project gun need help

[Bullshop]

I have a rifle I would like to rebarrel to something that would be the ultimate turkey shoot cast boolit gun. It has been in the corner for a long time and I just cant seem to decide what to do with it. From time to time I pick it up look it over and think on what I should make it. Starts out with a couple good ideas then my mind spins wildey out of control and I put it back in the corner for another six months. Been doin that for way too long now so its obvious I need help. The rifle is an old Savage 112V single shot. I contacted Savage to just have them put a heavy 308 barrel on it but they say it is too old and they dont want the job. This gun is odd in that it does not have the lock nut typical to all Savage bolt rifles. I dont know if it came that way or if it was converted when it was rebarreled to what it is now. Now it has a heavy 1.445" at the muzzle and 25" long chambered for the 22 BR short. The problem with this chambering is its too labor intensive to make brass, and I wouldnt exactly call it the ultimate cast chambering. So lets make this a group project gun and all put our haeds together and see what about 20 centuries combined experiance can do. As always funding is a limiting factor so we should be looking for a brilliant but affordable(cheep) solution to this problem. Not just looking for chambering ideas here but ideas on all the areas that will make this a shooter, like barrel and chambering by someone that understands cast(Bass),bedding, twist for caliber ect. I think it would be very interesting when this is finished to pass it around so that each of us that took an interest in this project can have a turn with it. Again with that much combined experiance at work I think that by the time it came home it would have had its best figured out. So go ahead and jump right in with your .02 worth like it was your own cause after all it might be at least for a while. BTW I have a salvaged barrel that was from a high wall. It is fairly heavy and about 27" without the threads. It was a 32/40. I got two of these years ago the other was a 38 cal that I had put on a roller for JR. That is now the one he uses in long range buffalo match shooting and whipps me reguler. God bless him and them young sharp eyes of his. Anyway the 32 looks just as good as the 38 did so might be a place to start. OK let fire, this should be lots of fun and very educational for all. Im gettin excited already.
BIC/BS

[Scrounger]

Of course it is probably still possible to pick up a new or used Savage barrel and nut and put it on your action, you could do that yourself if you have a vise and action wrench to get the other barrel off. Friend of mine that posts on here sometimes, Rayo, has a lathe and does rebarreling. He tells me you don't have to use the barrel nut, if you just thread it up to the shoulder like you would a Mauser or other rifle. You remember a year or so ago there was some surplus Parker-Hale barrels available here fairly cheap. They were about 28 inches long and chambered .308 Win. Ray put one on a Mauser action and is very happy with its accuracy. You might try to find one of those barrels on EBAY and have some one put it on for you.

[Bullshop]

Of course it is probably still possible to pick up a new or used Savage barrel and nut and put it on your action, you could do that yourself if you have a vise and action wrench to get the other barrel off. Friend of mine that posts on here sometimes, Rayo, has a lathe and does rebarreling. He tells me you don't have to use the barrel nut, if you just thread it up to the shoulder like you would a Mauser or other rifle. You remember a year or so ago there was some surplus Parker-Hale barrels available here fairly cheap. They were about 28 inches long and chambered .308 Win. Ray put one on a Mauser action and is very happy with its accuracy. You might try to find one of those barrels on EBAY and have some one put it on for you.
I had thought about finding a savage barrel but wounder if at some point they have changed the thread patern or something. They (Savage) said the serial # was too early and thier new barrels wouldnt work. It was a gal that answered on the phone and I dont know if she knows anything or is misunderstanding THE BOOK. Anyway I dont want to get a barrel I cant use. I guess it is also possible someone rethreaded the action to a larger ID. Wont know until I pull the barrel. On the 32 barrel I am thinking something short on capacity with a long neck like a 32 Johnson. No shortage of standerd chamberings,32/40 32 Special, 8/57mm but I would like something that holds enough powder to throw a 200 gn boolit 100 yards with extreem accuracy.Thanks for trying but until someone can clear things up for me with factory barrels I will stay away from that. Also thinking since I have one already threaded to this action might could just have it bored to a larger cal.
BIC/BS

[45 2.1]

Hard to beat a 308 Win case or its shorter versions with a 12" twist.

[Bullshop]

Hard to beat a 308 Win case or its shorter versions with a 12" twist.
I remember reading a couple years ago I think in Precision Shooting that some cast shooters were using the BR case at 30 cal with (not shure on the #s here) 150gn boolits and a 1/15" twist shooting way better than I thought possible. Like sub .5 moa 10 shot 100 yds. Then a MR Sinclair set a record with this type set up that was in the teens,Thats like .1 something. Since the existing barrel has the BR chambering and is threaded a 30 cal rebore might work. I have shot a few BPCR matches with Norm Johnson from ND. Norm bought Dick Nickles equipment when Dick passed away. I had Dick rebore a rotted out Marlin 25/20 to 32/20 and he did a good job, he understood cast. Norm also understands cast. He competes with his work and I have seen some of his work and it looks and shoots good. So a rebore to 30 BR is an option but there is a but. That is these guys were shooting custom bore riders from Don Egan that were designed for the short neck of the BR case. I would like to have a longer neck to make use of a wider varity of existing designs. In my mind something like a 30/30 shortened in the body, but keeping the long neck.
BIC/BS

[Bass Ackward]

Dan,

I have never seen a Savage barreled that way from the factory. Doesn't say that it didn't happen, I just never saw it. All the one's we have re-barreled from 1960s on are 20 threads per inch. There are different size barrel nuts based on barrel diameter. I personally own two Savage actions. One from the 60s that was re-barreled to 35 Whelen. It was made up .... without the barrel nut. It was origionally a 270. Makes for a nicer custom look if you don't WANT or NEED flexibility.

The second action was manufactured since this new management took over and the action is the same as the others. The bolt is different in that they made the firing pin and assorted parts smaller so the old parts could not be interchanged easily. The new management did not want the legal responsibility from the older company. So they can not touch a single rifle without voiding this safety net. This second action is made up into a 458X2 with the Savage barrel nut. The 458X2 headspaces on the belt only. And this measurement changes with the brand of brass I am using. So I change the headspace.

The Savage system is fantastic by design for the shooter, but a legal nightmare because YOU can change it. It came from the M2 Browning 50 caliber machinegun when Savage made them for the government in WWI. You can readily and cheaply buy all the parts you need from Midway or Brownells to change that bolt to accept any cartridge head diameter you choose in 5 minutes. That means you have total flexibility. You never have a need to blueprint a Savage action because the bolt head is floating and .... bends into alignment with the lugs and threads and thus chamber. You can buy a barrel wrench from Midway and they stock cheap barrels chambered in many calibers (@ $150) that are plug and play if you use the barrel nut system. If you have guages, you can have a new rifle in 30 minutes or go back to another you shot last week.

Here are the draw backs. "Usually" the older triggers need to be replaced. They are available, but you have to buy one. I have Timneys. The next is that while the action is very strong against pressure, it needs to be sleeved to produce top flight accuracy with a floated barrel that is .... AS .... heavy as the one you describe. And you will "want" a thicker than factory recoil lug if you go up in caliber. Also available in multiple sizes. If you decide to down size your barrel diameter, then you have a stock that is now worthless unless you derive comfort in a truely floating look.

My 35 Whelen is a No 4 sporter weight barrel on a 6.5 # rifle. It shoots 1/2". My 458X2 is a shorter, straight pipe (bigger hole) on a 8 # rifle. And it will shoot 1/2". Both better on some days. Neither are sleeved. And once the comprimises start from a bench rest outfit, the whole project changes perspective. So you need to consider that before going down this path. It makes no sense to want a top outfit and get an ebay barrel. If you decide to make a single comprimise, you might as well as not make the bench rest journey and use the rifle for what is it's best resuurse which is flexibility. You can still expect accuracy as above.

You either have to go with a cast bullet friendly bore diameter (30,35) because of twist rates or go to a cut rifling manufacturer to make you what you want. IF you don't need a custom cut barrel, this becomes a lot less intense. Still too many what ifs at this point until you start making decisions about purpose and caliber and how you want to go.

If you get the idea that this rifle's forte is not record setting accuracy but that it can be one rifle that is many rifles to you, all you need is a barrel nut then a new barrel and go guage and 30 minutes time. IF you use quick detach rings on steel Weaver bases, try 10 minutes. Then you are going in the direction I would go with it. Big negative with this strategy is your wife will catch on real quick and then you will need less guns. But top flight barrels are cheaper than complete outfits of lesser quality. As a single shot, I have all the parts I need to take my 458 in minutes to become a 223 Rem, or a 308 Win, or a 257 Whetherby, or a .375/338, (in my future) or an 8X57, or a ........ what ever my heart desires. All for the cost of a chambered barrel.

[45 2.1]

I would like to have a longer neck to make use of a wider varity of existing designs. In my mind something like a 30/30 shortened in the body, but keeping the long neck.
BIC/BS

If you rebore, there is nothing wrong with that idea, just remember you were complaining about brass prices. Use a standard case that you can set the shoulder back, fireform and have a long neck while getting a slower twist barrel also. Norm does alot of very good writing to, doesn't he.

[Scrounger]

I remember reading a couple years ago I think in Precision Shooting that some cast shooters were using the BR case at 30 cal with (not shure on the #s here) 150gn boolits and a 1/15" twist shooting way better than I thought possible. Like sub .5 moa 10 shot 100 yds. Then a MR Sinclair set a record with this type set up that was in the teens,Thats like .1 something. Since the existing barrel has the BR chambering and is threaded a 30 cal rebore might work. I have shot a few BPCR matches with Norm Johnson from ND. Norm bought Dick Nickles equipment when Dick passed away. I had Dick rebore a rotted out Marlin 25/20 to 32/20 and he did a good job, he understood cast. Norm also understands cast. He competes with his work and I have seen some of his work and it looks and shoots good. So a rebore to 30 BR is an option but there is a but. That is these guys were shooting custom bore riders from Don Egan that were designed for the short neck of the BR case. I would like to have a longer neck to make use of a wider varity of existing designs. In my mind something like a 30/30 shortened in the body, but keeping the long neck.
BIC/BS

Check out the .30 (or .32 ?) Miller, thats a popular Cast Bench Rest Cartridge. Another one that I thought had lots of promise called the Long Neck .30 Herret. Basically run a .30-30 through .30 Herret Dies to set the shoulder back but leave the neck full length. Best of both worlds. If I had it rebored to .30, I think I'd go with a 14" twist as a compromise. My preference would be to use the better .308 case instead of the .30-30 for any wildcatting...

[Bullshop]

Scrounger
I like that long neck 30 Herret you mentioned, and I do have a set of Herret dies. Would you just go with a standerd 308 win or shorten to like the 308x1.5" ? On the twist the bench rest guys were using a 1/15" but were limiting boolit weight to 150gn. If I want to be able to use all my molds I will have to shorten it up a bit. Most of my 30 cal molds run from 180 to 220gn. I guess though if I want this to be a take on all commers turkey gun I may have to target a specific weight/length and forget all comprimise. My mind is spinning again,it seems to be loosing traction.

45 2.1
Havent read any of Norms wrighting where would I find it.

Bass
So are you saying that bolt face parts are available for the older larger bolts? Also about sleeving for a heavy barrel does it help to bed the barrel? I am not worried about looks here,ugly is as ugly does. Besides an ugly gun can be deceiving when bets are being placed. Even if I go with a smaller OD I could fill the channel with glass. Remember I said this is a single shot action so that should stiffen it up a bit wouldnt you think. Please say what needs said here and educate me cause I am out of my element. Dont be shy you wont hurt my feelings. When its your turn to play with this thing tell me what you would like it to be? Sorry got to leave for church right now, Mom is calling. Be back later I wont let up on this as I dont want it to go back to the corner again.
BIC/BS

[45 2.1]

45 2.1
Havent read any of Norms wrighting where would I find it.
BIC/BS

His articles are in "The Fouling Shot", a bi-monthly magazine you get when you join the Cast Bullet Association.

Go Here:
http://www.castbulletassoc.org/
scroll down on left side to index.

[Scrounger]

If you want a long neck on that .308 case, you're going to have to set the shoulder back some to get it. (Isn't this the .30 BR we've just wildcatted into?) Or take '06 cases and push their shoulder back to .308 location with a real long neck. I'm glad this is your Frankenstein and not mine...

[Bass Ackward]

Bass
So are you saying that bolt face parts are available for the older larger bolts? Also about sleeving for a heavy barrel does it help to bed the barrel?

Remember I said this is a single shot action so that should stiffen it up a bit wouldnt you think. Please say what needs said here and educate me cause I am out of my element.
BIC/BS

Dan,

Bolt face parts are available. You will have to buy a few more to work with the existing bolt, but it can be done ofr about $20. Or Midway has complete bolts for about $70. It does not matter because when you change the bolt head, you change the locking lugs and everything has to be re headspaced.

The action should be sleeved because the front of the action that is threaded and holds the barrel is exactly the same whether the action is a repeater or single shot. Try picking up a frying pan by the handle with two fingers at the end. The more weight you have, the stronger your fingers need to be.

You can bed out in the channel and this works, but the benchrest game is shot hot. Hot barrels elongate and ride up bedding changing point of impact. So most shoot free floated. They fire shots off to the side to warm up the barrel and then they shoot their 10 shots. I don't play the game because shooting hot erodes the throat. I can't afford to put that kind of money into an accurate rifle just to abuse it. Kinda like putting $100,000 into a car to hop it up and hit 90 miles an hour between stop lights.

You need to go to the Shilean WEB site and look at what twist rate stabilizes what weight bullets in each caliber. I .... think you might just need that information if you want 180 to 220 grains in 30 caliber.

[felix]

My choice would be a 32BR with 16 twist. Simply neck up 30BR cases. Just stay with that RCBS 170 grainer for starters. I bet that will be an amazing boolit just as it is. ... felix

[Bullshop]

My choice would be a 32BR with 16 twist. Simply neck up 30BR cases. Just stay with that RCBS 170 grainer for starters. I bet that will be an amazing boolit just as it is. ... felix
Felix
That 32BR sounds intersting and I think I have that RCBS 170 mould or a clone. I am not shure what the twist is in the 32 cal barrel I have but I will have to check. I am not shure but I think the BR case comes in 6mm and 7mm and mayby 22 does anyone know for shure? Even so I would think the 7mm would neck up but might cause thickness variations. Starting out with 308 cases, pushing the sholder back and fitting the neck to the chamber should work good. That way you could set up a tight neck relationship. I am thinking when this gets done whoever would like a turn with it could cover the shipping to get it to them and play for awhile and send it on to the next interested person along with any data developed. It would cost $25.00 or so to have a turn to play with it for a month or so but just think of it as an investment in the group learning experiance. Thats also why I am asking for everyones opinion.This way when it goes full circle it will have had everyones little tricks to tweek the best from it. It will be an interesting ongoing group project to follow. I think this would be unique to this board as I havent heard of it accept between a couple friends. The honor systam would be in effect. Tweeking and mods would be with permision from shair holders. I just like this idea more and more.
BIC/BS

[felix]

Tweaking should be expected, and desired. For example, the wood could be improved by some cabinet worker we all know of as Joe. Besides that, he knows how to shoot, right, Joe? Buckshot could improve the headspace, getting the lugs in equal shine. Cases should be made by anyone changing the metal work, for example. No, for a gun like this, 20-25 cases should be more than enough. Probably hand dies should be made so the gun could be loaded in the field without carrying a bunch of crap around. Just ideas, not imperatives. ... felix

[felix]

Cases indeed exist for 30BR. Made by Laupa! Probably the best cases off the production line anyway, so we are in luck. Necking up to 8mm with these should be a breeze. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Same case by the same company that makes the ammo and brass for the 6.5 Grendal.

Joe

[felix]

Yes, Joe, and what's great about this is that this case capacity is 33-35 grains of stick powder. How many grains of powder in the 32-40 case? ... felix

[StarMetal]

Yes, Felix, about what the 32-40 holds.

Joe

[Bullshop Junior]

32BR is sounding pretty close to what I had in mind, or a 32BR long neck. Wounder if somebody already made it. So if we use the salvaged 32 barrel I have who would thread and chamber once we have a reamer. Not gona ask for donations here. Anyone asked to do work on this will be paid thier normal fee. Say what about that round the Germans made in the second war the short 8mm. Bass you out there? Spose you might want to try to fit this barrel when the time comes? I like this its kinda like a cast boolit guild gun. It might take some time to complete and give everyone a chance to work with it but in the end my boys should have it and will be bringin them turkeys home to Papa. I like turkey, happy thanks giving
BIC/BS

[Willbird]

Heck I'll do the lathe work for you. Dave Kiff at pacific Precision is the guy to talk to on the reamer, he is fast, good, and wildcats don't cost extra. his standard reamer runs $135.00 but that comes with a live changeable pilot.

The first thing I would do when fitting a bbl to a savage is throw away the bbl nut, it is not needed or wanted by a man that knows how to run a reamer, if you do it right you can get headspace to the .001"

we do not need a headspace gauge, we can use a ctg. case for one...I prefer to fit them snug to the brass then surface grind .002 off a shellholder to bump the shoulder.

I also have a fine 308 bbl gathering dust here, it came with a 700 rem action I bought, it is 20" or so long, stainless steel, unknown maker but nicely button rifled, and about the same contour as a remington varmint special, it is 1-12 or 1-14 twist.....it is a real nice bbl and would have plenty of shank to fit to your rifle. $50.00 for the bbl and to fit and chamber it is all I would want. This bbl belonged to VirgiL King the Houston Warehouse researcher of benchrest fame...he had it setup for a hunter BR rifle. I ended up with the 700 action and it is now a 22-250AI.

and I know MROliver77 would go in with you on the purchase price of a 30 caliber reamer, he is wanting to do a custom cast boolit bbl for his New England single shot. You guys both have the same general idea of a ctg. in mind. and you both want a throat for cast bullets.

Bill

[felix]

Wouldn't a 32 be more fun? Your machine work, Bill, will be exquisite, and your approach is the only correct approach after we have the brass. Can we talk Oliver into a 32 instead? I think the "final" satisfaction of having the round would be much more appreciated. Much easier to find loads for, for example, especially with 16 twist. ... felix

[Willbird]

Well Oliver has an 8mm or two I think.................



Bill

[swheeler]

Bullshop; Seems like the old thread was 1.065"x20 tpi, when the new short mags came out Savage upped their shank dia to 1.115" for this fat little case.
Scooter

[Bullshop]

Bullshop; Seems like the old thread was 1.065"x20 tpi, when the new short mags came out Savage upped their shank dia to 1.115" for this fat little case.
Scooter

Swheeler
Midway had a sell out on some Savage barrels last month for $90.00. Got one in heavy SS 308 Win and it is looking perty good. So are you saying the new receivers will not accept the old barrels?
BIC/BS

[fourarmed]

If you want to punch an edible hole in a turkey, how about reboring to .44 Automag or .45 Winchester mag?

[anachronism]

Check out Mike Bellms website. He mainly does work on Contenders and Encores, but has a lot of common sense wildcats such as the .308 & .356 Bellm. these are necked down .444 Marlin cases, left at full length, but sized with .308 & .358 Winchester cases. This gives you a longer neck, which is a distinct advantage for cast bullets.

http://www.bellmtcs.com/

[HTRN]

What about .458 SOCOM?

.473 head size, .458 bore so a profusion of good molds, cartridge tops out at less than 1500 for a five hundred grainer so it would be almost ideal for shooting cast...

The downside? The brass isn't in 06 country for price(about $265 for five hundred) and dies would probably be at least $60...

Still, it would be wild with that Lyman postell mold....


HTRN

[swheeler]

Bullshop: I believe what Midway was selling off was the 1.065 dia. barrels that have been replaced, same reason Savage doesn't want to rebarrel, they are all set up for the new size shank. Measure the major dia of the one you got, if it is 1.065 then it will fit your M12(unless someone recut the threads in the reciever) the factory recoil lug and lock nut are not very expensive. Shaw rebarreled Savages without the locknut for years- rem 700 style- no other changes to reciever. LOL
Scooter

[lar45]

Here's an idea. How about 375 win? Rimmed case for positive head space. Straight case for as long of a neck as you want. factory dies and brass. If 375 isn't availible, then 30-30 is. You may need a custom reamer to get the throat and lead the correct dimensions.

Or a 357 Herrett?

[ronjulian]

BS Jr, I don't have much to add to the choice of barrels. There are a LOT of pros and cons. What ever you decide on, I can stuff the barrel in it for you. Now for the next round, do you go with just a bull barrel? Or put a break on it? A bull noes break, Or a big boxer Etc........

What ever you do, barrels are my thing. I don't like plan Jane any thing and there is just to much you can do to sexy up a barrel to just let it go.

While we are bantering about, I have an old M95 Styer 8x56R I got from my dead uncle. I was thinking about building a 458 [AGAIN!!!] for it. Any input?

I like the bolt and receiver on the Styer but all the other stuff NEEDS to go into the trash! Sooooo, A sexy stock with a bull barrel and bull nose break, a twin set trigger, [more] recoil compensator and built in rest comes to mind to start with. I am thinking .5" at 100 yards with ease.

[Magnum Mike]

....once we have a reamer....On Target Technologies can chamber that barrel WITHOUT the expense of a reamer. He has built some savage barrels already so he is familiar with their requirements. He can be reached via email or phone at http://www.ottllc.com/ .

I will also add that i am currently playing with the BR's and they are an excellent case. I am usign the "el cheapo" Rem brass and my 22br is amazingly accurate. I am shooting cast boolits outta my 7br, accuracy is much better than my eyes and the iron sights prove. Fun cartridge!

HTH,

[felix]

OK, Mike, now we are getting somewhere! A guy who really knows his EDM machine is worth his weight in gold in the gun trade. This really means you can select a case design, make a bunch of them from existing cases, neck turned, with boolit seated and mail the "loaded" rounds in for a barrel AND dies to be made. The CAT'S MEOW! ... felix

[Magnum Mike]

I have several encore and contender complete barrels and rechambered barrels made by OTT and the quality is second to no one! His chambering/rechambering method allows YOU to decide on clearances and throat lengths, etc... and no lousy reamer to limit you design!

I like your 32BR idea for this barrel, VERY unique and the BR case is an excellent platform to start from. Inasmuch as most dont care for the Rem BR brass, i have had good luck with it thus far. Personally, i would use a set of 7BR dies (read that as "COST EFFECTIVE", LOL, Hornady's are $33 at Midway http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=474048 ) as the basis for this project and have Mike (OTT) open them up for your 32. That would help keep costs down!

[Magnum Mike]

...Midway had a sell out on some Savage barrels last month for $90.00. Got one in heavy SS 308 Win...If it turns out that you cant use that barrel, let me know, it might be something that i am interested in....

[Bullshop]

I have several encore and contender complete barrels and rechambered barrels made by OTT and the quality is second to no one! His chambering/rechambering method allows YOU to decide on clearances and throat lengths, etc... and no lousy reamer to limit you design!

I like your 32BR idea for this barrel, VERY unique and the BR case is an excellent platform to start from. Inasmuch as most dont care for the Rem BR brass, i have had good luck with it thus far. Personally, i would use a set of 7BR dies (read that as "COST EFFECTIVE", LOL, Hornady's are $33 at Midway http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=474048 ) as the basis for this project and have Mike (OTT) open them up for your 32. That would help keep costs down!
That sounds very interesting and I already have a set of 7mm BR dies. The cheap 308 barrel is working out very well, guess the luck of the draw was with me. I realy like the switch barrel capability of the Savage and have to thank Bass Akwards for pointing it out to me. Would like to utilise the 32 cal barrel I have but will have to sit on it for awhile as this past week saw two irreguler perchases of a new clothes washer for BS Mom and a tracter for me. It was our 15th wedding aniversery.
BIC/BS