C&R arrived, now what?

[rtracy2001]

My C&R finally arrived in the mail this afternoon. [smilie=w: In typical government style, just the licence arrived, no instructions/rulebook, nothing! (there was a note about the reg. book shipping seperately, but who knows how long that may take :groner: )
I know I need to make copies, and sign them, not the original, but I was wondering:

1. Does it need to be a certified/notarized copy?
2. Does my signature need to be notarized.

I also know I need to get a logbook to track firearms aquired through the C&R (Brownells has a bound book for like $4), but what else should I know that ATF didn't/won't/hasn't told me?

Any tips?

[RugerFan]

1. No
2. No

* Get a 2nd job to pay for all the goodies you can't resist.

[rtracy2001]

1. No
2. No.
Sweet!! I get to mail some out tomorrow.


* Get a 2nd job to pay for all the goodies you can't resist.

I was thinking the same thing.

Thanks!!

[462]

I'm waiting for my second renewal to arrive.

Booklets -- C&R regulations, the various states' gun laws, and list of C&R qualifying guns -- are shipped seperately...you will get them. Read them a few times, as there is more than a bit of ambiguity to some of the regulations and laws. E-mails to the ATF will clear up any questions. The latest states' gun laws booklet is now on compact disc.

In addition to the C&R wholesalers, Midway and Brownells offer dealer pricing to C&R licensees. In one year, I'll save more on Midway purchases, alone, than the cost of the license, which is good for three years.

You do have a big bank account, don't you?

[JIMinPHX]

Just make a bunch of photo copies or scan the FFL into your computer & print some out. You can fit 2 copies of your FFL on a single 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper if they haven't changed them since I had one.

You sign the photocopies as you are ready to distribute them. You give a signed copy to each wholesale supplier that you are buying guns from.

The bound book can be almost anything that you can write on & that has pages that are not removable. You can probably find at least 10 different booklets that qualify in any office supply store like Staples or Office Max. $4 from Brownells certainly sounds reasonable, if it looks to be something that you like. A $0.98 pocket pad from Walmart also qualifies, but if you can get something a little more official looking for $4, then why not?

The rule books get printed once per year. When they get printed, each FFL holder gets 1 copy of each. There were always 2 books, 1 for fed regs & 1 for state regs. In the state books, NH usually takes up about half a page & NJ usually takes up a whole bunch of pages. The book's covers have different colors for different years so that you can tell them apart easily. At least, that's the way that they did it 20 years ago.

I may be a little out of date now.

Two things that they may not have told you yet are that -
1) They give seminars on firearms laws every so often & you will get invited to sit in & learn something
2) Eventually, a special agent will get sent out to inspect your licensed premises. They are usually kind enough to call you first & make an appointment. If you stand them up (due to a flat tire) they will get rather irate. I wish that I didn't actually know about that last part first hand, but unfortunately I do.

If I were you, I'd get a copy of my FFL off to Sarco, J&G and any other large surplus supplier that you plan to buy from. Once you are on file with them, future purchases go much more quickly.

[*Paladin*]

I have had my C&R for 3 years now and haven't been visited by the ATF yet, not that I have anything to hide, but I like my privacy and hope they don't come calling. That is the one and only down-side to the license.

[462]

In six-years, I haven't been invited to any seminars (first I've heard of them) nor to enjoy a cup of ATF coffee.

I did have a couple friendly e-mail conversations with a very nice lady in Atlanta. Didn't know whether or not to add pre-license C&Rs to the bound book (remember, laws and regulations are written by lawyers who speak something other than ordinary American English.) She said that it's not required but that it might be a good idea to do so.

[smokemjoe]

I think it says on there to give your sheriffs department a copy also. Have had mine 6 years and not heard nothing, Keep your book up and dont make a bussinece selling. Good for inerstate buying when you find a gun in a store or gun show.

[bruce drake]

I've had mine for 12 years and just renewed again prior to this last deployment. You are getting good advice so far.
I only had an issue once when I moved to NY State and the local sheriff wanted to see all my firearms that I had on the license when I dropped a copy of my change of address form off at his office.
I told him he could pound sand and that the copy to him was a courtesy and not a requirement and walked out the door. The new FFL with the new address came in the mail 4 weeks later.
I do recommend that you keep a damn good record of what you buy on that license. I got a notice in the mail in the fall of 02 for a courtesy visit from the local ATF office in Nashville. I think it was because I had bought 16 rifles on the C&R in the span of two months (I had some great days on Gunbroker.com) and it tripped someone's database ( I had bought all the rifles from commercial gundealers) so they asked for a courtesy visit. I scheduled a day convieniant to my schedule and they came on post at Ft. Campbell and reviewed my book and the gunsafes I had them secured in along with spot checking the serials on a couple of the rifles in the safe according to the book. I received no gigs on the inspection and it was over in less than an hour.
I'm sometimes slow logging in the book but I always slip the FFL copy or a photocopy of a drivers license along with details of the transaction (date, rifle/pistol description and serial #) into the back of my bound book where I have a folder stapled to the back cover. I usually update at the end of each month on these documents. I keep the Bound Book in one of my gunsafes as well for safekeeping.
I hope some of the advice helps.

Bruce

[JIMinPHX]

Things may be different with a C&R, but with a regular FFL, any firearm on the premises that is not in the bound book must be labeled that it is not for sale. You are allowed to keep your private collection on the premises, but when inspection day comes, every firearm in the place either needs a bound book entry or a tag to identify it as personal property & not for sale. Privately owned firearms do not need to be entered in the bound book.

When you eventually cease operations for whatever reason & turn in your FFL, you will also turn in your bound book to the feds. Any entry in that bound book will then become part of their permanent records.

[Wayne Smith]

Things may be different with a C&R, but with a regular FFL, any firearm on the premises that is not in the bound book must be labeled that it is not for sale. You are allowed to keep your private collection on the premises, but when inspection day comes, every firearm in the place either needs a bound book entry or a tag to identify it as personal property & not for sale. Privately owned firearms do not need to be entered in the bound book.

When you eventually cease operations for whatever reason & turn in your FFL, you will also turn in your bound book to the feds. Any entry in that bound book will then become part of their permanent records.

Yes, it's different for C&R because we have no public premises. Thus no requirement for any physical separation between C&R and other. The Bound Book only has to include those bought on your C&R.

One thing not mentioned is that you can scan your FFL and e-mail it to any of the dealers. That is now acceptable.

My problem with Midway is that $40 minimum charge for dealers. Hard to pick up a shell holder or two.

[markinalpine]

Brownells, Midway, and Grafs will let you set up a dealer account with your C&R FFL.
It's easy to recover your $30/3year investment.
Merry Christmas,
Mark [smilie=s:

[rtracy2001]

Brownells, Midway, and Grafs will let you set up a dealer account with your C&R FFL.
It's easy to recover your $30/3year investment.
Merry Christmas,
Mark [smilie=s:

MidwayUSA does not need a signed copy (as many others do) and they can be sent to them via email! For example. . .


Dear Ray,

Thank you for your recent email and C&R license. Please allow 24 hours for processing. We apologize for any inconvenience caused.

If you have any additional questions or comments, please feel free to contact us at 1-800-243-3220. Our hours of operation are Monday through Friday 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. CT; Saturday and Sunday 9 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. CT. You may also email us at customerservice@midwayusa.com.

Thanks for Your Business!

Miriam

MidwayUSA Customer Service



That was in my email inbox not 30 minutes after sending out a PDF of my license.

Not bad IMHO

[alamogunr]

My problem with Midway is that $40 minimum charge for dealers. Hard to pick up a shell holder or two.

I have better luck with Grafs. Plus, if you wait awhile, Midway will eventually put most things on sale. The sale price usually is the same as the "dealer" price. Don't order these as a dealer.

John
W.TN

[C1PNR]

Actually, "My Bound Book" as I call it, is a 3 ring binder. I keep the records of each purchase (many) and each sale (only one) on my computer and print out a new page every time something changes.

I'm not actually keeping the records on the computer, which requires BATFE permission, but rather using the computer as a means to record in type written form, not hand scribbles, and then print the sheets for the bound book.

My understanding is that this is acceptable.

[Johnch]

Can the C&R liscense be faxed as a regulare FFL can ?

As I am considering getting a C&R

John

[*Paladin*]

Can the C&R liscense be faxed as a regulare FFL can ?

As I am considering getting a C&R

John

Yes...

[Wayne Smith]

Just a note, I have both my O2 and O6 FFLs. My 02 has never sparked a visit. My original application for my 06 did. Very good visit, no problems. The fact that my wife works for the Department of Environmental Quality probably helped!

[RugerFan]

Can the C&R liscense be faxed as a regulare FFL can ?



Some dealers want a hard copy mailed to them. Not sure why, but I have seen this requirement on occasion.

[rtracy2001]

Some dealers want a hard copy mailed to them. Not sure why, but I have seen this requirement on occasion.

I just got an email from SOG, and Brownell's (both of which stated they needed a signed hard copy of the C&R) saying that a scanned, signed copy emailed to them is just as good.

Not going to complain about that as it saves on postage.

[NoZombies]

Scanned Email copies are legal, if someone requires something else, it's their policy.

C1PNR, you might want to check the bound book requirements, my understanding is (I'm not an FFL, so don't jump on me too hard if I'm wrong please!) that the "bound" part of the designation indicates that the pages aren't easily removable. I don't think a ring binder qualifies. Am I missing something?

[rtracy2001]

C1PNR, you might want to check the bound book requirements, my understanding is (I'm not an FFL, so don't jump on me too hard if I'm wrong please!) that the "bound" part of the designation indicates that the pages aren't easily removable. I don't think a ring binder qualifies. Am I missing something?

I bought a bound book from Brownell's, and it has a summary of some of the most important/most often used regs. Under the record keeping section it mentions that the "bound Book" can either be a real bound book or an orderly collection collection of looseleaf pages. Assuming the interpretaion is Kosher (you be the judge, I still don't have a reg book yet) a looseleaf binder would be OK.

The book I bought from Brownells has room for over 320 transactions , seems to have lots of room for my scrawl, has the regulation summary I mentioned, and cost more to ship than to purchase (ended up being $3.00 to purchase and $5.50 to ship, should have scrounged up a few parts to cover the shipping). For that price I can't really see doing anything else for right now.

Say as I mentioned I have not yet received my reg book, can a C&R accept a firearm by mail from a private individual in another state, assuming all other requirements are met? Got to looking on Gunbroker and a few specify that the FFl must accept shipment from an individual.

[462]

"...can a C&R accept a firearm by mail from a private individual in another state, assuming all other requirements are met?"

Yes. Since I have to live in California, that's the reason why I got the license.

[Fat-beeman]

I love buying old military rifles but always thought the license was costly or hard to get I am 69 and not a felon
D:killingpc

[462]

The license is $30 and is renewable every 3-years.

If you buy from a wholesaler -- versus a dealer or through Gunbroker, for instance -- you will more than save the $30 on your first purchase. Too, there are the discounts offered by Midway, Brownells, et. al.

Not, at all, hard to get...request the application paperwork, read the instructions, fill it out, mail it in, and wait.

[rtracy2001]

Not, at all, hard to get...request the application paperwork, read the instructions, fill it out, mail it in, and wait.

Mine took about a month and a half after I sent it off. They are required to respond within 60 days of receiving your paperwork (pay with a CC so you can tell when they get the application.)

The instruction sheet they sent me made mention to environmental impact statements, even included the forms, wastewater discharge and everything else! You don't need an environmental impact study for a C&R, so don't worry about that.

The hardest part was getting a copy of the application to the chief LEO. The local police sent me to the Sheriff, the Sheriff sent me back to the police. I finally got someone to take a copy of the form (and give me a receipt) and mailed off the original as quick as I could. The police chief called two days later to say the forms were all in order and could be sent off. You don’t need his approval, you just need to notify him.

[Wayne Smith]

If I remember right I downloaded pages for my bound book from Surplusrifles.com. I made enough of them seven years ago and from another computer that I don't actually remember if that was the site but I think it was.

[buck1]

I have also thought about getting a C&R .
I have no real intrest in selling just adding my personal colection. Do you have to be a business of some sorts or can you just buy for your own personal stuff? This thread is helping me a lot. Thanks to all....Bucl

[waksupi]

I have also thought about getting a C&R .
I have no real intrest in selling just adding my personal colection. Do you have to be a business of some sorts or can you just buy for your own personal stuff? This thread is helping me a lot. Thanks to all....Bucl


You can only buy for your own personal use. You cannot buy for anyone else. The only acceptable way to sell, is if you are getting rid of something to help upgrade your collection, or if you are getting out of collecting all together.

My C&R pays for itself many times over from discounts from vendors.

[alamogunr]

If I remember right I downloaded pages for my bound book from Surplusrifles.com. I made enough of them seven years ago and from another computer that I don't actually remember if that was the site but I think it was.

IIRC that is where I got my pages too. There is one page for acquisitions and another for dispositions. I put mine into a loose leaf binder so that when opened, acquisitions are on the left and dispositions on the right.

My understanding of the regs is that this is sufficient.

John
W.TN

[buck1]

You can only buy for your own personal use. You cannot buy for anyone else. The only acceptable way to sell, is if you are getting rid of something to help upgrade your collection, or if you are getting out of collecting all together.

My C&R pays for itself many times over from discounts from vendors.

Thanks! I see now. I have been looking at the ATF site and am slowly piceing it all together (I dont talk lawyer). At first I thought you had to be a reseller of some sort. But I see basicly , You need to keep it or at least untill you upgrade it. and you have to keep records of all C&R guns you buy on the licence and when/if you sell those guns you must record it in the log.And if you do sell one you must do the brady form/call. Does this sound right? Thanks...Buck

[Wayne Smith]

I believe that when you sell you only need reliable identification of the buyer and address within the state or neighboring state for face to face. Distant selling I haven't gotten into yet, don't know how that works.

[buck1]

wow, even better!

[462]

I sold a C&R handgun to an out-of-state Cast Boolits member who is a C&R licensee, also. I would sell out-of-state only to a dealer or C&R holder, and face-to-face only if I knew the person.

Bear in mind, that the purpose of the license is to acquire a certain category of guns. It is not a license to sell them as a means of income, only to get rid of a gun you are no longer interested in or to use the funds from a sale to subsidize another acquisition. I believe the term the ATF uses is "infrequent", when describing C&R sales, and there is not a number associated with the term.

Also, keep in mind that, when it's time to renew the license, you must state how many guns you purchased and sold, utilizing the soon-to-expire license.

I know a dealer who alerted the ATF to a C&R holder who was buying and re-selling guns to non-licensees.

[corvette8n]

Be prepared to eat a lot or Ramen noodles.:groner:

[georgewxxx]

The main criteria for a gun to be C&R illegible is needs to have manufactured 50 years ago or more. There can be some gray areas as to when some guns was actually made. Some don't have serial numbers, or the particular brand of firearm serial numbers aren't listed anywhere to find out that date. Also a great many FFL dealers haven't a clue when their gun they're selling was made, and refuse to do a transaction. Then a call or email to the ATF is warranted. I've tried to buy guns that are known to be over 50 years old, but some FFL dealers for some reason refuse to sell to C&R holders.

I printed my bound book pages off the internet 10 years ago, and I assume like then, there are several types available now yet. Just do a Google or Yahoo image search and you'll come up with one to print out yourself.

Remember too if your buying a weapon for a buddy, it's still considered a straw buy, and not legal. That doesn't mean you can't sell it at some point, but be careful. I've sold lesser guns that I've upgraded to a better quality of the same model. ...Geo

[C1PNR]

There's a .pdf form here: http://www.cruffler.com/boundbook2.pdf

for both pages, if you're interested.

And yes, prepare to eat a LOT of Ramen noodles. [smilie=1:

[rtracy2001]

There's a .pdf form here: http://www.cruffler.com/boundbook2.pdf

for both pages, if you're interested.

Those are scanned rightout of the book Brownell's sells.


And yes, prepare to eat a LOT of Ramen noodles. [smilie=1:

And work a lot of overtime.

[troy_mclure]

it took me a whopping 28 days to get mine this spring.

also you can buy a "lot" of guns(say 1903's) to pick the best for your collection and sell the rest. you probably dont want to show a large profit in doing so, but its legal.

[rtracy2001]

Also you can buy a "lot" of guns(say 1903's) to pick the best for your collection and sell the rest. you probably dont want to show a large profit in doing so, but its legal.

Man I hope the rule book arrives soon so I can verify that. (Trust but verify) How do you go about selling off the rejects then? Do you need to go through all that form 4473 garbage? Do you only sell to close friends and family (everyone in my family has a CCL and moderate to large collections)? Gunbroker and make the buyer round up a FFL (seems reasonable)?

Do I need to request that a rule book be sent? Seems logical that they would send one to a new licensee, but lack of logic has never really concerned the govt.

[troy_mclure]

i got mine about 2 weeks after my licenses arrived. im not at my house or id quote it exactly to ya.

[rtracy2001]

The rules and regs arrived today, only a month after the license, not too bad for a government job. Anyway, I was reading the regs and had a few questions I thought I would run past you folks before breaking down and sending an email to ATF.

1. Do I need to record firearms purchased face to face from a licensed seller? Say I go into Big 5 sporting goods down the street, and pick up their $99 M.N. I fill out the 4473 form (let’s face it the guy behind the counter would not be able to figure out a C&R transaction anyway) just as any schmuck of the street would. Do I now need to go home and record the purchase in my logbook (Big 5 won’t give me all the info I need like license number)?
2. How about the C&R firearms that I already own? Do I need to record them in the logbook? How would I do that, as I don’t have all the acquisition info? (I just don’t have the dates and names of previous owners.)
3. Here is the kicker. Assuming I don’t have to retroactively record my pre-license firearms, but I have to record ALL transactions, (even FTF with a dealer in my home state) what do I do if I have to take one to a gunsmith? Log out a firearm with no log-in, and then log it in when it comes back from the smith? (sounds messy).

What is your take on it?

[462]

1. If you didn't use your C&R license, there isn't a requirement that the purchase be entered as such, in your bound book. (My experience with Big-5 is that they are not the least bit familiar with a C&R license and don't care to learn.)

2. I had the same question, and e-mailed ATF. The response was that it is not required, but it would be a good idea to do so. (One and two sort of go hand-in-hand.)

3. I would log it in, anyway, using the day's date, log it out when you take it to the gunsmith, then log it back in when you take possession of it, again. (I may be wrong, but that's what I would do.)

Aside: You should always keep an accurate record of any firearm you purchase, even if you don't have a C&R license. The information would be useful in case of a disaster, fire, theft, sale, etc. -- CYA.

Hope this helps.

[rtracy2001]

Good info, thanks!



Aside: You should always keep an accurate record of any firearm you purchase, even if you don't have a C&R license. The information would be useful in case of a disaster, fire, theft, sale, etc. -- CYA.



I inherited most of my collection. I suppose I could list my Dad as the P.O. and his date of death as the purchase date? If ATF has a question, they can track him down to verify the data. (AT&T tried hard when mom wanted to switch the cell phone out of his name, but they eventually gave up.)

[462]

"I suppose I could list my Dad as the P.O. and his date of death as the purchase date?"

That sounds very sensible.

My philosophy is to not do anything that would give the ATF any reason to give me any grief, in case they were to ever conduct an inspection.

Have you sent copies of your license to the firearms wholesalers and companies like Midway? Have you purchased a gun?

[rtracy2001]

Have you sent copies of your license to the firearms wholesalers and companies like Midway? Have you purchased a gun?

I have sent copies to a number of retailers such as MidwayUSA, Brownells, Graffs, etc. I have also sent copies to S.O.G. and Century Arms (I need to call them as they have not acknowledged the receipt). No gun purchases yet, though if all goes well tax time should be fun.

Any other importers or wholesalers that I should contact?

[alamogunr]

I have sent copies to a number of retailers such as MidwayUSA, Brownells, Graffs, etc. I have also sent copies to S.O.G. and Century Arms (I need to call them as they have not acknowledged the receipt). No gun purchases yet, though if all goes well tax time should be fun.

Any other importers or wholesalers that I should contact?

I have never had dealers in milsurps acknowledge receipt of my C&R(except Empire Arms). They will if you call to make sure they have it.

John
W.TN

[462]

"Any other importers or wholesalers that I should contact?"

Classic Arms, Samco, Aim, Numrich, Huntington's, Wolff Springs, Sinclair to name a few.

[alamogunr]

"Any other importers or wholesalers that I should contact?"

Classic Arms, Samco, Aim, Numrich, Huntington's, Wolff Springs, Sinclair to name a few.

IIRC Sinclair does not offer a discount for a C&R, although they are a part of Brownell's.

John
W.TN

[rtracy2001]

IIRC Sinclair does not offer a discount for a C&R, although they are a part of Brownell's.

John
W.TN

Sinclair and Brownell's websites now share a shoping cart and the Brownell's dealer account does cary over to Sinclair. In fact I was browsing sinclair when I placed my Brownell's order, so it shipped in a Sinclair box.

[alamogunr]

Sinclair and Brownell's websites now share a shoping cart and the Brownell's dealer account does cary over to Sinclair. In fact I was browsing sinclair when I placed my Brownell's order, so it shipped in a Sinclair box.

It must be recent. I couldn't get the dealer price when I bought the Wilson trimmer. As it was, all I got from Sinclair was the stand with the hold down(I think they call it Shark Fin). I waited until Grafs got a shipment from Wilson and bought the trimmer and the case holders I needed from them. I would have preferred to buy from one vendor and save on shipping.

John
W.TN