Ranch Dog TLC323-170-RF in WIN M-94

[roysha]

I recently purchased this mold for my 1952 vintage WIN 94. Cast up a batch and sized them .3215.(that's just how they come out of the Lyman die, I didn't plan it that way) The as cast diameter is .323+/- so the sizing is not excessive.
I loaded one for a test round and even seating to the crimp groove, I am engraving the ogive of the bullet .035"-.040" which makes for a bit difficult chambering, not impossible, but certainly not as smooth as I would like.
Now I know that Ranch Dog has designed these bullets with Marlin in mind but it seems logical that the chambers would be enough similar between the MAR and the WIN that this situation should not exist. I can't seat any deeper or the GC will be below the junction of the shoulder and neck which is not acceptable.
Has anyone else experienced this? If so, how did you remedy it? I'm thinking of opening the throat enough to allow this bullet to chamber freely but hesitate to do that if there is some other simpler way to make this bullet work.

[Ranch Dog]

The only way to know for sure what the difference is in the Marlin vs. Wincester chamber is to compare your chamber cast against mine which is here:
Marlin 336RC Chamber (http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC323170RF/chamber/chamber01.gif)

Personally, I would not change my rifle to accomodiate a bullet. I use to feel like you do concerning the seating of the bullet but my work with the TLC311-165-RF and my 30-30's have changed my mind. It hasn't mattered one bit with Max pressure tested loads. I'm shooting great groups and killing a lot of animals with those rifles.

My first question is are you sure you need a .3215" bullet? My understanding from your text is that this is just happenstance. While working on this design I encountered a huge variation between barrels. I found no other cartridge with such a wide spread of bore diameters. That silly .005" can make a huge difference. Is there anyway to see what a .321" bullet will do? If not, I would just seat the bullet deep enough to chamber the cartridge without resistance and then see how it shoots. As I mentioned with my 30-30s, I have 5 different OAL that I use. Not the bullets fault, just inconsistent cuttings across the years of manufacture. The newest rifle, a 2010 model, having the shortest. I crimp the bullet on the ogive with a Lee FCD, which will work with the 32 WS in most cases, and call it a day. One day, when I really run out of things to do, I'm going to assign lots of brass to each rifle and trim the cases so that I can use the crimp groove on the bullet but I am no longer going to worry about what happens to the base of the bullet.

That is what I would do before I cut on any rifle.

[roysha]

Michael:

I really don't care where the base of the bullet is and would seat to any depth necessary to make it work, except for some concerns expressed on this site in various forums regarding the potential loss of the GC if the GC is seated below the junction of neck and shoulder with the resultant possibility of the GC sticking in the bore. (Talk about a run on sentence:D) Therefore the concern with seating too deep.

If you feel this is not an issue, I will seat deeper. Also I guess I need to slug the bore to find specifically my barrel diameter which I should have done before I even started this project, but laziness is an overiding factor in my life.

I will, after Christmas, make a chamber cast to compare with your dimensions. Interestingly, all my manuals list the SAAMI case length at 2.038"-2.040" but when I checked my brass, all from the same box of once fired W-W Super ammo (I'm only working with 20 cases at this point while working up a load) they ranged in length from 2.042" to 2.027". I trimmed everything to the shortest length so I could get a uniform crimp. I notice that is still .002 longer than your print shows.

[Ranch Dog]

I've noticed the same thing about 32 WS brass, it is all over the place. When you consider the huge variation in barrels, this cartridge is a mess. That said, it is one of the most accurate and best performing cartridges I shoot. I have shot it with several powders and it has simply been loading it through intervals to max and letting it rip. You didn't mention OAL. What are you using?

I would be concerned with the gas check issue if this case had more of a shoulder on it, say like the 35 Rem, but even with that rifle I would still see what happens before I did the actual work on the rifle. If you have accuracy issues, one good way to check for gas check departure is to shoot through a rather large sheet of butcher paper about 15' from the end of the barrel. That is far enough away to give you two holes. Of course, another good way is if the check drills your chronograph!

[Three44s]

I wonder if you want to push your '52 vintage Model 94 linkages long term to engrave that bullet while chambering?

I'm no expert on them but this thought occurred to me while I was starting loading for a '22 model 94 in .25-35 and converting .30-30 brass.

Three 44s

[Ranch Dog]

What I would be more concerned about is powder compression issues if the powder choice is one that fills the case. I think lubed lead/brass gives to steel even with a solid crimp. I ran some numbers and looked at some of my pressure trace data. Based on my BL-C(2) load, each .010" reduction in OAL increases pressure 500 PSI.

[grubbylabs]

My thought may be out of place here but I will say it any way just in case, other wise carry on and have a nice day.


I just recently purchased my first lever and bought some Hornady lever evolution ammo. When I reloaded the brass I notice that I was short on my COL, the book said 2.505, seating at the bottom on the crimp groove I was at 2.380 it was enough that I can fit 7 rounds of .444 in the tube instead of 6 of the Hornady rounds. I don't know if all their lever evolution brass is short like that but it might be worth a look. I called Hornady and asked if their new brass from Midway was that short and they said no it is at normal spec. The factory Lever Evolution rounds have brass that is shorter because of the bullet design.

Again hope this helps if I missed the point then carry on and have a great day and sorry for the interruption.

[Ranch Dog]

grubby,

No matter what Hornady says, their current production brass for the 444, 45-70, and 450 Marlin has become useless for cast bullet shooters seating bullets to fill the lead/step/throat. The "nominal" length is defined by Hornady to suit their pointed bullets that require extra short brass.

I've always preferred the Remington brand for the 444 and there are plenty of options for the 45-70 but they have really hurt the 450 Marlin as they are the soul provider. I have a hunting guide friend that really got the big bore levergun bug from me. He went out in 2009 and bought all three rifles and has been gearing up. He bought the Hornady brass from MidwayUSA and did what we all need to start doing, send it back.

I've always really liked Hornady products but a couple of things have gotten under my skin and I'm not sure I will continue to buy their products. First is the brass issue. Second is that they do not say a word when a State proposes a lead ban, or at least I have not been able to find a statement in defense of the use of lead in bullets.

[grubbylabs]

So their standard production brass is just as short as the factory ammo they produce for the lever evolution?


Well at any rate I was wondering if the shorter brass would help with the overall length problem discussed by the OP.

[roysha]

Michael

I slugged the bore and it came out virtually exactly on .321. This was 2" from the muzzle and 2" ahead of the chamber.

Then I made a chamber cast and discovered there is NO leade or throat. The full depth rifling starts immediately in front of the chamber. I've been working with, and on, guns for over 50 years and had never run into this situation, except of course, custom guns or special applications such as Schuetzen Guns and such.

I got out a box of factory ammo and discovered the bullet ahead of the case mouth was .312. Pulled the bullet and below the case mouth it measured .321, making the factory ammo essentially a bore rider style bullet.

I carefully trimmed away the groove (raised part of the rifling on the chamber casting) so I could measure the bore diameter. It measured .315. This explains why I was running into the ogive of the cast bullet.

If I cut the throat to .321 and use the .0005 oversize of the projectile ogive as a centering device, I think that should actually enhance the accuracy a bit. I don't believe the .0005 squeeze would be much, if any, hindrance to chambering since it would only be for aprox. .090" or so. Even though this rifle is in very good+ condition, it has little if any collector value so that is not a factor.

[jtaylor1960]

I am having the same problem with that mold in both my Marlin and Winchester guns.I size my bullets to .323".Ithink if I were to size to .321"it might fix things in the one gun.It slugged at .318".I could have avoided any of this if I would have made up a dummy round and tried it first.I'm thinking that a slight trimming of my brass will fix the problem in both guns.The Ranch Dog bullet is about as close to perfect as you can get considering the variations from gun to gun.I have also sized the nose of cast bullets before loading to help ensure a good fit in other guns with the same issues.

[6pt-sika]

When the test molds for the Ranch Dog 323-170GC came out I tried them in three seperate Marlin rifles in 32 Special . A 336SC of 1950 vinatge , a Marlin model 1936A and a Marlin Model 1893 of about 1916 vintage . All of those rifles shot the bullet well with 21 or 22 grains of XMP5744 . At the same time I also tried it in a Marlin model 1893 in 32-40 this was a 1906 rifle and it truely loved the bullet with a lighter charge of XMP5744 .
I have a friend that owns a nice old Pre 64 Winchester 94 Carbine in 32 Special . I borrowed his rifle and tried the same loads I tried in the Marlin's same seating depth etc and his rifle liked the bullet and powder charge almost as well as my Marlin's !

Oh yeah all the bullets I used were aircooled wheelweights sized in a .323" die .