Dupont No. 1 Smokeless

[Doc1]

I just bought a box of old black powder stuff and included in the lot was an ancient can of Dupont No. 1 smokeless rifle powder. The can looks like it was from around the turn of the last century and is still almost full! It's also in very good condition. Interestingly, the powder appears to be sort of an off-white color. I burned a pinch of it on a scrap board with my lighter and it seems to burn smoothly and somewhat slowly, just like modern smokeless rifle powder would.

While I don't intend on using it, it seems that you could. What I was really wondering was if the old tin - and possibly even the powder - had any collector value.

Best regards
Doc

[swheeler]

DuPont #1 introduced 1894, discontinued 1926
I would say the container(possibly the powder) has collector value, you just got to find the guy that wants it.

[Doc1]

DuPont #1 introduced 1894, discontinued 1926
I would say the container(possibly the powder) has collector value, you just got to find the guy that wants it.

Thank you, Sir! I've posted for info on a couple of other boards and it seems that it does indeed have collector value. Though I have no interest in using the powder, I may have some of the last remaining Dupont No.1 on Earth! That and a buck might get me a cup of coffee, right? LOL

I think I'll post this on the swapping and selling section here and see if anyone wants to trade for it.

Best regards
Doc

[swheeler]

You are welcome, I will copy the complete description for "Early Smokeless Powders"

" DuPont #1 Rifle Smokeless. Introduced 1894. Discontinued 1926: This was the first satisfactory smokeless powder and was intended for scoop measuring instead of weighing. No 1 Rifle powder, of a pale grayish-yellow and irregular granulation, was sifted through a wire mesh, 16 to the inch, and caught on screens 26 to the inch. It was intended for low pressures and used in such cartridges as the 22 single shot winchester,.22-15 and .22-16 Stevens, 25-20 Reapeater and Single Shot, .25-25 Stevens,.32-20 Winchester,.32-40 Winchester,.38-55, and .38-56.
This powder was inclined to crumble under the pressure of the bullet. Therefore, the manufacturer recommended that the loaded cartridges be used within a few days of loading. This crumbling produced higher pressures than intended, and the more the powder crumbled, the higher the pressures became. One of the major reasons for it's discontinuance was its tendency to soak in water, and thus become useless. This powder was designed to operate at pressures between 20,000 25,000 pounds."

I cannot find any load data for #1, But do have some for #2 from 1903, #2 smokeless was same formula but finer granulation so could be used in rifle and pistol. Scott

[perotter]

I think Phil Sharpe has some loads listed in "Complete Guide to Handloading". For just 2 or 3 calibers.

[old turtle]

In Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading " he has almost a whole page devoted to this powder in the review of old powders. He states that it can crumble under pressure such as a compressed load giving high pressures. It is also very hygroscopic and is green with yellow spots. It is cylindrical in shape. He shows the government load for 30-40 Krag. I would not use this powder as any thing that old could be very unstable

[perotter]

Personally, I'd use the powder in the garden. If you read DuPont's patents in the WW1 era, you'll quickly see that powder making was still being learned in the area of how to make stable powders. Also back in that era, some powder plants preprocessed more tons of old powder than they made new.

[TCLouis]

KEEP THE POWDER FOR NOW, you can always waste it later.

Do your reasearch and cast a wide net stating that you have some of the powder in you possession . . .

Can collectors and shooter may be different crowd and you might be able to reap a benefit from both.

[d garfield]

I was reading your post and got to thinking,

I have some old powder that I've had setting on the shelf for over 40 years.

I have Dupont 17 1/2, #80, (Du pont) Smoke Less, and # 5066,.

A can of Hercules Hi-Vel #3 That Has never been opened.
These are in Little cardboard boxes, and have little screw on caps.
Kind of interesting to read some of the loading data on them.

garf.:Fire:

[swheeler]

I was reading your post and got to thinking,

I have some old powder that I've had setting on the shelf for over 40 years.

I have Dupont 17 1/2, #80, (Du pont) Smoke Less, and # 5066,.

A can of Hercules Hi-Vel #3 That Has never been opened.
These are in Little cardboard boxes, and have little screw on caps.
Kind of interesting to read some of the loading data on them.

garf.:Fire:

Garf; the freshest that DuPont #17 1/2 could be is 77 years young! Introduced 1923, discontinued 1933

[w30wcf]

Doc1,

Nice find! The neat thing about DuPont No 1 BULK Smokeless is that it was designed to be used in case capacity loadings. It has a burning rate similar to 4198.

Having dissected early 45-70 cartridges to obtain this vintage powder for testing, I did not see any evidence of "crumbling" that Phil Sharpe has stated. Perhaps he is refering to a misuse of the powder by compressing it too much.

I tried it in the 22 Hornet to recreate the early 22 W.C.F. loading and in the 30-30 to recreate the early recommended "Mid Range" load. It worked very well in both applications.

Accuracy was extremely good in the Hornet with groups in the 1/2" range @ 50 yards. Just 5.5 grs filled the case capacity and produced velocities in the 1600 f.p.s. range.

The only negative about it is that it is hydroscopic. It can pick up moisture if not stored properly which will affect its ballistic strength.

This is the earliest can type. I do not own this can. It belongs to a Gunpowder Can Collector in Canada. It is about 4" high.
Top & Bottom
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/DupontNo1BulkSmokeless.jpg

Early DuPont Powder Guide
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/DuPont1902.jpg

28 grs. of DuPont No.1 in a 45-70 case- a capacity load....
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/DuPontNo128grs45-70.jpg

w30wcf

[Doc1]

Here's a picture of the can, gentlemen.

Best regards
Doc

[kenneth]

Greetings fellow enthusiats. New here to the forum. Have a question concerning items found that belonged to my sorely missed late father, a WW2 veteran. One is an advertisement for a Winchester Model 1894 Reloading Tool. Next is an advertisement for Du Pont No1 Smokeless Rifle Powder.
These two papers are beautiful, and are original. I would like to be able to put each in a frame suitable for framing. I would like to have frames that would do justice for these pieces of history. Can someone offer suggestions where I may look such items?
Thank you all, Ken

[Trey45]

Kenneth, welcome to the forum,

Get your yellow pages and look for FRAME SHOPS in or near satellite beach florida. They build picture frames any size you want.

[kenneth]

Thanks much Trey for your response. What I was looking for was a frame perhaps commemorating the era when the aforementioned items were in use, I suppose 1890 / 1910? There should be something out there either aged or appearing that way. Perhaps someone specializes in this kind of thing?
I've been away from firearms for a long time, and am looking forward to veiwing this forum, looks like lots of interesting people and conversation!
Sincerely, Ken

[Savvy Jack]

Was Dupont #2 labeled as such or was it labeled Shotgun Powder? Or does someone have a good photo of a #2 can I can use?

[Markopolo]

Very cool thread!!!!!

[Markopolo]

Doc1,

Nice find! The neat thing about DuPont No 1 BULK Smokeless is that it was designed to be used in case capacity loadings. It has a burning rate similar to 4198.

Having dissected early 45-70 cartridges to obtain this vintage powder for testing, I did not see any evidence of "crumbling" that Phil Sharpe has stated. Perhaps he is refering to a misuse of the powder by compressing it too much.

I tried it in the 22 Hornet to recreate the early 22 W.C.F. loading and in the 30-30 to recreate the early recommended "Mid Range" load. It worked very well in both applications.

Accuracy was extremely good in the Hornet with groups in the 1/2" range @ 50 yards. Just 5.5 grs filled the case capacity and produced velocities in the 1600 f.p.s. range.

The only negative about it is that it is hydroscopic. It can pick up moisture if not stored properly which will affect its ballistic strength.

This is the earliest can type. I do not own this can. It belongs to a Gunpowder Can Collector in Canada. It is about 4" high.
Top & Bottom
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/DupontNo1BulkSmokeless.jpg

Early DuPont Powder Guide
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/DuPont1902.jpg

28 grs. of DuPont No.1 in a 45-70 case- a capacity load....
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/DuPontNo128grs45-70.jpg

w30wcf

What is that on the top of the can????? Looks like some sort of button????

[Savvy Jack]

What is that on the top of the can????? Looks like some sort of button????

The cap

[Chev. William]

Thanks much Trey for your response. What I was looking for was a frame perhaps commemorating the era when the aforementioned items were in use, I suppose 1890 / 1910? There should be something out there either aged or appearing that way. Perhaps someone specializes in this kind of thing?
I've been away from firearms for a long time, and am looking forward to veiwing this forum, looks like lots of interesting people and conversation!
Sincerely, Ken

A good or better Art Frame Shop will have a wide range of frame material and styles to choose from to match up to your vintage pages.

Chev. William

[Savvy Jack]

Early DuPont Powder Guide
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/DuPont1902.jpg


Does anyone have a date for this publication?

[Savvy Jack]

Here is some SR80 information
238789

[swheeler]

Jack, "A Du Pont booklet published in 1903 gave the loading in the table to follow" I copied this from Complete Reloading Guide page 41 and is the same #2 data listed above.

[Savvy Jack]

Jack, "A Du Pont booklet published in 1903 gave the loading in the table to follow" I copied this from Complete Reloading Guide page 41 and is the same #2 data listed above.

Thanks,

I have acquired a few load table pamphlets and am looking for one for Dupont #2. The above will certainly do for now! I have a Complete Reloading Guide 1937 on it's way here ;-)

[John Boy]

I have a Complete Reloading Guide 1937 on it's way here
Jack, Sharpe's Complete Reloading Guide had several revisions with the 1953 being the latest with every information in the'37 issue plus thee other revisions up to the '53 revision.
Between Sharpe's '53 book and the Ideal catalogs - they are my Go To's for old rifle loading data

[Savvy Jack]

Jack, Sharpe's Complete Reloading Guide had several revisions with the 1953 being the latest with every information in the'37 issue plus thee other revisions up to the '53 revision.
Between Sharpe's '53 book and the Ideal catalogs - they are my Go To's for old rifle loading data


I was wondering if that was the case. Not knowing, I didnt want to take a chance on missing any early information. I may try to pick up a 53' at some point. I have spent way too much money over the past year!!!!

[Savvy Jack]

The neat thing about DuPont No 1 BULK Smokeless is that it was designed to be used in case capacity loadings. It has a burning rate similar to 4198.

Having dissected early 45-70 cartridges to obtain this vintage powder for testing, I did not see any evidence of "crumbling" that Phil Sharpe has stated. Perhaps he is refering to a misuse of the powder by compressing it too much.

The only negative about it is that it is hydroscopic. It can pick up moisture if not stored properly which will affect its ballistic strength.

This is the earliest can type. I do not own this can. It belongs to a Gunpowder Can Collector in Canada. It is about 4" high.
Top & Bottom
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/DupontNo1BulkSmokeless.jpg

Early DuPont Powder Guide
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/DuPont1902.jpg

28 grs. of DuPont No.1 in a 45-70 case- a capacity load....
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/DuPontNo128grs45-70.jpg

w30wcf

I do miss John

Well, I finally found an original 1900 or earlier Dupont No. 1 Rifle Powder "wrapper" load data sheet. The one he posted is said to be from 1902 and no information if it is or is not a "wrapper" data sheet.

I have been racking my brain for a very long time but I think I finally solved the puzzle.

266399

Here is the one John posted in his yeasteryear posts.
266400


The difference is noted on two items. First there is writing on the back of the one I posted.
266401

I will finish in the next post

[Savvy Jack]

Second, I noticed the wrinkles on the sheet and discovered that the sheet itself was the wrapper. Thus I made one to demonstrate/compare.
266402266403.


Then I guess the "wrapper" might look like this on the keg
266404

Anyone got anything? I am fresh out of ideas



266406

[Savvy Jack]

14 5/8" x 8"

266732

266735
266736
266737
266738

266739