it had like .030" of movement in it. It was bad. The chrome bore looked nice & shiny. I didn't slug it yet.

The muzzle brake was held on by a M14 x 1 left hand thread with an index locating pin. The pin engaged about 3/4 of a turn out & the threads were sloppy, so that's where the wobble came from. I made an aluminum shim to go under the muzzle brake & tighten things up. That part is about 98% better now.

I decided to take this thing out today & treat it like a rifle, rather than a lead spraying device. I took 5 shot strings with 6 different types of ammo, letting the rifle rest for about 5 minutes between strings. I loaded the cartridges by hand, rather than using a magazine. The range was 50 yards. Conditions were 65 degrees, sunny, with a slight breeze. I was shooting over the hood of my truck with only a towel for a rest.

2 different loads with 13bnh Harris design boolits shot the worst, with 3 out of 5 inside of 3" & the other 2 off the paper. The best group came from some Herter's brand FMJ. Wolf soft points come in a close second. The best group had all 5 shots inside of 2.75" @ 50 yards. That is certainly not bench rest class, but it could pass for a rifle group & it is a place to start. It certainly is minute of Bambi & the 154 grain soft points would seem to be suitable for that kind of task.

I'm going to try to work up some better cast loads for this thing & see if I can get the groups down to 1.5" @ 50 yards. I think that poor excuse for a muzzle brake is the first place that I can look on the rifle to make some accuracy improvements. Unfortunately, my lathe doesn't have a metric threading gear box on it, so a left hand M14-1 thread is going to be something that I can't cut myself. I may have to look around for something on the open market that I can just buy.

Any other ideas or suggestions out there?

[waksupi]

I was going to suggest if the accuracy went bad as things heated up, remove the aluminum shim you put under the muzzle break. They are supposed to have some slop in them as designed. Allows for metal expansion. If it really bugs you, stone some of the back surface off, until you can re-index on the plunger pin.

[JIMinPHX]

Actually, my best group was my last group. If anything, heat might have helped the accuracy improve. The rifle didn't get very hot though. Not today anyway.

[Ole]

Remind me next time I head out your way Jim and i'll bring along a few boxes of M67 Yugo Milsurp ammo. I have a boatload of it for my SHTF stash.

It's corrosive, but supposed to be among the most accurate 7.62x39 ammo you can get.

Have you slugged your bore? Recovered any of the Lee 2R bullets in your trap?

[JIMinPHX]

I managed to snap off a few more quick rounds today. I cast up some harder boolits out if recovered shot + 15% babbit. Water dropped, they came out @ 30 bnh. I loaded them over 21 grains of RE-7 for around 1800fps. Out of an SKS, I got a 1-3/8" group @ 50 yards. The AK gave me about 4" groups with the muzzle brake shimmed snug & a 2-1/4" group with the muzzle brake removed. That's better than the best group that it shot with the muzzle brake on, even with j-word bullets. I think that I'm on the right track. I'm going to see if I can make some more muzzle area improvements.

[Shiloh]

There's the challenge that I was looking for. I'll pick one up & see if I can get it to hit golf balls at 100 yards.:popcorn:

Good Luck!!

Shiloh

[82nd airborne]

cutting a crown couldnt hurt.

[JIMinPHX]

cutting a crown couldnt hurt.

I was thinking that too.

[JIMinPHX]

After scratching my head & figuring out that I could get pretty close to a 1mm pitch out of a lathe with an Imperial gearbox by setting up for 22tpi & running a 13:15 auxiliary gear ratio, I did manage to cut a M14-1L plug gage.

Then I did some more thinking & it dawned on me, that everything I post on this thread is available to anyone on the internet at large. I often speak my mind here, rather freely, as though I was sitting in a living room with a bunch of friends. Unfortunately, it's not only friends that can read what is written here.

Since the AK is predominantly used by people in this world that are not friends of the US, it is probably not in my best interest to post a bunch of hop up tips for that type of rifle on an open access internet forum. The last thing that I want to do is help some Taliban type in Afghanistan improve his rifle so that he can shoot at US soldiers better.

Based on that realization, I'm not going to post anymore of my findings on this subject. I don't want to be remembered as the guy that gave aid & comfort to the enemy.

I did figure out a few more things about that rifle, but I'm going to keep my new found info local.

Now, when I manage to scrape together enough money to someday get into the AR platform, I'll be happy to share what I learn & figure out about that.

[HighHook]

A man with an ak is one bad MO FO. No dought about it. They all have there little quirks. Just get one (any one) and you will love it. They shoot the lee 155 really nice.

Jim I am sure you have other stuff to shoot nose hairs out of squirrels.

When you go shooting make sure you bring plenty of ammo and make sure you make your buddys stop off at wallmart and buy ammo...

We all wonder about that internet thing.

[txpete]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/century20monkey1.jpg

[45r]

If you can't get the one you got to run the way you like,try a poly-tech or a bulgarian AK.I like my Poly-tech enough that it keeps me company at bedtime.It shoots well enough with handloads using speer and hornady J-words over 1680.My sons milled Bulgarian shoots very well.If you want to spend a little more money,those seem to be the best to me.I prefer a AK over a AR with a short barrel.Put a 24 inch barrel on a AR and the AR is better and very effective with 64 grain power points,my Colt loves them along with sierra 52 grain matchkings.Half inch groups are the norm.I've always thought the AR is better as a sniper rifle.I think the bushmaster ACR has made it obsolete as a CR.I'd love to have a ACR in 300BLK.

[Bullet Caster]

JIMinPHX,
Howdy. I know this is an old thread but I just had to add my .02 worth. I own an IO AK-47 made in the USA with Romanian parts. I've heard a lot of negative reports on IO's but I must have gotten a good one. I replaced that cut muzzle brake with a TAPCO RPK type muzzle brake and flash hider. It sure makes the ak look better and performs well too. I love my AK-47. Haven't shot any cast from it yet but I will in the near future.
I'm a Vietnam vet and you couldn't give me an AR-15 or M-16 for that matter. What battle rifle needs a forward assist on it? Tolerences are just too tight for a good battle rifle. Many a dead Marine was found with his M-16 jammed biside him. Most would toss the little black rifle and pick up a good AK-47 from the battlefield. Ammo was plentiful then. Not all NVA soldiers were equiped with an AK. There were a lot of SKS rifles being used in Vietnam too. All fully automatic infantry rifles are used only for fire suppression. After that comes the marksmanship with one shot, one kill.
I can't wait to shoot cast out of my AK. I've got the mould but no dies as of yet. My mould is the Lee 155 grain spire point .312. Will probably not size, just lube and shoot. I call my American/Romanian AK-47 my AMROM AK. I have shot my AMROM at the range and could not get my scope to zero with the side mount plate and UTG quick release. It just doesn't sit amid the centerline of the rifle and I've run out of clicks of adjustment on the left windage knob. I've seen another side mount rail that is centerline adjustable and that would be the recommended mount for attaching a scope. I've been there and done that. Just remember that if and when you opt for a scope mount. BC

[truckmsl]

I've got thousands of cast rounds through a norinco AK and I can tell you that it is definitely possible to consistently get much better than the 4"-6" grouping that was stated above.

The AK can be very sensitive to how it is held/rested, but it can be very accurate if you work with it. The key is not to accept all of the bad PR that is out there - I've heard many folks who have never shot an AK proclaim how inaccurate the platform is.

[MtGun44]

So far the biggest improvement I have found is taking the muzzle device off. I had the
original slant cut compensator, replaced it with a M16 style comp/flash hider threaded for
AKs. Same results, 3+" at 50 yds, when the AR 15 minutes later wiith open sights will make
them all go into 1/2-1". Took off the muzzle device entirely, cut the groups to about 2" at
50 yds, definitely better but still just fair IMO. Using Rooskie steel case ammo and Prvi
"Yugo" brass cased ammo, both seem similarly inaccurate or accurate however you want to
put it.

Of course if the job requirement is to hose down the area, this is fine. Given that most
3rd world "soldiers" have little or no marksmanship training and less discipline, it probably
makes no difference whatsoever to them. Hop out from behind cover, spray half a mag
from the hip while waving the muzzle in the general direction of the target and jump back
behind cover, seems to be the drill if the TV videos can be believed. Maybe there are some
well trained troops out there that just don't wind up on TV. The more I think about it, why would
TV be accurate on this when they are so full of bean on most other things.

Bill

[machinisttx]

I'm nit picky about certain things. The term "battle rifle" is one of them. The garand, M14, FAL, and G3 are examples of battle rifles. The AR and AK fall into the "assault rifle" category. The difference is the power and effective range of the cartridge. The AR and AK are both intended to be used at 300 meters or less, while the battle rifes are intended to be used at twice that or more. Sorry, had to get it out. 8-)

AK's generally have pretty poor quality barrels on them. I was amazed at just how bad they are when I cut one down to build an AK pistol. The bore wanders all around(non concentric), and may be off .040"+ or more in one place or more. With a quality barrel and a milled receiver, I bet that one would shoot much better than the typical 4+ MOA. Another thing against them is the loose tolerances they're built to.

As long as you're not expecting stellar accuracy, they're pretty decent rifles.

[zomby woof]

The problem with the AK system as far as accuracy goes, is the chamber and freebore. The chambers are cut very oversize to make it reliable under battle conditions. the bullets is practically out of the case before it hits any rifling. It's made to be reliable. Add to that a stamped receiver and a bunch of metal hanging off the barrel, you get 3-5 MOA at best. I went down the reloading road some time ago. I could barely resize the brass it was expanded so much. Simple, reliable. It has poor ergonomics for me. Once I bought an AR, I put down the AK.

[nelsonted1]

Mark Krebs builds phenomenal Aks that are surprisingly accurate and cost $1350 on up.

http://www.krebscustom.com/index.shtml

[mpmarty]

Jim if you ever get up to oregon give me a shout and I'll let you shoot golf balls at 200 yards all day long with my AK. I've got a 16" barrel Saiga chambered for 7.62 Nato from the factory in Russia. Also has an 8X scope and it is a tack driver with my FA Natl Match ammo. Turns cover into concealment in a hurry.

[Aloxite]

I'd be curious what a decent fitting bullet could do in a 7.62x39 ak. I have a milled Norinco hunter with a 20" barrel. I need to do a chamber cast and see what the throat looks like.