No gc molds for 452 hp?

[Okie2]

Is there a reason I can't find a gas check mold for a 452 hollow point? Need one in 200 grains for my soon to arrive 460 Rowland conversion kit for my Kimber 1911. Should be shooting around 1400 to 1450 fps & thought the gas check would be a help. Anybody ever cast for this round. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Scott

[bhn22]

Most semi-auto .452 bullets are fired in 45 ACPs, and gas checks are an unnecessary expense at 850-900 fps. Probably the simplest thing to do is find a quality 2 cavity 230 gr gascheck mould (shop around), then send it to Hollowpoint Mold Service for a double cavity hollowpoint conversion. It's run you about $100.00 to convert your mould. If you're no especially wed to the hollowpoint idea, you could order a mould from one of the custom makers like LBT or Mountain Molds with all the features you want, except for the hollowpoint which neither maker offers. Personally, I use an LBT 230 gr LFN mould and don't worry about the hollowpoint at all for my 1911s. I think SAECO may still offer a 230 gr RN gascheck mould, but am not certain.


http://www.hollowpointmold.com/

[MtGun44]

GCs are unnecessary in any normal handgun velocity in my experience. I will make
an exception for the Contenders in rifle calibers or other pocket rifles. I mean
any of the normal handgun calibers, including magnums. I have not personally
done .454 Casull or .500 Mag, so cannot comment there either.

I shoot max .44 mag and .357 mag velocities all the time with PBs and air cooled
wwt alloy. Many will say you need 25+BHN and GCs for high velocity. Not the
case in my considerable handgun experience. Not saying that GCs or hard will
not work, just that I have proven that I do not need them to make accurate loads
at full velocities that do not lead.

GCs are for rifles.

Bill

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I load for the rowland. I have used NOE 45BD mold...a 220 grn gc HP. It has to be seated deep to fit in a mag, so be sure to adjust your charge weight. I plan on trying out my Mihec 200 grn HP mold (plain based) and pushing it hard. I tend to agree with MTGUN44 that GC may not always be necessary, so long as your alloy and fit are correct....even at higher pressures. I guess I will find out. I plan on loading some up tonight. But, the 220 grn gas checked HP's shot great and left zero leading. Didn't chrono them, but figure they were around 1250-1300 fps. Recoil was more straight back into the hand and there was very little muzzle flip. The Clark Custom compensator WORKS!

[Okie2]

Hey thanks for the info...sent an email to NOE to see if the 45BD is still available.... Is the 4535 too large for the 460 rowand? Thought I would need a 452? Any info would be appreciated. Looking to pop some deer with the 1911...sounds like fun! Scott

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

4345??? as in .4535"? Mine drop at .453 and I size to .452". The NOE 45bd is best suited towards wheelguns because it has a wide meplat (HP). Like i said with the recoil it tends to shift the rounds in the magazine towards the front of the pistol and they tend to get caught up on the top of the magazine and don't want to feed. THIS is why I am trying my other plain based HP mold (it has a narrower meplat (HP). One thing to consider is that pushing a 200 grain HP as fast as you are and getting proper expansion may be difficult and WILL require much testing. You are going to have to get your alloy hard enough to not over expand, but not too hard or the boolit becomes too brittle. I am no expert with cast HP's, but I am sure some else will chime in here. Good luck and keep me posted. I will let you know the results of my test with the plain based bullet.

[WM5L]

I am kinda like OKIE2. I would think a GC would be a must on a 460 Rowland when loaded "full house". I lead up EVERY hand gun I own when shooting WW at high velocity. Maybe someone could sell me a hand full of non GC bullets and tell me what to load them with and I will try them. I personally don't like using GC if I don't have too. I am in the market for a good 230 grain flat nose mold to use in this gun for "plinking" or "stump shooting"

[bhn22]

You're missing the point. The bullets have to fit the barrel properly, and the alloy has to be compatible with the chamber pressures. Most commercially cast bullets fail on one or both counts. Besides, .452 might not be the correct diameter for you.

[GLL]

NOE 45-210BD with & without GC
http://www.fototime.com/54CCEF5FE79FF90/orig.jpg

Jerry

[44man]

No need for a check. As your velocity increases just make the boolit harder. Too soft and a boolit will skid the rifling too much.
I shoot a heavy PB out of my 45-70 revolver at 1632 fps and just use WD WW metal. Air cooled or a softer alloy NEEDS a check or accuracy suffers.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

OK, shot some plain based, air cooled WW boolits thru the 460 Rowland. Bad idea. Leading was AWEFUL! Figured I would try it... lol! Gonna try water droppin' some. Not sure if it will help, but willing to try. If all else fails at least I have the NOE 45 BD mold that works extremely well in my converted Kimber. BTW, didn't chrono the PB loads. They were loaded with an OAL of 1.250" and 11.6 grains Longshot (starting load from Hodgdon is 12.0 and max is 13.8). Will post results of Water dropped WW loads after xmas.

[Okie2]

Thanks...keep us (me) posted...still looking for mold options...hate having to buy factory lead! My kit should be in this week...still need better sights...have the factory adj target sights...all black...can't see them anymore...need adj & bright. Scott

[MtGun44]

Just "shot some and they leaded badly" is zero information.

What groove diameter barrel and what boolit diameter? If you do not know the
answer to these questions, your experiment was a waste. Fit is absolutely
critical to proper boolit performance and no leading. In a revolver, the throat
diameter is critical for proper fit, and throat diam should ideally be .001 larger
than the groove diam. For semi-autos or single shots, it is simpler - just fit
to groove diam.

You need to shoot AC WWts sized to .001 to .002 larger than the groove diameter.

I shoot PB AC WWts all the time in .357 mag and .44 mag at least as fast as you are
talking about, maybe faster, with NO leading. You can do this too, but the boolit MUST
fit the groove diam plus a bit larger. Harder is NOT the primary solution to leading, FIT
is the primary solution to leading. IMO, GCs are a bandaid solution to a boolit design
and fit problem. They certainly do work, absolutely no question, but in my experience
are easily eliminated by proper boolit and lube selection and proper fit with no harder
alloy needed than air cooled wheel weights for all 'normal' pistol cartridges (skipping
the pocket rifles which behave - like rifles).

I can regularly expect 2" groups from the bench at 50 yds with my more accurate pistols
with Keith and LBT type boolit designs in .357 Mag and .44 Mag.

Bill

[Okie2]

I had assumed that IllinoisCH had also sized them to .452 as he stated above when referring to the 45 BD bullets...fired from same gun as 45 BD's that he said shot great. Would assume that leading was caused by the lack of gc...not bullet size or barrel....He just wanted a bullet that wouldn't hang up.... But, I could be wrong. Scott ps...Installed the Clark kit today....bad *** looking gun...can't wait.

[MtGun44]

"assumed leading caused by lack of gc"

A very common, and fundamentally 'limited' assumption. The key issue is that a poorly
suited boolit may work OK (not lead) with a GC, so the logical assumption is that GCs are needed
to stop leading, which is A way to stop leading. NOT "the only" way, which is what most
folks stop at.

Proper plain based boolits will run perfectly well up to at least 1300-1500 fps range in
magnum handguns made from air cooled wheel weight alloy with excellent accuracy and
no leading.

Bill

[WM5L]

I guess I will throw in my 2 cents on leading a barrel. I have read alot about casting lead bullets,their affects on barrels and targets/game. Most people feel like making them harder or bigger in diameter will negate the affect of leading. I feel the real issue is how hot you powder burns behind the bullet when fired through the gun and what kind of lube you use. I don't remember where I saw it but I remember the meat of the article. It was the faster you push any bullet the hotter the gases are behind said bullet. When this happens you are melting a tiny amount of the lead on the base of the bullet (and part of the lube witch acts as a gas seal of sorts) it will build up in the chamber throats and in the barrel. The next bullet behind it just smears in onto the bore and throats. There is no free lunch. Softer bullets (lead vs jacketed ones) are gonna leave residue behind in the gun when fired. Some more than others. There are things that can be done to slow it down but it will happen sooner or later in any gun that I have ever messed with anyway. Do not get me wrong I love shooting lead but when it is time to put meat on the table I am shooting commercial jacketed bullets. This again is just my opnion on the matter.

[Moonie]

WM5L, one problem with your (and the articles theory) is that the amount of time involved. In the fraction of a second involved the burning powder cannot heat the lead base to its melting temp.

Also, just my opinion on the matter.

What will is if the boolit is too small and allows burning gas to blow by the boolit. As is said frequently here, fit is king.

[WM5L]

WM5L, one problem with your (and the articles theory) is that the amount of time involved. In the fraction of a second involved the burning powder cannot heat the lead base to its melting temp.

Also, just my opinion on the matter.

What will is if the boolit is too small and allows burning gas to blow by the boolit. As is said frequently here, fit is king.

If the heat and flame from a revolver cartridge can and will cut a notch in the top strap (made of steel way harder than lead) of a revolver "flame cutting" as it is called it will most assuredly melt part of the bullet base. How much is the issue. It won't take that much lead smeared into the rifling of a barrel to foul it. Were talking about tiny amounts here less than 1/100 of a grain or less. The reason the author felt a gas check works is because it protects the base form the hot gasses. It makes sense to me. Lead has a lot lower melting temp than steel.

[theperfessor]

Lead also has a higher melting point than lead-tin-antimony alloys, so wouldn't that make WW alloy melt easier? Don't confuse gas erosion, which cuts undersize bullets and revolver topstraps alike with heat transfer.

[bhn22]

A significant portion of the powder in a handgun load doesn't even burn in the barrel. It burns outside the barrel after the bullets well on it's way to the target, and show up as muzzle flash. Try recovering some of your fired bullets & check the bases to see how much melting takes place. Often times, you can see the impressions of unburned powder granules in the base of the bullet under the right conditions. I've especially noticed it with Bullseye & soft alloys.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Groove diameter is .451", AC WW's sized to .452" (sorry, but I don't know what kind of car they came off), 50/50 Lars carnaube red and BAC blend lube, 11.6 grains Hodgdon longshot, COL was 1.250", Rounds were fired at the following GPS coordinates: 38*59'15.99N, 89*57'56.51W, Elevation was 599 feet, Temperature was 34*F, Humidity was 81%, Pressure was 30.42 mm HG, Visibility was 10 miles. I shot the first 10 rounds from the resting position right handed. The next ten shots were off hand with my left hand. I guess I was a little vague with the information I put in the previous post. Sorry! :D

[Okie2]

Too funny...have a good holiday!:-)

[MtGun44]

OK, CoyoteHunter,

THAT is a thorough report. :D

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume the lat/long are not key to the problem. :bigsmyl2:
What boolit design? All I saw was 'smaller meplat plain base'.

First, I would go about .001 larger diameter, and then I would change the lube to
LBT blue or 50-50 NRA formula, if you have them.

So we have two leading cases here, it would seem.

Did I miss it, did Oakie post info on the boolit design you are using?

I'm wondering about lube quantity, and general design issues in both cases. Not all boolits
are equally well designed.

I have tested 8 BHN Keith .44s against WD WWs (much harder) and found no difference in my
S&Ws that I was testing in. No leading in either case, loads were heavy 2400 and H110,
I'd have to go back and check the records to be sure exactly which. The point was that I
saw no difference in very soft and very hard non-GC boolits at near max .44 mag pressures
and velocities. Accy was good and no leading with either.

I am NOT saying that harder boolits will not work, or may not solve some particular problem
in some particular gun. But, I have had situations where TOO hard and undersized CAUSED
the leading and inaccuracy. I have fixed multiple problems with softer and very often
with larger boolits. Larger is very often the fix for many leading and accy issues.

I have experience that shows that soft boolits of a good design with a good lube in a
good pistol can work just fine and match the results of hard versions of the same boolit.

I will not say that any particular 'fix' always works or never works, because guns are pretty
often a thing unto themselves.

I also have to come down with the perfessor on not melting boolit bases because the time
seems way too short. I think that there can be gas cutting which removes lead from the sides
of undersized boolits but this would seem to be more of a mechanical effect than a melting.
Gas cuts top straps with mechanical erosion due to high velocity particles in the gases.

Bill

[Bass Ackward]

I have two S&W 625s that are opposite examples of cast bullet theory.

One leads. No matter what you do. Soft or hard, big or small, good lube or bad or both. It just leads with PB.

The other one shoots soft or hard, big or small, good lube or bad and never leads ANYWHERE. This gun actually prefers bore diameter PB and it has the biggest throats!

These are the same shells in both.

Funny thing is, that they are both superbly accurate when you swallow your pride and get passed the leading and do what the gun wants so that it can produce the target you want.

My points are: that you can do everything possible to avoid leading and still get it in some guns. Some guns, just won't shoot with the techniques that stop leading. So what good is that?

Leading is NOT always bad. If you get leading, you need to work up the load AFTER the bore condition stabilizes. In this case, I use soft lead to lead up quick (few shells) and then rock hard to position the leading and shoot well. Both guns actually shoots best with bore diameter slugs. They just take different roads to get there.

Then just hope you never have to clean. :grin: Or .... bite the bullet and use a GC.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

MtGun44,

I am using the Group buy mold from MP molds (Miha) that drops a 200 grain .453" HP's (the one with round or pentagonal hp pins) from a brass mold http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1050193&postcount=4 ). The lube groove is rather generous, so I don't think that is an issue. One other thing I may want to consider is firelapping the barrel. This is a brand new barrel from Clark Custom. BUT, since the mold drops them at 453 and I size yo 452, i will try shooting them , .002 over groove diameter. After all, this is what I have to do for 9mm. I will try shooting them .002 over, air dropped...and if that proves no success then i will try hardening them a bit and shooting them .002 over. Thanks for all the help and information guys!!!!!

[44man]

I guess I will throw in my 2 cents on leading a barrel. I have read alot about casting lead bullets,their affects on barrels and targets/game. Most people feel like making them harder or bigger in diameter will negate the affect of leading. I feel the real issue is how hot you powder burns behind the bullet when fired through the gun and what kind of lube you use. I don't remember where I saw it but I remember the meat of the article. It was the faster you push any bullet the hotter the gases are behind said bullet. When this happens you are melting a tiny amount of the lead on the base of the bullet (and part of the lube witch acts as a gas seal of sorts) it will build up in the chamber throats and in the barrel. The next bullet behind it just smears in onto the bore and throats. There is no free lunch. Softer bullets (lead vs jacketed ones) are gonna leave residue behind in the gun when fired. Some more than others. There are things that can be done to slow it down but it will happen sooner or later in any gun that I have ever messed with anyway. Do not get me wrong I love shooting lead but when it is time to put meat on the table I am shooting commercial jacketed bullets. This again is just my opnion on the matter.
This is not true, you will NOT melt lead. What happens is that if a soft boolit skids the rifling too much and opens the boolit at the last base band, gas can squirt past the boolit. That force can erode lead from the boolit.
I have shot 50-50 PB boolits near 1700 fps with zero leading but only my accuracy suffered. A gas check brought accuracy in line with harder boolits.
Sometimes soft does not mean leading yet an air cooled WW boolit can lead more then a water dropped or even a softer boolit.
Lube does NOT seal gas.
None of my revolvers have been cleaned in a year and I will not get any lead from them. Accuracy does not change, EVER, for me.
The gas check helps stop boolit skid and aids rifling grip but if you have a boolit too soft that will not start to apply grip to the rifling, you will exceed the check, still skid and open gas channels. You can lead a bore with gas checked boolits as easy as a soft PB.
No powder heat will melt a boolit base because it is applied for too short a duration. PRESSURE at the base is another thing and is what causes leading. Slump, skid and leakage is what needs cured.