Question from an "unwashed"

[Jim]

I've seen many photos of projectiles made from pistol cartridge cases that were either swaged or turned and then filled with alloy. I don't doubt this, I'm just a little amazed, I guess, that the web and head of the case would engrave the riflings and pass through. I would have thought that the hard brass of the case would present to much resistance to the forcing cone and riflings and things would go south.

Would one of you experienced gentlemen explain this to me?

Fascinated in Floyd

[buck1]

The case is usually fully annealed but not always. Brass isnt that hard to begin with. I guess it is not that different from solid copper bullets. I havent noticed any forcing cone issues in my rugers. The boolits are swaged to bore dia. But they do seem to have a bit more recoil.
I wont use the nickel plated brass as I have read the OLD books that from the time period of when nickel jackets were used. corpril nickel (sp) was near unremovable from a barrel.
Others will surely chime in and most likely give a better answer. ..Buck

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I'm just a little amazed, I guess, that the web and head of the case would engrave the riflings and pass through. I would have thought that the hard brass of the case would present to much resistance to the forcing cone and riflings and things would go south. Would one of you experienced gentlemen explain this to me? Fascinated in Floyd

Fully annealed brass must not be too hard. I did have your same thoughts before I bought my first set of Dies from BT...about 11 months ago. I sorry, I can't explain it too you, but, sometimes the proof is in the pudding. I can't seem to find photo's of any of my recovered projectiles at this time. here is one I borrowed from BT.
Jon
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/crosscut429.jpg

[randmplumbingllc]

I think that Remington Golden Sabres and Montana Bullet Co, among others, use brass jackets

[BT Sniper]

Love the pic! As you can see we have a pressure reducing grove cut in our bullets too just like barnes tsx bullets!

Don't forget commercial jackets are guilding metal, as in copper and zink. Brass is made up of copper and zink. Ya a bit more zink in brass but the results are in, these bullets shoot great and I certainly have not had any problems.

Yes we swage the bullet so the entire case is bullet diameter. There for no problem contacting the rifling with the web of the case/bullet.

BT

[MakeMineA10mm]

You can also get a chop-saw and saw off the rim and extractor groove section of the case. These are ugly, but I was successful on first attempt:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=404&pictureid=2889

Middle bullet and one to it's right have had the extractor groove and rim sawed off. The bullets with rim and solid brass head still intact just aren't hard enough to cause that much problem. I still load them down maybe a grain to 1.5grs under max with my AA#9 load, but I do that with conventional JHPs too...

[Jim]

Thank you, gentlemen! Very good explanations.
Another question, if I may: What is the minimum temperature and time required to successfully anneal cases?

[Radio Flyer]

I think that a lot of people misunderstand the nature of what we call “brass” the copper colored jackets we are used to in mass production are technically a “brass”.

In the past several metals were and are used as jackets.

Steel.
Brass.
Cupronickel.

Tests on steel showed less than 7% change in barrel wear, so if steel works, why is brass such an issue outside of “its different”...?

The answer is of course it is not an issue outside of it just looks different.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Thank you, gentlemen! Very good explanations.
Another question, if I may: What is the minimum temperature and time required to successfully anneal cases?

I thought someone mentioned 700º F once ???
I put them into a stainless steel screen collender
and then into the wood stove over red hot coals,
I heat the brass til it glows red, then I remove them
from the stove and quench them in water.
Jon

[bohica2xo]

Try this:

Annealing Copper and Copper Alloys

Much misinformation exists in the firearms world regarding annealing copper & brass. Copper and it's alloys are metals of a face centered cubic structure that work hardens easily. As copper is moved or worked, the crystals are displaced or dislocated in relationship to each other. Annealing it requires raising the temperature high enough to allow the crystals to realign.

The minimum temperature required to properly anneal copper and it's alloys is easily calculated. Face centered cubic metals begin to anneal at just over half the absolute melting point. Sounds simple enough – pure copper melts @ 1356˚ Kelvin, so half of that would be 678˚ K or 405˚ C – about 761˚ F.

That is the minimum temperature for annealing pure copper. If you were to leave copper to soak at that temperature long enough it would become fully annealed. Nobody wants to wait that long. Raising the temperature reduces the time it takes to anneal. In an industrial environment, copper annealing usually takes place between 700˚C (1292˚F) to 900˚C (1652˚F). An average (85Cu 15Zn) Brass has a melting point of slightly less than copper (1213˚K), and a proper annealing range should be 650˚C to 725˚C for a short period of time. Because brass is a zinc alloy, heating times should be short to keep the zinc in the alloy.

As a frame of reference, Aluminum melts @ 659˚C or 1218˚F. If your heat source does not melt aluminum, it is not hot enough to anneal rapidly. If your heat source does not reach 750F, it will not anneal copper at all. Most kitchen appliances are not up to the annealing task, and should not be considered for this type of work. An inexpensive propane torch & a firebrick are a much better choice for annealing jackets.

A word about quenching. Copper and it's alloys do not need to be quenched after heating to anneal. Quenching can reduce the oxidization, but is not part of the annealing process. Quench, air cool – it makes no difference to the copper or brass.


I shot a lot of 11L14 solid steel bullets, never had a problem with them engaging the rifling...

B.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

A word about quenching. Copper and it's alloys do not need to be quenched after heating to anneal. Quenching can reduce the oxidization, but is not part of the annealing process. Quench, air cool – it makes no difference to the copper or brass.
B.

I should have added my reason for quenching .
my wood stove is in my Livingroom.
I quench only to avoid any potential hazard
when dealing with red hot brass.
Jon

[ReloaderFred]

I also quench mine to do away with the possibility of being burned by hot brass. My work area for doing this is limited, so dropping them into a water quench solves that problem and takes up less room.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[seppos]

Easiest to do the annealing is to do it in dim lighting or in dark..
I just follow the colour of the metal and when it is right, I quench the cases..
Here is the colour chart:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:YMSO6tQq6YnSjM:http://www.studyof911.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Steel_Color_Chart.jpg&t=1

S

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Thanks seppos,
I am cutting and pasting that.
that'll help me plenty :)
Jon