Lyman QC, & CS

[Echo]

I just had a very bad time with our friends @ Lyman. I bought a mold on eBay, a 4-banger for the 452374 boolit, and it cast too small. The minor diameter was .448, and beagling won't help that, as it was on the parting line. I called Lyman, and they said they would fix it. I received an offer today from Lyman offering to trade me a new mold for only $65, as they couldn't repair mine. I called.

The Customer Service person I talked to was Rosemary. She said they couldn't repair my mold, as it was over 30 years old, and they didn't have the tooling for that old of a mold. I pointed out that the mold was still in their catalog, and they must have cherries for that mold, as it is one of their most popular. Her response was that their new cherries might break if run in that old mold. I reluctantly agreed to take a trade, and asked if they would return my mold with the trade, since it was no good, and their tooling would break if they tried to re-cut it, and of course the answer was 'No'. I would get a new mold, or my old mold back, but not both. Well, then, could I just have the sprue plate and screw, and again the answer was 'No'. OK. She said that they used to sell 'Grab Bag' molds, molds that didn't quite make the cut, but that somebody might like. I couldn't believe it, and doubt SERIOUSLY if this was one of those. (Can you imagine allowing anything out of your door that didn't meet specs?)

So I'll take the new mold. 'Visa, Master, or Discover?' 'You don't accept American Express?'. 'No'. OK - I dig out my Visa (have my Amex # memorized), and give the number. She asks for the 'Good Thru' date, and I give it. Then she asks for the security code on the back, and I balk, saying they don't need that. She says yes I do. I say it will go through without that number, and she says 'I must have it'. Company policy, I guess.

I was not in a very good mood. I believe Lyman is balking at repairing my mold (that was cut incorrectly, by them), simply wanting to sell a new mold (at a very reasonable discount). I wanted my mold fixed, and I believe they could have, if they had wanted to, but it would be cheaper for them to sell me a like mold at their cost rather than repair the mold they mis-cut in the first place. I refused to give the security number, saying just send my mold back, and she agreed. I assume I will receive it in a few days. I am still pissed. (Could you tell?)

CC: President, Lyman

[mold maker]

Most places that haven't charged to your CC before ask for the security # on the back. I've never had a problem giving it.
I guess Lyman refused to replace your mold because of it's age. I'd bet the current production isn't a direct match to their 30 yr old products. The new may even be worse.
I also had a bad experience with their CS living up to their word.
There is now less Lyman on my bench, and lots more LEE, RCBS, Saeco, Redding etc.
I've never had anything but the finest treatment, if needed, from any of them. Customer Service is what brings return customers, every time.

[bhn22]

In my work, I handle a lot of credit card transactions. You need to give the security code, that's what it is there for. The intent is to make certain that the person calling in the card is in physical possession of the card. This helps protect you from people copying your card information in restaurants, etc, while the card is out of your posession, which you should never allow anyway.

I'm not surprised Lyman wouldn't give you a free mould to replace your old one in light of it's age. They did offer you a discount on a new mould, but it is BS that they want to keep your old one. Have the original mould returned, then lap it to the size you need, it shouldn't take much.

[nanuk]

they won't return the mould as they are giving you a new one at a discount.

tit for tat

but I did learn a lesson. if I ever send one in, I'll take off everything "For ease of Shipping' and only send the blocks

[MakeMineA10mm]

Bought a 30-yr-old mould off e-bay (used? -- Is anything that old not "used"?), and you expect Lyman to honor a warranty that you never were entitled to (since you weren't the original purchaser), and that is way out of date in any jurisdiction I can imagine (for the most part)? Excuse me for saying so, but I think you're mad at the wrong people here.

This is called caveat emptor. You bought something sight unseen off the internet, and it wasn't to spec. The person you should have an issue with is the ebay seller. (How did they list the item? Are they experienced with casting, moulds, and or reloading?) Explain it to them, and if they want to keep good feedback, they'll take it back and refund you the money. If they don't care about their feedback, leave crappy feedback and work on the mould best you can to make lemonade out of lemons... (if you don't want to do it yourself, Erik at hollowpointmoulds can open it up. Not sure he can adjust the nose, but it would probably be a lot cheaper than $65.)

I'm not sure that $65 is a great deal from Lyman either, though. Are their 4-cav moulds really that expensive these days?? Last I looked, they were around $75 retail for a 4-cav. Lyman mould. Maybe I'm out-of-date on this. With Lyman's QC these days, I balk at paying $75 for a new 4-cav. mould. And then, you have the situation with what you paid for the mould on e-bay. Really, that new Lyman mould is costing you $65 PLUS whatever you paid for the old one on e-bay. You'd have been better off getting a new Lyman mould to begin with, I think. Or better yet, order one from a custom mould maker that would actually turn out to spec, and I'm wondering if you'd have still spent less money???

Custom mould from accurate moulds: $119

You're Lyman deal: (Price of mould on e-bay) + cost of shipping to Lyman ($5 at least?) + $65 = [what you really paid here...]

Hence, why so many here use custom mould makers... It's a great value, compared to the frustration often run into the "cheaper" ways of doing things...

[Buckshot]

.............They probably didn't want the old (bad) mould back out in circulation, and have another disgruntled customer call in, again :-)

...............Buckshot

[Echo]

MM - this isn't my first dealing with Lyman - I have bought stuff from them before, on the same CC.

BHN22 - I didn't want a new mold - I wanted them to fix the old mold that they didn't originally make correctly.

MMa10 - they said the new price was $108 for a 4-banger. If it was beat up, or wallowed out, or otherwise mistreated. I would not have done it. It was incorrectly made - there is no other way the mold can throw small boolits. And NO, I don't think I would be better off buying a new one - their QC is not drawing any plaudits.

BS - I'm sure they didn't want their old mold back into circulation, so I can't get too out of shape over that.

To all - when I get it back I will do my first lapping job. It will be fun...

And thanks for the critiques/support (?).

I still think they could have re-cut the cavities...

[1Shirt]

I have never had bad response from Lyman, but I guess I am lucky. That said, I have never found their customer service to be overly friendly either.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[44magLeo]

I think that the cherries they use get made just a bit different each time a new one is made.
Your old die might have been too different from a current cherry To recut the cavity.

[Ben]

Buckshot :

Excellent point you just made. That makes sense.
Kinda like selling or trading a defective parachute.

Ben

[MtGun44]

I can't imagine expecting ANY manufacturer to warranty a product that has been
out in the field for 30 yrs. When I buy from eBay, I assume it is on me if the mold isn't
what I want. I did get a free repair on a broken Ruger that was old, but I expected to
pay for repairs and was very surprised when they said it was a warranty repair. I do not
think it is reasonable to expect a manufacturer to fix stuff forever, and am surprised
when a lot of firearms industry companies have very generous policies.

I think they did you a decent favor selling the new mold at a good discount, kinda like
Ruger did repairing my pistol for free.

Also, the security code is specifically there to prove that you have the card in your
possession, not just a trashed printed 'flimsy' from an old-style credit card machine which
gets the image from the front of the card only. I expect that it will be required on any
online purchase.

I hope the new mold is better.

Bill

[HangFireW8]

She said that they used to sell 'Grab Bag' molds, molds that didn't quite make the cut, but that somebody might like. I couldn't believe it, and doubt SERIOUSLY if this was one of those. (Can you imagine allowing anything out of your door that didn't meet specs?)

I can't imagine either, which is surely why they didn't want to return your old mold. It would only end up coming back again.

FleaBay is a crapshoot, and sometimes you lose out. Lyman is doing the best they can under the circumstances. They never advertised a lifetime warranty on their molds (to my knowledge), so any deal they offer you is above and beyond the call of duty.

-HF

[Echo]

Well, thanks again, guys. I hope the critics understand THE MOLD WAS MADE INCORRECTLY TO START WITH. Surely we know guys that would buy a mold, cast with it, lube the boolits. shoot them and cuss the fact that they leaded, without a clue as to why the leading. Which is one reason why it could have been around so long, and be so bad. It wasn't mistreated, just made wrong.

I got it back last week, and will start the lapping job soonest. This is my next-to-last post on this thread. The last one will reveal the results of my lapping effort.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, thanks again, guys. I hope the critics understand THE MOLD WAS MADE INCORRECTLY TO START WITH. Surely we know guys that would buy a mold, cast with it, lube the boolits. shoot them and cuss the fact that they leaded, without a clue as to why the leading. Which is one reason why it could have been around so long, and be so bad. It wasn't mistreated, just made wrong.

I got it back last week, and will start the lapping job soonest. This is my next-to-last post on this thread. The last one will reveal the results of my lapping effort.

Echo,
I've never not understood what you were saying.

As a business owner, I never want anything that's wrong to go out the door either, but it's a hard pill for me to swallow when I have to honor someone's idea of a warranty (which does not actually exist) on something that was not made when I even owned the business... Doing so would mean my prices would soon be out of the atmosphere. I don't have any control over what someone does with one of my products after it's been out the door of my shop for 30 years, and would be hard-pressed to honor a non-existent warranty for same...

I understand that it is an undersized mould. Is there a "U" on it? Lyman used to sell a lot of undersized molds and marked them this way. If there is a "U" on it, then the e-bay seller didn't know enough to mention it, and again, your beef is with that person, not Lyman... If there is no "U," this is probably one that got out the door without the "U" getting stamped on it...

I hope you can see you are putting them (Lyman) in an impossible situation. They're never going to be able to make you happy. You, I, the other folks on this thread, and Lyman, all know it was made wrong, but they (Lyman) weren't part of the transaction between you and the seller (nor was I or the others who have been agreeing/acknowledging the problem), so it's not Lyman's problem. The seller is who you should take this up with... And, I think you most-certainly should, because you are out extra money (and/or time) no matter how you look at it. (Shipping the mould back-and-forth to Lyman, and repair materials and time when you get it back to get it up to diameter are all costs you have to consider being added on to whatever you paid for the mould.)

Lyman made you the best offer they could under the circumstances, and (I think) you rightfully turned it down. The real solution is to go after the seller. They should know what they're selling today, just as Lyman should have 30 years ago, don't you think?? The way you are fervently pursuing this, it's like you're looking at the e-bay seller as a human being not a business (when in reality it WAS a business transaction), and that the business (Lyman) is a bottomless pit of free money, since it's a business, and can absorb whatever costs it needs to, because someone there made a mistake (if it's in fact not stamped with a U) 30 years ago...

The only way your position makes sense (that Lyman is the only route for you to get this fixed) is if there is missing information (like there is a "U" stamped on it, the seller mentioned it, and you didn't know what that meant, so now you're stuck), or you don't understand how e-bay works (like e-bay's return policies and feedback system).

Please be assured none of this is an attack on you. I'm just trying to get you to look at the situation differently. I'm not a critic inasmuch as I think you're looking at the overall situation from a wrong perspective. I understand you think the same of me. Let me give it one more shot:

I don't know what you do for a living, but if you bought a cabinet making company from someone 15 years ago, and you take pride in your work and do a good job, and one day a fellow called and said, "I bought a house yesterday, and the previous owner gave me paperwork showing your company put cabinets in the house 25 years ago, and the door just fell off of one, and I noticed that door's hinge wasn't mortised and screwed correctly, so I expect you to come out and fix it for free," what would you say??

Just guessing, but I bet you'd say something like, "well, those cabinets are plenty old, but I want you to think well of my company's name, because someday you might want more cabinets, so how about I come out and look them over and fix it for cost?" That's pretty darn reasonable of you under the circumstances, don't you think? Especially, since the guy bought the home warranty when he bought the house and there was language in the sales agreement for the house that anything that broke in the first 48 hours was the sellers responsibility and could have gotten it "fixed" under those contracts instead of bothering you? (Home warranty and contract language being an analogy for the E-bay return policies and seller feedback you can leave.)

Sorry, that's the best analogy I could do at Midnight... [smilie=6:

[Echo]

Echo,
I've never not understood what you were saying.

As a business owner, I never want anything that's wrong to go out the door either, but it's a hard pill for me to swallow when I have to honor someone's idea of a warranty (which does not actually exist) on something that was not made when I even owned the business... Well, when you bought the business, you bought it's history, too, including receivables, payables, and other debt. You would have included consideration for those concerns when making the offer.

Doing so would mean my prices would soon be out of the atmosphere. I don't have any control over what someone does with one of my products after it's been out the door of my shop for 30 years, and would be hard-pressed to honor a non-existent warranty for same... The problem with this mold doesn't stem from something someone did AFTER it left the factory. The mold is in beautiful condition - but is undersize, something no one who had possession after it left the factory could have reasonably done.

I understand that it is an undersized mould. Is there a "U" on it? No Lyman used to sell a lot of undersized molds and marked them this way. If there is a "U" on it, then the e-bay seller didn't know enough to mention it, and again, your beef is with that person, not Lyman... If there is no "U," this is probably one that got out the door without the "U" getting stamped on it...

I hope you can see you are putting them (Lyman) in an impossible situation. Well, No, not impossible. Maybe not convenient, but not impossible They're never going to be able to make you happy. Sure they could have - I think.. Maybe they couldn't re-cut the mold with their new cherries - if they could have, I would be happy. I guess I'm simply believing that it is cheaper for them to offer me a deal on a new mold than spending the labor on re-cutting. Offering me a deal costs them nothing but Profit, whereas re-cutting the cavities costs them machine and labor time. You, I, the other folks on this thread, and Lyman, all know it was made wrong, but they (Lyman) weren't part of the transaction between you and the seller (nor was I or the others who have been agreeing/acknowledging the problem), so it's not Lyman's problem. The seller is who you should take this up with... And, I think you most-certainly should, because you are out extra money (and/or time) no matter how you look at it. (Shipping the mould back-and-forth to Lyman, and repair materials and time when you get it back to get it up to diameter are all costs you have to consider being added on to whatever you paid for the mould.) Too true, but I have no problem with the shipping, the repair materials, and, as for the time - retired, you know.

Lyman made you the best offer they could under the circumstances, and (I think) you rightfully turned it down. The real solution is to go after the seller. They should know what they're selling today, just as Lyman should have 30 years ago, don't you think?? The Seller is an amateur who possibly is not even aware that the mold is undersize. I can't assume that every boolit caster is experienced enough to realize the mold wasn't made right. I don't need to belabor this point. The way you are fervently Not that fervently... pursuing this, it's like you're looking at the e-bay seller as a human being not a business (when in reality it WAS a business transaction), and that the business (Lyman) is a bottomless pit of free money, since it's a business, and can absorb whatever costs it needs to, because someone there made a mistake (if it's in fact not stamped with a U) 30 years ago... Not so - as an old CQE/ISO9000 type and Management Consultant I like to see Quality practiced in production as well as management. Granted, the error occurred decades ago. But it was their error.

The only way your position makes sense (that Lyman is the only route for you to get this fixed) No, I don't see Lyman as the only avenue of getting this fixed. I mentioned that I would be lapping the mold myself, and I'll bet there are folks on this forum that would be able to re-cut the mold. Maybe not. is if there is missing information (like there is a "U" stamped on it, the seller mentioned it, and you didn't know what that meant, so now you're stuck), or you don't understand how e-bay works (like e-bay's return policies and feedback system). There is no 'U', and I don't blame the seller for the above reason.

Please be assured none of this is an attack on you. MM10, I don't see it as an attack on me. I see it as a difference of opinion, nothing more. I hope you see it the same way. I'm just trying to get you to look at the situation differently. I'm not a critic inasmuch as I think you're looking at the overall situation from a wrong perspective. I understand you think the same of me. Let me give it one more shot:

I don't know what you do for a living, but if you bought a cabinet making company from someone 15 years ago, and you take pride in your work and do a good job, and one day a fellow called and said, "I bought a house yesterday, and the previous owner gave me paperwork showing your company put cabinets in the house 25 years ago, and the door just fell off of one, and I noticed that door's hinge wasn't mortised and screwed correctly, so I expect you to come out and fix it for free," what would you say??

Just guessing, but I bet you'd say something like, "well, those cabinets are plenty old, but I want you to think well of my company's name, because someday you might want more cabinets, so how about I come out and look them over and fix it for cost?" That's pretty darn reasonable of you under the circumstances, don't you think? Especially, since the guy bought the home warranty when he bought the house and there was language in the sales agreement for the house that anything that broke in the first 48 hours was the sellers responsibility and could have gotten it "fixed" under those contracts instead of bothering you? (Home warranty and contract language being an analogy for the E-bay return policies and seller feedback you can leave.) Well - fairly weak analogy. But that's the way I would have handled that situation - the way I wanted Lyman to fix my situation. If they had said they could do it (re-cut the cavities), but it would cost, say, $20 (machine time & labor) plus shipping cost to make it right, I guess I would have said 'Press on'.

Sorry, that's the best analogy I could do at Midnight... [smilie=6:

MM, we are still friends.

[geargnasher]

As has been mentioned, next time you want a mould, order it from Accurate Molds and you'll never have to worry about it being right. Tom will make certain it's made to your order specs before it's shipped. Much better mould quality anyway.

Gear

[MakeMineA10mm]

MM, we are still friends.

Excellent. That's the most important thing to me. :drinks: