Sniper Rifle Comparison

[JudgeBAC]

Great article on WWII sniper rifles.

http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/GUNS/GUNS0211/

MV and a Hornady Ballistician tested WWII sniper rifles against each other.

The Russian 91/30 was the winner. Great reading.

[MtGun44]

Interesting. IME, multiple 03 and 03A3s will always do 1.5"-2" at 100 yds with handloads.
Some HPX (greek milsurp) ammo will do 2" at 100 with one of my stock 03s.

My new 91/30 will do maybe 3" with the best milsurp ammo that I have tried. Other 91/30
or M44 do MUCH worse.

Never had a 8x57 Mauser shoot better than 5" at 100 with any ammo so far. Four diff
rifles, various lots and mfg of milsurp ammo.

All with open sights.

Bill

[Nora]

My new 91/30 will do maybe 3" with the best milsurp ammo that I have tried. Other 91/30
or M44 do MUCH worse.

Bill

My M38 sounds like the second two. I can't explain why but it's one of my favorites to shoot. Though on a good day the best that it does is give me minute of back stop groups at 100 yards with open sights. Or is it due to my +40 eyes?

[Multigunner]

Sounds like all they proved was that well preserved milsurp ammo out performs degraded milsurp ammo.

I noticed they did mention US Snipers prefering AP ammo, there was a good reason for that.
The 168 grain AP ammo was intended for aerial gun use and manufactured to very high ingition consistency specifications. When synchonized .30 cowl guns were phased out, millions of rounds of this ammo was freed up for ground use.
As late as the late 60's 168 gr AP was a favorite for long range target use.
The much longer bearing surface of the long for its weight bullet no doubt is beneficial. The Springfield 1:10 twist was originally intended for the long heavy 220 grain round nose of the 1903 cartridge, they never changed the twist to best suit the shorter bearing surface of the 150 gr bullet of the 1906 loading.

Besides the more consistent ignition the boat tailed steel core was sealed into the jacket by a shaped base cap, no leading from an open base to mix with powder fouling in the leade.
From my experiments with the Soviet 147 gr Steel core it would appear that a steel core acts like a mandrel, the jacket being more evenly pressed into the rifling. This would counteract bullet cant from a loose or eroded throat.

A common problem with older milsurp ammo is hardening of bullet sealants. Even 7.62 ammo no more than a couple of decades old is known to group much better if the bullet is set back in the neck a few thousandths to break the grip of hardened sealants.

The Soviet scope was one of the best made. When Germany was looking to Russia as an ally they set up several companies there, one was a manufacturer of precision optics including telescopic sights, which the Germans had intended to import from Russia. They should have known those sights would end up being used against them.

The Mosin Nagant has been used to build some very fine target rifles, its definitely a rifle capable of great accuracy if properly manufactured and finished with a decent barrel.

[twotrees]

Due to having to pay bills that rifle was sold.

But, it had marking indicating that it had been back to the arsenal at least 4 times for rebuilds, so it must have seen a lot of service.

It carried a 4 X scope and the smoothest trigger pull, on a mil rifle I have ever seen. Due to the relative worth of that gun I never fired it.

One of those that I should have never sold, but family comes before all else.

BTW: it was a Sauer with a 3 digit serial #.

Bill Rogers, owner of Springfield Sporter's, had an extensive collection of Mauser's, and offered to buy that one from me.

When my eyes were good it was not hard to get a 2 inch group at 100 yards with some other mil 98's and surplus ammo.

[.357]

my m44 shot a 1 inch group at 100 yards with surplus ball ammo had a feather weight trigger pull and was butt ugly. Now it lives with the BIL and he loves it. Sometimes i miss it but i still get to shoot it so i guess it's okay.

[Larry Gibson]

Having tested numerous sniper rifles and studied them and there development for quite a few years it is quite easy to get moa or less with any of them, given excellent condition, when quality ammuntion is used. I read the article and it seemed more a est of ammuntion that of the rifles capability, which has been mentioned. I've a M1903 that I've built into a match rifle, a "new" stock issue M1903A3 SC with 4 groove barrel, 2 M98s, 1 with a receiver sight and the other with a 6X scope, and a real Ishvesk M91/30 sniper. All are capable of moa accuracy with quality match bullets and all are 1 1/2 moa capable with select milsurp ammuntion such as was selected and used by actual snipers using those weapons. Using "select" amuntion was understood back then as it is now.

Larry Gibson

[Multigunner]

All are capable of moa accuracy with quality match bullets and all are 1 1/2 moa capable with select milsurp ammuntion such as was selected and used by actual snipers using those weapons. Using "select" amuntion was understood back then as it is now.

Larry Gibson

While the British officially only used MkVII Ball for sniping, fact is any sniper that could find it would use the MkVIIIz long range boat tail ammo meant for Vickers Guns.
MG companies that had supplies of MkVIIIz would either trade some to snipers, or hide it when the snipers were around or it would be ripped off.

One problem was that as little as two hundred rounds of MkVII ammo could erode the throat badly enough to cause the boat tail Mk8 bullet to keyhole.
This depends on just how loose the bore and throat were when new.
A No.4 with little visible wear that still shot MkVII ammo with a high degree of accuracy might keyhole every shot with Mk8 bullets.

Another factor was that Cordite did not lend itself to flash suppresant additives, the muzzle flash of cordite was easier for the enemy to spot and call in mortars.
The Germans got very good at picking out the cordite muzzle flash. So good that when eastern eurpoean conscripts serving with the German army in France were issued captured Enfield rifles, German observers mistook them for Brits and called in artillery on their positions.

During WW1 Winchester manufacture MkVIIz ammo was also scrounged when available.
British MG gunners didn't care for it because the rims were said to be a bit on the thick side, which could lead to jams. The thick rim would act to tighten up headgap and be a accuracy improver in the SMLE (T) and P14 rifles.
Another resaon was that WW1 manufacture MkVII ammo could erode the throat badly enough to dtract from long range accuracy in as little as 500 rounds, with 1500 rnds being about the limit for precision long range sniping.
MkVIIz, either from Remington or Winchester, was much easier on the bore so the sniper could depend on a longer accurate bore life.

MG companies began sorting ammo , mainly checking rim thickness with a gauge before belting the ammo. Cases of ammo known to be manufacted closely to specifications would be marked with a Green Cross or spot of green paint. I think some cases had an actual green label attached.
This was the origin of Green Spot high accuracy ammunition.

The RAF had many problems with standard ball ammo in synchronized aerial guns, so from 1918 on they contracted for their own "Red spot" ammo.

I'd have to say that the No.4 (T) rifles were far more vulnerable to accuracy destroying bedding problems, especially in damp tropical climes. Many field expediant fixes were tried, most seem to have been thought up in the India China Burma theatre.

I don't know much about the 1903 Springfield but its said in WW1 the Germans were suprised at the accuracy of that rifle in the hands of the USMC. In one instance our Marines were making many clean kills at six hundred yards or more with iron sights only. That was with the original 1906 loads, not any special ammunition.
Both the 1903 and M1917 rifles had to put four of five shots within two MOA to pass preliminary sighting in of a new barrel. A flyer was expected for military ball, but probably most would have put all five in the zone, which was the intersection of vertical and horizontal marking bands, two inches wide at one hundred yards and four inches wide at two hundred yards.

[azcruiser]

Some of the old WW1 303 ammo is hard on the bore had a box of what I thought was tracer ammo. But was something called balloon buster for shooting blimps in WW1 had a white phosphorus tracer over a cordite charge that just wrecked my barrel . Still have a few but won't
shoot them in any of the guns I have now.

[1Shirt]

There is a tendancy today to think of all sniper activity to be long range, as indeed much of it today happens to be. However, if you go back in war history, you will find that a fair amound to sniper activity was not necessarily long range as we define it today.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[herbert buckland]

Legendary Australian sniper Billy Sing mosly did his work at Gallipoli at ranges of less than 200yds,he did not youse a scoped rifle but had a spoter with scout scope,but that was trench warfare,I belive the distances were simular at Starlingrad

[Multigunner]

There is a tendancy today to think of all sniper activity to be long range, as indeed much of it today happens to be. However, if you go back in war history, you will find that a fair amound to sniper activity was not necessarily long range as we define it today.
1Shirt!:coffee:

A article on fighting in the Pacific said that any serious wound in the upper body or head (and if you took effective cover the head and upper body were about the only vulnerable areas) from a shot fired from 200 yards or more was assumed to be from a sniper. The Japanese riflemen were greatly under rated at the time.
Most such wounds were from what we'd call Sharpshooters rather than snipers. Riflemen using iron sights, and with natural skills and reasonable training in marksmanship.
All Japanese troops were well trained in concealment, and picking their shots to save ammo.

In Jungle fighting the Telescopic sight served more to identify targets hidden in foliage rather than as an aid to long range shooting.

The Japanese did use long range volley fire to good effect. Often far beyond the range that the report of shots could be heard.
Bullets whizing by like a swarm of bees at range reduced velocities where there was no longer a sonic crack were very disconcerting.
A hundred rounds fired for every hit seemed like precision shooting when you could not detect the report of any of those shots, and had no clue as to where the shot came from.

[Von Dingo]

I don't have the book handy, but I have the book about German Sniping rifles in the World Wars around. I recall the ZF-41 as considered a sharpshooter rifle, not a true sniping rifle, just classified as such, for lack of a better description.

A post WWII article in a German soldier or militaria magazine was also quoted. In it some of the more successful surviving snipers were interviewed. They were referring to some ammo that had to be handed in when their units rotated West, out of the USSR. I don't know if by explosive they meant expanding, I can't really see 8MM slugs with explosives being produced during the war, or in general. They were quoted as being successful at some very long ranges on the Eastern front. This was realistically dependant on supply.

This is all off of the top of my head, I'm not playing expert or know it all.

[Multigunner]

They were referring to some ammo that had to be handed in when their units rotated West, out of the USSR. I don't know if by explosive they meant expanding, I can't really see 8MM slugs with explosives being produced during the war, or in general. They were quoted as being successful at some very long ranges on the Eastern front. This was realistically dependant on supply.

This is all off of the top of my head, I'm not playing expert or know it all.

Some British Snipers made limited use of incendiary and explosive bullets, when firing on fuel supplies and ammo dumps. This went back as far as the Jacobs Rifle which introduced explosive bullets for rifles, the bullets being used to detonate enemy artillery cassions.
A rifle caliber explosive bullet would probably be effective in ignition of Russian Mortar shell supplies and such. No real advantage in using these against humans. They probably wouldn't detonate in flesh anyway, though the Russian steel breatplate body armor would likely provide enough resistence for detonation.

Snipers often fired on equipment, putting a truck out of commission could put the troops it carried out of a fight. Putting an MG out of commission with an AP round was more effective than killing the gunner who could be quickly replaced.


When the German airforces began to lose manufacturing capacity many belt feed aerial guns (intended for heavy bombers that never got into production) were adapted for ground use. The belts some of these used were not interchangeable with the belts used by regular ground guns like the MG34 or MG42. The result was the adapted guns had only supplies of aerial combat ammunition, including tracers, Incendiary, and Explosive bullets.
Since the Germans had in the past executed British Troops over charges that the MkVII was an inhumane bullet they would want to avoid using ammo like this against British, American, and Western European troops, but had no such compunction against using these against Eastern Europeans and Asians.

[vintagesportsman]

196 grain soft nose Prvi Partisan - 2" @ 100yds - 170 grain RN GC cast - .75 @ 100 yards. Given that the majority of sniping is most definately done from 400 yds or less and a significant amount at 200 or less I would say that the 170 gr. cast boolit is a great round for target applications.

[PAT303]

I'm with multigunner on this,everytime,even today all you hear on the news is ''sniper fire'' which is the term used for any stray or single shots that are heard.I think everyone must remember that many men,again even today have only ever fired a rifle after they have joined and in a fight don't really do much but many men do shoot,like on this forum and could without much trouble headshoot a man on the other side out to 200mtrs or chest shoot out to 400mtrs with iron sights and have everyone in the area think it's a sniper.I also think a man that has signed up that has grown up with rifles would set his issued rifle up the way he wanted it and after a year or so of fighting would be a formidible opponant. Pat

[spqrzilla]

The most accomplished Finnish sniper used an iron sighted Mosin-Nagant rifle. It was his view that a scope put one's head up too high over the bore and exposed the sniper.

[mike in co]

did any of you note that camp perry will host a vintage sniper match next year ?
rifles made before the end of korean confilct..1955)

the bad news is only oem sniper rifles.......

and here i have rifle after rifle fitted with 4x scopes......


i have one 91/30 that might qualify...

mike in co

[NickSS]

I have read several books written by former military snipers of WWI and WWII from both sides. Equiment and ammo wise our snipers today have a huge edge. However, from what I have read most sniper rifles of most combatants were select rifles that were more accurate than the run of mil rifle coming out of the factories. In WWI the British snipers used mostly Ross Rifles for snipers as they were generally more accurate than the standard SMLE. Scope sights were low powered and not extremely clear copared to the optics of today. Most sniping was conducted from the forward trench lines at the opposing forward lines. Ranges were anything from less than 100 yards to around 400 yards. Most shooting at longer ranges was considered more harassing fire than sniping but occasional hits were made. The same type of equipment was used in WWII. Select good shooting rifles were selected and fitted with usually low power scopes of 4X or less and the snipers were given some training on range estimation and concealment as well as marksmanship training and sent to the front lines. Only the Russians made up snipper teams most other combatants sent out their snipers and individuals to do what ever damage they could. I read one interesting memoir by a german sniper who started quite informally using a captured Russian rifle with their ammo.
After a year his company commander sent him to sniper school where he was issued a scoped mauser rifle with a 4 X scope sight. He had to carry that rifle all over even on leave and never let it out of his sight. He had several hundred kills by the end of the war but he made one comment in the book that was revealing as to ranges mostly shot over. He mentions one shot he made at some Russians across a river at a range of 400 meters as being the longest shot he ever attempted. As I recall he hit his target but then had to run because the soviets opened fire on the house he was in with artilery. Most sniping was done at ranges of less than 300 yards and even closer in both WW from the info I have seen.

[Piedmont]

A week ago I finished Sniping in France by Major H. Hesketh-Prichard. He set up the first sniper school (and maybe only) of the Brits in WWI. He was involved in sniping beginning in 1915. I would like to make two comments concerning NickSS's good post above.

First, the main sniper rifle of the Brits in WWI was the scoped P-14, not the Ross, but for the reason Nick stated, it was more accurate than the SMLE.

Secondly the Brits WERE using two man scout/sniper teams from the beginning, at least anyone who went through the sniper school. The Germans were lone snipers as Nick stated.

[PAT303]

The biggest handicap the British and unfortunately for us was that the people calling the shots as far as equipment was concerned had no idea about sniping or shooting in general.The British did finally in WW2 get a very good rifle in the No.4T but we got the Mk111 with an overly complicated removeable mount that had a handfull of wear points on it so they never held accuracy after a while in service as well as a very good quality scope but too small to be of any good.The original Aust rifles were all range rifles that were impounded by the Goverment and men like Billy Sing done a great amount of harm with them and we also used P14's which should have been our standard rifle as they shot as good or better than anything around at the time,on the Timor Islands those rifles really did some work.The Mk111's were never going to be as good as they could be with side mounted or take off mounts to clear the charger bridge for rapid loading,that in itself explains more than anything the complete ignorance of sharpshooting the powers at be had. Pat

[NickSS]

I had not read that book but did read one by an american who served in the Canadian army and he used a ross and was a loan wolf. I will have to get the book Piedmont mentioned as it is one I never heard of and it should be interesting.

[nicholst55]

One big problem that snipers have encountered since the beginning is that the brass frequently has no concept of how to employ them. That is still true, at least to some extent, today. I read an account of an American sniper in WWII, armed with an M1903A4; his company commander used him to designate targets for their anti-tank guns. A target would be spotted, our hero would fire several rounds of tracer at it so the AT gunners could spot it, and they would fire away. Our sniper, meantime, has given his own position away, and is busy dodging mortar and machine gun fire!

He said that he leaned that Springfield up against a tree (or fence, I honestly can't recall), picked up an M1, and never looked back. As far as he knew when interviewed for the book, that Springfield is still leaning against that tree!

[Piedmont]

Nick, Are you thinking of McBride from A Rifleman Went to War? I can't remember what rifle he used but that is a favorite book. I've started writing reviews for myself on the military history books since I read so many of them, some worth rereading and some not and I have trouble recalling something I read, say, ten years ago. That book I mentioned (Heskwith-Prichard) I gave 3-4 stars. But the one I just finished, With British Snipers to the Reich by C. Shore, I gave 5 stars. It is WWII, of course, and is sort of like a cross between A Rifleman Went to War and Dunlap's Ordnance Went up Front (though not as technical as the latter).

I think from reading your posts you would really like With British Snipers to the Reich.

It makes sense that a guy with the Canadian army might have a Ross.

[Multigunner]

A week ago I finished Sniping in France by Major H. Hesketh-Prichard. He set up the first sniper school (and maybe only) of the Brits in WWI. He was involved in sniping beginning in 1915. I would like to make two comments concerning NickSS's good post above.

First, the main sniper rifle of the Brits in WWI was the scoped P-14, not the Ross, but for the reason Nick stated, it was more accurate than the SMLE.

Secondly the Brits WERE using two man scout/sniper teams from the beginning, at least anyone who went through the sniper school. The Germans were lone snipers as Nick stated.

Actually the Scoped P-14 didn't show up till the war was nearly over.

At first the British used a variety of sporting rifles contributed to the cause, some in heavy calibers for use against the steel sniper loophole shields, MkVII .303 Ball had poor penetration on sheet steel compared to other ammunition types. Later AP ammo became available.
The Scoped SMLE (T) rifles were finally mass produced, starting in 1916 I think.

The P-14 was put to good use as a sniper rifle, but early on these were only fitted with the standard adjustable peep sights, and later a fine adjustment peep sight.
Only in the last months of the war was a properly scoped P-14 available, all resoucres had been concentrated on providing scopes and mounts for the SMLE (T) rifles.

[JSnover]

In "A Rifleman Went to War" McBride had a lot to say about both the Ross and the Enfield, but I can't remember if he preferred one over the other. He did mention the Ross having a tendancy to lock up once in a while; The bolt would refuse to open for reasons that were unknown at the time... mud in the action, maybe?

[Multigunner]

In "A Rifleman Went to War" McBride had a lot to say about both the Ross and the Enfield, but I can't remember if he preferred one over the other. He did mention the Ross having a tendancy to lock up once in a while; The bolt would refuse to open for reasons that were unknown at the time... mud in the action, maybe?

Straight Pull designs seldom have much leverage for extracting swollen cases.

The Ross worked well enough with Canadian manufactured .303 but the ammunition supplied by the British was often of much lower quality.

The British had loosened the acceptance tolerances due to shortages of ammunition. The loose headspace of the Enfield, combined with the steep taper of the case and chamber allowed for more leeway in chambering out of spec ammo.

The Ross also had tolerances too tight for operating in dirt and mud.
The pre 1916 Lithgow SMLE also had unusually tight tolerances, and in battle these rifles sometimes jammed tight.
They found that the Lithgow factory had set their gauging to the largest allowable diameter for the bolt body and the smallest allowable diameter for the bolt pathway. This made the pre 1916 more accurate than the run of the mill SMLE but left no clearance room for sand or other battlefield debris.
The Factory adjusted their gauging and pre 1916 rifles were either sent back for adjustment or the offending parts polished down a bit by company armorers in the field.

The Ross remained a popular rifle for snipers, its reputation for accuracy was well earned.
Modern bolt action Sniper Rifles don't trade accuracy enhancing close tolerances for any supposed advantage in reliability. Snipers just spend more time keeping their weapon clean, and avoid letting debris get in the action to begin with. Vastly improved lubricants help out.
If a modern sniper had to lube his rifle with vaseline, as the British used for the SMLE, it would probably gather grit and jam.

The ability of the SMLE to work in a muddy environment was more due to the relative ease of clearing the action of debris.
Fact is all the rifles used by the Major powers in WW1 were able to handle the conditions of the trenchs, with the exception of the Ross.
The Springfield and the Mauser had exceptional leverage in extraction of stuck cases, and in chambering dented cartridges.

The Canadians had had a few bad experiances with the Lee Enfield rifle when used in forests and bitter cold by militia and police. They had a list of complaints that seem rather odd these days. Pine Needles getting into the very open action was one you'd probably never think of, but resin and pine needles caused problems with the open topped receiver of the Winchester 92 , 94, and 95 lever actions as well.
They also complained of the firing pin hole in the Enfield bolthead becoming gummed up and frozen.
Modern low temperature lubricants would have cured those problems.
Artic explorers in those days had learned that it was best to use a rifle that didn't have to have lubricants to function, the Remington Rolling block for example.

[Mike Venturino]

Next summer we intend to use the same rifles and some others with the best quality ammo we can develop and do it all over again. Also we want to see how far we can go and still get first shot hits. A few test groups with good ammo were included in that article to show that for the most part the rifles were outperforming the ammo.

By the way the father of the fellow who did this project with me was a sniper with '03A4 in the 101st Airborne in WW2. His statement was that they were not issued any special ammo in training, just had to use what they were given.

It was a fun project but its not done yet. Also both of us are planning on shooting the CMP games in Phoenix next October and are especially looking forward to the Vintage Sniper Rifle event, which my friend in this project happened to win in 2010.

Nice being back. I hope to visit with you guys some more.
Mike Venturino

[Mike Venturino]

PS: Next year not being limited to vintage ammo I intend to include my Japanese Type 97 sniper rifle, which I have pretty well figured out now. I know it is capable of first shot hits out to 300 yards but that is as far as I can shoot here at home. Also my VZ24 sniper rifle absolutely refuses to shoot boattail bullets with any sort of precision so we left it out in 2010. Next year I will include it with 195 grain Hornady flat base bullets which it shoots very nicely.

Again, best wishes for the new year.
Mike V.

[Von Dingo]

When is the MV book of WWII small arms coming?