How do you anneal your cases?

[Casting Timmy]

It seems like there's a lot of variance on how hot people heat there brass, but only two options on cooling it down. Just thought a poll would show us all what's the majority.

[gcollins]

You don't want to over heat the brass, you want the heat on the neck only!
G

[jmorris]

Not enough is better than too much. There is a sticky on a machine I built at the top of this forum.


This video is just right. The neck is fully annealed and the case can be held immediately afterward.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/th_nottoohot.jpg (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/?action=view&current=nottoohot.mp4)

This video shot when I first got it running shows them being over done. Note the flame color changing from blue to orange, you don’t want that.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/th_annealer.jpg (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/?action=view&current=annealer.mp4)



This is a good read on the subject. http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

[Dan Cash]

I use a 500 degree Temmp Lac crayon to mark the case on the area to be annealed and at the bottom limit of annealing. The case is placed on a rotating mandrel and moved into the torch flame. It is held there until the crayon marks in the anneal field melt but the mark at the bottom limit has not yet turned color. At this point the case is dumped from the mandrel into water to arrest the migration of heat. After I establish the time required to achieve the annealing area temperatuure desired, the crayon is no longer used but instead, the exposure to the flame is timed.

[nanuk]

does anyone use molten lead?

seems to me you could adjust the temp, and using fingers tell when the base is getting warm and water drop.

with some experimenting, you could establish an optimum temp, and time.

[Casting Timmy]

I read the 6mmbr.com article and quiet a few others. I do think that it's interesting on the non-casting gun websites they talk about the dangers of lead fumes as why not to dip the cases in lead.

I also think it's interesting some of the information out there is contradictory. Some sites say the brass can be air cooled or water dropped and other sites say that it has to be water dropped to anneal.

I think it's neat to see how the majority does it.

[GRUMPA]

does anyone use molten lead?


Yeah I do cause for me its the easiest. during casting sessions I just dunk the case into the lead for about 5 seconds (just past the shoulder) and put it in water. Seems to work just fine for me.

[Wayne Smith]

I do a slow count as I hold the first one in the melt at 600 degrees + and drop it in water when I can't hold it any more. Then I put on a glove and do the rest to the same count.

[Artful]

I tried the propane and found using the lead pot much easier - dip in oil, dip in lead, drop in water. control the heat with the thermostat on your lead pot fingers tell if it's getting too hot. When I did use propane it was alway tough to get consistant results. I'd guess the newer mechanized annealer's like I see on youtube may be quicker than lead pot but sure cost a lot more also.

[Von Gruff]

Not enough is better than too much. There is a sticky on a machine I built at the top of this forum.


This video is just right. The neck is fully annealed and the case can be held immediately afterward.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/th_nottoohot.jpg (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/?action=view&current=nottoohot.mp4)

This is a good read on the subject. http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Very good video and read on the 6mmbr site, and I had read it some time back when I was sorting my own annealing method. I see no need to water drop if the polished case is not taken past the blue - stage into any type of glow so do mine in good light.

Von Gruff.

[Dan Cash]

The only reason I dump the hot case into water is to have some place to put it. Dumping into an empty bucket dings the case mouth. dumping on the bench is a hazzard and I don't want the heat migration.

[jmorris]

does anyone use molten lead?

seems to me you could adjust the temp, and using fingers tell when the base is getting warm and water drop.



Water in the same area as molten lead is asking for trouble.

[Moonie]

Water in the same area as molten lead is asking for trouble.

Actually there is a sticky about this, water on top of the lead isn't a problem, it is when the water gets under the surface that you have an issue.

[jmorris]

Actually there is a sticky about this, water on top of the lead isn't a problem, it is when the water gets under the surface that you have an issue.

I only posted that because of (bad) experience on the subject. I have seen the myth busters stuff but if you play with snakes you’ll get bit sooner or later. Devine intervention is a good thing but don’t count on it.

[rwsem]

I'm archaic; I stick the de-primed brass on a coat hanger (taped so it doesn't slide all the way down). I sit in a very dim, almost dark, room and rotate the case to heat the neck/ shoulder area, until it just starts to discolor, over a propane torch. I slide the case off the coat hanger and let it air-cool.

[montana_charlie]

Couldn't take part in your poll...because the correct answer isn't there.
CM

[runfiverun]

it's all about the temp the brass gets.
i have seen everything from 615 to 725 printed in various articles.
i think if you are doing it every load to four then the lower temps do okay.
and if just doing an anneal every ten times, or for case forming, you want the higher temp.
but glowing red is too hot,i use that color for completely softening cases to swage with.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

I rarely anneal but when I do I simply set the case in a pan of water up to the base of the neck and use a propane torch. As soon as I see the slight darkening/discoloration of the neck I tip it over and do another one. I mainly only anneal when converting cases to a different caliber. Ex. - 243 to 308, 257 Roberts to 6.5X55, 7.62X39 to 6PPC etc. It is slow but has done an acceptable job for me. My first attempts many, many years ago were with the "red glow" and then tip the case over but they were much to soft and ruined cases. I see in a post above Montana Charlie disagrees with this practice and I would be curious if he might post his method for a comparison. Merry Christmas Mike

[montana_charlie]

I see in a post above Montana Charlie disagrees
The answer I would mark in the poll would say, "Polished case, good light, heat until blue color is visible."

You can stand cases in water if you wish, but I like to spin them in the flame.
You can quench them in water if you wish, but that doesn't change the hardness (or softness) of the metal.
A bucket of water IS a handy place to store hot brass until it cools.
But then you have to dry it and deal with any tarnish the heat and water may cause.

For those who need visual instruction, this guy does a pretty good job...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbRdJqyFDGY

CM

[woody1]

Charlie's right about the water quench. It is not needed for the anneal. I water drop to halt the heat migration. I don't want any anneal past the shoulder so to make sure, they hit the water. Regards, Woody

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

Thanks Montana........ I use the water to avoid getting the shoulder too hot and the neck color is a dark blue, almost purple, when I tap it over. I've never polished the case neck but am going to give it a try and see if it affects the color as it heats. I am also retired and working with this stuff keeps my mind and body busy, otherwise I would be bored to tears and probably go crazy. As it is, my wife tells me I'm driving her crazy trying to keep the checkbook balanced. I do tend to "forget" to tell her about some of the "goodies" that show up here in the mailbox from time to time ........... Mike

[montana_charlie]

Thanks Montana........ I use the water to avoid getting the shoulder too hot and the neck color is a dark blue, almost purple, when I tap it over.You might like to watch that video I linked to. His 'blue' (and mine) has no hint of 'purple' in it.

Harkening to my days back in art class, I recall that if you mix the two primary colors, red and blue, you get purple.

It sounds like you are getting some red in with your blue...and red is a 'bad thing' for annealing brass.

CM

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

[QUOTE=montana_charlie;1100548]You might like to watch that video I linked to. His 'blue' (and mine) has no hint of 'purple' in it.

I watched the video and at the end he shows 3 annealed cases. Mine are the same dark color as the one on the left. That's the "dark bluish" color I look for. He does take his annealing a little farther down the case than I do. The water method I use stops the discoloration just a bit below the shoulder in an almost perfect line around the case. I did a few and compared the results this evening on some old 30-06 LC63 brass and actually held them up to the screen to see. I just haven't figured out how to post photo's or one would be on here. I did like his method of spinning them with a drill and will try that sometime and will lighten the annealing color after his explanation it takes approx. 1000 degrees to get them that dark and it's a bit too much heat. Thank you for taking the time to post this info for an old dog that is still capable of learning new tricks. Fact is, it probably assisted quite a few more people than just me. Watching the snow blow and listening to the wind howl on this fine winter night.
Mike

[markshere2]

I tried the propane and found using the lead pot much easier - dip in oil, dip in lead, drop in water. control the heat with the thermostat on your lead pot fingers tell if it's getting too hot. When I did use propane it was alway tough to get consistant results. I'd guess the newer mechanized annealer's like I see on youtube may be quicker than lead pot but sure cost a lot more also.

I tried dipping in my lead pot... once.

I wound up with a lot of lead on my brass because I never heard of dipping in oil first.

D'OH!

Maybe I'll try it again.. after I RTFI!

[liljohnnie]

This is exactly how i do my annealing. As a matter of fact i think i got the idea from this video. But rather than using a socket i have made very simple but crude drill fixtures from some wooden dowel and drill rod dedicated to a specific caliber,i.e. .223, 30-06 etc.
Ammosmith video (http://youtu.be/kgD5D0Wzu-c):drinks:

[rbuck351]

I too use the lead dip. Set the pot temp to about 650/700, dip in oil or smear neck shoulder with sizing lube ( inside too ) and hold about mid shoulder in lead until feel heat in fingers while counting. Drop in water. After I have figured out how long it takes to feel heat, I use medical clamps to hold case as it keeps my hand from being right over the pot. It's fast, simple and does a very even job and you are sure the brass is not going to get any hotter than the lead. I don't anneal a lot but this does seem to work very well and I already had everything I need.

[Hard_Cast]

Y'all are absolutely right, water dropping is not necessary to anneal brass. Brass work hardens and the ONLY way to soften or return it back to original state is through heat. HOWEVER, rapidly cooling after annealing the neck is very important to stop the flow of heat down the case.

If you're not water dropping, you ARE annealing further down the case than you think.....
A temp stick is the only way to know how hot you are getting those cases.

[jmorris]

If you're not water dropping, you ARE annealing further down the case than you think.....
A temp stick is the only way to know how hot you are getting those cases.

Heat transfer in brass is pretty quick but if you can hold the case right after it is annealed, heat migration into the head won't be a problem.


Like this.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/th_nottoohot.jpg (http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/nottoohot.mp4)

[Hard_Cast]

They are using double torches. If you can heat the neck and shoulder up quick enough, and let it cool off, then great. If you slowly heat that same area, I think you'll see different results, ie. more uniform annealing over the whole case.

[dragon813gt]

Out of curiosity. If you tumble the brass will the color change go away? I know this sounds like a really dumb question.

[jmorris]

Yes. Most rifle ammunition is tumbled after annealing and it hides the fact that it was done.

Military ammunition is not so it is easy to see that it has been done.

[dragon813gt]

Ok, thanks. I tried annealing for the first time over the weekend. It was on 358 Winchester brass I made from LC 308. They got an extended trip in the tumbler and you can't tell it was done. I figured it would take it away but I wanted to confirm.

[Paso.man]

What's the temperature that is needed to anneal the brass? I thought I'd buy some temperature indicating paste. But not sure what temperature to buy.

[Artful]

What's the temperature that is needed to anneal the brass? I thought I'd buy some temperature indicating paste. But not sure what temperature to buy.
approximately 650-700 degrees Fahrenheit is what you are shooting for so get
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ICuLB148bJU/SjEFgCl6KSI/AAAAAAAAC40/sj9p9VJoQs8/s320/IMG_2828a.jpg
http://pictures.bisonballistics.com/brass-annealing-temperature@2x.png
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html


Optimal Case Temperatures for Successful Annealing
Brass is an excellent conductor of heat. A flame applied at any point on a case for a short time will cause the rest of the case to heat very quickly. There are several temperatures at which brass is affected. Also, the time the brass remains at a given temperature will have an effect. Brass which has been "work hardened" (sometimes referred to as "cold worked") is unaffected by temperatures (Fahrenheit) up to 482 degrees (F) regardless of the time it is left at this temperature. At about 495 degrees (F) some changes in grain structure begins to occur, although the brass remains about as hard as before--it would take a laboratory analysis to see the changes that take place at this temperature.

The trick is to heat the neck just to the point where the grain structure becomes sufficiently large enough to give the case a springy property, leaving the body changed but little, and the head of the case virtually unchanged.

If cases are heated to about 600 degrees (F) for one hour, they will be thoroughly annealed--head and body included. That is, they will be ruined. (For a temperature comparison, pure lead melts at 621.3 degrees F).

The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.

Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft. From this discussion we can see that there are four considerations concerning time and temperature:

1. Due to conduction, the amount of heat necessary to sufficiently anneal the case neck is great enough to ruin the rest of the case.

2. If the case necks are exposed to heat for a sufficient period of time, a lower temperature can be used.

3. The longer the case necks are exposed to heat, the greater the possibility that too much heat will be conducted into the body and head, thereby ruining the cases.

4. The higher the temperature, the less time the case necks will be exposed to heat, and there will be insufficient time for heat to be conducted into the body and head.

You can see that there are a couple of Catch-22s involved in this annealing business. On the one hand, the brass conducts heat quite rapidly, and a fairly high temperature with sufficient time must be attained to do the job. On the other hand, too much time cancels the effect, and we will be left with a case that is too soft and not suitable for anything but scrap. Obviously, there must be a solution; otherwise, not even the cartridge manufacturers could do it right.

...

Over-Annealing and Under-Annealing
When cartridge brass is under-annealed, virtually nothing has changed. If your case necks have become work-hardened, they will remain work-hardened, You will not see any improvement in case life or in accuracy. You will assume (incorrectly) that annealing is a waste of time. (In this case, with under-annealed brass, it is.)

Over-annealing is certainly the worst condition, and can even be dangerous, as pointed out above. Over-annealing has two aspects: over-annealing of the case neck only, and any annealing of the lower half of the case. There is no particular danger to over-annealing the case necks, which is the usual result of standing the brass in water and heating the necks with a torch. All that will happen is that your accuracy will not improve, or it may become worse, and the cases may seem to be a little more sticky during extraction. Case life will be improved because the necks are soft--too soft. However, you will conclude that annealing is not what it is cracked-up to be, and may even be a waste of time.

Any annealing whatsoever of the cartridge base is over-annealing and is dangerous. This area of the brass must retain the properties it had when it left the factory. If it is made the least bit softer, let alone "dead" soft, the stage is set for another shooter's nightmare. At the very least, you may get a whiff of hot gas directed toward your face. At the worst, you can be seriously injured as your gun behaves more like a hand grenade than a firearm.

I once heard a tale of a gentleman who placed his brass on a cookie tray and placed the whole batch in an oven at 650 degrees for over an hour. He wasn't hurt--at least seriously. His attitude toward annealing is very negative.

Cartridge brass which has been annealed over its entire length will exhibit signs of excessive pressure even with moderate and reduced loads. Indeed, cases in this condition are subjected to excessive pressures. Any pressure is excessive. Head separation, incipient head separation, stuck or sticky cases, blown primers, swollen cases, swollen case heads, enlarged primer pockets (I mean REALLY enlarged), and just about every other sign of excessive pressure imaginable can occur with cases which have been annealed over their entire length.

Testing Cartridge Brass for Hardness and Softness
This is not a definitive test of case hardness; it is more of an illustration than anything else. It requires a pair of small Vise-Grips and a few bottle neck rifle cases in various conditions of use: a factory fresh empty case, two cases that have not split but have been fired many times, and a couple of extra cases to set the jaws of the Vice Grips.

Place one of the used cases base down in a shallow tray containing water up to the lower third of the case, and deliberately over-heat the case neck--bring it to a red heat.

Adjust the Vise-Grips until the jaws barely touch the case neck when they are fully closed. Then, Carefully adjust them to go a few thousands of an inch beyond that point. the jaws should close until you can just barely visibly detect that the case mouth is deformed when the Vise-Grips are closed.

Ordinary pliers are not good for this demonstration because it is too easy to go too far. Vise-Grips, on the other hand, have an adjustable limit to which they can be closed.

Squeeze the neck of the used, but un-annealed case. Note the pressure required. Also note that when the pressure is released, the case neck springs back to its original shape.

Squeeze the neck of the factory fresh case. Once again note that the case neck springs back to its original shape, and that it takes slightly less pressure to deform it than the un-annealed case.

Now, squeeze the annealed case. The pressure to deform it is markedly less and when it is released, the case mouth remains deformed--no spring.

One more test--stand the annealed case on a metal plate (no water over the base) and heat the upper half to a red heat. Hold the heat for a few seconds and then let it cool. Adjust the Vice-Grips so that they can put considerable squeeze on the head area and crush the annealed case. Now crush one of the normal used cases. The difference is dramatic. Don't test an over-annealed case in a gun just to see what happens--take my word for it, the results can be dangerous to life, limb and eye, not to mention the condition of the gun. Finally, crush all test cases so that they won't get mixed in with good brass.

If you are a chemist or a metallurgist and know how to do it, you can make some photomicrographs of sections taken from the various critical points of several cases for reference. Of coarse, you could have been out on the range having a good time instead of fussing with such things, but to each his own.

Preparing the Brass for Annealing
The brass does not require any special preparation before it can be annealed. However, you will need a few polished cases in order to determine the correct temperature. This is important if you want first class results. If your first batch of brass will be pistol brass, don't use plated cases for the testing. Plated cases anneal just fine, but you will not be able to see the color of the brass as it heats up under that shiny coating of nickel.

If you have a polisher, polish the brass before annealing it. If you do not have a polisher, use a little Brasso or other brass polish on a dozen or so cases Polish them about half way down the case by putting a little Brasso on a soft cloth and turning them by hand. If you have a polisher, I don't need to tell you how to polish the brass.

http://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing
http://carteach0.blogspot.com/2009/06/annealing-case-necks-simple-and-safe.html

[M-Tecs]

never tried it for brass but using salt seems interesting - post 27 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?230128-Annealing/page2&highlight=anealing

[km101]

does anyone use molten lead?


Yeah I do cause for me its the easiest. during casting sessions I just dunk the case into the lead for about 5 seconds (just past the shoulder) and put it in water. Seems to work just fine for me.


Whenever I have used the lead pot method I always get lead sticking to the outside of the case. And it is a pain to get off. How do you prevent this?

[M-Tecs]

Whenever I have used the lead pot method I always get lead sticking to the outside of the case. And it is a pain to get off. How do you prevent this?

Maybe this?


I too use the lead dip. Set the pot temp to about 650/700, dip in oil or smear neck shoulder with sizing lube ( inside too ) and hold about mid shoulder in lead until feel heat in fingers while counting. Drop in water. After I have figured out how long it takes to feel heat, I use medical clamps to hold case as it keeps my hand from being right over the pot. It's fast, simple and does a very even job and you are sure the brass is not going to get any hotter than the lead. I don't anneal a lot but this does seem to work very well and I already had everything I need.

[Moonie]

I use the lead dip method, I don't remove primers first so I don't have issues with lead on the inside. I tumble after with stainless pins and it removes the lead.