450 3 1/4 black powder express

[rook]

This is my first post on this forum but I have poked around some. I just started working with a little H&H field rifle and am looking for a mild smokeless load for a 405 grain PP. I will eventuality move to Black but will save that for summer. Ross Seyfried worked up some loads but I am unable to find the article. I think it was in ( RIFLE ) 1999 or 2000. It is a single shot so I don't have to worry about regulation but I would like to get it shooting to the sight. Any one out there that can point me in the right direction? I sure don't mind learning from others more experienced.Thanks in advance.
Sook

[nanuk]

I believe Mr. Seyfried was using one of the 4198's multiply your BP load by .40 to come up with the load for 4198 that equals it. but don't quote me on that

other options, are trailboss, and "The Load"

try a search for "Nitro for Black Powder"

[303Guy]

Here is the cartridge in question - this sample being a collectable original. It's not a 'small' cartridge and carries the name 'Express' for a reason!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/acfbddc.jpg

Being a H&R there would be no pressure limitations other than what the gun would withstand for a cartridge of that size, so, a mild PP load could still have a fairly high peak pressure to ensure confetti-ing of the patch. But a slow pressure rise powder is likely to work best and to get enough pressure to work well is likely going to produce a more than 'mild load'. The shape of that case looks ideal for the use of fillers to get lower muzzle velocity with slow powder using fillers and wads (like grits or wheat bran).

[rook]

Thanks for the info. The rifle isn't a H&R it's an old Holland & Holland. It's been used but is still tight so I don't want to subject it to any high peak pressure. I thought it would make a good eastern deer or black bear cartridge. If it ever gets warm I will fool with black just to see what it will do.The original round was loaded with 125 or 135 Gr. of black and a 390 gr. PP let or copper tube bullet. I will try 45gr of 4198 and a 405 PP when it stops snowing.

[nanuk]

also note, Seyfried recommended using kapok or polyester fiber fill.

if I remember correctly, enough to hold the powder against the primer was a clump about the size of a lemon.

again, I am only going by memory. all my older mags were turfed when I had to move rather suddenly.

[Nrut]

Hello rook,
I have the Seyfried article which you speak of and will look for it this weekend...
Also go to the Nitro Express forum and sign up..
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/ubbthreads.php?Cat=0
You have to be a member to access the reloading forum..

Then do a search in their reloading forum using:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
.450 3-1/4" Nitro-for-Black in single barrel-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was just there and had the link above but apparently the link only works for Nitro Express members..


It is very important how you use the Dacron filler in these rifles and very different than the way people use Dacron filler on this forum..
Here is a book that you may find helpful..
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=733496

I would love to see you post pictures of your rifle as those old English singles shots are my favorites albeit a little pricey for me..
later

[303Guy]

Oops - I saw but didn't 'see' H&H![smilie=1:

OK then, that changes things quite a bit. Firstly, you will have a paper patch specific chamber. Then you will definately not want to subject the rifle to high peak chamber pressure but more importanlty is the SUDDEN pressure rise. To give you some idea of what that means - a very rapid rise in pressure will subject the gun to about double the stress that a gradual pressure rise to the same peak would subject the gun to. This could be a problem with choice of lead alloy. I have limited experience with the use of fillers. I have found that wheat bran over slow powders seems to allow the use of reduced charges of slow powders without the risk of detonation and still achieve a slow pressure rise with these powders. However, one would have to compare case capacity, bore expansion ratio's and boolit sectional densities to be able to make use of my data. I mention wheat bran because it has the property of filling the excess volume in the case and compresses into a tight wad behind the boolit. It seals the bore well and protects the boolit base as well as cleaning the bore. I would suggest that it's use with a slow powder sort of simulates black powder use.

[rook]

I never thought I would get so much info for this project.I have been playing with these big bore Brits for some time with out much success. Now that I gave up working I plan to devote more time.The little rook rifles seem to shoot without much effort. Not so with the big boys.After the holidays I will try to post so pictures if there is any interest.In the mean time I'm still waiting on a break in the weather. Down to 6 last night.

[JMtoolman]

Rook, sent you a reply on the message board, look at the top of the header, the toolman.

[Nrut]

rook,
The ".450 Express" article by Seyfried can be found in the July 2000 #190 issue of RIFLE magazine.. Call Wolfe publishing for back issues..
If you use Seyfried's Nitro for Black formula you will be using 40 to 46 percent of the black-powder weight of 4198 and compressed Dacron polyester filler...

His favorite load for .450 3 1/4" singles is 48grs. of H4198 and a 360gr. patched bullet with the air space in the case filled with 12 up to 15 grains of Dacron..

In another article on the .500 Express using the same formula he states:
"I cannot warn to strongly against using any kind of cereal, plastic or foam filler!"
That article can be found in the Oct. 2002 #219 issue of HANDLOADER maginize..

Seyfried also did a article on Miniature Express rifles namely the .360 and two other cartridges using the 40/46% H4198 formula.. I haven't found that article yet but will post that issue when I do.. Those little express rifles are unbelievably neat!

[nanuk]

Nrut:

a .360 express would be a HOOT to shoot!

[Nrut]

Nrut:

a .360 express would be a HOOT to shoot!
Found it..
Article is "Miniature Black Powder Express Cartridges" by Seyfried
HANDLOADER Oct. 2003 #225
Three cartrigdes were covered..
.360X2-1/4"
9.3X57R
38-55

You should see the little Alex Henry takedown that Seyfried was using in the article.. I bet it didn't weigh more than 4 3/4 lbs.
At the end of the article he took a cow elk with the AH shooting a 155gr. bullet from a orig. AH mold over 50grs. of FFg.. The shot was a complete pass thru both shoulders..:shock:

[nanuk]

You should see the little Alex Henry takedown that Seyfried was using in the article.. I bet it didn't weigh more than 4 3/4 lbs.
At the end of the article he took a cow elk with the AH shooting a 155gr. bullet from a orig. AH mold over 50grs. of FFg.. The shot was a complete pass thru both shoulders..:shock:




now that is unexpected performance!

now the guys who are shooting 357max are going to try elk with theirs!

:veryconfu

[303Guy]

If you use Seyfried's Nitro for Black formula you will be using 40 to 46 percent of the black-powder weight of 4198 and compressed Dacron polyester filler...

His favorite load for .450 3 1/4" singles is 48grs. of H4198 and a 360gr. patched bullet with the air space in the case filled with 12 up to 15 grains of Dacron..

In another article on the .500 Express using the same formula he states:
"I cannot warn to strongly against using any kind of cereal, plastic or foam filler!"I find that very interesting. Interesting because compressed Dacron sort of kinda resembles uncompressed wheat bran and I hasten to add - do not use wheat bran! (We are talking a valuable BP rifle here). Just saying that my findings with wheat bran and slow powder at reduced loadings with a heavy for caliber PPCBoo seem to be on a similar track. (I betcha the wheat bran will leave a cleaner bore!:mrgreen: Wheat bran is not a cereal by the way). The downside of wheat bran is it's a pain to get into the case in the first place (303 Brit case, anyway).

Here is a 360 Express. What's not to like?

http://www.gregmartinauctions.com/images/inventory/30/56742_01.jpg It's a Purdey!

[303Guy]

Traditional express cartridges tend to be long cases, working at low pressures. This is partially due to their black powder roots, but the low pressure cases are also more reliable under extreme conditions, such as found in African hunting.Found this in Wikipedia.

Hey - this gets even more fun!


In the 19th century, rifled firearms increasingly gained popularity, and the cylindrical (conical) bullet was introduced. This allowed a wide range of bullet weights to be used with a single bore size; the .450 Black Powder Express, for example, was loaded with bullets ranging from a 270 grain hollow point bullet for small game such as deer, to a 360 grain solid bullet for use on dangerous game, to even heavier hardened bullets for use on elephant. The early black powder express cartridges used paper patched lead bullets, to prevent lead buildup in the bore at the high velocities. These bullets were made of soft lead, and even in solid form they expanded readily and provided great killing power.[4][5]


... express has gradually changed to denote a large bore diameter combined with high velocity. The 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica, for example, lists express cartridges ranging from .360 to .577 caliberGets more interesting by the minute. Check out Wikipedia - stacked with info!

[nanuk]

Here is a 360 Express. What's not to like?

http://www.gregmartinauctions.com/images/inventory/30/56742_01.jpg It's a Purdey!



that looks like the baby brother to my Cogswell and Harrison 500BPE!

I would love to have a dandy like that.