45 Colt

[saltydog452]

I asked in another forum of the same name as this, looking for some information about cast bullets and the .45 Colt. It didn't have any views in several days, so I imagine I did something wrong. Maybe I can get it right this time.

Mostly, I'm looking for whatever you'd care to share about the .45 Colt.

I haven't bought a LC mould yet and am just beginning to get my feet wet with Progressive reloading.

Of secondary interest, I'd like to get to factory duplication of 45ACP/230/850, an.d45 Colt/250/900 from the same machine.

Your suggestion and thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,

salty

[Lee]

Welcome to the forum saltydog452, and you WILL find people here who can answer your questions. Search the threads for anything '45 and you will find wealths of information. My own experience with 45LC is that it is a fun cartridge, capable of being loaded from a "popper" to a stout working round. I keep mostly to the lower loaded end, as it affords great plinking at a reasonably low cost. And even a low-vel. hunk of lead rings the steel pretty well.....Lee:-)

[jmsj]

saltydog452,
Welcome to the site.
I think you need to give a little more info on what information you are looking for.
Read the "stickies", lots of good info in them.
In a strong, modern gun the .45 Colt is a very versatile cartridge.
Check out www.lasc.us and castpics for articles about lead, lead alloy, heat treating and lots of cast bullet related articles.
Welcome and good luck, jmsj

[Dframe]

Welcome to the forum. I'll echo what Lee said. 45 Colt is an easy calibre to reload. Most people use from 200-255 grain bullets. I have been using 200 grain commercially cast round nose flat points and Trail Boss powder for quite some time. I generally load lighter because I spend most of my shooting time either plinking or ringing steel targets.

[winelover]

The 45 LC can be handloaded from "Mild to Wild", would help to know what kind of firearm you are inquiring about.

Winelover

[btroj]

I agree with the others. My Blackhawks can be either a fun gun or a real bear to shoot. It will handle loads that I can't.
I also have a Marlin 1894 and it will do the same. Recoil is less a problem but it is a very versatile rifle. My favorite plinkers too.
The cartridge is simple to load for, just watch for double charges as the case has lots of volume. Otherwise it is like any other straight case for revolvers.

[405]

Mild to Wild is right. I prefer the mild for a lot of reasons. It is an old handgun cartridge after all. It was based upon BP 1873 technology. I always thought that if I need the Wild in a 45 handgun I'd get a 454 or just forget the handgun and go to a carbine or a rifle.

This has been beat to death here and has lead to some heated discussions. You can load the 45LC to whatever level you want. But, think about one of those Wild rounds loaded today, for giggles to impress the buds at the range, coffee shop or talk about on an anon. forum, finding its way into a BP Colt sometime in the future :)

I pretty much stick to what Dframe said- 200 gr FRN bullet and sane Trailboss charge for a mild ACCURATE load that is safe, fun to shoot a bunch and easy on the gun- whether it be a 1st Gen Colt, Ruger or FA. If I want to shoot at 50 yards, 100 yards or 300+ yards I'll just pick up a carbine or rifle more suited for the purpose.

[gnoahhh]

The .45 Colt is one of my all time faves. I shoot a 1920 vintage Colt New Service with 8 gr. Unique under a 255gr. SWC, cast at 11BHN. Fills the bill for "just right" in that heavy old gun. Not too mild, not too hot. I don't think I would attempt that level of performance in a black powder single action out of respect for 120year old steel.

[saltydog452]

Thanks all,

I don't plan of encountering T-Rex, but historically correct .45 loads is pretty much where I care to go.

The idea of loading 'blanks' that offer a lot of belch fire smoke, and the impression of gloom and doom in .45 SA'and 1911s would seem like a lot of grins also.

I understand that there is a SASS sub-group that mimicks the arms of 'The Wild Bunch'.

Again, anything that you'd care to share.

sd

[bradh]

I load 250 to 255 gr RNFP with either 8.6gr of Unique or 9.0gr Herco; about duplicates
factory ammo of about 860 fps. Fun to shoot in single actions.

[Rocky Raab]

Welcome, salty.

Rather than stir up the same dust as has already been posted above, allow me to give you a few loads that will give what you seek.

For an "ACP clone" load, try a 230 RN lead bullet either commercial or home-cast over 6.5 RedDot or 7.0 W231. I generally just buy those for convenience because everybody makes them. Crimp lightly just over the beginning of the curve.

In a pleasant coincidence, those two charges will also be a fine load under a 250-ish lead semi-wadcutter or roundnose flatpoint like the cowboy shooters use. I cast those RNFPs from a Lee mould number 452-255-RF. I tumble-lube and shoot them unsized.

Both loads will give you speeds in the mid 800s and fine accuracy.

[Catshooter]

I load mostly with Universal Clays. I 45 ACP I like from 4 to 5 grains over 190 to 250 grain boolits.

In 45 Colt I like 9 grains of Universal to 20 grains of 2400 over 250 to 310 grain boolits.

All depending on what I want that boolit to hit and how hard. I shoot the Colt in revolvers and rifles, the ACP only in short guns. I love both, and I can do allmost all I need to do with a firearm with just those two rounds.

Welcome to the forum by the way.


Cat

[Hardcast416taylor]

For at least the last 25+ years I have both heard and read that a 6 gr. load of Red Dot powder and a 255 gr. lead bullet equals the original factory load velocity of about 900 fps. This is my everyday load in both my Blackhawks. I`ve yet to get a sarcastic letter from a critter I`ve ventilated with this load combo that the slug wasn`t going fast enough!Robert

[btroj]

I have a wide flat nosed group buy that goes about 290 grains. With 10.5 of surplus 105 it runs 950 from my Ruger BH. Abhors very well at 25 yards and recoil is very manageable. Also shoots quite well in the Marlin. I have no doubt it would go through any deer I will ever see.
I view the 45 Colt as a big 44 special. Bullet weight and diameter along with reasonable velocity make it shine. No max loads required.

[Cherokee]

231 does the factory duplication job very well for both 45 Colt and 45 ACP. I like 7 gr 231 under 268 Keith but 8 gr 231 under 255 Keith will get you 900+ fps. I like 5.2 to 5.5 231 under a 230 TC bullet for the 45 ACP. 5.5 should get you about 860 fps. Check your load manuals first and start low, work up.

[TCLouis]

btroj

Is your #105 Milsurp the current (spherical ? ? ) powder version or the old round flakes that mimics Unique?

I can not believe that two powders would go out with same number but different burn rates.

[runfiverun]

for simplicity
find a good 225 rnfp mold and use it in both the colt and the acp.
same boolit same size same lube same powder same alloy.
unique works very well in the acp,and okay in the colt.

[44man]

I can't add any more to this, all fine info.
The .45 is a very pleasant gun to shoot, maybe the very best of all. [smilie=w:

[btroj]

btroj

Is your #105 Milsurp the current (spherical ? ? ) powder version or the old round flakes that mimics Unique?

I can not believe that two powders would go out with same number but different burn rates.

Mine is probably 12 years old or so. Looks like a starndard flattened ball powder. I wish I had bought more than 8 pounds. It works well in so many pistol cartridges.

[45nut]

44man[/B];1092728]I can't add any more to this, all fine info.
The .45 is a very pleasant gun to shoot, maybe the very best of all. [smilie=w:

:holysheep [smilie=l:

[45nut]

I can't add any more to this, all fine info.
The .45 is a very pleasant gun to shoot, maybe the very best of all. [smilie=w:

:holysheep [smilie=l:

[Rocky Raab]

I think some of you mistake the original post (or I did).

What he wants are standard but mild 45 Colt loads and loads in that cartridge that mimic the 45 ACP. At least that's how I read it, and how I replied.

As a side note to btroj, what could you possibly have meant by "Abhors very well at 25 yards?"

[runfiverun]

he stated he was looking for loads/boolits that were close to the original for each cartridge.
the thing is that the acp did mimic the colt, at least the schofield loads that were used later in both the colt and the schofield guns for the army.
the colt loads were with 250 grain bullets at about 900 [depending on bbl length] using black powder.
the acp was near 850 fps.
as were the schofield loads in a 4-5/8ths bbl, with a 230 gr boolit.
velocities varied then as they do now from what the factory's stated and what you really got.

[Rocky Raab]

runfiverun, I do believe you are correct and it was I who misread it. Just shows to go ya, huh?

Nonetheless, the loads I quoted for the 45 Colt are very useful, indeed.

[Catshooter]

In my tiny little mind, the 45 Colt is bested only by the 45 ACP, and that's only 'cause nobody is smart enough to chamber a five shot revolter in 45 Colt, making it small enough to carry. I know Taurus did for a while, but that's not the same as a real manufactuer, in my book.

Six shot 45s are too fat for me, they just are.

Both calibers are incredibly versitle and can perform many many tasks well. The Colt of course is a bit more versitle with it's larger case and rim. Shoots wonderfully with a ton of powders, including the Holy Black. Hard to wrong with either.


Cat

[44man]

:holysheep [smilie=l:
Yes, I enjoy the .45 a lot. It is when you get to serious hunting loads with heavy boolits that a whole new world opens. That is not what the fellow wants, he wants fun loads.
I have to say that you are correct with :holysheep because I do go both ways. Nothing more enjoyable then a day of plinking.
I HATE empty beer cans! :drinks:

[ktw]

In my tiny little mind, the 45 Colt is bested only by the 45 ACP, and that's only 'cause nobody is smart enough to chamber a five shot revolter in 45 Colt, making it small enough to carry.

Freedom Arms Model 97.

-ktw

[runfiverun]

i don't think i have ever had an unuseful load for the 45 colt.
my 165 rnfp's and 5 grs of clays has to be one of the most fun loads to shoot and are great for shooting grouse while up deer hunting with the levergun.
once i figured out i could shoot 165 rnfp's 200,swc's, 225 rnfp's and 250 rnfp's and even the 454429 in all the 45's i have, i got rid of a couple of 45 rn molds for the acp,and my h&g 68 copy too.
they all go through the star without any adjustment too which makes it nice.
if i had to narrow it all down to one mold,or was looking for a first mold it'd be the 225 rnfp [if i could find a 4 cav mold]
if it were for target shooting only i'd go with a 200 to save a bit more lead.

[alamogunr]

btroj

Is your #105 Milsurp the current (spherical ? ? ) powder version or the old round flakes that mimics Unique?

I can not believe that two powders would go out with same number but different burn rates.

Just ran across this thread. Since I have an 8# jug of the #105 that I got from Jeff Bartlett at least 6-7 years ago, I went to the shop to look since I haven't used it since I got it. Mine is the round flakes. I didn't know it was similar to Unique. Does it have the same applications? I got it to use in .45ACP but haven't used any yet for a lot of reasons.

I might just get it out and start loading it.

John
W.TN

[saltydog452]

And I thank you one and all.

salty

[MT Gianni]

Depending on your gun one process to know for the 45 is neck sizing. Some chambers are so oversized that brass life and accuracy suffer. If you only resize the upper 1/3 of the case and deprime on a universal depriming die you get better case life and consistancy. Make sure that you shells chamber that way and mike fired shells against resized ones before deciding if that is what you need to do.

[StrawHat]

Some links for the 45 long Colt

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=69176

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=56552

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cba.htm

And for the ACP

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=63377

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=69598

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=60275

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=82903&highlight=heavy+acp+load

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=80155

There are many more but those will give you some good recipes.

In 45 long Colt, I prefer the 454190 and a full case of black powder when I use my Colt clone. When carrying my S&W M25-5 I like the 260 Keith SWC over 9 grains of Unique. Or the same powder charge under the 285 grain copy of the Keith bullet from RCBS.

When using the S&W M25-2 (45 ACP), I like the 235 grain Keith bullet (454423) and 7 to 7.5 grains of Unique.

Lots of boolits and powders to choose from, but both are fairly easy to like.

Good luck.

[saltydog452]

OOps.

The load that I am looking to find are for a M 25-5, 4". The 4" is a handy size and likely to be a tad more accessable (and lighter).

This can of worms gets more complicated considering that I really would like to use the Hornady powder measure bushings in the progressive press charge bar. The Hornady powder drop uses non adjustable, but easily interchangable, bushings to regulate powder type and quantity.

Hopefully, if I can find a 255/900 load and a 230/850 load for the 45s, I will be able to get the fine folks at Hornady to mail me the appropriate size bushings.

Hornady offers BUNCHES of powder bushings. Considering all the variables involved, a successful search using a 'trial and error' approach would be kinda unlikely.

I am not going to try to shoot through a Bison or win the Revolver match at Camp Perry. I would like the ctgs to be able to do what they excelled in doing several decades ago.

Maybe that is a bit clearer.

Thanks again,

salty

[geargnasher]

Depending on your gun one process to know for the 45 is neck sizing. Some chambers are so oversized that brass life and accuracy suffer. If you only resize the upper 1/3 of the case and deprime on a universal depriming die you get better case life and consistancy. Make sure that you shells chamber that way and mike fired shells against resized ones before deciding if that is what you need to do.

+1. IF you're only loading for one revolver and shooting sub-14,000CUP loads, this works great. Makes a finished cartridge that looks like the .44-40wcf with the slight neck-down. Doubles brass life in particularly large chambers (I have a Ruger New Vaquero with almost .495" chambers). The Lee carbide sizer die combined with a decapping rod from the Lee universal decapper die (longer rod) can be set up to size only the part the boolit will be occupying when seated, and the longer rod will still decap in the same step. This also greatly improves accuracy.

Gear

[Catshooter]

salty,

You should measure the throats of your 25-5. They are know to be large. I have one and it's throats are all quite consistant at .455, so I cast & size accordingly.


Cat

[MtGun44]

"some chambers are so oversized. . . ."

.45 Long Colt is a tapered cartridge, insisting on loading it with carbide dies will
certainly overwork the brass at the base. The oversized chambers is really what the
design is. The carbide dies size straight and the brass is then undersized at the
rear for the tapered chamber.

Measure the base of a carbide sized case and then the rear of a .45 Long Colt
chamber, esp the SAAs which DEFINED the cartridge.

I used an old set of steel RCBS dies for my .45 Colt loads, much better fit.

Bill

[saltydog452]

Cat,

If you have a large throated cylinder and the slugs are accordingly .002-.003 over size, wouldn't that cause problems at the forcing cone? That assumes a std configuration barrel.

Mtgun,

Got it. I was hoping to run these through a progressive. The more I read about the .45 Colt , the more doubtful that becomes.

Thanks,

salty

[Char-Gar]

I have been shooting the 45 Colt round since about 1963. I first had a pair of Colt New Service sixguns. I have had Colt SSA and clones, plus a number of Ruger BHs. Today I have a Reeder custom BH and a Colt New Service.

I like 8.5/Unique over 452423 (240 grains) or 454424 (260 grains). This gives 800 to 900 fps depending on the bullet weight and the barrel length. This is very close to factor loads and plenty of juice for most any purpose.

For just a little more punch I used RCBS 270 SSA over 20/H4227. I reserve this heavier load for the Ruger. It kicks the bullet out about 1,000 fps and is all the punch needed for deer. I have never shot those mega loads that some folks do. Never had a reason to do so.

[Byron Cromwell]

The first load I ever put together for the .45 Colt in a 1st Generation SAA was 8.0 grains Unique behind a 454190 sized to .454. I cannot say the bullets were REAL accurate as load testing on a worn (and slightly pitted) Bisley was not extensive. I think I worked it up to 8.5 grains and left it there. When I got the Anaconda I used 9.0 grains Unique and either 454190 or 454424 Semiwadcutter. These were range loads to make the 20" steel plate ring at 25 yards offhand. Start there and have fun.

[geargnasher]

"some chambers are so oversized. . . ."

.45 Long Colt is a tapered cartridge, insisting on loading it with carbide dies will
certainly overwork the brass at the base. The oversized chambers is really what the
design is. The carbide dies size straight and the brass is then undersized at the
rear for the tapered chamber.

Measure the base of a carbide sized case and then the rear of a .45 Long Colt
chamber, esp the SAAs which DEFINED the cartridge.

I used an old set of steel RCBS dies for my .45 Colt loads, much better fit.

Bill

I'm not saying you're wrong, but my guns and chamber drawings are different from yours I guess. I have four guns chambered in .45 Colt (not 'long' Colt, anybody ever know Colt to make a .45 Short?) now and a handfull of others in the family, all of them have straight chambers as far as I can tell. Some fired brass comes out .495" on the New Vaquero, .473" on my Open Top, NEF is close at .482", Henry is .478". Spec from two loading books show .480" chamber dimension. Keep in mind the brass springback, I don't know how much that is.

Now, if you're shooting .452" boolits and the case wall averages .010" thick, you'll have a loaded diameter of .472". Lee carbide gives about .465" sized diameter, then I have to expand to .471 OD or so for seating. If you drop that in to the Ruger chamber, it rattles around like throwing a BB in a boxcar. Fits the Open Top quite well, but that little cylinder is pushed to the limits with .45 Colt and I think the dimensions are minimized. Wish they all were. If I want the Ruger to shoot straight I have to segregate brass and neck size.

I have an RCBS die set and it sizes the brass less, not sure if the die is tapered but it might be. That would be a good thing if it was, giving neck tension withoug oversizing the rest of the case.

Overall, I maintain that in the guns I've seen, most of them need either much larger boolits and barrels, much thicker brass, or somebody at the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Institute seriously needs to pull their heads out of their a$$es and fix this. I've never had any problem with chamber dimensions in .44 Magnum, .357 Magnum, or .38 Special, and I've never seen a tapered chamber on one of those, either, though I must admit I never measured them to find out.

Gear

[MT Gianni]

"some chambers are so oversized. . . ."

.45 Long Colt is a tapered cartridge, insisting on loading it with carbide dies will
certainly overwork the brass at the base. The oversized chambers is really what the
design is. The carbide dies size straight and the brass is then undersized at the
rear for the tapered chamber.

Measure the base of a carbide sized case and then the rear of a .45 Long Colt
chamber, esp the SAAs which DEFINED the cartridge.

I used an old set of steel RCBS dies for my .45 Colt loads, much better fit.

Bill

I am ready to try a non carbide die. I looked in 8 manuals today and could not find any dimensions describing a tapered cartridge.

[geargnasher]

I'm ready to try a custom sized carbide die, use trimmed and turned .454 brass, and get a new cylinder for my Ruger that is somewhere closer to specs.

Great cartridge, maybe one of the greatest for handgun, but it has been royally screwed up.

Gear

[C1PNR]

You really do need to slug the cylinder mouth of each chamber in that 25-5. I bought mine, 4" barrel, used, in 1981 and immediately had trouble getting it to shoot straight. I pretty much gave up on it and used it for nothing but plinking with, mostly, factory loads.

I finally pulled it out and checked the cylinder. Five measured .458 and the other one was .459.:shock: No wonder it shot so bad.

Last year I gave in and sent it off to Hamilton Bowen who fit a new cylinder with .454" chambers, all of them.

I'm now, finally, starting to have some fun with it! And yes, in the S&W you really don't want to "hot rod" the loads. Those 850 to 950 fps loads with the 454 423 @ 425 grains is a joy to shoot. I save the stout loads for the RBH, but still don't go much over 1,000 to 1,080 fps.

Yeah, in the bad old days when I first bought the Ruger I just had to try turning it into a .45 Magnum, for a while anyway. It really wasn't much fun shooting those Ideal 454 424 cast at 264 gr, and I guess I finally grew up and brought the loads down to where they are now.

Good luck with the measurements, and have fun.

[felix]

On this subject, I am on your side, if there is one, Gear! The current chamber arrangement for the 45Colt just plain sucks big time. I would not care if the cowboy guns were "standard" , i.e., what-you-see-is-what-you-get, but the lever guns? However, the very late Winnie I have has the latest 26 twist, and that makes up for its ugly chamber in terms of being a very accurate out-of-the-box gun. Never had to move the sights using the Lyman 190 at about 900fps, shooting at 80 or so yards. ... felix

[TomAM]

About 20 years ago I wrote to RCBS and Redding, asking if they could provide 45 Colt case sizing dies that weren’t so much smaller than 45 Colt chambers. I received a very thoughtful response from Redding, explaining the problems associated with trying to retro-fit SAAMI specs to a cartridge that pre-dates such regulation by many decades. One of the more revealing notes was that commercial dies are expected to make the old paper thin balloon head cases firmly grip the post-war standard .451 bullets, something they were never intended to do. The result is a cartridge that rattles around in your chamber, ruining accuracy.

I finally solved the problem for myself by shortening a Lee 45-70 sizing die by cutting off the bottom, and using it to full length size my 45 cases, then neck size only with a carbide 45 Colt die. The 45-70 die, which is of course tapered, sizes the cases for a perfect slip fit into any one of the 47 different 45 Colt chambers in my collection, regardless of what firearm it was used in last. Neck sizing then produces proper bullet tension, although when I used .456 boolits to fit the sloppy throats of my S&W 25-5s, neck sizing was not necessary.

Cast boolits swage down to bore diameter quite easily, so don’t worry about a big pressure spike when using the over-sized boolits that your 25-5 is going to require for accuracy.

[felix]

Good move, Tom. But the brass is still deformed for lasting power loads (rifle) at the case base because of premature pocket stretch. Nothing better than "BR" chambers for accuracy and power. Add 0.001 to the new case base going to be used in that gun for the ID of the chamber, making sure the neck allows the same value as to cover the brass plus boolit thickness. ... felix

[geargnasher]

That's a good idea, Tom. I've been through 'Cartridges of the World' looking for a suitable die body to use, but wasn't looking for a taper at the time so it didn't occur to me to try that one.

While I neck size fireformed brass when I need optimum accuracy, I still think I could do better with thicker brass, especially in the rifles. Perhaps cutting down and fireforming 307 Winchester brass and then turning the the rims down to .45 Colt specs might help. Having double-digit chamber "neck" clearances is no bueno in the accuracy department.

Gear

[ktw]

Having double-digit chamber "neck" clearances is no bueno in the accuracy department.

Load a larger diameter bullet.

There are older 454190 molds out there that throw as large .458. The lighter weight 45/70 bullets sized at .457 also shoot well for me in a 45 Colt carbine.

-ktw

[felix]

That's about the only thing practical for accuracy, KTW, for the light loads that do not stretch the back of the case. The 45-70 modern mini-midi loads (30-35K cup) are the problem. ... felix

[cajun shooter]

A BIG +1 geargnasher for your post!! I can't understand why people insist on calling the round the 45LC. I do however know where it comes from as you do. The 1873 Colt was released with the 45 Colt cartridge just like the Winchester 1873 and the 44-40. The problem with the Colt was because of a officer by the name of Schofield. He wanted a better revolver for mounted troops and went to S&W with his idea. In short they built the top break S&W in 45 Schofield. Now this is were logistics began to have hell. The mounted troops would receive the 45 Colt rounds which were of no use to them and the Infantry would receive the Schofield ammo which would not always work in their revolvers without some small fitting. The Army decided to use only the Schofield round for both revolvers and the problem was solved. During this time the soldiers themselves were calling the 45 Colt the long one and the Schofield the short one. The 45 Colt however was never given this name in any official paper work. So those that continue to call it the 45 LC are QUITE WRONG!! Salty Dog I have had some very nice 45 Colt revolvers. The best were the USFA as they arew made with a .4525 bore. I had custom molds made for the dropping of .455 bullets with larger lube grooves that looked like the original 454190 bullet. When lubed and sized to .454 my guns would shoot out the x-ring at 20 yards. If you buy commercial bullets they will be too hard and undersized for most guns. Slug your bore and use bullets that are at least .001-.002 larger. If you want to shoot the same load that was fired by the real people of that time period then use "BLACK POWDER" You will have tons of fun when done the real way. Later David

[ktw]

That's about the only thing practical for accuracy, KTW, for the light loads that do not stretch the back of the case. The 45-70 modern mini-midi loads (30-35K cup) are the problem. ... felix

I don't load much more than a 300 to 340gr bullet over more than 21.0-22.0 gr H110, and you are right, that tends to be a sub 30k cup load.

Those loads give me 1400-1450fps. For what the little carbine is, and what I use it for, I don't see any point in loading heavier than that. I have not found it necessary to routinely full-length size the brass.

-ktw

[geargnasher]

Load a larger diameter bullet.

There are older 454190 molds out there that throw as large .458. The lighter weight 45/70 bullets sized at .457 also shoot well for me in a 45 Colt carbine.

-ktw

I've done a little work with the Lee 457-340 sized down to .453", but there's no hope for my Ruger. "double digit" clearances means more than .010", and my Ruger has .023" larger chambers than loaded diameter at .4525, for over .011" clearance between case "neck" and chamber. Even if the boolit is a snug fit in the throat, it can easily get the base pushed off-center considerably upon firing. Just illustrating the point that the variances in the caliber aren't always, or even often, correctable by going up a couple of thousandths on boolit diameter.

Gear

[felix]

Yep, Gear, correct you are. Maybe OK if 90 percent of the boolit is in the cylinder's freebore (throat) with no slop. What a deal, and destroys the ideology of the revolter. ... felix

[saltydog452]

Just me being dumb again but, other than fostering a cottage industry, why would mfgrs not make all holes kinda closer to barrel ID?

I don't get it.

Maybe they're simply trying to re-introduce the Edsel.

sd

[Catshooter]

Saltydog,

Nope. No problem at all.


Cat

[StrawHat]

I've done a little work with the Lee 457-340 sized down to .453", but there's no hope for my Ruger. "double digit" clearances means more than .010", and my Ruger has .023" larger chambers than loaded diameter at .4525, for over .011" clearance between case "neck" and chamber. Even if the boolit is a snug fit in the throat, it can easily get the base pushed off-center considerably upon firing. Just illustrating the point that the variances in the caliber aren't always, or even often, correctable by going up a couple of thousandths on boolit diameter.

Gear


Is that not something Ruger Customer Service would correct? (Does Ruger have a CS department?)

[geargnasher]

yes they do. When asked what to do about a Mini-14 that shot 5" groups at 100 yards with three different brands of factory ammo, I was told it was within their 6" spec, at 50!. IIRC their spec for revolvers is 6" at 25. This gun will shoot 2" at 25 yards all day long from a rest, and a friend of mine can do that offhand, so I doubt they would consider my oversized cylinders a problem. The problem is my Uberti Bisley will do that at 50 yards from a rest with the same ammo. And since, according to the manufacturers, I'm not supposed to be shooting reloads in any of my guns anyway, why should I be concerned about brass life from the Ruger's cavernous chambers bulging it like a bunch of pregnant guppies? When I called and asked about the thread choke, I was told that the gun was make for jacketed bullets and that shooting them instead would solve my leading issues.

Gear

[StrawHat]

yes they do. When asked what to do about a Mini-14 that shot 5" groups at 100 yards with three different brands of factory ammo, I was told it was within their 6" spec, at 50!. IIRC their spec for revolvers is 6" at 25. This gun will shoot 2" at 25 yards all day long from a rest, and a friend of mine can do that offhand, so I doubt they would consider my oversized cylinders a problem. The problem is my Uberti Bisley will do that at 50 yards from a rest with the same ammo. And since, according to the manufacturers, I'm not supposed to be shooting reloads in any of my guns anyway, why should I be concerned about brass life from the Ruger's cavernous chambers bulging it like a bunch of pregnant guppies? When I called and asked about the thread choke, I was told that the gun was make for jacketed bullets and that shooting them instead would solve my leading issues.

Gear

So, they are aware of the problem and prefer to think of it as being "in spec". Nice of them. I have not owned many Rugers and sold all of them back in the 80s, so I was unaware of the company line on revolvers. Sorry you are having trouble.

[Char-Gar]

A couple of thoughts on handloading cast bullet in the 45 Colt:

The older non-carbide sizing does don't squeeze the cases down near as far as the current dies do. I hunted up a 1958 vintage RCBS and although I need to lube the cases, it does much, much better.

Ruger chambers are quite large except in the throats. I had Reeder open up the throats on my BH to .454. If a fellow just neck sizes his cases, with current dies, he will get a better fit in the loose charge holes of the Ruger. Accuracy will also be better as the bullet hold the front end aligned and the expanded rear of the case centers the round in the chamber.

Some of the Colts and clones with monster throat diameters are pretty much doomed to lackluster accuracy.

[45 2.1]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but my guns and chamber drawings are different from yours I guess. I have four guns chambered in .45 Colt (not 'long' Colt, anybody ever know Colt to make a .45 Short?) Gear

Rem-UMC made the 45 Short Colt cartridge circa the early 1900s. The cartridge differed only in case length and was marked as 45 Short Colt (or some such). Cartridge collectors have full factory boxes from that time period.

[geargnasher]

Wow, Bob, you really know how to reach for it, don't you?

The common reference comes from the .45 Schofield, which would be a .45 Short Colt except it isn't a Colt cartridge, it's a S&W creation. How did the Short Colt to which you refer compare to the Schofield? Sure is wasn't just a way of labeling that got around trade name rights?

Gear

[45 2.1]

Wow, Bob, you really know how to reach for it, don't you?

The common reference comes from the .45 Schofield, which would be a .45 Short Colt except it isn't a Colt cartridge, it's a S&W creation. How did the Short Colt to which you refer compare to the Schofield? Sure is wasn't just a way of labeling that got around trade name rights?

Gear

No, the Schofield is an entirely different cartridge. I'm not reaching for it either, Rem-UMC did make the 45 Short Colt cartridge. Ask a good cartridge collector or seller for a sample. Ask Mike Ven. also as he knows the story about it also. You owe me one.

[alamogunr]

No, the Schofield is an entirely different cartridge. I'm not reaching for it either, Rem-UMC did make the 45 Short Colt cartridge. Ask a good cartridge collector or seller for a sample. Ask Mike Ven. also as he knows the story about it also. You owe me one.

I would like to hear the story of the "Short Colt" cartridge. Maybe Mr. Venturino would chime in with a reference.

This was all I was able to find on the site I go to when I have questions about old cartridges:
http://tinyurl.com/3ah8bom

John
W.TN

[Matt_G]

I would like to hear the story of the "Short Colt" cartridge. Maybe Mr. Venturino would chime in with a reference.

I'm not Mike V obviously but here is a link to a post of his on this subject on this very forum. :)
Here is a link to the thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=29012
Here are links to the two relevant posts:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=528054&postcount=78
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=528065&postcount=79

[geargnasher]

No, the Schofield is an entirely different cartridge. I'm not reaching for it either, Rem-UMC did make the 45 Short Colt cartridge. Ask a good cartridge collector or seller for a sample. Ask Mike Ven. also as he knows the story about it also. You owe me one.

I didn't say you were making it up, I said you were reaching for it. It's a real stretch to bother adding the "long" to .45 Colt, which was originally introduced in 1873 AS THE .45 COLT, whether or not UMC bothered to make an obscure short version at some point and CALL it the .45 Short Colt. You can call the Short Colt the Short Colt but that dosn't make the regular Colt Long, since in any given conversation you or I are ever likely to have with anyone will likely never yield any confusion whatsoever from lack of specifying LONG or SHORT.

"Oh, man, I was so confused, you didn't say 'long Colt', I was certain you meant the short one that was only offered by one BP cartridge manufacturer for a couple of decades and no guns were specifically chambered for it."

The shorter Schofield, introduced in 1875 by SMITH AND WESSON, might be almost dimensionally correct to be considered a .45 Short, and in fact with the military contract biddings and Colt's sole rights to the .45 Colt is the only reason it came to exist. It could be fired in a .45 Colt revolver, as well as the Schofield, but it wasn't a COLT round. I was under the impression that the total interchangeability of the S&W round was what created the "long" and "short" terminology way back when.

Gear

[runfiverun]

gear it's what the soldiers called it.
people weren't educated, and called things as they seen them not what the ordinance officers wanted them to call them.
if it fit and shot it was used.
some were long some were short and after a bit they all come short,
and they were mostly being shot in colt's.
the s&w's were for calvary.
kinda like a 7mm is called a 7mm even though the groove designation is 7.21
and the 30 cal's are 30 bores, but the 358 win is a 358 groove.
and the 44 is a 43 sept the 44-40's were origionally 427's and the 38-40 isn't a 38 it's a 40
and it didn't take 40 grs of powder either.

[Piedmont]

It would have been perfectly logical to call the .45 Colt the Long Colt. Let me give you an example. We have the New Vaquerro and the old Vaquerro. The old Vaquerro was never called the Old Vaquerro, but that is what people are calling it now.

[geargnasher]

Yes I know about the Vaquero. Good example of people bastardizing established language because of changing times. It was the Vaquero, and now there is the New Vaquero. I don't see "Old Model Vaquero" stamped on the "old" guns, but I sure do see a "New" engraved on the side of the grip frame of my Ruger SAA-style revolver. The "new" should be sufficient to avoid confusion.

Gear

[btroj]

I love a good argument so.......
I call it the 45 colt. Father in law calls it the 45 long colt.
I go with the "official" name as given by Colt way back when father in law was a boy. Over the years it has been called the long colt but was it ever the "officlal" name?
Is there a 45 auto? Or just a 45 ACP?
Could go on for hours but it would only irritate me.
Call it what you want as long as you recognize it as one the great cartridges in history.

[StrawHat]

...Call it what you want as long as you recognize it as one the great cartridges in history...

I can live with that. A great cartridge and adding a modifier does nothing to change that.

[alamogunr]

Before this thread got sidetracked onto "Long" vs "Short" Colt, the discussion was about whether the .45 Colt was cylindrical or tapered. According to a notification email I received, but never found in the thread, the SAAMI specs show it as a cylindrical cartridge but the chamber as tapered(by .0056"). ??

1. What happened to the post?

2. Is .0056" taper enough to cause problems when sized in a carbide die?

3. Although I did not verify it by a SAAMI drawing, the same missing post indicated that .45 ACP, .44 Mag, and .44 Spec. are tapered too.

It would seem that this malady(?) affects many of our favorite cartridges.

John
W.TN

[Daddyfixit]

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/45%20Colt.pdf
SAAMI 45 COLT

[alamogunr]

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/45%20Colt.pdf
SAAMI 45 COLT

That is the same link that was in the email notification of the missing post by foxtrotter. That is where I got the .0056" taper on the .45 Colt. Actually the taper is .0028 or half the dimension(I think).

I suppose the question should have been: Is that taper present in modern revolvers, Ruger for instance?

Or am I beating a dead horse(I thought we had a smiley for that).

John
W.TN

[foxtrotter]

That is the same link that was in the email notification of the missing post by foxtrotter. That is where I got the .0056" taper on the .45 Colt. Actually the taper is .0028 or half the dimension(I think).

I suppose the question should have been: Is that taper present in modern revolvers, Ruger for instance?

Or am I beating a dead horse(I thought we had a smiley for that).

John
W.TN

I deleted the post because I didn't think it furthered the discussion.
Dennis