358429 max cartridge length

[Tazman1602]

I have done a search and found a few posts on this but wanted to pick the brains of the geniuses here.

I know this bullet is a bit "long" in order to be crimped in the crimp groove, in both Lyman books it states "in order to maintain a cartridge overall length of 1.590, it is sometimes necessary to crimp cast bullets on the forward edge of the first driving band".

OK, if you're using a 358429, and you want to maintain 1.590" max length, you're gonna end up crimping exactly there or, at least somewhere on the foreward most band. About 1.640" or so is where it will be if crimped in the groove.

1.640" easily fits in the cylinder of my Taurus 669 with room to spare. On my Ruger NM Vaquero it clears the barrel, but man if it's a hairs width I'd be surprised.

This is a new mold to me, so I'm planning on starting the 358429 with 10grains of 2400 and working my way up from there -- but where would you aficionados seat this bullet to? Just keep overall length no more than 1.590", or seat it out as close to the barrel/forcing cone that I can and retain reliable cylinder rotation to hit the crimp groove? What are the implications of seating to a longer overall length if the bullet fit the function of the firearm? I can't see a pressure issue because you're not pushing the bullet INTO the case more, but it will leave more room for the powder to roll around in but I may be thinking backwards..

Usually I shoot 358156's and 358311's out of both of my .357's and they don't have this issue....

........and a little over a year ago before I found this place I would have just loaded the blasted things and seen how they shot, now I have 20 questions................<grin>

Many Thanks,

Art

[TCLouis]

Loaded long o in the crimping groove will give you more space for powder.
Look for data with OAL at or close to what you can load to for highest level loads.

WORK UP LOAD TO MAX IN YOUR GUN AS ALWAYS

[Tazman1602]

That's the issue TC. Don't need more space for powder, max loads don't come close to filling the case with the powders I've got.

I just want to know if I'm going to run into any caveats by seating the 358429 out to the crimping groove as long as it clears the end of the cylinder in my revolvers.

Been reloading for 30 years so I am well learnt about working up max loads.

I learnt that in 1973 after trying to impress some girls with a black powder flintlock pistol I had -- didn't know about measuring loads and wanted the pistol to go "bang" in a big way...............

..........which it did leaving only a piece of the wood handle of the stock in my hand. Why I wasn't hurt is known only to God...

Anyone? Anyone have experience seating this bullet to it's crimp groove?

[Maven]

Art, As you noted, that design, or at least its crimp groove, isn't optimal for the .357mag. as it was designed for the .38Spl. I can't seat it to the crimp groove/1.59" OAL for my Ruger SBH or Dan Wesson either. Brian Pearce of "Handloader" magazine has long suggested trimming your .357mag. brass to 1.25" so that you can seat that CB correctly, i.e., in the crimp groove. I've been doing it for years and it works perfectly. Rather than trim all your brass to 1.25", try trimming a few to 1.27"and 1.26", to make dummy rounds to see whether you can crimp -429 in the crimp groove.

[Tazman1602]

Thanks so much! I'll give that a snort then. I know a lot of guys use this in .357 but even with all the reading I do I did_not know it was actually designed for .38 Special. I've got one of those also so it may be a new load for that gun too.

I just went out and seated to 1.600" in my Taurus and using 10 grains and then 11 grains and then 12 grains of 2400 it shot fairly decent groups for me. Seemed the faster I pushed it the more the groups tightened up.

Going to go load some more, trim some brass, and see what I can come up with.

One more question -- what about just using .38 special brass with this bullet in .357? I could keep speeds down to .38 special loadings if I had to.

THANKS for that information Maven!

Art


Art, As you noted, that design, or at least its crimp groove, isn't optimal for the .357mag. as it was designed for the .38Spl. I can't seat it to the crimp groove/1.59" OAL for my Ruger SBH or Dan Wesson either. Brian Pearce of "Handloader" magazine has long suggested trimming your .357mag. brass to 1.25" so that you can seat that CB correctly, i.e., in the crimp groove. I've been doing it for years and it works perfectly. Rather than trim all your brass to 1.25", try trimming a few to 1.27"and 1.26", to make dummy rounds to see whether you can crimp -429 in the crimp groove.

[Maven]

Art, It's OK to use the .38Spl. brass and OAL with -429, but only if you load it to .38Spl. standards. I.e., you can't make it a .357mag., as the brass is the weak link. My .357mags., unfortunately, don't shoot .38Spl. loads at all well and that includes .38Spl. match wadcutters (Remington). Also, long term use of the shorter brass may produce a tough, difficult to remove carbon ring in your cylinder throats.

[Beerd]

When I started reloading i didn't know any better and figured the crimp groove on this bullet was put there to crimp the case mouth into, so that's what I did. It worked in my revolvers then so I see no reason to change any time soon.
10 grains of 2400 makes a good starting load for the 358429 bullet in a 357 Mag and 12 is still below most published maximum loads.
I have read that Mr Keith loaded a bit more in 38 Spl brass during the development of the magnum cartridge.
..

[Tazman1602]

Ya' know guys, I got to thinking about the 38 special loadings -- I do know the 357 has a bit thicker web etc and all I could think about was my wife picking up her .38 and grabbing some ammo I had loaded for my .357 -------------- just isn't a great idea with a .38 around that gets shot alot also.

Well I need to work with this one a bit, always such fun figuring out a load with a new bullet. With the long cylinder in my Taurus this may be just the bullet I"m looking for.

Speaking of Taurus -- I got that gun in a "divorce sale" for $200 something like ten years ago. I didn't even like Taurus at the time. I didn't really like .357 at the time........but that blasted "cheap" Taurus really shoots and has a nice trigger also.

Thanks for all the advice, going to load some more for the Taurus now and put together some starting loads for the Ruger.

Got zero leading from the Taurus shooting today.

Art

PS -- Beerd I hear that one.........................

[Al_sway]

It sounds like the crimp groove is fine with your taurus, but I would not use the crimp groove lengths in your other pistol. Any bullet movement would result in locking up the gun.
If you do crimp over the front band, be cautious with your starting loads, as the pressure will increase greatly with this change in seating depth.

[Jal5]

I was able to load the 358429 in the correct crimp groove for my 357 mag M66 S&W. That gun really likes the boolit too! I get more accuracy with that than the 158 gr. SWC that I usually use for practice. I think the gun just likes a boolit with a little more weight to it. I recently bought a box of them plus I just started casting and picked up a mold for it so I am good to go.

Joe

[USSR]

My 686 likes it's 358429's crimped in the crimp groove and using 13.5gr of 2400.

Don

[Tazman1602]

Well here's an update. I've shot a ton of loads with this bullet so far, different seating depths, powder charge variations, etc.

Al_Sway I haven't tried it in the crimp groove on my Ruger just because I got scared of what you have said, afraid of bullet moving and locking things up which I can fix but it's a pain.

I have also discovered why it *appears* my almost new Ruger doesn't like to shoot real well. I've been working with the Ruger and just can't hold but about 4" groups at 17 paces or so. It's the TRIGGER. I LOVE my new Vaquero, but the trigger is REALLY bad. Creepy and max's out on my trigger pull gauge which is 5 pounds. I worked with it a bit, loaded to 1.600 C.O.L which fits fine but it is crimped on the front band. I managed two consecutive 2" groups but I'm still flinging some due to the trigger..........

I found this out when just for giggles and grins I took out the Taurus $200 special and right off the bat shot a bit under 2"....I thought it was a fluke so I shot two more, just a bit under and over 2" there.

Best groups have also come from the old standard load of 13.5grs of 2400. I JUST read in Guns magazine (dangit, can't find the article now....) a noted gun writer saying he had just used the "old standard of 13.5 grains of 2400 with a 358429 loaded in .38 special cartidges and crimped in the groove...." and may yet try to work up that load.

I'm not a great handgun shot as I always say but I am working on technique and trying to handle the trigger on the Vaquero. I can fix it, I just don't want to spend another $250 to fix a trigger on an already $500 gun..................that's getting into S&W territory price wise.

The trigger on my Taurus is 3.5lbs and breaks like glass. Makes one heck of a difference in hanguns IMHO. My sights on the Taurus also have the Vaquero sights beat all to death.

I was making another rookie mistake --- I went back and read the sticky on a beginners guide to revolver accuracy and realized I was trying to shoot my handguns like my rifles -- real loose and relaxed. Once I tightened up my grip and pushed the revolver out keeping trigger finger and thumb relaxed until pressing the trigger that made a difference too.

Always learning fella's, always learning. Thanks for all the good advice so far.

Art

[hamour]

I love this bullet, I went with 38 special cases for my short cylinder revolvers and Marlin Lever Action. Elmer Keiths original powder charge shoots best. 13.5grs 2400 SP primer.

In my long cylinder revolvers I went to 14 grs 2400 and 357 cases. Accuracy is great. This bullet likes speed.

I have both a solid mold and hpt version from NOE. He still has some available.

I am using lyman # 2 at this time and it casts beautiful bullets.

NOTE: Carbon rings in 357 chambers when using 38 special cases.
1- In the Marlin, I use a sized 357 case with the mouth slightly belled out, close the action on this case and it scrapes the carbon ring free. Ready for normal brush and hoppes cleaning.
2-In revolvers my normal lead cleaning procedure and solvent from Remington, cleans this ring as well as lead. Not difficult at all.

[gspman]

wondering how much this bullet weighs? I Bought some 180grn bullets from missouri bullets and am wondering if should seat to crimp groove?Info i have found says around 11 grn 2400start. 13.5 is what is being mentioned here.Thanks gspman

[Beerd]

weight depends on the alloy and to some extent the individual mould.
usually the 358429 runs 3 or 4 grains either side of 170.

as for the Alliant 2400 powder data, 13.5 grains is a top end load in the 357 mag with this bullet. If the books say to start with 11 grains that is the place to begin.

[gspman]

Beerd Thanks for that tidbit of info.I dont cast yet and my knowlege of what mold is what is slim.I found this thread applical to what i am trying to do loading for my 357.Kept thinking someone would mention bullet wieght .Thanks gspman

[Tazman1602]

Finally gettting some results with this pistol after a year of hating it. Trigger is still not nice but at least it's shooting OK. Will confirm that today if it ever quits raining here.

Trimmed cases to 1.168-.170" and seated to groove with my load of 2400. First sub 4-5" groups I've shot out of this thing but only one so far as it got dark too fast last night.

If you trim your brass at all, I got a hornady cam lock case trimmer for Christmas with the drill attachment and it is easy, repeatable and fast. Makes a boring job...........well, it's still boring, but it's much faster now...

I used Elmers load of 2400...............specs are on the photo use at your own risk and never load anything not in your manual.

Art

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc336/Tazman1602/358429forum.jpg

[kelbro]

Similar situation here. I load the 358429 in 38spl cases for the Marlin and 357 cases for the S&W 586. 13.5gr of 2400 works well. The 38spl cases shoot in either equally well.

[robertbank]

Well here's an update. I've shot a ton of loads with this bullet so far, different seating depths, powder charge variations, etc.

Al_Sway I haven't tried it in the crimp groove on my Ruger just because I got scared of what you have said, afraid of bullet moving and locking things up which I can fix but it's a pain.

I have also discovered why it *appears* my almost new Ruger doesn't like to shoot real well. I've been working with the Ruger and just can't hold but about 4" groups at 17 paces or so. It's the TRIGGER. I LOVE my new Vaquero, but the trigger is REALLY bad. Creepy and max's out on my trigger pull gauge which is 5 pounds. I worked with it a bit, loaded to 1.600 C.O.L which fits fine but it is crimped on the front band. I managed two consecutive 2" groups but I'm still flinging some due to the trigger..........

I found this out when just for giggles and grins I took out the Taurus $200 special and right off the bat shot a bit under 2"....I thought it was a fluke so I shot two more, just a bit under and over 2" there.

Best groups have also come from the old standard load of 13.5grs of 2400. I JUST read in Guns magazine (dangit, can't find the article now....) a noted gun writer saying he had just used the "old standard of 13.5 grains of 2400 with a 358429 loaded in .38 special cartidges and crimped in the groove...." and may yet try to work up that load.

I'm not a great handgun shot as I always say but I am working on technique and trying to handle the trigger on the Vaquero. I can fix it, I just don't want to spend another $250 to fix a trigger on an already $500 gun..................that's getting into S&W territory price wise.

The trigger on my Taurus is 3.5lbs and breaks like glass. Makes one heck of a difference in hanguns IMHO. My sights on the Taurus also have the Vaquero sights beat all to death.

I was making another rookie mistake --- I went back and read the sticky on a beginners guide to revolver accuracy and realized I was trying to shoot my handguns like my rifles -- real loose and relaxed. Once I tightened up my grip and pushed the revolver out keeping trigger finger and thumb relaxed until pressing the trigger that made a difference too.

Always learning fella's, always learning. Thanks for all the good advice so far.

Art

How are the Ruger throats? I have the GP-100 and had to ream them out to .358. I couldn't push a .357 boolit through the cylinders. I had lots of leaading; now no more.

Take Care

Bob

[GP100man]

My 686 likes it's 358429's crimped in the crimp groove and using 13.5gr of 2400.

Don

I don`t shoot alot of em but this load in new starline brass wth a heavy roll crimp will do anything asked within reason of a 357 Magnum !

On my GPs I have .022" until interference!

I did some esearch on SWC designs & designers & I found out that Elmer put the original specs the same as the 429421, length lube groove & all except caliber .
But he did say it was a tad heavy for the 357 though.

I feel what help makes it so accurate in so many revolvers is the fact it sits so close to the forcing cone & it`s length !!!:lovebooli

[Tazman1602]

Hey Bob,

You are talking about the cylinder itself right? The cylinder on my Vaquero has a push fit with the .359 bullets I size and the barrel slugs at .358 and some change I *think* as I'm at work and don't have my notes in front of me.

I am able to safely seat these bullets out to ....arrgggghh, again don't have my notes in front of me but I *can* seat them to the lube groove and still have them clear the barrel -- but what I've taken to doing is to trim the brass down by .125, seat to crimp groove and bingo, works like a champ.

NO leading............

Art



How are the Ruger throats? I have the GP-100 and had to ream them out to .358. I couldn't push a .357 boolit through the cylinders. I had lots of leaading; now no more.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

I just loaded some 358429 boolits yesterday for both my Ruger GP-100 and my Rossie. Crimped in the crimping groove the cartridges are 1.540. I have room to spare when seated in my GP-100.

Tomorrow is testing day with the virgin Rossie and my GP-100.

Weather is going to be a balmy 3C of 40F with a touch of rain. God I dislike winter!

Take Care

Bob

[kelbro]

I just loaded some 358429 boolits yesterday for both my Ruger GP-100 and my Rossie. Crimped in the crimping groove the cartridges are 1.540. I have room to spare when seated in my GP-100.

Tomorrow is testing day with the virgin Rossie and my GP-100.

Weather is going to be a balmy 3C of 40F with a touch of rain. God I dislike winter!

Take Care

Bob

In 38 sp cases, right?

They run 1.64 in my 357 cases.

[Tazman1602]

More or less same thing for me 1.620 or so in 357 cases...???

[robertbank]

In 38 sp cases, right?

They run 1.64 in my 357 cases.

Yup.

Take Care

Bob

[Down South]

The 358429 does well crimped in the crimp groove in my GP-100. I don't have any of my data in front of me but I "Think" that I have about .020" clearance from the nose of the boolit to the end of the cylinder.

[txbirdman]

I like the looks of the 358429 in .357 mag brass. I'm of the opinion that it looks odd in .38 Spcl. To me it looks like the cartridge is all bullet. I really wanted to shoot that bullet in my Model 27 but with it's short cylinder I have to crimp on the front band in order to get it to function. The same goes for my '94 Marlin. It works great in my Model 19 though but I think it's a little heavy for that platform. It seems that the 686's and Ruger's work fine with this bullet and if I owned one of those revolvers I would use that bullet more than I do currently. Mostly I'm using the RCBS 150 KT which works and shoots well in all my .38/.357's.

[kelbro]

It shoots very well in the 38sp brass in my 1894C.

[Tazman1602]

............what happens when you put a problem child down and then go back to working on it after a year of so of study and shooting.

My Ruger NM Vaquero which I started out hating has been tweaked enough now that it's a joy to shoot.

Soooo, I dug out my 358429's and was right back to the issue in my first post on this thread -- too long for the Vaquero when seated and crimped in the groove. Dumb me put one in the cyl of my pistol instead of removing the cylinder and had to fix that first.

Then I just got disgusted and seated them to a length that would work in the Vaquero which is about all the way to the end (or beginning..) of the first driving band and crimped it there with 12 grs of 2400........and shot it.

If I hadn't been pulling shots like I normally do all six would have been covered by a quarter. Hmmm, gun seems to like that.

Worked my way up to EK's load of 13.5 grains 2400 with zero issues and I'll be danged if it didn't get easier and easier to group with it............if I just wasn't shaking and pulling.

I've got a bunch of cases I trimmed back to use with this bullet but I'm thinking I've got some loading and experimenting to do with this bullet. The faster I push it, the better it likes it.

I'm thinking I need two different batches of reloads here. One with bullets seated to the crimp group for my Taurus 669 which handles the length easily, and one bunch for my Vaquero which needs the COL a bit shorter.

Just wanted to give an update since I've gotten back to working with this bullet guys.

Art