Sniper scope

[Bullshop]

This may not be the right forum for this but I didn't know where else to put it.
What I would like to know is what brand names of scopes and models are currently being use by the armed services to make the incredibly long shots I hear so much about.

[Doc Highwall]

Some are Leupold MKIV scopes.

[herbert buckland]

Schidt & Bender scopes are fited ti the AI 338s & 50s

[Bullshop]

So I imagine the S&B scopes being used in the sand box will run about 4 grand per unit?
That's probably why I know nothing about them.
Anyone here have hands on experiance with them? I would like to know what features these scopes offer.

[Doc Highwall]

I have a Leupold MKVI 8.5x-25x50mm and is a great scope. I have a power booster on it that makes it 11x-32.5x

[leadman]

Don't know what the military is using, but the guys on Speciality Pistols seem to like the Leupold VXIII with Holland Reticle and the Nightforce scopes.

[Bullshop]

What I am really after here is what in addition to the highest quality optics are the scopes provided with to make possible the level of consistent long range hits these people are making?
Are they equipped with things like lazer ranging capability, tracking for moving target, electronic poi comp, reticle compensation, or what ever other type of gadgetry they can think of to put in there. They cant possibly be doing what they are doing with a plain old hi magnification scope with a duplex reticle or even a mil dot system.
These people are doing some precise extreme range shooting to beyond a mile.

[felix]

It is not the optics as much as it is the electronics. Light amplification is but one attribute provided by the software. Think high dollar digital cameras. ... felix

[Mk42gunner]

Dan,

I don't know what they are using now, but when I retired six years ago most of the scopes I saw come through my armory were 30mm tube Leupolds.

Robert

[Bullshop]

Ah digital!!! Computer in a scope? If thats the case then there are likely all kinds of neat tricks they can do. It should be able to read the range to the target and compensate for drop and target speed and even take things like elevation above sea level and barometric pressure and maybe even read the wind in some way like mirage or something I could never think of. Just program in your cartridge specs like velocity and bullet BC and the computer can do all the thinking. I want one!

[Trifocals]

I think they are also using Nightforce scopes.

[herbert buckland]

Long range sniping systems are evolving so fast that nothing seems to be standard other than they are systems now not just good rifle scopes,they still require highly trained and motavated personal to youse them ,the men do get more respect from the troops now,but it is still a bad idear to be captured

[Doc Highwall]

Also remember the best optics are useless with out being able to hold zero and have highly repeatable windage and elevation adjustments.

[mag44uk]

I have a couple of friends here in the UK who shoot AI AW`s in 308 with S&B scopes.
They can both routinely hit a Fig11 target at 1000 metres.
I have seen UK issue A1`s in 338 fitted with S&B`s too.
These scopes are top drawer equipment,as are the rifles.
During winter months these rifles often spend all day in the pouring rain on the range and fare better than the shooters!
Both of them have bullet drop charts for 100 to 1200 yards and can pretty much do one shot hits.
Cheers,
Tony

[akajun]

Also remember the best optics are useless with out being able to hold zero and have highly repeatable windage and elevation adjustments.

+1000000000000000

If you cant hold your zero's your sighting in again at every shot.

[herbert buckland]

If you want repetability and quality optics check out the S&Bs,the scopes that are doing the long shots on the 338s & 50s are mixture of types from standard optical sniper scope to others that are hooked up to or have digital shooting systems intergrated,thinkBurris Eliminator with a much smarter system

[AJ Peacock]

My understanding is that the typical long range sniper rifle is the 338 Lapua and also the good old 50BMG (multiple shots can make up for perfect aiming). Scopes are Leupold M4's and also some Nightforce scopes.

I personally like the Nightforce Scopes/reticles better than the Leupies.

AJ

[280Ackley]

I have a couple of friends here in the UK who shoot AI AW`s in 308 with S&B scopes.
They can both routinely hit a Fig11 target at 1000 metres.
I have seen UK issue A1`s in 338 fitted with S&B`s too.
These scopes are top drawer equipment,as are the rifles.
During winter months these rifles often spend all day in the pouring rain on the range and fare better than the shooters!
Both of them have bullet drop charts for 100 to 1200 yards and can pretty much do one shot hits.
Cheers,
Tony

I'm curious. Are these privately owned guns or military? Are there restrictions on the private ownership of long range guns? Even here in the midwest 1000yd ranges are hard to find, do have many open to the public?

[herbert buckland]

My understanding is that the typical long range sniper rifle is the 338 Lapua and also the good old 50BMG (multiple shots can make up for perfect aiming). Scopes are Leupold M4's and also some Nightforce scopes.

I personally like the Nightforce Scopes/reticles better than the Leupies.

AJThe US may be yousing the Mk 4 & Nightforce scopes but the records are being made with the AI 338s & S&B scopes yoused by the british & Australian troops,I have seen photos of US troops with the same kit

[MtGun44]

The keys are top notch gun, ammo and optics plus a skilled TEAM. Spotter has rangefinder
and calls the corrections. Given the unknowability of the wind, 1 st shot hits are essentially
impossible at extreme ranges. They get close as they can with skill, technology and years
of training and then quickly correct windage and elev as required based on the 1st round
impact. 2nd or 3rd is there. Skill, training, teamwork and equipment at the highest level.

Bill

[mag44uk]

I'm curious. Are these privately owned guns or military? Are there restrictions on the private ownership of long range guns? Even here in the midwest 1000yd ranges are hard to find, do have many open to the public?

The 308`s are privately owned and the military issue 338`s I saw in an Army armoury.
Its possible to own 338 and 50 bmg rifles here in the UK,believe it or not!
Nothing semi auto though. An AI in 50 bmg will cost $12000 plus scope!
There is a 50 cal shooting club here called FCSA. Its big money to shoot though at $8 a round!
There arent many ranges that will allow 338 and 50 because of the required danger area.
Sennybridge in the Brecon Beacons (Wales) is a good one with targets out to at least 1500 metres.
Cheers,
Tony

[mike in co]

I think they are also using Nightforce scopes.

when the seals got thier new accuracy international sniper rifles they also went with night force scopes...like 5.5-22 or something like that....

and how do they make those shots ????yep the electronics help, having a spoter to help read the wind helps....the bottom line ???

practice..practice and more practice..........

these guys actually wear out bbls......

mike in co

[wingnut49b]

Not sure if it's bad juju to post another site, but www.snipershide.com is a long range forum with a LOT of good info. There are some pretty amazing soldiers and civilians on there sharing info. It's as good a board as this place is.

I haven't heard of a single person using more than great optics, and perfect technique. This isn't to say it's not out there, but 1000 yards is not 'tough' in that world. Not easy, but by no means on the edge. I'm not counting electronic ballistic tables on an iphone, etc.

Most of the guys with any sort of budget are shooting a .22LR out to 200-300 yards. That's a savage bolt with bipod, $150 scope, and match ammo.

I'm not that good... Maybe someday.

[mike in co]

Not sure if it's bad juju to post another site, but www.snipershide.com is a long range forum with a LOT of good info. There are some pretty amazing soldiers and civilians on there sharing info. It's as good a board as this place is.

I haven't heard of a single person using more than great optics, and perfect technique. This isn't to say it's not out there, but 1000 yards is not 'tough' in that world. Not easy, but by no means on the edge. I'm not counting electronic ballistic tables on an iphone, etc.

Most of the guys with any sort of budget are shooting a .22LR out to 200-300 yards. That's a savage bolt with bipod, $150 scope, and match ammo.

I'm not that good... Maybe someday.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
the 22lr at 200 yds is very similar in characteristics to shooting palma at 800/900/1000 yds.( that is a 155gr bullet out of a looong bbl with a tight bore and must fit a nato 7.62 chamber)
there is a reduced target and it is refered to as mini palma. the drift provides realistic low dollar trigger time. i know no one shooting 22's at 300.......
this is not realistic shooting for people that shoot 168 (m852) nor 118lr( 175 sie mk) in 308 win sniper rifles.
the mil still has 308win(7.62x51) 300 win mag, 338 lapua, and 50 bmg sniper rifles...unless things have changed, the 50bmg is technically an anti material gun not an anti personel gun.
mike in co

[mtnman31]

Leupold, Schmidt and Bender, Nightforce are the optics most commonly used.

Most just use plain old high powered optics - no fancy computer guided fantasy stuff. The effectiveness of military sniping comes in the form of a team - shooter and spotter. The spotter is using a high powered spotting scope and/or laser range finder. He guides the shooter in each of his shots. As Mtgun44 mentioned, the team is what gets the job done. It isn't like TV where the lone sniper makes a first shot kill at a mile. Long distance hits are often the result of several shots with dope changes and corrections in between. The most important critereia to be successful at long range shooting is PRACTICE. Too many of the geardo's and armchair warriors think you need a $10,000 setup to have any success. The interenet is chock full of "reviews" bashing one brand of scope or another. Fact is many of these are perfectly suited for just about any job that could be asked of them. People just feel the need to bash on certain brands or features - look at our own site to see the constant axing of Lee and Taurus products.

While you do need some quality gear, practice and familiarity will trump expensive equipment any day of the week.

[Rangefinder]

No offense intended, but (to me) calling any scope a "sniper scope" is on the same level as a "mathematician's pencil". Good optics are just that, and that's what you need to go on. Be able to see your target clearly, have cross-hairs fine enough not to cover what you're looking at for those extended ranges, and a solid mounting system that holds zero. Everything else is more hype than necessary. My 6mm Remi is my go-to 1000 meter rifle, and 9-12 inch plates aren't even much of a challenge unless I'm dealing with excessive mirage on the target, shifting wind patterns in the flight path, or too much coffee in the system. A $2000 Zeiss or Swarovski isn't going to correct any of those. But my 6-18x50 Bushnell Banner makes the shot every time if I do what I'm supposed to.

[Doc Highwall]

In small-bore shooting I tell them they cannot buy a 400 score, you have to earn it. It reminds me in the movie Quigley Down Under when Quigley first arrived and was having dinner and the kid says "Just give me a rifle like that and I will show him how to shoot"

[69daytona]

US Optics is high on the list too. The SN3 3.5x22 x58mm will let you see clearly until there is no light. is dead nuts on in a box test and has been dropped a few times and still holds its zero.
Plus they are gurenteed for life even if its sold to someone else.

[Bullshop]

I can see where very precise repeatable click adjustments that do not change value throughout the entire adjustment range would be invaluable.
That must be one of the BIG differences between a scope of very high quality and the not so high.
I have calibrated several hi $ scopes that the actual adjustment value does not equal advertised value. Not only this but the value will change if corrections are made in both windage and elevation at the same time. Hope I said that right.
So I guess when looking at the extreme $ scopes like S&B and Nightforce what we are looking at is #1 highest quality optic possible and #2 absolutely repeatable precise click adjustments. Is that about the size of it.
I know good shooting can be done with lesser scopes but I sure would like to try one of those $2,000.000 to $4,000.000 S&B scopes. Don't even have to be mine I would just like to try one. You know just to see what its like for the other half.

[herbert buckland]

To apreciate the S&B scope you realy have to test it on 338 well past 1000meters ,It is also a very ruged unit.I have heard very good reports on the US optics Shooting system but have not seen a full report yet

[Bullshop]

herbert buckland
So was that an offer?

[herbert buckland]

herbert buckland
So was that an offer?You are welcome to try my setup,but I expect there would be one a litle closer than I am ,I live in Australia

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

What I am really after here is what in addition to the highest quality optics are the scopes provided with to make possible the level of consistent long range hits these people are making?
Are they equipped with things like lazer ranging capability, tracking for moving target, electronic poi comp, reticle compensation, or what ever other type of gadgetry they can think of to put in there. They cant possibly be doing what they are doing with a plain old hi magnification scope with a duplex reticle or even a mil dot system.
These people are doing some precise extreme range shooting to beyond a mile.

When I left the litter box a few years back the "cannibals" down on "murderer's row" were using Schmidt & Bender 3-12x 50's and a few Unertl 10's. Nobody was making anything near 1-mile shots though.. Must be the Army making those long shots, they don't like getting too close to a firefight.

[PAT303]

+1000000000000000

If you cant hold your zero's your sighting in again at every shot.

Thats the advantage S&B's have,zero backlash in the adjustments. Pat

[PAT303]

I can see where very precise repeatable click adjustments that do not change value throughout the entire adjustment range would be invaluable.
That must be one of the BIG differences between a scope of very high quality and the not so high.
I have calibrated several hi $ scopes that the actual adjustment value does not equal advertised value. Not only this but the value will change if corrections are made in both windage and elevation at the same time. Hope I said that right.
So I guess when looking at the extreme $ scopes like S&B and Nightforce what we are looking at is #1 highest quality optic possible and #2 absolutely repeatable precise click adjustments. Is that about the size of it.
I know good shooting can be done with lesser scopes but I sure would like to try one of those $2,000.000 to $4,000.000 S&B scopes. Don't even have to be mine I would just like to try one. You know just to see what its like for the other half.

I'd strongly advise not to look through any of the European scopes or like me you'll start thinking how much you could sell your kids for to buy them. Pat

[Bullshop]

Too late I already looked. Actually a couple years ago I became an importer for Falcon Optics. Now I know these scopes are not even close to S&B but they are serviceable and in my price range.
With it on an old Savage single shot 112V in 308 I can be dangerous to a foe to 800 or so.
I like to take my boys out for long range practice. Last year we were shooting at 600. Two of my boys have Stevens 200's in 243 and ho hum scopes on board. Another was shooting a Stevens in 7mm08. I offered $1.00 per hit inside the 2" bull. In very short order I was down $10.00 and had to cut off the gravy train. Dangerous boys!

[twocool4u]

I have found the best place to learn about optics is http://www.opticstalk.com/.

www.snipershide.com is the second best optics forum I am aware of.

I have been able to look through Zeiss, Nightforce, Kahles, and Leopold at a gun store one right after another. Zeiss glass was a little better than Kahles, a fair bit better than Nightforce, and a lot better then Leopold. But, they say the Nightforce military models are more repeatable and much more rugged then any civilian grade scope. I would like to try a S&B, but do not really have the $$ for it anyway. Zeiss also makes the high end military models as well but I have never seen one.

I do plan on buying a Zeiss, probably a 2.5 x 10 x 42.

[Doc Highwall]

If you go 6mmbr.com they say that a lot of the new records are being set using Nightforce scopes.