Long range bullet for Marlin 1895

[seppos]

I have 1895 GG.
I made a little challange to some .308 boys with j-word bullets about long range shooting..:)
There is some pritty good .45 boolit models for the 45-70, but Marlin design si not suitable for them.
Does anybody have any suggestion for the Long range bullet, or should it be designed..

It needs to be accurate, remain its stability to + 1000 yards and have relatively good BC..

Bar is open..:-D

S

[btroj]

That bullet is not going to be a good fit with the Marlin 1895. You are looking for bullets like the black powder cartridge silhouette shooters use. They frequently run over 500 grains and will lead to an overall length way beyond what the Marlin will allow. Deep seating the bullet to allow it to cycle thru the action will eat up lots of powder space.
I am no expert on long range big bore shooting but would suggest you go to the black powder cartridge forum and ask there about your needs. They are they guys with the experience in this area.
Good luck in you quest but I don't think you have the right gun for this challenge.

[starnbar]

That nosler 300 gr ppt works pretty good you can seat heavier lead bullets out if you manually load them in the chamber which i do in my winchester they won't feed through the magazine. it might work or maybe not depends on what you want to do.

[HORNET]

Does it HAVE to feed through the action or could you single-load them? There are lots more options single-loading and better BC's if you don't have to use the magazine. 405's CAN be used, but heavier might be better. Watch the nose fit on the rifling, I understand the bores tend to run big on those barrels.

[white eagle]

I do believe there are better platforms for 1000 yd shooting
most of the long range rifle I see are bolt action
I don't ever think I have seen a lever action long range rig

[Doc Highwall]

You can do pretty good with a 405 grain bullet that will feed through the magazine. If you are going to shoot a longer bullet like the Lyman 457125 and load it directly into the chamber it will have to be fired because the over all length will be too long to eject.

[pdawg_shooter]

My best Marlin bullet is a Lyman 451114 patched up to .459.

[seppos]

The trick in this is to use the Guide Gun..;)
It looks so far from a presicion rifle, but is actually a sleeper, when it comes to accuracy.
Back in the old days they used the black powder as propellant, so it is not very difficult to get the same speeds with the modern powders..
This even when the powder capacity might be limited.
I have Lymans 457125, but it has to be single loaded, so it would not be my first option.

It might be good if it looks a bit like bigger version from 311466 with tiny meplat to make it safe in tubular magazine..
Weight could be someting like 500 grs or maybe more..

Few have ever thought about the possibilities that the compact and old fashioned levergun could offer..
It would be a big fun to pop some rocks from far distance with it..


S

[seppos]

Hmm.. Lyman 457676 looks promising..
Anybody have any experiences with it in Marlin?

S

[fredj338]

The trick in this is to use the Guide Gun..;)
It looks so far from a presicion rifle, but is actually a sleeper, when it comes to accuracy.
Back in the old days they used the black powder as propellant, so it is not very difficult to get the same speeds with the modern powders..
This even when the powder capacity might be limited.
I have Lymans 457125, but it has to be single loaded, so it would not be my first option.

It might be good if it looks a bit like bigger version from 311466 with tiny meplat to make it safe in tubular magazine..
Weight could be someting like 500 grs or maybe more..

Few have ever thought about the possibilities that the compact and old fashioned levergun could offer..
It would be a big fun to pop some rocks from far distance with it..


S
My GG is a great shooter, but not 1000yd accuracy, not IMO. TO me, that means sub MOA & I have yet to find anything that shoots, lead or jacketed that will do that. Still, hitting large objects out far for fun can certainly be done. I've not gone to 1000yds, but have plinked w/ heavy 44mag loads in a psitol to 500yds w/ some success. I just wouldn't expect much frome the GG muhc beyond that either.
The bullet I am using now is the RCBS 325F. It casts around 340gr from ww alloy & is giving me 2MOA @ 100yds @ 1650fps.

[Doc Highwall]

You can always tell them that the match is to be shot standing and start practicing like hell and beat them.

[beagle]

I've used a #18 Saeco in my M95 and it shoots really well and feeds through the action. Weighs 412 grains. My shooting partner kept it for awhile and used it in his .45/70 Browning BPCR and it cut the mustard at 800 yards on sillywets so the potential accuracy is there. The bullet and cartridge will do just fine....BUT......

.....I don't know of a sight you could put on a M95 to allow it to get on target at a thousand yards. Maybe you could lay it in with a M1A1 Gunner's Quadrant placed on the barrel like we did in the Army with artillery.

Or, I suppose with a long slided receiver sight of some configuration you could get on target. Just seems like you're trying to make your point the hard way./beagle

[seppos]

I have had two Marlins in 45-70. An old one with the microgrooved barrel and this current guide gun. Both of them have given me MOA or little under MOA accuracy from 100 meters from 100 meters.. This with 350 grain Hornady flat and softpoints.
As I have had red dot sights in them only, I could suspect that with proper optics the goal could be achieved.
http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/seppos_photos/ville1.jpg

Basicly what is needed, is accurate weapon with proper optics, accurate cartridge, and the skill needed to shoot long ranges..

People already knew how to shoot long time ago..
22 shots from 1000 yards.. year 1886
http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/seppos_photos/1866.jpg

S

[Dan Cash]

325 grain bullets do not have the sectional density and BC for 1000 yar shooting in .45 cal. Sight radius of guide gun is too short for precise long range work with iron sights and a modeern scope will not give you the elevation required. I am not sure that the Guide gun has fast enough rifling twist to stabilize 500 grain bullets; my 1895 CB does not. Wind will push a lighter bullet all over the place at 1000, even when pushed to velocities above the black powder level, tha is 1000-1300 fps. You will not achieve targets such as posted by seppos with a guide gun.

[seppos]

Is that based on practical knowledge or theorys..
In some time people believed that the earth is flat..
Did it based on reality or theory..;)

S

[rhbrink]

seppos, I happen to have a .460 boolit that looks much like a L311466. I designed this boolit for offhand shooting in the BPCR game, long bearing surface with lots of big and deep grease grooves. The idea was to shoot subsonic to 200 meters in a 45-90, taking up some powder space to cut down on recoil and maybe allow me to get off 6 to 7 shots with out using a blow tube mainly to allow more time for holding and sighting on them pesky chickens. It worked out very well will easily shoot MOA out to 200 yards never shot it any farther than that as that was all I ask of it. I have shot it some in a TC 45-70 with light charges of Unique and it shoots very well at 100 yards but at 500 grains it is more than I need in that light rifle and have lighter boolits that serve my purpose well enough.

I do think that this would work and feed through a lever action but would take up a lot of space inside your case but with modern powders it might be OK. If you could work it up to 1300 Fps or maybe a little faster it might do the job for you. If interested let me know. I might add that recoil would be "brisk".

Richard

[seppos]

Recoil is no problem with my set.. I have supressor in my rig that cuts the 400 grain full power load under the recoil of .308..
Could you post some pics or other specs from the bullet?
One option is to design and order it from mountain moulds..
As hard cast it might be best to have without gascheck..

S

[rhbrink]

I don't have a camera think about one now and then but too many groups buys and powder, primers, well you know. I did go do some measuring I have only cast thse up soft 30/1 and 20/1
OAL= 1.315 weight = 500 grains
Bearing length = .900
Base band diameter =.460
Front band Diameter =.458
There is a short bore ride section in front of the first band =.448
Five grease grooves that measure .080 wide by .030 deep
No crimp groove
Big round nose with a very small meplat
This boolit could take up .900 inches of volume inside of your case if you were able to seat it out of course it would be less, that would be something to consider for powder and pressures.
If you like I could send you a few to load and try might give some idea of what to you will need to make this work.

[Trifocals]

Wolfe's book on loading for and shooting the Trapdoor Springfield has ballistic tables for both the 405gr and the 500gr bullets. These are proven tables, not theoretical. You should be able to find a near duplicate of the 405gr government carbine bullet that will fit and feed through your Marlin. Once you have the proper, bullet use a chronograph to develop an accurate smokeless powder load that duplicates the velocity of the 405gr government carbine bullet. Your ballistics should then be virtually the same as those shown in the original government tables. The next step would be to install a high quality vernier sight on the tang of your Marlin. The sight should be adjustable for windage as well as elevation and it must be capable of being laid down so the Marlin's bolt will clear. Next, install a good globe front sight with an integral spirit level. The sight should have interchangeable inserts. If the vernier rear sight does not have windage adjustment capabilities, then install a windage adjustable front sight. As explained in Wolfe's book, the Buffington sight on Trapdoor Springfields compensated for bullet drift caused by bullet rotation as the sight was adjusted for various ranges. I do not believe that any modern sight has that capability, so one must develop their own chart for drift and compensate by adjusting for rotational drift with their sight. This of course is in addition to adjusting for the wind. Once you get everything dialed in properly there is no reason why your GG should not be capable of going head to head with a .308 at 1000 yds. I just happened to remember the Malcom scope. It is a modern rendition of an old time scope, made by Leatherwood. If it has sufficient range of elevation it could be the best answer for a long range sight. LOL

[seppos]

I do have quick load and quick target so the simulations are not problem.
I was considering to borrow the sight from my TRG 42 .338 LM.
It is Zeiss 3-12X56 T. That or maybe a Nightforce or tac- Leupy with properly tapered moa rail should do the trick.
And why should not.. As people are shooting to a mile with similar settings with modern cartridges..;)

S

[eldon519]

If I'm not mistaken, one of the advantages BP has for this type of shooting is that it has very low velocity standard deviation shot-to-shot which is important when your trajectory looks like a rainbow.

What are you planning to use to aim with? As mentioned, I doubt any scope will have that kind of elevation adjustment without an extremely tapered base. The other option that comes to mind would be a rear ladder sight.

[seppos]

Yes.. BP is good in that sence.. One just have to find proper powder and load with as little standard dev..
I will use a optical sight with proper tapered base..
There is 40 moa rails readily available, and if I need more, I could do it by myself..
I played with JBM a bit.. here a simulation about 1500 fps load with 500 grs round nose J-word bullet..
http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/seppos_photos/4570.jpg

Not so complicated if there is alreaady 40 moa drop in the rail..

S

[fredj338]

I have had two Marlins in 45-70. An old one with the microgrooved barrel and this current guide gun. Both of them have given me MOA or little under MOA accuracy from 100 meters from 100 meters.. This with 350 grain Hornady flat and softpoints.
As I have had red dot sights in them only, I could suspect that with proper optics the goal could be achieved.

Basicly what is needed, is accurate weapon with proper optics, accurate cartridge, and the skill needed to shoot long ranges..

People already knew how to shoot long time ago..
22 shots from 1000 yards.. year 1886
http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/seppos_photos/1866.jpg

S
I agree, but a 1895GG is NOT a Shuetzen rifle. The best shooter & load can NOT make a marginal performing rifle shoot well. The GG is a good rifle for what it is, but I just don't see it as 1000yd accurate. I can get closet to MOA w/ my little 2X scope & 350gr JHP. I am sure a better trigger & scoep would get me right there, but the lockup, sights & trigger are the short points of any lever gun. If lever guns were as acurate as bolt or single shots, we would see many at long range rifle shoots, even BP shoots, but you just don't.

[seppos]

It is not I agree, but the tool of the trade is only a small part of the puzzle called long range shooting. The better accuracy of the weapon only gives more margin for other errors..
And in the end the sum of all factors is the the result: hit or miss..
That could be understood only by doing. Not by any other way.

And in the end.. It is going to be fun..;)

S

[btroj]

How many 500 grain bullets do you plain on shooting at 1500? In a rifle as light as the Marlin it is going to hurt. A lot.
I have seen too many photos of the guys at BP silhouette matches using recoil pads on their shoulda. And they are shooting 12 pound plus rifles with bullets in that weight range going 1200 or so.
Me thinks you are trying to make your rifle into something it is not.

[seppos]

Maybe..;)
Efective supressor can do amazing things to a rifle..;)
Back to business.. I measured the Lyman 457125 and it is about 1.3 inches long. As Marlin has 1:20 inch rifling it should need about 1300 fps to stabilize..
I only checked the reloadersnest so far for the loads.. It gives 1696 fps for one 500 grs cast load.
So.. Pritty wide window to play with..;)

S

[1Shirt]

Think your quest for 1000 yd accuracy in that rifle is akin to the quest for the Holy Grail. Agree with Beagle on sights for the amount of ark you will get. As to recoil, I will await your results and the number of shots that you take from the bench. Agree with Btroj on the issue of recoil. Suggest sissy pad would make common sense. Also of consideration is the target. If I were going to screw with 1000 yd with that rifle, think I would have a sheet of plywood, 4x8' painted white with a 4' black bullseye. Suggest you have witnesses and photos, cause there are a lot of BPCTG's shooters that will have to be shown (as in seein is believin) type thing!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[seppos]

Might do that..;)
I have two 1 inch IPSC sized armor plates that I use with .338 LM when I dont wanna walk to the target..;) They give nice sound.. like church bell when hit with a bullet.

S

[coford]

The things you suggest sound good but do not work in the real world. I shoot my BPCR at 1000 yards a lot at our local range. Several things have to come together to consistently hit the target (6' X 6') at those ranges. Heavy bullets, lots of elevation in your sights, and lots of practice. With my 550 grain bullet at 1300 fps it takes 162 minutes of elevation from 100 to 1000 yards and a travel time of around three seconds. I have a Marlin 1895 CB in 45-70 and I can't even get a 500 grain bullet in it with 50 grains of black powder ( which only yields about 1000 fps). My Marlin shoots 360 grain RD bullets really good - out to 300 and then they start falling apart. I have several 410 grain moulds that I can get to shoot decent to 500 but beyond that you need the heavier, longer bullets and they just don't work in a Marlin. Remember that the sound barrier really messes with bullets when you come back through it. The bullets usually destabilize and can miss the target by yards - not inches.

[hickstick_10]

why not just buy a single shot?

1000 yards with a rear locking lever gun that has a tube mag and a short barrel? Oh well stranger things have been attempted, keep us posted.

Robert Duvall wasn't your inspiration for this by any chance?

Clip from lonesome dove.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UhypY-pUg

[Bullshop]

They have a lever gun class at the Quiggley.
Also remember that a shorter barrel or more correctly shorter sight radius will increase the value of sight adjustment increments. So say a 34" barrel with tang mounted mid range sight may only get you to 800 yards but a 24" barrel with the same sight may have enough adjustment to get you to 1000 yards or more.
If you have a lever gun that will shoot 1.5 to 2 moa with the correct boolits for long range you should be well in the game. If you shoot smokeless powder you will even be able to load to an OAL that will feed through the action if need be. If the boolits have a profile that may be dangerous to stack in the magazine you may still have to load one at a time even if they do feed.
Forget the naysayers and go for it. Trying is also a part of the fun.

[dubber123]

Getting to over BP velocities with smokeless and 500+ grain boolits is no trick in a Marlin. I shot some of the Lyman 535 gr. Postells from mine, (single loaded). They shot the tightest group yet from my gun. Good luck!

[seppos]

First thing first..;)
http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/seppos_photos/4570shot.jpg

S

[Dan Cash]

Is that based on practical knowledge or theorys..
In some time people believed that the earth is flat..
Did it based on reality or theory..;)

S

Based upon reality but you all go ahead and have fun.

[Old Goat Keeper]

You all need to go to Marlin Owners and read the stickies on long range shooting with the 38-55! Them boys are shooting 1,000 yards at dingers off hand with Marlin Cowboy levers in 38-55. They throwin 245 grain boolits at bout 1500 to 1600 fps. Also using tang sights and NO scopes. Oh an those boolits are flat nose too, not long range target boolits.

Tom




325 grain bullets do not have the sectional density and BC for 1000 yar shooting in .45 cal. Sight radius of guide gun is too short for precise long range work with iron sights and a modeern scope will not give you the elevation required. I am not sure that the Guide gun has fast enough rifling twist to stabilize 500 grain bullets; my 1895 CB does not. Wind will push a lighter bullet all over the place at 1000, even when pushed to velocities above the black powder level, tha is 1000-1300 fps. You will not achieve targets such as posted by seppos with a guide gun.

[Dan Cash]

You all need to go to Marlin Owners and read the stickies on long range shooting with the 38-55! Them boys are shooting 1,000 yards at dingers off hand with Marlin Cowboy levers in 38-55. They throwin 245 grain boolits at bout 1500 to 1600 fps. Also using tang sights and NO scopes. Oh an those boolits are flat nose too, not long range target boolits.

Tom

Not worth a reply

[Artful]

Well being I can hit (some of the time) with .243 80 grain PSP which also doesn't have great BC or SD - I don't see why you can't use 325 grain 45 cal bullet - would at least try before dismissing it, if it groups well at closer ranges.