Foul Out III

[montana_charlie]

I am graduly working myself up to seriously considering this tool.
But, it comes with a 30 inch rod, and I need closer to 40 inches.

I think I read (somewhere) that a longer rod is available, but I can't find any evidence of it being out there.
Does anybody know?

I could probably make a longer rod, but it needs to be of a diameter that the new (Type III) unit will fit on.
Can anybody tell me the diameter of the rod supplied with the Foul Out III?

CM

[noylj]

Go down to the hardware store and get a steel rod as long as you want.
It's the electronics and the lead acetate or copper acetate solutions that make the system.

[jmar254]

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9704/Product/FOUL_OUT_III

Says:
SPECS: Kit contains: Control unit, 120 VAC plug-In transformer and lead wire, 1 .125: (2.17mm) diameter 30" (76.2cm) long, stainless steel multi-gun rod; 16 O-rings in four sizes; 4 bore plugs to fit .22 caliber through .45 caliber; 8 fl. oz. (237 ml) Cop Out Plus Solution; 8 fl. oz. (237 ml) Lead Out Plus Solution; 1 dispensing cup; 1 owners manual. Replacement Bore Plug Kit contains 1 each of sizes: small, med., large, X-large. Control unit not available separately. Replacement O-Ring Kit contains 5 each of sizes 22-270, 270-30, .30-41 (.125" ID), .410 shotgun (.125" ID), .30-.357 (.203" ID), .357 and up (.203" ID), shotgun.

[MtGun44]

Piece of stainless welding rod will work fine. If you need longer than 36", you can have
it welded together.

Especially effective on old milsurps.

Bill

[montana_charlie]

One eighth inch diameter (.125")...thanks jmar254.

CM

[sargenv]

I have the II model and that thing likely saved me a lot of scrubbing and lead/copper removal.. great unit.

[twotoescharlie]

build your own for about $10.00

TTC

[markinalpine]

build your own for about $10.00

TTC

YOU SPENT $10!!! WASTREL!!! :kidding:

I spent about 50 cents for two rubber plugs, $1 for a bottle of Parson's Non-Sudsing Ammonia, and used electrical tape around a couple of places on a stainless cleaning rod, and a 3volt cell phone recharger that I kept from an old, defunct phone, plus two small alligator clips from my junk box.

Mark :coffeecom

[geargnasher]

CM, I have one and love it. Works best for copper, but the lead solution works pretty well provided you empty-out and degrease the bore again every ten-15 minutes. Boolit lube between the layers of lead will effectively insulate the metal from the anode and will halt the process at each layer.

As has been suggested, take two 1/8" SS TiG rods and burn them together (just use a torch to melt them together).

Gear

[montana_charlie]

build your own for about $10.00
Yep, I am aware of the methods for building a home made unit, but removing lead is my intent. The home grown ammonia solutions are for copper.

Making the lead-specific solution is hampered by unavailability of the critical ingredient, and I don't want to spend a year growing a tablespoonful of lead acetate.
So, it leaves one considering Lead Out or Lead Out Plus.
Since the Outers tools don't all work with both solutions, where does that put a home made unit?

I'll go with the 'engineered' tool for this, but I have an idea about how to reverse the polarity, to utilize it for pulling rust out of bores, too.

CM

[montana_charlie]

Ahh!
There is a 40-inch rod available from Outers, and Midway has it.
Only costs about $21.

Just called the local steel retailer in town, and a 40-inch piece of .125" stainless rod is five bucks.

Now, that's a decision which may take some cogitatin'...
CM

[markinalpine]

http://secure.sciencecompany.com/Lead-Acetate-100g-P6385C670.aspx

Would this work?

Mark :coffeecom

[noylj]

I can see one of our in-house experimenters trying a solution ofdistilled water, acetone, ammonium acetate, lead acetate, and a surfactant (ammonium lauryl sulfate?) to do it all in one fell-swoop.

[dudel]

Rod is not particular (at least on the Foul-out II). I used a cleaning rod by once when I couldn't find the foul-out rods. It was considerably thicker and getting the O rings on was a pain; but it seemed to work faster.

I suspect any metallic rod would work. I've heard of people using welding wire. I'd probably stay away from threaded rod, as it would be harder to clean.

Love the Foul-Outs. Mine works great.

[a.squibload]

I think I was reading a Kroil thread indicating it would float the fouling (lead or copper)
out of a barrel?
Is the Foul-Out method faster, or more complete cleaning somehow?
Kinda like reverse electroplating, what's the name of the process?

Thanks.

---
I just read the Brownell's link, it said an hour or less,
I think the Kroil requires an overnight soak.

[geargnasher]

CM, if you want I can check the exact voltage and polarity of the Foul Out III, you might make your own if you're going to buy the rod anyway. I do agree with getting the "engineered tool", expecially since there is a built-in warning and status indicator, but if you knew the voltages you could just hook up a digital meter and keep an eye on it.

As for the lead solution, just order replacement fluid from one of the shooting warehouses like Midway, no need to buy the kit if you have the small parts on hand.

O-rings are super cheap, get an assortment at China Harbor or Wall of China Mart. Rubber plugs are also easy to get, as are 5V DC transformer/rectifiers. You probably already have a shoe box full of them anyway.

Just food for thought here, especially if you're cheap like me, but if you can spare the cash just buy the whole shebang and get that Outers extra-long rod, you won't be sorry.

Gear

[montana_charlie]

Thanks for the offer, Gear, but I already ordered the FO III. I'll pick up a four-foot piece of stainless rod next time I'm in Great Falls.


I think I was reading a Kroil thread indicating it would float the fouling (lead or copper)
out of a barrel?
Kroil will penetrate enough to loosen the grip of the leading, but it takes a very tight patch, driven through to bore with a mallet, to strip the lead off of the steel surface.


Is the Foul-Out method faster, or more complete cleaning somehow?
Kinda like reverse electroplating, what's the name of the process?
Yes, reverse electroplating is a good description. The lead on the bore surface gets moved to the rod, from which it is scraped off.

CM

[a.squibload]

Great, another piece of equipment, but maybe I can make this one!
Thanks for the info. I've heard of 'em but always thought they were too expensive.

[MtGun44]

Anybody playing with milsurps needs to treat themselves to a Foul Out. I find little in
my sporting rifles because I take care of the bores. Some milsurps are absolutely
amazing in the many layers of metal fouling which can be separated by carbon goop,
so it fools the Foul Out that it is done. Scrub out the whiskers of black goop and then
wash out the oil with solvent and go again.

Archeological dig.

Bill

[markinalpine]

...
Some milsurps are absolutely amazing in the many layers of metal fouling which can be separated by carbon goop,...
Bill

Is that what the Milsurp vendors mean when they describe a weapon as having a "dark bore?" :confused:

Thanks,
and Merry Christmas,
Mark [smilie=s:

[a.squibload]

I think that means they didn't have a flashlight...

[AZ-Stew]

If you're going to make your own and want to use one of the "wall wart" power supplies, read the label and make sure it has a DC output. AC will merely move the fouling to the rod, then plate it back onto the bore, 60 times per second.

Regards,

Stew

[perotter]

Anybody playing with milsurps needs to treat themselves to a Foul Out. I find little in
my sporting rifles because I take care of the bores. Some milsurps are absolutely
amazing in the many layers of metal fouling which can be separated by carbon goop,
so it fools the Foul Out that it is done.

Bill

100% agreement on that from me. I'd add used sporting rifles that one buys also. Back when I got my Foul Out II & cleaned a bunch of rifles is the amount that the group size tightened is what sold me on it.

I don't think a gun has been cleaned unless it has been Foul Outed. Or maybe the mix of vinegar & peroxide treatment. I haven't fully tested that yet.

[MtGun44]

No, a dark bore is a bore that is fairly heavily pitted from corrosive ammunition
being fired and then the bore not being properly cleaned in time to prevent corrosion
damage. Amazingly, some 'dark bore' guns still shoot well, although this is a fairly
unusual situation. IME, most dark bores will not shoot very accurately.

I have had milsurps with nice shiny looking bores or at least pretty good looking bores that
had a LOT of metal fouling layers. You can work nearly forever trying to get to the steel with
chemicals.

Bill

[geargnasher]

Anybody playing with milsurps needs to treat themselves to a Foul Out. I find little in
my sporting rifles because I take care of the bores. Some milsurps are absolutely
amazing in the many layers of metal fouling which can be separated by carbon goop,
so it fools the Foul Out that it is done. Scrub out the whiskers of black goop and then
wash out the oil with solvent and go again.

Archeological dig.

Bill

Layers of metal and carbon fouling do require frequent scrubbings between sessions with the FO to get to the base metal. It's amazing how you can clean a bore until a tight dry patch comes out clean, give it 15 minutes with the FO, then clean it again, like you never cleaned it before and the rod will have a green layer on it. Put the FO to work for another go and then scrub it out again. The amount of built-up junk in some bores has to be seen to be believed.

Gear

[montana_charlie]

I have a thin layer of leading lying on top of the lands in my Sharps rifle. I guess many here would call it 'tinned' onto the steel.
Kroil and tight patches have no visible effect on it.
It isn't visible when peering in through the muzzle or chamber, but I can see it with my borescope.

My new Foul Out III arrived a few days ago, and I tried it out yesterday.
Sure didn't go the way I imagined.

My bore was already 'clean', but I still did the brush and solvent thing described in the instructions. Then I thoroughly degreased the bore with brake cleaner, and set the barrel aside.

Then I sanded the rod (just because) and degreased it repeatedly until it stopped making black marks on the patches. Then I slipped on enough o-rings to prevent bore contact.

Still following the instructions to the letter, I filled the bore half full with Lead Out and eased the rod into position. Then I filled the bore to within an inch of the muzzle.

When I turned the unit on, the 'Cleaning' light turned on brightly. After about 90 seconds, it dimmed a little and the 'Clean' light came on dimly.
I let it run for ten minutes (as instructed) and shut down to examine the color of the Lead Out solution. The 'Cleaning' and 'Clean' lights were of about equal brightness at the time I shut down.

The fluid was still uncolored, so I degreased everything and put it back in the bore. I sanded the rod and degreased it, but I saw nothing 'coating' it from the first run.
When I applied power, the 'Cleaning' light came on (as before) but it only took thirty seconds for the 'Clean' light to start coming on.

I let it run for a half hour. By then the 'Cleaning' light was just a dim flicker, and the 'Clean' light was bright.

After swabbing the barrel out and drying it, I looked inside with my borescope.

If any leading had been removed, I couldn't tell the difference.
I also never did see anything 'coating' the rod...at the first pullout or the final one.

I understand that no current flow between the rod and barrel gives you a 'Clean' light.
Heavy current between rod and barrel (through the solution) turns on the "Cleaning' light.
And, a short results in the 'Overload" light.

I don't understand why I would see 'heavy cleaning' for a very short period, then see that begin decreasing (over a long time period) when the rod shows no evidence of a coating that would impede current flow.

I guess I would like for someone with Foul Out experience to explain the light results to me.

CM

[geargnasher]

I can confirm, but not explain why there is an initial bright "clean" light even with a clean bore. Perhaps it's microscopic metal particles floating in the solution that give brief conductivity before gravitating to the rod.

I'll also confirm that there are some kinds of "leading" that it won't touch. I don't believe that the "lead-out" solution will remove antimony or tin, either one. Was that 20:1 you were shooting in it?

Gear

[montana_charlie]

Was that 20:1 you were shooting in it?
Actually, the alloy is pure dental x-ray film. But the hardness is exactly right for 20-1, so that is what I consider it to be.

It would be a definite downer if this tool will pull lead, but leave the remainder of an alloy (tin or antimony) behind.

BTW, I didn't say that the Clean light came on first. It just started coming on much earlier than I expected.

CM

[insanelupus]

I had one of the Outer's systems and let it go down the road way cheaper than what I paid. I never was impressed with it and found the Lead Remover from Shooters Choice and their Wipe Out bore foam to be much more effective and no worry about leaving the stuff in the bore overnight. Yes it does require some scrubbing in between (Wipe Out I find works great for copper, not as good for carbon fouling, though the newest stuff might) and the Lead Remover works as advertised for light leading (no heavy lead fouling as of yet).

I was never very impressed with the Outers rig. But I know others who swear by it. Unfortuneatly I usually just swore at it.

[perotter]

Montana Charlie,

A Mini-14 stainless steel I have does about what you describe. It would take some, but not really clean it like my other rifles. I assum that it has something to do with the conductivity of the ss the barrel is made from. Never did call about it.

The Outers will remove the tin & antimony when it pulls the lead. The tin & antimony fall away from the barrel & don't deposit onto the rod.

[montana_charlie]

Montana Charlie,

A Mini-14 stainless steel I have does about what you describe.
I started an email conversation with the Outer's 'Expert'.

One of the first questions he asked was if I had a stainless barrel.
I didn't, so he asked what I was using as a degreaser.

When I said 'brake cleaner' he came back with advice that I must use Crud Cutter or Gun Scrubber...both products made by them.
I have not replied to that, as yet...

CM

[geargnasher]

CM, I use Berryman chlorinated brake cleaner, have zero problems with it on copper, in fact I'm cleaning our parts manager's .308 as I'm typing this. Did my boss's .270 last week, took four treatments with thorough bore cleaning/degreasings in between to finally get 60 years of crud out. I shoot mostly antimonial alloys in all my guns and only have leading problems with the ones still "in development" and am much more apt to grab the bronze brush wrapped tightly with bronze wool before I use the FOIII on lead alloy fouling.

If you aren't having accuracy issues, I wouldn't mess with it. Most of my gun's bores get shot until they "season" and left alone if there aren't any issues, and I think that a certain amount of microscopic leading filling pits and machine marks is usually a good thing. If you have to use a bore scope to see it and it is stable (doesn't get worse or better from shooting) it probably isn't much of a problem. I don't know if you were having any issues or not.

Gear

[montana_charlie]

I don't know if you were having any issues or not.
I have not yet decided if it is causing an accuracy problem, so the issue is a psychological one at the moment.
I have been shooting a paper patched bullet all summer, and haven't quite got it to shoot as well as I think it should...although on occaision it has done pretty well.

After each cleaning session, I would scope the bore...and have noticed a buildup of 'a whitish-colored scabby-looking wash' lying on top of the lands.

Normal (tight patch) lead removal methods don't show any trace of lead, so I have been wondering what it is...and trying various methods of trying to 'soak it' out.

Finally, I got some snowbanks to shoot into, so I had the chance to examine some fired bullets. I find that my patches have not been wrapped as far up on the ogive as they should be, and a short section of bullet nose has been making contact with the lands...all summer long.

I think that identifies the mysterious 'wash' that I have seen develop...which never existed previously.

Believing this to be leading, and apparently too thin to be affected by the tight patch method, I became interested in a non-abrasive removal program.
Non-abrasive because the bore is like a mirror, and I don't want to modify it's geometry.

I tend to believe (like you) that any good degreaser will remove oils, and that it's bureaucratic myopia to insist that only Crud Cutter and Gun Scrubber can do the job.

While I intend to make the Foul Out work for me, I may have the best luck with simply positioning the patch further forward on the bullet...and let the paper polish away the fouling.

CM

[MtGun44]

I don't bother with the foul out unless I have an extremely metal fouled barrel, like a new to
me milsurp or even an older sporting rifle. I once leaded the holy heck out of a 1937 S&W
.45 ACP (identical to the 1917s) with what turned out to be hard and undersized commercial
boolits. The foul out took it all out quickly, leaving about 1/16" of shiny crystal looking (rough) lead
on the rod, which wiped off easily with a rag.

I use acetone to degrease bbl and rod, this is critical since the water won't really wet the
metal if there is even a trace of oil or grease on either one. If the water isn't microscopically
in contact with the barrel in spots, it will not work there.

My guess is you need to use a pure solvent for degreasing, or a good detergent and water
solution to wipe them down.

Bill

[montana_charlie]

My guess is you need to use a pure solvent for degreasing,
I agree that acetone is a great solvent, and I asked the Outer's 'Expert' about it.
He maintained the company line in saying it had to be Crud Cutter or Gun Scrubber.

The Crud Cutter MSDS says the ingredients are 'secret'. The MSDS on the Gun Scrubber says it's isopropal alcohol and hexthane.

The MSDS on the brake cleaner I am using says the only thing in the can is tetrachloroethylene. I think it's the replacement for the old carbon tetrachloride.
Do you think that's pure enough for a solvent?

CM

[MtGun44]

The key is whether it leaves a surface that water will fully wet out. I have no idea if
any particular solvent will do that without testing. It may be really CLEAN, but still be
somehow not wettable by water, which will screw up the whole deal.

I'd say alcohol should work, too. How about a wipe down with a clean patch with alcohol -
try gas line antifreeze which is usually pure isopropyl alcohol or maybe just rubbing
alcohol which is isopropyl and water. This may work as a final wipe after the other
solvent does the heavy cleaning. Actually, a small amount of detergent in water as
a final wipe is probably the real hot setup in getting the water to wet the bore and rod
fully, since that is what detergents do. A drop of Dawn or similar dish detergent in
a cup of water mixed well should work.

Bill

[perotter]

I'd say alcohol should work, too. How about a wipe down with a clean patch with alcohol -
try gas line antifreeze which is usually pure isopropyl alcohol or maybe just rubbing
alcohol which is isopropyl and water.
Bill

I use pure isopropyl from the drug store. FWIW, I use the Outers even on guns that I buy new. I don't have the time to fool around on non productive tasks.

[bhn22]

I have the older Foul-Out II, and it still works perfectly. Perhaps the best example of what it can do was an old 686 S&W I bought several years ago. It had the worst barrel leading I've ever seen. The bore looked immaculate when I bought it, the rifling perhaps a bit worn. It turned out to be so badly leaded that It required 3 cycles. There was so much lead in the bore that the buildup on the rod contacted the barrel twice, requiring a change of solvent and a patch. By the end of the third cycle, it was finally clean. This was the worst leading I've ever seen. A few days later I used it to remove the copper from a Super Blackhawk that had only been cleaned with Hoppes since it was new, and it way 20 yrs old at the time. That took a while.

[montana_charlie]

Okay, I have heard your advice on the bore cleaners. I will try some alcohol to see if it makes a difference.

Now (to those of you who can) tell me some technical stuff...

When I set this Foul Out III to work, the 'cleaning' light comes on.
That signifies that there is some amount (an acceptable amount) of current flowing between the barrel and the rod.
If the current was not acceptable (too high) the 'overload' light would illuminate.

When the barrel has been de-leaded, the 'clean' light should come on.
That light indicates that there is no current flow between the barrel and the rod.
I can't say I understand this final indication.

The Lead Out solution is the electrolyte which carries current between the barrel and rod.
If it was distilled water it would not carry current. But, because it has been 'contaminated' with additives, it does allow current flow. One of those additives is a form of lead, so that prompts lead from the bore to leave that surface and migrate to the rod.

Yet you are to understand that the barrel is 'clean' when current flow stops...as that is what causes the 'clean' light to come on.

The voltage is still applied (I think - I have not tested that yet).
The solution is still present, and apparently still quite clean.
So, what stops the current?

Does coating the rod with lead make it nonconductive to electricity?

I am not getting the cleaning I expected, and the light sequence has been rather strange (to me). I get a 'clean' light while the fouling is still in the barrel...and there is nothing on the rod.
I am hoping that with a better understanding of how this thing works I can better interpret the indications I am getting...and figure out what is out of kilter.

CM

[perotter]

So, what stops the current?

Does coating the rod with lead make it nonconductive to electricity?


CM

The control stops the current. It "reads" the draw of electricity. When it drops to a certain level, it shuts the current off to the wires that run to the gun.

It is possible that your control is faulty.

FWIW, I have used a car battery charger with Foul Out 2 fluid. That works.

[imashooter2]

I have a II not a III, but the best degreaser I've found is 90% isopropyl alcohol. I scuff the rod down with a bit of green Scotchbrite pad before every use. Then an alcohol patch down the bore, remove and wipe off the rubber plug and rod with the same patch. Never a problem using this method.

[montana_charlie]

The control stops the current. It "reads" the draw of electricity. When it drops to a certain level, it shuts the current off to the wires that run to the gun.
Did you read my earlier posts? The light action I have been getting does not show an on/off situation. Instead, the Cleaning light grows ever dimmer (over an extended period) while the Clean light starts out dim and grows brighter.

I believe that indicates a changing current flow...which is decreasing.


It is possible that your control is faulty.
Anything is possible, but this unit is brand new.
The power supply produces fully five volts AC, as specified...and the no load output from the control unit is the expected .3 volts DC.


FWIW, I have used a car battery charger with Foul Out 2 fluid. That works.
I have done a lot of reading on the home made units over thr past three years. Never built one because I didn't need one.

When it came to the nitty gritty, all of those articles, which cautioned about too much power, spooked me into going with a commercially engineered product.

One of those articles is one which advocates use of homade units...even provides information for the construction and how to make the solutions. But it also explains why Outer's kept the voltage and current so low...and how raising those CAN cause loss of barrel steel.
http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm

My barrel is too good to risk it's finish to an uncontrolled battery charger...so I am being cautious.

CM

[MtGun44]

How about the barrel is actually clean and the white stuff is some paper residue. Many
papers use kaolin as a whitener and to hold ink. Kaolin is a white, ultrafine clay (mined near
my old house in FL) also used in bone china and spark plug insulators.

Maybe kaolin from the paper? or something similar.

Dig out an old milsurp or other 'questionably cleaned' barrel and try the Foul Out on it to
see how it reacts.

Bill

[montana_charlie]

Dig out an old milsurp or other 'questionably cleaned' barrel and try the Foul Out on it to
see how it reacts.
I don't have any milsurps, or questionable barrels, although I may be able to find one with a little copper in it.

If what I am seeing in the bore is a residue from the paper, I would have to admit to being amazed.

CM

[MtGun44]

It seems to act like there is no metal to plate off, so I was thinking that maybe we
should consider the possibility.

Try the machine on a coppery barrel and see if it behaves as expected, just as a test of the
machine.

Good luck.

Bill

[perotter]

Did you read my earlier posts? The light action I have been getting does not show an on/off situation. Instead, the Cleaning light grows ever dimmer (over an extended period) while the Clean light starts out dim and grows brighter.

I believe that indicates a changing current flow...which is decreasing.


CM

Yes I read it. I think(quite sure) that the lights growing dim/bright is just for the human interface. When people see a instant change is something like this, people tend to think there is problem. Loose connection, blown fuse, etc. This is a consumer grade product/market, not a industrial grade product, & designed that way.

[perotter]

It seems to act like there is no metal to plate off, so I was thinking that maybe we
should consider the possibility.

Try the machine on a coppery barrel and see if it behaves as expected, just as a test of the
machine.

Good luck.

Bill

Or put some lead into the barrel. Or a bullet & lead solution into a cup to test with.

[montana_charlie]

It seems to act like there is no metal to plate off, so I was thinking that maybe we
should consider the possibility.

Try the machine on a coppery barrel and see if it behaves as expected, just as a test of the
machine.
Or put some lead into the barrel. Or a bullet & lead solution into a cup to test with.

That is an interesting pair of suggestions.
I may have a sprue plate (or something) with lead stuck on it.
A small experiment uses only a small amount of solution...

CM

[perotter]

One other thought & assuming that this is new Sharps rifle. It is possible to "blue" stainless steel. Have you verified with the maker what steel the barrel is made of?

Just thinking that if I made barrels for something like this, that is what I'd do. Sure as rain, someone would use blackpowder & not really clean it. And most wouldn't want a "shiny" Sharps.

[montana_charlie]

One other thought & assuming that this is new Sharps rifle...
It is not a new rifle. It was 'second hand' when I bought it in 2005.
It is also not stainless steel.

The barrel condition that has me concerned is 'new'.

CM

[Charlie Sometimes]

There is a website somewhere that tells you how to build a nice "foul-out " device from scratch. I will see if I can locate it in my Favorites and post the link.

Found where I save it, but couldn't get the links to work- maybe too old.
Anyway, here is the info I saved- pasted from my computer. Mine has pictures and schematics, they don't show below.
I might try to post it on Phtobucket later, and then post a link to it that way.



Disclaimer: I am not a professional gunsmith, just a shooting enthusiast and hobbyist, as well as a tinkerer. If you are unsure about any of the following procedures, please defer to a qualified gunsmith. Please thoroughly read, and fully understand these instructions before proceeding. Where ever possible I used the names for parts as found in the owner’s manual. For polishing I use wet/dry 400, then 600 grit emery paper wetted with Hoppe’s gun oil. To remove metal I use a jeweler’s file, then polish as above. For stoning I use a hard Arkansas or ceramic stone. To polish pivot pins I use oiled 600 grit emery paper, or oiled automotive crocus cloth. Work slowly and carefully and check functioning frequently. It’s always easy to remove a little more metal, but adding metal is very difficult. Some of these procedures require special tools, and only work when using those tools.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Building an Electrolysis Copper Cleaner
Rby oy Seifert

I’ve been a gun enthusiast all my life. With the advent of the Internet, you can find all types of information for all types of interests. While surfing the web I stumbled upon Fr. Frog’s excellent web site, specifically his Homemade Firearms Cleaners and Lubricants page http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog2/homemade.htm. This project is based on his homemade electronic copper fouling remover.

You need to decide just how fancy you want your unit to be. Just as in buying a car, the more options you add, the more money you’ll spend! I purchased all the parts I needed at Radio Shack. I have included parts lists for each of the following circuits at the end of this article. Also, each schematic contains the Radio Shack part numbers.

Circuit 1: "Plain Jane" Version

Circuit 1 is the “plain Jane” version. It really is nothing more than a flashlight in a box. This circuit runs at about 100ma and will do the job quite nicely. The lamp is used as a short indicator. If the lamp glows brightly then your rod is touching the barrel and causing a short. In normal operation, the lamp should glow dimly, or not at all. This plan has the battery holder inside the box, so you will need the larger box (270-1806 6” x 4” x 2”).

Circuit 2: Current Adjust and Ammeter Connection

In circuit 2 I’ve added a rheostat to adjust current, and a means to measure the current. This is important especially if you use an external power supply. You should use no more than 200 milliamps (ma). The first time I used my box with just the batteries I could adjust the current from 25ma to 100ma, more than enough to do the job. The switch is used to bypass the ammeter connection. An ammeter must be connected in series with the circuit. If you connect the ammeter, the switch can be in either position for the circuit to work, but must be in the on position (contacts open) for the ammeter to function. (See my notes on installing the DPDT switch) If you don’t connect the ammeter, the switch must be off (contacts closed) for the circuit to work. If you connect the ammeter, set the rheostat to the minimum position. If the rod is touching the barrel causing a short you could damage your ammeter. Same comment about putting the battery holder inside the box.

Circuit 3: External Power w/Current Adjust and Ammeter Connection

The DC power jack (274-1583) allows you to connect an external 3 volt power supply. This jack has an internal switch to disconnect the battery if the power supply is connected. Pay attention to how this jack is connected. Your power supply must have a negative tip; i.e. tip polarity must be negative. This switched power connector is used if the battery holder is inside the box.

Circuit 4: External Power

The batteries in this circuit are not inside the box, so the smaller box is used. Instead, a power plug is connected to the 2 ‘D’ battery holder, which is then connected to the power jack to provide power. When connecting the power plug to the battery holder, connect the black (negative) wire to the pin, and the red (positive) wire to the shell. You can substitute the power jack for the internal batteries in any of the above circuits. Instead of batteries you can use a 3-volt AC/DC power supply. This will prevent you having to replace batteries if you use your unit frequently.

Circuit 5: The “Deluxe” Version w/Ammeter

I actually built circuit 2, improved it to circuit 3, then settled on the deluxe version. Radio Shack sells a panel meter graduated in volts up to a maximum of 15. Circuit 5 uses this meter in series with two 10-ohm resistors, and a 0.47-ohm resistor. Do not install the 15K-ohm resistor that comes with the meter. This is used for measuring volts; we are measuring milliamps. I left the switch in the circuit so I could disconnect the ammeter. (Actually the switch shorts across the ammeter so it effectively reads 0ma.) Remember, now that you have an ammeter connected all the time, either start with the rheostat in the minimum position, or the switch off before you connect power in case the rod is shorted to the barrel. If you don’t and you do have a short you could damage your meter.

Besides the electrical parts, you will also need:

Rubber stoppers (2)
White vinegar 1 part (1 qt)
Ammonia 1 part (1 qt)
Distilled water 2 parts (1 gal)
1/8”x 36” stainless steel TIG welding rod (2)
8 x 3/8” sheet metal screws (2)

I purchased the rubber stoppers and sheet metal screws at my local hardware store, the chemicals from Wal-Mart, and the TIG welding rods from a local welding supply house in town. However, there are plenty of welding suppliers on the web if you can’t find a local supplier. To mix your solution, pour out half of the distilled water, then replace with the vinegar and ammonia.

As mentioned before, I started with circuit 2, then improved it to circuit 3. I drilled all the mounting holes in the plastic box and mounted all the hardware before wiring the circuit. The box comes with both a plastic and aluminum cover; I used the plastic because it’s much easier to drill. I installed the banana jacks (274-725) on one end, and the 2 D battery holder (270-386) inside the box on the opposite end. I installed the DC power jack (274-1583) on the side of the box away from the battery holder, and all other components on the top also away from the battery holder.

The battery holder takes up about ½ of the inside volume of the box, which is why I had to install all components in/around the open half. (I had to remove the battery holder when I installed the panel meter.) When installing the dual chassis mount jack (274-718) be sure the holes for the test leads are oriented correctly. After I assembled my box I found I had rotated one of the posts 90degrees which made connecting the test leads for my ammeter difficult. After installing all the hardware you can solder the connections.

The switch is actually a double-pole, double-throw (DPDT) switch. The rocker is imprinted with a ‘1’ and ‘0’ to indicate on and off. I wanted this to indicate if the meter was connected (1) or not (0), but if you note the schematic, the meter works when the switch is open. I connected the switch so when it is in the ‘0’ position it shorts across the meter (contacts closed), and in the ‘1’ position the contacts are open.

If you wish to install the meter, you can change the meter face to read 0 – 200ma. Here is the template, which you can print on self-adhesive label paper. Carefully remove the clear plastic cover from the meter. It pops off of the meter by loosening the barbed catches from the rear. Position the new face over the original and press in place. Replace the cover and install the meter in the unit.

Prepare the test leads by unscrewing the plastic probe body and snipping off the tips. Connect the test leads to the corresponding colored alligator claw clips. Be sure to slip the insulator on the wire before connecting the clips. You can save some money by purchasing test probe wire and connecting directly to the circuit through a hole in the side of the box. Connect the clips to the other end of the wires.

I purchased two of the smallest rubber stoppers I could find at my local hardware store. I drilled a 3/16” hole halfway through the first stopper from the small end. This is used to plug the chamber and hold the stainless steel rod. I drilled a 3/16” hole completely through the second stopper, then mounted it on a 1/4” drill bit and chucked it in my drill. With my drill running, I held the narrow end of that stopper against my running belt sander and narrowed the end until it would fit most caliber barrels.

My test gun was my S&W 629 .44 magnum Trail Boss. It has a 3 1/2” Magna-Ported barrel, but after my last cleaning, I noticed quite a bit of copper fouling. First I thoroughly degreased and dried the barrel as instructed on Fr. Frog’s web site. I chucked the revolver in my gun vise with the muzzle up. I cut about 12” of stainless steel welding rod and inserted it through the barrel into the chamber stopper (the one with the hole drilled only halfway through). I then firmly pressed the stopper into the chamber. I then took two pieces of duct tape to cover the Magna-Ports. I used the de-soldering bulb to squirt the ammonia/vinegar solution into the barrel. I then slipped the muzzle stopper over the rod until it touched the muzzle, thereby centering the rod in the barrel.

With this first test I decided to use just the batteries. I connected my test leads to the correctly colored jacks on the end of the box, then connected the red clip to the revolver frame, and the black clip to the rod and left it connected for 45 minutes. I adjusted the rheostat for maximum current of 100ma. After I removed the clips, drained the barrel, and removed the rod I found the rod was coated with a dark green/black residue, and the barrel was bright, shiny clean. Obviously my little homemade cleaner worked. The rod can be cleaned with fine steel wool and can be used over and over again.

My second test was with a 1911 barrel that I have been using for 3-gun competition with copper jacketed ball ammo. This time I used the AC/DC power supply. Using this supply I could adjust the current from 50ma to 170ma. I adjusted the current for 100ma and left the circuit connected for 45 minutes. As before, the rod was coated with a dark green/black residue, but the barrel was clean.

You can use this product with the commercial cleaning solutions used with these types of electric cleaning units, but remember because the homemade unit runs at a higher current, you only need to let it run for 45 minutes or so.

Parts Lists-

Circuit 1

270-1806
Project box 6” x 4” x 2”

270-386
2 D-cell battery holder

272-356
Lamp Base

272-1132
2.47 volt lamp for above base

274-725
Banana jacks (for leads to gun)

278-704
Test leads

270-349
Claw clips

278-1218
22 gauge stranded hookup wire

64-2086
De-soldering bulb (used as a dropper)


Circuit 2

270-1806
Project box 6” x 4” x 2”

270-386
2 D-cell battery holder

272-356
Lamp Base

272-1132
2.47 volt lamp for above base

271-265
25 ohm rheostat

274-416
Knob for rheostat

274-725
Banana jacks (for leads to gun)

274-718
Dual chassis-mount jack (for ammeter connection)

278-704
Test leads

270-349
Claw clips

275-695
DPDT rocker switch

278-1218
22 gauge stranded hookup wire

64-2086
De-soldering bulb (used as a dropper)


Circuit 3

270-1806
Project box 6” x 4” x 2”

270-386
2 D-cell battery holder

272-356
Lamp Base

272-1132
2.47 volt lamp for above base

271-265
25 ohm rheostat

274-416
Knob for rheostat

274-725
Banana jacks (for leads to gun)

274-718
Dual chassis-mount jack (for ammeter connection)

278-704
Test leads

270-349
Claw clips

275-695
DPDT rocker switch

274-1573
DC Power Plug, 5.5 x 2.5mm

274-1583
DC panel jack with switch 5.5 x 2.5mm

278-1218
22 gauge stranded hookup wire

64-2086
De-soldering bulb (used as a dropper)

273-1755
Optional 3v 500ma AC – DC power supply ( use tip ‘N’ 5.5 x 2.5mm)


Circuit 4

270-1805
Project box 6” x 3” x 2”

270-386
2 D-cell battery holder

272-356
Lamp Base

272-1132
2.47 volt lamp for above base

271-265
25 ohm rheostat

274-416
Knob for rheostat

274-725
Banana jacks (for leads to gun)

274-718
Dual chassis-mount jack (for ammeter connection)

278-704
Test leads

270-349
Claw clips

275-695
DPDT rocker switch

274-1573
DC Power Plug, 5.5 x 2.5mm

274-1576
DC panel jack 5.5 x 2.5mm

278-1218
22 gauge stranded hookup wire

64-2086
De-soldering bulb (used as a dropper)

273-1755
Optional 3v 500ma AC – DC power supply ( use tip ‘N’ 5.5 x 2.5mm)


Circuit 5

270-1805
Project box 6” x 3” x 2”

270-386
2 D-cell battery holder

272-356
Lamp Base

272-1132
2.47 volt lamp for above base

271-265
25 ohm rheostat

274-416
Knob for rheostat

274-725
Banana jacks (for leads to gun)

278-704
Test leads

270-349
Claw clips

275-695
DPDT rocker switch

274-1573
DC Power Plug, 5.5 x 2.5mm

274-1576
DC panel jack 5.5 x 2.5mm

22-410
Panel meter

271-1101
10 ohm, 1/2 watt resistors

271-130
0.47 ohm, 5 watt resistor

278-1218
22 gauge stranded hookup wire

64-2086
De-soldering bulb (used as a dropper)

273-1755
Optional 3v 500ma AC – DC power supply ( use tip ‘N’ 5.5 x 2.5mm)

[montana_charlie]

There is a website somewhere that tells you how to build a nice "foul-out " device from scratch.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1098929&postcount=42

CM

[Nose Dive]

My power supply is an old 6v deer feeder battery trickle charger.... give my milsurps two sessions at about 15 minutes each with good ole BO PEEP ammonia... scrubbing in between sessions...always come our clean and shiny.... do a HOPPES cleaning affter all is done...spray with KRIOL... swap till clean and dry...never an issue.

[HangFireW8]

Came upon this thread a little late, but wanted to save folks some money if they are getting into a FO or homebrew.

I got my FO rods for larger, shorter, and longer barrels here:

http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=7&step=2&top_cat=1

As you can see, you can order by the foot. 0.25" is perfect for 7mm's and 30 bores. .3125 is perfect for 8mm .323"+ bores. They don't leave much room for the electrolyte, which is a good thing, less waste, but you may end up changing the fluid more often. That's OK. I think the cleaning goes faster with less distance and more fluid changes.

Also handling a one foot 0.375" rod is a lot handier for cleaning 44's and 45's than the skinny little Outer's rod. A four foot rod is just the ticket for those old BPCR rifles.

Instead of expensive little "O" rings, I use electrical tape. Wrap twice and then trim most of it off with an Exacto, leave little more than the O ring in width. Don't put it on so thick that you get an hydraulic seal.

-HF

[dromia]

Did you ever get anywhere with this MC?

I see Outers have discontinued Foul Out.

[Moonie]

holy zombies batman, I built a foul-out that runs off of a 2 D-cell flashlight, it works well.