Wideners 860 on sale

[ron brooks]

Just a heads up. Widners has 860 for $25.00 per 8 pounds.

Ron

[garandsrus]

Ron,

What calibers are candiates for loading with 860 and cast bullets?

Thanks,
John

[Lee]

Thank you, Ron. I placed an order today. (Probably wrong, but don't think the price will go lower than this!!................................Lee:)

[jballs918]

ok what other then 7mm mag that can use this stuff. granted at almost 80 grains or so a load im thinking one can go thru alot of it, but i really dont think i will go thru that many 7mm mag

[Buckshot]

...............The 6.5x55 and the 7x57 will both generate close to design ballistics with a caseload of WC860. Plus it burns clean in that application. In the 7x57 a charge of 42.0grs under a heavy cast slug is very accurate, and ditto 34.0grs in the 6.5x55. However neither burns very clean in the application.

A full caseload in the 30-'06 will net about 2100+ fps with a heavy cast slug and burn clean. You can forget it in any straight case as the expansion ratio is too high to build enough pressure to burn worth a darn. You CAN duplex it though. In the 45-70 with 4.0grs under a caseload you'll get BP velocities and it burns clean.

.............Buckshot

[David R]

46 grains in the 308 behind a 190 grain is accurate for me, but you gotta clean the gun now and then. Accurate enough that I bought a second jug, my first is almost gone.

David

[jballs918]

what about a 32ws or a 7.5x55 swiss or 7,62x54. they are all pretty close

[ron brooks]

According to Felix 860 was too slow for a 35 grain case, but ok in a 60 grain case.

Ron

[jballs918]

ok so mostly it needs a large charge then

[454PB]

I have several 8 pounders of WC860 and it compares closely to Hodgdon H-870 in burning rate.

I use it for heavy bullet loads in my 7mm Rem. magnum, and suspect it would work well in something like a .264 magnum.

I also use it in the same .308 Win. recipe that David R quoted, but it leaves a lot of unbuned powder in the bore.

[jballs918]

im just wondering if it would be worth it for my 7mm mag

[Ricochet]

Yes, it's terrific stuff for the 7mm Rem Mag and .300 Weatherby Mag with heavy bullets and heavy charges with a magnum primer and "Factory Crimp." My lot of WC860 is a little too hot for 175 grain bullets in the 7mm at 80 grains; it gives 2960 FPS in freezing weather and a sticky bolt in the summer. Need to back down a few grains. In the .300 Wby I can't overload it under jacketed bullets to 200 grains. (Speer Hot Core.) It just won't hold enough to be too much. 100 grains of it can be settled by vigorous case tapping during charging in neck sized Remington brass, and compressed under the bullet. Gives about 3000 FPS from my 24" Vanguard with no pressure signs, and is very accurate. Works well with 180 grainers, too.

I've never tried it with cast bullets.

[borderman]

Richochet (or others) - I just ordered 4 jugs for my 300 Weatherby. Stuffing dacron gets very old. Any load data using the Lyman 311284 or similar sized boolit? 2000 fps would be more than enough for me.

Many thanks,

[Ricochet]

I've never done any cast bullet loading or downloading with jacketed bullets with this stuff. I've regarded it as a pack-the-case-full fuel for full power magnum loads. I have used it with full, compressed loads and lighter bullets. In .300 Weatherby, 100 grains of WC860 under a 110 grain Hornady Spire Point gives 3280 FPS, a most impressive muzzle flash and blast, a hefty shove to the rear, and leaves the bore pretty clean. I thought it would be a "reduced load," which it was in terms of bullet momentum, but the jet thrust from all that powder gas makes up a big part of the recoil. This powder's extremely inefficient with all but the heaviest bullets and heavy charges in big cases. Still quite inefficient there too, actually, but under those conditions you can approach the maximum velocities attainable with more efficient powders.

I'm averse to loads that leave lots of unburned powder. Had a bad experience with an attempt to load cast Gould hollow points in .45-70 with a full capacity charge of IMR 7383 (which I've found to be apparently similar to 4350 in burning rate, with a lower bulk density.) Got black powder-like velocity of 1300 FPS or so, which was OK. But every powder grain survived intact, just with a surface layer burned off so they were a bit smaller in diameter and the central holes were a bit bigger. Those powder grains quickly jammed the action of my Marlin 1895, and it was a real chore getting the stuff out. My Chrony was full of those powder grains, too.

[borderman]

Well I don't need full power loads out of WC860 in the Weatherby. I can get that with other powders and don't care for the recoil. Looking thru past threads there are a bunch of other cartridge uses so I am sure it will get lots of use. I held off previously due to the unburned powder issues but I don't *think* that will be a problem. I clean after every outing anyway. $25 a jug is just too good to pass up.

[corvette8n]

Will this powder work for .338 winmag?

[Ricochet]

Sure it'll work, and likely you can find loads that will shoot well. I don't think you'll be able to get maximum velocities with jacketed bullets in the .338, though. Too slow burning. It's marginal for the heaviest bullets with compressed charges in .300 Weatherby, and certainly can't be overloaded IMO. Lots of folks use it in much smaller cartridges for medium velocity cast loads and don't mind the unburned powder.

[GregP42]

Would this stuff work in a 6mm-06 or a 220 swift you think? Or am I off my rocker with rounds this small?

[Wayne Smith]

H870 worked well in the 25-06, especially with the heavier 117 and 120 gr. bullets. I was shooting @ South Coast Gun Club in the LA area at that time and the guy who turned me on to it said "That stuff burns all the way to the target!"

[Tristan]

...............The 6.5x55 and the 7x57 will both generate close to design ballistics with a caseload of WC860. Plus it burns clean in that application. In the 7x57 a charge of 42.0grs under a heavy cast slug is very accurate, and ditto 34.0grs in the 6.5x55. However neither burns very clean in the application.

A full caseload in the 30-'06 will net about 2100+ fps with a heavy cast slug and burn clean. You can forget it in any straight case as the expansion ratio is too high to build enough pressure to burn worth a darn. You CAN duplex it though. In the 45-70 with 4.0grs under a caseload you'll get BP velocities and it burns clean.

.............Buckshot

Will it work with both cast and the unmentionable projectiles in 6.5x55?

I'd love to hear of anyone's experience with this powder in this caliber!

Thanks,

Tristan

[Maven]

Jason & Tristan, WC 860 can be used in the 6.5 Swede, the 7.5 Swiss and the 7.62 x 54R. With the latter two, I use 48gr. with mag. primers and CB's between 175-185gr. in the Swiss and #314299 or an equally heavy "fat" Loverin. As for the 6.5 Swede, let's just say Buckshot & I don't agree about the appropriateness of 860 in this cartridge. We've both used it, but he likes it. I, on the other hand, have had problems "taming" it, meaning I got high extreme spreads in velocity with it. Here are chrono. results for it in the 6.5 x 55mm with a 145gr. CB (Mag. primers, no fillers; rifle is Mod. 96, "as issued"):

36.1gr 860 in CBC brass 1,748fps +-38 ES = 140

36.0gr " in Win. " 1,704fps +-39 ES = 166

36.0gr " in Fed. " 1,755fps +-58 ES = 168

These speeds, however, are a bit fast for peak accuracy with the 1:7 twist in the milsurp 6.5 x 55mm's. Then too, I disliked the large amount of unburned powder left behind and no longer use it in this cartridge. VV N 133, H/IMR 4198 or AA 5744 are much better, but more expensive choices: 16.5 - 17.5gr. & standard primers work very well with any of them. Lastly, my current favorite in the 6.5 Swede is 14-15gr. WC 820 with standard primers: Accurate, clean-burning and you can dispense it with a pistol powder measure.*


*Two cautions: 1) 14gr. can get lost in the 6.5 x 55mm case. Make especially certain that you don't double charge one! 2) You've got to throw and weigh 4 groups of at least 10 charges and average and record them before you can use a particular "rotor" with confidence.

[MarkK]

Hey Maven,
For the Swede load.... Was that a CB or J-boolit (145gr?) under 14-15 gr of WC820?
TIA, MarkK

[Maven]

Mark, It was a cast LBT spire point, but I use the same load with 2 other CB designs as well.

[GooseGestapo]

Any one tried 860 in a .243.
I haven't located any H870 data for it.
Seem's like it could work with 100gr bullets.

I will try mine when I get it. And will post results.

[Buckshot]

Will it work with both cast and the unmentionable projectiles in 6.5x55?

I'd love to hear of anyone's experience with this powder in this caliber!

Thanks,

Tristan

Tristan, yes it will. In the 6.5x55 shot in my M38 (24" bbl) with a Hornady 140gr JSP seated to touch I got 2700 fps and superb accuracy. I'll bet in a 29" bbl it's be doing over 2800 fps.

In the 7x57 again with a full case and the Remington 175gr C-L JSP from a 29" bbl it went a tad over 2400 fps. That is the original ballistics of the 7x57, or very close to it. Again the accuracy was very good. A shorter bbl would impose a velocity drop.

http://www.fototime.com/{A18FA63F-05E5-44A9-87E2-18266FE8DE41}/picture.JPG

Groups at 50 yards, 7x57 RCBS 7mm-168 (172gr actual) using WC860 & WC872.

Below are some groups fired with WC872 in the 6.5x55.

http://www.fototime.com/{FA714A40-61E6-4D8E-A31B-CAE4B7132F20}/picture.JPG

WC860 and WC872 are just about interchangeable.

................Buckshot

[RayinNH]

Wideners is now $35. for WC860, however Pat's reloading is now $28. for #8...Ray

http://www.patsreloading.com/patsrel/prices.htm

[Bigscot]

How will WC-860 work in a 30-30 and it was asked about use in a .243?

Bigscot

[RayinNH]

Bigscot, this was taken from Castpics, it's Buckshot's data. He may be able to elaborate...Ray


http://www.castpics.net/RandD/load_data/3030/30_30.jpg

[Junior1942]

WC860 is a great substitute for black powder velocities in 45-70. In my Handi-Rifle 22", the Lee 500-3R w/a styro wad over a slightly compressed load of 860 (~55 grs) gives 1131 fps and good accuracy and light powder residue. Lighter loads give lots of powder residue.

[9.3X62AL]

No work with the 243 and WC-860 and J-words.....should try that out with 100 grain SP's. "Hodgdon's Data Manual, #23" (March 1979) shows on Page 102 that a jacketed 105 grain bullet was given 2788 FPS in a 26" barrel by a MAXIMUM load of 52.0 grains of H-870 powder. No starting load is listed, and no loading data for any other lighter-weight bullet is given. Almost anecdotal, that--but there it is there.

With the 6.5 x 55 in a Ruger 77R (22" barrel), 55.0 grains of WC-860 gave 2475 FPS to a Hornady 140 grainer (#2630). A little powder trash was present in the bore after firing. Not bad, but my hunting load is 45.0 x IMR 4831 for 2700 FPS. Tle latter load could be a little warm for old Mausers, so go slowly.

In the 45-70 (Ruger #1), I duplex the WC-860. First in the case is 6.0 x IMR-4198, followed by 46.0 x WC-860. Federal 215 primers light things off. The Lee 405 grain plain base is seated to make a 100% loading density powder column. Results are 1300 FPS (1873 ballistics), pretty good accuracy, and no bore trash to speak of. In the 45-70, I call the WC-860 "Filler With Attitude", and the IMR-4198 provides sufficient irritation to the main charge to enable useful velocities. A former load--3.0 x 4198/48.0 x WC-860--gave good accuracy, but only produced about 1000 FPS. Kind of a waste of components, since I have several revolvers that can better that result on game--consume less component volume doing so--and offer better portability in the bargain.

[Bear Claw]

Hey all

Where do you get the load data for that powder? I would buy some but dont wana blow my gun apart.....How much can one reduce a load w/ this powder? I find no load data in my load books, what powder is this near to?

[Ricochet]

It's very simlar to H870. Lots of the applications people on this board use it for are without any published data in manuals. In fact, I'd wager that half of the loads people on this board shoot aren't to be found in a manual.

[RayinNH]

Bear Claw, Some data can be found at Castpics.Net. A lot of this info is Buckshots work, so thank him when you can...Ray

http://www.castpics.net/RandD/load_data/load_data_index.htm

[Bike Rider]

Ron,

$25 is a good price for 8 lbs. At that price its cheaper than propane:))) When I run out of propane I can always fill the fire place with 860.

[Ricochet]

Ron,

$25 is a good price for 8 lbs. At that price its cheaper than propane:))) When I run out of propane I can always fill the fire place with 860.

It just might put out more heat faster, too.

[steveb]

Time to show my ignorance here. What is duplexing loads? You guys arent mixing powders are you? I am interested to see if I can use 860 in my 45/70 but want to be clear on duplex....Steve.

[wiljen]

Time to show my ignorance here. What is duplexing loads? You guys arent mixing powders are you? I am interested to see if I can use 860 in my 45/70 but want to be clear on duplex....Steve.

Mixing is a bad word! We are talking about using a load with two distinct layers of powder - not mixing! The primer charge (if you will) is a small charge of faster burning powder placed in the case first and kept against the primer. The main (bulk) charge is then added so the bullet will compress the powder column and prevent movement of the powders. In this way the charges do not mix and ignition is a sequential event. primer-priming charge-main charge. These loads should be stored and transported primer down to keep the powder from mixing due to vibration in transit for best results.

The standard seems to be h4198 as a priming charge although other similar powders could be substituted with a little experimentation. Speaking of which - what other powders have people here used successfully for priming charges in duplex loads? I know I used unique and 1680 in a few.

[georgeld]

With a compressed load there shouldn't be any need to keep them
upright. Things can't move in there no matter what.

I've never tried it.
don't sound like much velocity for the amount of powder.
Guess that's desireable for cast though, right?

[twotoescharlie]

not familar with military powders, is wc860 and smp860 one and the same?

TTC

[Junior1942]

Time to show my ignorance here. What is duplexing loads? You guys arent mixing powders are you? I am interested to see if I can use 860 in my 45/70 but want to be clear on duplex....Steve.Steve, load WC860 in 45-70 exactly like you would load Pyrodex RS. Use a wad of any kind, I use styro, and just enough 860 for the bullet to slightly compress it. Give it a good crimp. My 45-70 gives me 1150 fps with the Lee 500-3R. Less powder and less crimp gives lots of unburned powder in the barrel.

[Ricochet]

Charlie, WC860 is the original designation. Western Cartridge is where the WC came from. They made it. (Western Cartridge became Olin-Mathieson Corporation, bought Winchester, and kept on making their powders with the WC designations.) Some companies buy up lots of the stuff surplus and attach their own designation to it. You can bet that smp860 is just that. And I'd bet they just mean "Surplus Military Powder" by the smp.