32 RF rolling blocks

[Walter Laich]

I have seen a number of these on gunbroker. Some interest me, but....

where do you get/reload ammo for these? Rim fire tells me that reloading is not an option or something I don't know about (know how to reload center fire)

info would be appreciated

thanks
walt

[John Taylor]

Put a liner in and make it a 22.

[NoZombies]

They can be converted to 32 colt CF (long or short) but the guns are often loose or have poor bores, or both. The 32 colt uses a heeled bullet anyways, and it requires some ingenuity to load, unless you want to spend a huge amount on special dies and a heeled bullet mold.

There is a way to reload for the RF using a special brass that uses a .22 acorn blank for priming, but the whole process is expensive and fiddly at best. It also still requires the use of a heeled bullet.

I tend to agree with John Taylor, they're great as a 22 RF action. If I had another one, that's what I would do with it. And I love the .32 calibers.

[Bent Ramrod]

The Old Western Scrounger sells Brazilian-made .32 RF Short and Long at $50 a box of 50, which makes the plinker with a .32RF the modern equivalent of the tycoon lighting cigars with $20 bills. Some have complained about the accuracy and reliability of this ammo, but I have not seen anything too bad about the stuff except for the price. A couple friends had a S&W #2 (I think it was) and a Marlin .32 rim-or-centerfire .32 leveraction which shot very well with this Brazilian ammo. My own Stevens Tip-Up, with none too good a bore, is not too bad; I wish I could shoot it more often.

Most of the .32 RF bores are in pretty hideous shape, and probably are best as candidates for reline to .22. Sometimes the .32 RF firing pin is a little too far out for the .22 rim, and has to be relocated.

[NoZombies]

I believe OWS has been out of that ammo for some time. Now they're selling what 32 rimfire ammo they have, for closer to $2-$3 per shot.

I had a bunch of the cannuck ammo, but shot the last of what I had less than a week ago.

Many of the 32 rimfires have terrible bores, because a lot of the 32rf ammo being made well into the 20's and 30's was loaded with black-powder, and of course the corrosive priming. And a great number of these guns where just boy's rifles, inexpensive, and mistreated.

[MtGun44]

The overwhelming majority of .32 RF RBs that I have looked at have bores that would give
a sewer pipe a bad name. I eventually lucked into a mint bore .22 RF which is a wonderful
and very accurate gun. If you could find a good bore, a good gunsmith could weld and
redrill the block (maybe) and then rechamber for some .32 CF low pressure round.

Good luck, my .22 is a favorite rifle.

Bill

[John Taylor]

Seems like I come up with a different number every time I do the numbers. The 22 LR and magnum both have a SAAMI pressure of 24,000, and so do both of the 17 caliber rim fires. This give a breach thrust of about 950 pounds. I don't have a pressure for the 32 rim fire but the 32 S&W is listed at 15,000 for a bolt thrust of about 1,350. Going to the H&R mag runs it up to 1,880. While the #4 Remington is strong enough for the 22 and 17 rim fires there are some that question if it is strong enough for the modern 32 center fire. I have made a few of the solid frames in 32 S&W and they are a fun little rifle but liability may be an issue now that I make a living at working on guns. I did see a #4 chambered for the 32-20 ( bolt thrust about 1,540) and thought that was going way to far.
The original 32 rim fire short had 9 grains of black powder and the long had 12-13. The Colt 32 was supposed to be loaded to the same pressures but I can't verify that.
I probably confused every one with all the numbers but I would rather be on the safe side than see someone get hurt. If you like to shoot 32 out of a #4 Remington the best bet would be to chamber it for a 32 S&W short. I did a #4 using a 308 barrel with a 1 in 10 twist in 32 many years back and found it was a lot of fun shooting the shorts. I could group all shots in an inch at 25 yards. Muzzle report was not much more than an air rifle.
Moving the firing pin requires someone with a vertical mill that knows how to use it as the hole is at an angle. Old hole must be plugged first, I usually open it up a bit and tap for a threaded rod and Loctite it.

[NoZombies]

John, I don't know for sure, but I understand the .32 RF long was out of general usage by the time that SAAMi came about. I've heard that the .32 RF was pressure tested with factory ammo at about 14.5K but I can't find the article anymore to show you. I think that's what C-I-L and navy arms where loading them to. I'm probably wrong though.

The 32 S&W short has a saami of 11.5K.

How are you doing the bolt thrust calculations BTW? I think my simple formula is missing something, because the numbers I get are way off from the ones you're getting. I assume I'm missing some multiplier.

[fatelk]

I'm curious about this topic too. I have an old Stevens Favorite in .25 long that my father-in-law gave me. It's been in the family for nearly a century. The bore is bad, and ammo hasn't been made since '42. I had three rounds in my collection, one went off.

I looked into relining to .22, but the cost was more than I wanted to pay. I have a couple extra 10/22 barrels, and it looks like it wouldn't be too hard to turn one to fit, just haven't found someone to do it for me yet.

I'm pretty sure that the firing pin will "reach" to fire a .22 rim instead of a .25 rim, but what would you have to do to convert from .32 to .22, as far as the firing pin?

[excess650]

I'm told a 25RF can be converted to 22RF with a liner and extractor work. The 32RF is useless unless the block is converted to something else. 22RF liners are inexpensive, and conversion should be less $ than trying to turn, thread, chamber, make extractor cuts and lock screw another barrel.:groner:

I had a Stevens 44 32RF converted to CF, and then rebored/rechambered to 38Spl. Converting the 32RF block requires relocating the firing pin, so generally a plug and rebore.




I'm curious about this topic too. I have an old Stevens Favorite in .25 long that my father-in-law gave me. It's been in the family for nearly a century. The bore is bad, and ammo hasn't been made since '42. I had three rounds in my collection, one went off.

I looked into relining to .22, but the cost was more than I wanted to pay. I have a couple extra 10/22 barrels, and it looks like it wouldn't be too hard to turn one to fit, just haven't found someone to do it for me yet.

I'm pretty sure that the firing pin will "reach" to fire a .22 rim instead of a .25 rim, but what would you have to do to convert from .32 to .22, as far as the firing pin?

[old turtle]

I think the old Single Shot Rifles and Actions by Frank de Haas has information on converting to .22 or center fire. You might check.

[Walter Laich]

thanks to all who answered--sounds like these are good guns to stay away from unless you have a bucket of $$ to throw at them.

I'll find 'my' rolling block someday--the fun is in the looking

walt

[fatelk]

I'm told a 25RF can be converted to 22RF with a liner and extractor work. The 32RF is useless unless the block is converted to something else. 22RF liners are inexpensive, and conversion should be less $ than trying to turn, thread, chamber, make extractor cuts and lock screw another barrel.
I was quoted $150 for relining to .22LR. I'm just too cheap.

The barrel is not threaded, held on by a take-down screw. I have the 10/22 barrel, and if I had access to a lathe I'm pretty sure I could do it myself without too much trouble. It's a project I'll get to some day.

[Bret4207]

If you can find one with a good bore the 32 S+W or Long is a fine cartridge, assuming the rifle is strong enough to handle it.

[John Taylor]

NoZombies, I figure the thrust just like hydraulics, area time pressure. To figure area use Pi times radius squared. I don't rely on the brass gripping the chamber wall as some do, seen to many head separations. The cartridge is just like a piston in a cylinder, take the diameter of the chamber just in front of the rim and figure the area from that.
I know there will be some quoting the test done on the old 30-30 where the chamber was bored deep and the case held 32,000 psi without stretching, and this may work many times before the head comes off, or there is some lube in the chamber.
I recently had a Stevens 44 that had been a 25-20 SS come into the shop. Some one had chambered it for the 25-35 and the breach block broke. That over five times the bolt thrust it was originally chambered in. It's a wonder someone was not killed.
On liners, there are some out there that are inexpensive. If you are into saving money try Doyles gun shop, 208-686-1006 . I think he is still under $80 for 22s, also he has great prices on bluing. My prices are quite a bit higher but then I'm using a hammer forged liner instead of a button rifled liner and I have a much closer fit on the liner.

[richhodg66]

I just ran across one of these in a local shop that someone had done a decent sleeving job to .22 LR. It had been reblued and all, but otherwise seemed in good shape. Their asking price was $269 if I recall. What is something like this generally worth? I like rolling blocks and thought this would be a fun plinker, just not sure I can justify that for a toy right now.

[NoZombies]

John Taylor:
Thanks, it was the time element that my simple calc was leaving out.

As for the $269 RB, that's a pretty good price if it's in good shootable shape. The refinish removes some collector interest, but the lining would have already done that anyways.

[richhodg66]

There is actually a nice Marlin 39A in that shop I am thinking of doing some horse trading for (I've wanted one ever since I can remember and the drive, money and opportunity never came together at the same time). Maybe I could work some deal with the little RB thrown into the mix.

[John Taylor]

Seems like most #4 Remington rolling blocks are going from $300 to $800 depending on how bad someone wants one. The #2 is a bit higher and better suited for making into larger calibers. Something to watch for, Crescent arms made a #4 size roller almost identical to the Remington. The difference is the take down and the three way trigger/breachblock/extractor spring. One works the block on the left, the other on the right. Both don't have a lower tang. I have a #4 size action in the shop with a lower tang, can't figure out who made it. My father picked up a very clean #4 back in the late 50s for $8, The last one I bought was $200.

[old turtle]

Oh my! Where am I when all these rolling blocks are going so cheap. I would love to have one of the small ones for $300. I have always been a day late and a dollar short. To those of you so blessed, enjoy.

[John Taylor]

Oh my! Where am I when all these rolling blocks are going so cheap. I would love to have one of the small ones for $300. I have always been a day late and a dollar short. To those of you so blessed, enjoy.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=206261249

[Chev. William]

Dear Mr. Taylor,
May I 'pick your brains' on a project of mine?
I purchased two 1894 series Stevens Favorite actions, apare parts and other items as 'Parts' Actions.
In the group were four Breech Blocks so I got the idea to convert two to CF versions and keep the other two as RF versions. Also in the 'pile' were a .32 Long RF chambered barrel and a .25 Stevens RF chambered barrel, both have the approximately .200" wide extractor cut at the breech face.
All the Breech Blocks seem to have the firing pin tip at the same relative location so may all be for the .32 RF Type.

Now as to my ideas for the 'rebuild':
First I intend to replace all the old, soft steel, pins and screws with modern higher strength alloy Steel tempered Screws and pins.
Second I intend to plug and re-bore the Firing pin hole in two Breech Blocks to bring the tip up to the center line of the chambers.
Third, using a Lee carbide .25ACP sizing die, and a Primer Pocket Swageing Tool with an added 3/16 Fender washer as a spacer, I re-sized some .22 Hornet cases to the diameter of .25 Stevens and then trimmed them to length.
For .32 Long colt, I bought some cases that had been re-sized from .32 S&W Long to .32 Long colt diameters.
I noted in my research that the .25ACP and the .25 Stevens Short share dimensions and, at factory loadings to SAMMI pressure limit of 17,400psi MAY be usable in the rebuilt and strengthened Stevens action.
Fourth, after doing some measuring and calculations I believe the .32 Long RF barrel is strong enough to handle 17,400psi loads with moderate safety factor, and 24,000psi loads with marginal safety factor, any higher chamber pressures would not be advisable.
The similar calculations for the .25 chambered barrel appear to indicate that 17,400psi and 24,000psi/25,000psi would have good to medium safety margins, with 33,000psi being usable with care.
Breech Face thrust calculations appear to indicate that breech blocks set up for the .32 Long would handle the .25 caliber forces at the investigated pressures. I used Rim outer diameter for the area and force calculations, rather than the body diameter of the case.
The pivot screws bending and shear calculations are what recommended changing to 'Grade 8' rated screw alloys and the hardened and tempered high strength alloy steel pins.

Do you see any problems with my thinking?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[john hayslip]

I have an article from Single Shot review on making a shell that has an off center hole for a 22 blank, put in powder and ball. Align blank under the firing pin. I believe Dixie already has some made up.

[BCRider]

I believe that you'll find that the screws do not have any size for size commercially available equivalents. A few years back when I re-furbished the screws on an old Stevens Crackshot I could not find anything that would work directly. Because I've got a hobby machine shop available I made my own replacements from O-1 drill rod and hardened then tempered them after making the screws and testing them for fit.

Given all the work you describe that'll be done I'm guessing that you've got similar machines available. If so then making replacement screws is not that big a deal if you can handle the rest of the work.

[pietro]

I have seen a number of these on gunbroker. Some interest me, but....

where do you get/reload ammo for these? Rim fire tells me that reloading is not an option or something I don't know about (know how to reload center fire)

info would be appreciated

thanks
walt




For my .32RF Remington #4 RB, I went with the EASY button, Walt.

I drilled a 1/16" hole in the center of the breechblock face for a CF firing pin - which I added to the original FP body after I ground off the RF firing pin tip.

A little "adjustment" (filing) for the correct FP protrusion, and the rifle was good to go with commercially-available .32 Short Colt CF ammo (Winchester).


.

[Chev. William]

I believe that you'll find that the screws do not have any size for size commercially available equivalents. A few years back when I re-furbished the screws on an old Stevens Crackshot I could not find anything that would work directly. Because I've got a hobby machine shop available I made my own replacements from O-1 drill rod and hardened then tempered them after making the screws and testing them for fit.

Given all the work you describe that'll be done I'm guessing that you've got similar machines available. If so then making replacement screws is not that big a deal if you can handle the rest of the work.

Yes, they are somewhat unique in size and thread, the Breech block Screw seems to be about .190" diameter and the thread seems to be 27TPI. This may be a prestandardization size and thread, I have not been able to locate my early "Machinist's Handbooks" since my late wife 'cleaned up' before she went into the Hospital. I had one from about 1912 that may list the thread and screw dimensions of the era prior to WW1. I do remember that there were many more screw size and thread combinations listed when I thumbed through it that are NOT listed in current tables.

[Chev. William]

I loaded 10 ea .32 Long Colt today for use in testing my refurbished and converted 1894 Stevens Favorite. the loading I used calculates out to about 10,240psi Pmax and about 1065fps Muzzle Velocity using 2.2Gr of BULLSEYE, with CCI #450SRM primers behind a 85gr Lead RN Heeled bullet. Case length between .912" and .914" with COAL of about 1.328" to 1.330".
These are intended for action testing by my Gunsmith and are well below the SAMMI/CIP limites for Pmax.

[Kermit1945]

So help me out here. Why spend bunches on dies, heeled boolit molds, and so forth, when you could use one case and a variety of .32 pills and just go to breech seating? Sounds like fun to me.

I think I read on some forum of a fellow who carried round balls or buckshot and a pocket full of loaded cases with wads retaining the powder. Drop in a ball, push in a case, close action......

These are minute-of-beercan guns, pretty much, no?

[Chev. William]

It depends upon the manufacturer and present condition of the bore, among other things.
Back in the 1890s people shot targets mostly OFF HAND at 200 yards with "Iron Sights"for scores, firing ten shots one at a time, giving the "pit crew" time to indicate where the last shot landed and to patch the target for the next shot.

The technique of loading a bullet then inserting a charged cartridge to shoot was also used back then for Long Range Competitions. So it is not new or unique. But it is rare in modern day practice.

The smaller bores, such as the .22, the .25, and the .32 were also used around the homes for "Pot Meat", critter and varmint control, and for vermin elimination in barns and out buildings. As such they were designed to be quite accurate, as even then 'wasting bullets' was Highly Frowned Upon, with 'one shot one kill' being the standard accuracy demanded of the young shooters of the time. This held even through the 'Great Depression' when many families were dependent on the "Pot Meat" youth shooter to bring home something to cook up for the evening meal yet not expend more ammunition than was absolutely necessary due to the cost to get more in those very lean and frugal times.
J. Stevens Arms and Tool Co. manufactured many 'low cost' but very accurate firearms of various designs throughout the 1880s and 1890s and on into the 1910s. They were considered to have some of the best rifled commercial production barrels of the time. The avid target shooters of the time, just like now, used custom made to order firearms and barrels in competitions and some of the reported scores and tie breaking determinations for 200, up to 1000, yards are still amazing when you remember most of the shooting of the 1880s and 1890s was done with Black Powder and Lead Bullets all the way out to 1000 yards and sometimes beyond. I remember some reports of shooting Black Powder Military Rounds to determine extreme effective range that went out over 1500 yards, and had reported bullets hits on target with impact angles of around 75 degrees from horizontal recorded.

Present day shooters usually do not think of 1000fps to 1400fps as 'useful long range' target shooting bullet velocity and do not normally think of the 'high arched trajectory' as possible to get accurate and repeatable hits on target. The modern shooter prefers to use 2500fps to 3600fps and a 'flat trajectory' instead. Much easier to get high scores on targets that way, with the lower effects of wind, etc. and perhaps the near instant gratification of being able to 'crow' about his 'good shooting'. and how many people do you see attempting shots, even at 200 yards now days without Optical Sighting Aids?

'Minute of Beer Can' fun shooting where still allowed is just that. yes it gets the youth involved if they can see the instant results of their endeavors, but it still takes practice, practice, and more practice to hit a squirrel in the head at 50 to 100 yards with a iron sighted small bore rifle and 'low powered' cartridges such as the .22 long in subsonic velocity.

Those firearms that were made over a hundred years ago, fired with Black Powder and Corrosive Primers, and not 'religiously' cleaned every time after shooting show the effects in pitted bores. But those who still show rifling in their bores after thorough cleaning may still shoot well enough to get the "Pot Meat" again if cartridges are found or made that will allow accurate shooting.

That it I believe justifies the expenditure of my time and some money in this endeavor to resurrect some "obsolete" cartridges and firearms and get them to "Speak" again instead to being relegated to "wall hangars" or "Closet Queens" only to be occasionally seen but not heard.

Besides, aren't "Beer Cans" recyclable for redemption cash?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Kermit1945]

I admire you for going after it, CW. No problem there. I listen to the ASSRA folks, and breech seating if far from rare over in their woods.

Seems to me that both beercans and skwerrels have value, with or without boolit holes. In the case of the skwerrel, the location of the hole has some bearing on the residual value, however.

[Chev. William]

Kermit1945,
I had not previously read of the "ASSRA" and will need to look them up.

As to the bullet holed 'targets' I agree wiht what you say, but I believe it goes even further with 'Squirrels' or similar items.

Hitting a 'Squirrel' of any type with a sub sonic bullet of less than 90gr should not damage as much meat as hitting the same size animal with a 3000fps Varmint 'grenade' bullet, which reportedly converts them to a 'meat, blood, and hair fog' which is not usable for "Pot Meat" and is even less easy to clean up than 'Road Kill' but that is just my opinion formed from reading others writings.

I do not live in an area that allows discharge of firearms off a proper Range, let alone any 'hunting' within City or County limits anymore; even for Varmint control. We are allowed only to trap,using a Department of Animal Control approved and permitted live trap, Ferrel animals or Varmints, then turn over the trapped animals to Animal Control, usually getting a lecture about using the 'wrong size' trap for the Animal.

It sometimes is very frustrating, as I have gone through the process over 40 times, using the trap they provide, and getting the lecture about the 'wrong size trap'. Sometimes I wish we were allowed to just shoot them and drop the carcass in a trash can for pick up.
Oh Well, I guess that is just the price for living in an Urban Coastal Community.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Kermit1945]

They be here:

http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl

[Chev. William]

Thank you for the link, I started the registration process.

[bob208]

at one time navy arms made a small rolling block action. they were sold in .22 hornet and .357 mag. they also made a r-b pistol action.

[NoZombies]

I still have a little Rem #4 I need to convert to CF. I don't know when that's gonna happen though. Maybe when I retire.

In the mean time I've got a .32 S&W long bolt action, and a falling block in .32 long colt. The bolt is something else for pot meat!

The falling block still needs to be shot. As it happens, I have some factory ammo for it, but I keep forgetting about that when I pack for the range. I have 100 pieces of factory .32 LC brass, a few hollow base and at least one heel based bullet mold, but for lack of time, I haven't done anything with all of that. The bore is near perfect, and I have 2 complete spare guns that I've thought about converting as well.

One of these days...

[CanoeRoller]

I guess I lucked out years ago. I stopped by an old gunsmith's shop to have my military rolling block converted to a 45-70, and he reached up into the rafters and pulled a number 2 down to show me a gun he bought years before as a project piece. I told him if he ever wanted to sell it, I was willing, and would pay him to reline the barrel, and make other repairs it needed. He eventually took me up on the offer. The 45-70 is long gone, but that little 22 is still mine, and I have a blast everytime I use it. If you could get a deal on a beat up rimfire roller, there are far worse ways to spend your money than to get it shooting again.

I used that roller as my warm up rifle before BPCR matches, and it would always walk off in the hands of other shooters, who just had to take a few shots with it. One of the match directors who played with it summed it up best. "This little gun is fun!"

[Chev. William]

This morning, while I was outside with the dogs, I checked what the Black Powder (BP) capacity of my .32 Long Colt cases is.
It turns out that level full to the rim they hold about 11.7 grains of loose fffg GOEX; and if space is left to seat on of the heeled bullets without compression, they hold about 10.7 grains of loose fffg BP.

I would surmise that around 11.0 grains would fit with some compression, and perhaps slightly more with heavy compression.

Reportedly, the .32 Long RF originally had 18 grains of BP and the .32 Long Colt CF had 12 grains of BP. I guess the RF round gets its extra capacity from not having a separate primer and the CF round may have been a "Balloon Case" design.

Something to think about for the future.

[mikeym1a]

This morning, while I was outside with the dogs, I checked what the Black Powder (BP) capacity of my .32 Long Colt cases is.
It turns out that level full to the rim they hold about 11.7 grains of loose fffg GOEX; and if space is left to seat on of the heeled bullets without compression, they hold about 10.7 grains of loose fffg BP.

I would surmise that around 11.0 grains would fit with some compression, and perhaps slightly more with heavy compression.

Reportedly, the .32 Long RF originally had 18 grains of BP and the .32 Long Colt CF had 12 grains of BP. I guess the RF round gets its extra capacity from not having a separate primer and the CF round may have been a "Balloon Case" design.

Something to think about for the future.

I was reading on another thread something similar. Instead of 'compressing' the load, use a very long 'drop tube' to charge the case with BP. The long drop settles the grains in compactly, without crushing the powder, and apparently allows a bit more powder to be loaded in the case. Something to think about.

[Chev. William]

Good Hint about the 'long drop tube'. At the moment, I don't have a suitable size or length of straight tubing around to try it.
Also, If you notice, I do my hand loading outside, on a covered patio, so I don't get 'gun powder on the rugs' The only work I can get away with inside is De-capping fired cases and running cleaned cases through sizing dies.
Priming, powder measuring, charging and seating bullets are all 'outside' activities in my home.

As to the 'Experiments': I found that a Magtech made .25ACP primed case holds 5.0 grains of fffg Black Powder, loose and poured in directly from the scale pan, to level with the mouth rim and about 4.0 grains if room is left for seating a bullet. Possibly with compression the case may hold a little more.

I then loaded some up with 4.0 grains fffg BP, and topped them with some sample "Ranch Dog 50gr Cast Lead RFN bullets" I received for trial. The loaded overall case length is 0.850" on these and i plan to try them in the upgraded Stevens Favorite in a .25 Stevens barrel as a lighter load than the experimental .250ALS CF .25 Stevens substitute.
The Good Part of the Upgrade is that by switching out the extractor (which must be made to fit the caliber being used) and the barrel, I can use the same action for
Both .25 Experiments and .32 Long Colt shooting. As my extractors are pivoted on the Lever screw it appears that dropping out two screws, then pulling the Breech Block-Link-lever assembly out of the receiver, would allow changing the extractor (obviously the barrel is not in the take-down action during this process).

Best Regards,
Chev. William