.45 Liberator pistol

[Hardcast416taylor]

Got my issue of The Rifleman mag. from the NRA today. Couldn`t believe someone is making copies of the single shot .45 acp "Liberator" pistol. What I found even more eye popping was they will be sold for $599! They cost a few cents over $2 to make in the first place, now they cost $599. Never knew that a single shot VERY close range pistol that actually tore up your hand shooting it would be reproduced.Robert

[NoZombies]

I think the repro's are out there for collectors who can't get an original. I understand that.

When they start offering non-original configurations, like target sights or such, that's when it'll become totally ridiculous.

[45nut]

saw that too,, that price is fine if you are trying to fill a gap in a collection and have a surplus of cash,, but certainly not inline for those of us that might want to actually shoot for fun.

the originals supposedly go for over $2500.00 now!

[2wheelDuke]

Got my issue of The Rifleman mag. from the NRA today. Couldn`t believe someone is making copies of the single shot .45 acp "Liberator" pistol. What I found even more eye popping was they will be sold for $599! They cost a few cents over $2 to make in the first place, now they cost $599. Never knew that a single shot VERY close range pistol that actually tore up your hand shooting it would be reproduced.Robert


I got mine a couple days ago, but hadn't had a chance to read it just yet. I went and found the article after I saw your post.

I'm surprised to see that they cost the government over $2 back in the 40's. I'd think that you could stamp out something along those lines for just a couple bucks in today's money.

For a hundred or so, I'd love to have a working reproduction. For $600, I could get a much nicer piece to put into my collection.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I saw the article, too, and immediately thought that cost probably represents a lot of reverse engineering, etc.
That, and that is probably what our dollar is comparatively worth due to poor money management & inflation causing practices of our government since then. :sad:

Must be solely a "collector's substitute"- ain't no way a sane person would consider it other wise.

[paul s]

I shot a Liberator some years ago, not very pleasant experance! Nearly jumped out of my hand! Was aiming at a side of a larg hill and I think I MISSED it!

[Landric]

Is the reproduction a smooth-bore like the original?

$600, hum, CMP Garand or a Liberator replica? Tough choice. :)

[Potsy]

Reckon wonder how a 2" smoothbore would shoot with a Miha H&G 68?

[bobthenailer]

i saw a prototype about a year ago ! a friend had it , he had something to do with it ? he fired it at the gun club
i also think the only reason anyone woud want woud to fill a gap in a collection

[scrapcan]

I saw an original in the drop box (small metal can) with small instruction sheets in several languages and the 5 original cartridges in wrapper it was In Denver at the Colorado Gun Collectors Show. The asking price was $1875. I saw a very nice merkel drilling for the same money.

[John Taylor]

Is the reproduction a smooth-bore like the original?

$600, hum, CMP Garand or a Liberator replica? Tough choice. :)

It would not be legal to make it a smooth bore. To have one in a smooth bore under todays law would require a $200 stamp just like a machine gun.

[pincherpartner]

It's rifled, but I still think I'll pass on this. http://www.vintageordnance.com/

Our reproduction has a rifled barrel and discrete markings to comply with Federal law and hopefully prevent it from being unscrupulously sold as an original antique.

[NoZombies]

I saw one of the repros as well. The barrel is rifled, and they're being sold with the firing pin hole 90% drilled. They only drill 90% for liability reasons, if you drill it the rest of the way, it's your own fault what happens to you when you shoot it.

JTManley, that was actually a pretty good price! I've seen guns without the original flyer or ammo, but with pressboard box selling for $2500+

I will never own one of these, but I have to admit, it would be neat.

[the other DWS]

If you are ever in Anderson Indiana ----north and east of Indy on I-69; there is a small private military museum there in an old industrial park area. It's been several years since I visited it and I don't recall the name.
However Anderson was the home of the (GE???) "Guide Lamp" plant which as a part of its WW2 war production did sheet metal work and fabrication. That was where the Liberator pistol was made. The museum had a number of examples in various stages of assembly as well as jigs and a lot of paperwork as well as the finished product and its shipping and drop packages. It was designed as a very close range weapon with the intent that it be used to take our a German or Japanese soldier in order to take his 'real" weapon. It is my understanding that they were mostly used in the Philippines in readying for the re-invasion, and that in limited quantities.

[NHlever]

The price reflects the fact that it costs the same amount of money to produce a metal forming die for 1 part as it does a die that will produce thousands of parts. The cost of that gun is in the reverse engineering, and tooling. I'm sure if you factored in all the money spent on tooling for the originals, and compared that to the number of guns they actually produced the cost back then would have been more too. That is one of the reasons that it is hard for manufacturers to produce guns for more specialized markets. The guy producing these guns wants to make sure he gets his tooling costs back in the limited market he has.

[klcarroll]

This actually raises an interesting question: ….Do you think that there would be a market for an ultra low cost, single shot defensive pistol???

…..I’m envisioning a die-cast handgrip/receiver (with “nice” ergonomics), a “thread-in” barrel for reloading, and a hand cocked striker that rotates to provide a locked “Safety” position. Various barrel lengths and calibers could be easily offered, and with its solidly fixed barrel, it could potentially be a very accurate weapon. (The Ultimate Tackle Box Gun!)

I figure that such a pistol could probably be produced to sell for $24.95. ($19.95 without the product liability insurance! LOL!)

Kent

[Roundnoser]

Here's my take on the 600-dollar price tag on that gun...LAWYERS, LITIGATION, LAW SUITS, INSURANCE, LICENSES, PERMITS, TAXES...

Might have been better off making a non-firing replica and avoid the politicians, bureaucrats and lawyers! Without them, the price would be more like 100 bucks!

[Harry O]

I downloaded the plans for a Liberator and printed them off once. I quickly learned that there is a very big difference between a simple gun and a crude gun. This one is crude, but not simple. The stamping dies for that one must be unbelievable. Only an advanced manufacturing facility could produce them.

As I was going though the parts, I tried to figure out how the trigger, sear, and spacer for the hammer spring worked together. I never did figure that out. There has to be something there that is not shown. If anyone can explain it, I am interested.

BTW, there are also some obvious errors on the plans that are on the internet. I have absolutely no doubt that they had to buy an original to take it apart and reverse engineer it. It cannot be built from what is shown out there.

[Doc_Stihl]

I know of someone who has an original parts list with all the code named parts. I can ask if he has a set of plans as well. They go along with his liberator, full box of original ammo, drop box, and even the original wooden dowel for extraction.

[camerl2009]

neat little pistols GM made smooth bore

i dont think it shoot to good it was made as a throw away gun
with a seamless tube for a barrel

maybe round ball and shot loads :idea:

[Daddyfixit]

The irony here is that the original design criteria was to make the least expensive gun they could! If they could have done it some other way cheaper they would have!
$600 is ridiculous! Collectors that have no other way, maybe... but I would think that would be VERY few in numbers

[bbailey7821]

I got the extreme pleasure of getting to tour a Colt collectors gunroom last week. He had an example of one of these pistols there. All I can say, is that if some fool will pay over $1000 bucks for a repro of this, I would like to offer a couple of items to them for sale. Please pm me for a list of items... :mrgreen:

[hickstick_10]

The price reflects the fact that it costs the same amount of money to produce a metal forming die for 1 part as it does a die that will produce thousands of parts. The cost of that gun is in the reverse engineering, and tooling. I'm sure if you factored in all the money spent on tooling for the originals, and compared that to the number of guns they actually produced the cost back then would have been more too. That is one of the reasons that it is hard for manufacturers to produce guns for more specialized markets. The guy producing these guns wants to make sure he gets his tooling costs back in the limited market he has.

Give this man a cigar because hes correct.

thousands of dollars in stamping dies and do you think these guys will be selling a few thousand of these? Unlikely.

Probably just enough to break even.

[MtGun44]

NHlever is exactly right.

When you are choosing a manufacturing method you have to consider the cost to set up
the production line versus the number to be made. For a production run of 10, you
usually just hog it out of solid stock. If you go up to 1000, maybe you can investment
cast and then machine. If you are going to make 10 million, you can afford to spend a
LOT on tooling so that each of the 10 million parts costs 15% less than some other
method.

The GM Guide Lamp division was selected to make this pistol because they were experts
in making very complex and relatively precision headlamp assemblies. Need accurate shape
on the reflectors to get a good beam, plus the multiple nesting rims that permit adjustment
up and down and left/right yet hold alignment, plus polished covers and trim rings - all the
cheapest possible BUT with large production quantities.

Expensive tooling, but the final cost per part is very low - ONLY if you make about
a million or two.

The reproducer is forced to use production methods that are very uneconomical for a small
production run in order to make it like the original.

Bill

[gnoahhh]

Geez, now you guys made me feel bad. I was at an estate auction in Pennsylvania around 25 years ago. Amongst the old guy's stuff was a Liberator in it's original cardboard box, with the cartoon instruction sheet, wooden dowel rod "extractor" and a few wartime steel-cased .45's. It went for $80. I wanted it bad, but I had already bid on, and won, a 1922M2 Springfield for $280. The $300 I had in my pocket at the start of the evening didn't cover them both. I did my best to talk my Dad into getting it but he wouldn't sit still for it. I remember that evening like it was yesterday, and always regretted not being able to get that pistol. Now I regret it even more!

[Doc_Stihl]

The legend goes that it takes longer to fire, unload, and reload the pistol than it did to manufacture it.

[Bullshop]

My liberator is made by Bond Arms. Its a two shot that will shoot 3" 410's or 45 colts.
It will handle a 454 Casull and I even use 460 S&W brass for a tri ball load.
For close in situations that is quite a tool.

[the other DWS]

Remember too that in WW II production economics actual per unit costs were not a major consideration. Today's articles, for instance, comparing the Thompson vrs. the 'Grease gun" tend to dwell on the per-unit cost factor. In actual wartime economics factors like production time, skilled labor vrs unskilled labor, and the cost/availability of raw material stocks were of more significance.

the "libertors" intended functional role was as a disposable pistol---very little more than an improvised "zip-gun"---used to obtain a real rifle or pistol

[Grapeshot]

This baby was made to get close to an enemy and shoot him, preferably in the head, to get his weapon and ammo to be able to kill more enemy soldiers at a longer range and to supply the resistance the means to do so.

I wonder if it'll come to that in this country when the Government finally outlaws guns.

[shooterg]

I think most of us could cobble together a "zip gun" for a few bucks if the need arises...

[zxcvbob]

Wouldn't a dagger be just as effective (and a lot quieter)?

[MtGun44]

Typically, no, esp if you are not real strong. Can't kill someone as definitively with
a knife in a short time.

Bill

[waksupi]

It is not easy to kill someone with a knife, who does not want to be killed. They protest, for some reason.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Seems far better to me to be prepared to arm a squad or section today than to have to cobble together a "zipper" and try to sneek up on a feller who has no desire to die. I am right fond of stand off tactics.

[cajun shooter]

I have a friend who has two of these guns. They had a piece of metal on the bottom if the handle that slid off with the extra rounds hidden in the handle. It was dropped in areas that had resistance fighters. It was a smooth bore and meant to fire the GI 45 ACP round at close distance to do as has been stated and that is to relieve any enemy of his weapons and ammo. Any gun that will fire is better than a knife as size and strength are taken out of the equation. A 110 lb woman can out fight a 250 lb man every time if she uses the gun as intended.

[x101airborne]

This actually raises an interesting question: ….Do you think that there would be a market for an ultra low cost, single shot defensive pistol???
Kent

:kidding: Yeah, we could get into mock street muggings and engage agressive targets with reloads at 10 feet. Wait, Wait, I gotta reload. :kidding:

[Jbar4Ranch]

The legend goes that it takes longer to fire, unload, and reload the pistol than it did to manufacture it.

Kind of true... sort of...

A Liberator pistol came off the assembly line approximately every six seconds, which is where that myth came from, but the components for that particular pistol most definitely did not enter the assembly line only six seconds prior.

HERE'S (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192440) a post I made on TFL a couple years back about shooting one of my two.

There was even a two shot prototype built and considered for production.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/jbar4ranch/2shotLiberator.jpg