Delrin Bullets

[ab_bentley]

Well Here's to the first post, I have been directed to you, the masters of the cast per se'.

I have been fascinated by lightweight self defense bullets for a while now and would have tried this if I had the oppertunity.

My question is has anyone on here played with making lightweight Delrin bullets? I have had a few people hint that they were using them in 44Mag with Bullseye charge and hitting 2500FPS + with light charges. I know Speer and a few other comapanies make "Practice" bullets that are undersized and not ment to be shot with powder behind them. I am talking about true .358" or any other sized bullets. Just trying to get a feel of the area. ADam

[waksupi]

I'm not sure about delrin, but do a search on gluelits. You will find some interesting reading.

Welcome aboard!

[Multigunner]

Some ultra lightweight bullets were made for the 7.62X39 for use by guards in government office buildings and airports.
The ammunition was powerful enough to cycle an AKM but would not penetrate substantial walls and doors.

IIRC the bullet consisted of a aluminum jacket filled with an expoxy resin.

A similar , in concept but not in construction, 7.62X51 short range target practice round was made using an injection molded plastic case with bullet cast as part of the case. When fired the bullet broke free of the casing. These had a metal case head for extraction, and to hold the primer.
It was said these had the striking power of a .357 pistol round at close range, and could penetrate auto body steel at close range, but lost velocity very quikly and were non lethal or less than lethal beyond (IIRC) fifty yards.

[Doc Highwall]

About 10-15 years ago some body made defence rounds for revolver like 38spl that shot a plastic bullet and reached velocities IIRC 2150 fps out of a 2-1/2" barrel. They showed pictures of them after they shot a ribcage and the destruction they caused and the plastic bullets would only travel 100 yards before falling to the ground. The bullets only weighed about IIRC 25-30 grains.

[exile]

John Ross's hero did it in 'Unintended Consequences'. Don't know if that was just fiction or if the author had really done it himself.

exile

[Three44s]

Exile beat me to it!

As I read down this thread I was thinking that AB Bentley musta read Unintended Consequences!!

A big welcome AB Bentley! (Flattering will go far around here!!!)

Sorry, on your question ...... I don't beans but I'm not the fellow your sender was thinking about ....... obviously ........

Three 44s

[Grapeshot]

Nylon Rods can be cut to length and swaged to the apprpriate shape and diameter to make a L/W high Velocity round that won't penatrate walls or doors and loose velocity real fast past 50 yards.

You can also cast bullets from zink. Cutting the spru will be a problem, but zink bullets pushed real fast out of revolvers make a real mess of tissue. I remember an article about zink bullets published sometime in the 70's that dealt with the bullet having a 90 degree pointed nose. That's a 45 degree slope from the body of the slug.

[ab_bentley]

John Ross is the main inspiration, after reading it for the 3rd time and really researching the idea I decided to to try it. I have read about the Gluelits and am in the process of digging out the molds. I alos ordered a couple feet of .5" Delrin rod to turn down to the correct diameter. Another item of thought was if you needed the bullets to carry weight, you could drill a hole and place shot, or buckshot (hot lead will melt it) and glue it over with Super Glue. ADam

[fryboy]

in one of the cartridges of the world ( IIRC ) frank barnes mentioned that the fastest a bullet had ever been sent flying was a nylon projectile , much akin to delrin i'm sure , not sure of all the particulars however and especially what powder would be best , but i'll curiously be watching this thread !

[tek4260]

About 10-15 years ago some body made defence rounds for revolver like 38spl that shot a plastic bullet and reached velocities IIRC 2150 fps out of a 2-1/2" barrel. They showed pictures of them after they shot a ribcage and the destruction they caused and the plastic bullets would only travel 100 yards before falling to the ground. The bullets only weighed about IIRC 25-30 grains.



That was the guy who marketed the Second Chance Body Armor. You know, the guy who shot himself in the chest with a 44 regularly to show that the armor worked at demonstrations. I think they were called Thunderzaps to be used in airlines and such in case of terrorist attacks. Idea never caught on. I believe they were made of PVC and had a hollow point. Actually they looked like a HBWC loaded backwards.

[Mack Heath]

John Ross's hero did it in 'Unintended Consequences'. Don't know if that was just fiction or if the author had really done it himself.

exile

After reading UC, I emailed Ross and he had done it himself. Bought a screw machine to crank them out of nylon, IIRC.

[NoZombies]

The one thing I'd worry about would be plastic fouling. Derlin is self lubricating as a bushing, not sure how it'd do at velocities that might melt it. Since you're turning them anyways, maybe consider turning in lube grooves and run some speed green on 'em?

It'd be a neat project for sure, I look forward to seeing your results!

[ab_bentley]

my one other hang up is this, what type of nose should give these? I was thinking just a 45* to point, Round Nose, and hollow point, is there anything else I should consider? Adam

[cajun shooter]

tek4260, I attended a police defensive tactics seminar in Biloxi around 1980. Two guys from Second Chance were there with a demo presentation. One of them put on a level 3 vest with a ceramic insert over the heart area. His buddy then shot him with at least 5 rounds in center mass from a distance of about 6-7 ft. I was in shock as everyone else as each round would cause him to move rearward some what on impact. He was bruised but no other injuries. A fellow police officer was there and asked his wife for a vest at Christmas. She gave him the vest and one day at home he was sitting in his chair at home and decided to try it out. He forgot that the vest the demo used had the insert and his didn't. His wife found him dead in his chair. I saw the crime lab photo's. His wife sued second Chance and they lost a huge settlement in court. The jury said that with the demo and also the owner doing it made the officer feel safe and they were wrong for doing the demo's.

[ab_bentley]

Needless to say I won't be shooting myself with or without plates in my vest. Adam

[tek4260]

I saw the Second Chance video that the local police supply had. It seemed pretty old, but was a fun watch. It also had scenarios where the vest failed. I remember one failure was a center hit from a 22 Mag rifle at something like 20 yards. Hard to believe that a 22 mag would punch thru.

[NoZombies]

As for the nose shape, I'd probably go for a RF. Easy to load, and your range isn't gonna be much with these no matter the nose shape.

What are you thinking about using 'em for?

As for the bullet proof vest stuff, a small diameter solid is the most likely thing to defeat a vest. The Russians made a pistol and cartridge specifically for that back in the cold war days. if I recall, it was only slightly faster than a .22 LR, but had a steel core bullet. Did the number on kevlar.

[ab_bentley]

I will be shooting Zombies with them :)


In all reality I will load them for Animal defense. Here in California (just two weeks ago) a man shot and killed a Mt. Lion in an Orange grove in self defense I beleive, needless to say he is now face a Felony conviction and 1 year in prison, not jail. Also I play around with these oddities for fun more than anything else. Adam

[NoZombies]

:) Zombies... They're why I make my "Zombie stoppers" which are the light weight frangible bullets that travel at high velocity...

Animal defense at close range would be a pretty good use of these I'd bet. I'm not sure I'd want to bet my life on 'em though, but I'm sure you'll do lots of testing to see how they do before you rely on 'em.

That's quite a story about the guy who'll probably see prison time for defending himself. It's a sad day when the world can't trust us to make good decisions on our own. No doubt the law was put in place in order to protect the animals from unscrupulous people saying they where "defending themselves" when they where poaching. But rather than believe most people wouldn't poach, they decide to say that defending yourself is a crime!

What, you mean guns can be fun? ;)

[hornsurgeon]

i don't think delrin is a good material for this. first, it is brittle, nor pliable. second, delrin is abrasive. it machines well, but if you cut it at too fast of speed on a lathe it will very quickly dull a high speed steel cutter. third, it may prove to be too hard to engage the rifiling without issues. you would be faced with 2 choices. either make them fit the grooves which may raise pressures too high, or make the fit the lands which will cause blowby. i think nylon may be a better choice, or pehaps teflon.

[ab_bentley]

Here is one guy who made some last night: Delrin and a 45cal

Test results. Gun was my. 45 ACP Colt. After playing around with a few powder weights, I settled on 6 grains of Clays. That is hotter than any load published, but the delrin bullet is lighter than any published. Long story short, point blank that load would go thru a pine 2x4. Sounds good, right? Wait... with a single layer of carpet in front, the bullet would often only go as deep as the base of the bullet. (Carpet did not have padded backing) At about 10 feet, penetration varied greatly. Many times it would got thru the carpet and bounce off the pine stud. Even at point blank range, nothing but the first layer of plywood behind the stud was damaged, and then nothing more than a slight dent. The biggest surprise to me.... yes, I was surprised it went thru the stud yet at 10 feet it was totally stopped, but to me the shock was after making a dozen bullets, for all those shots I only used TWO. Each bullet was easily used again! The bullets I turned were very much more pointed than any. 45 bullet commonly available. Also, the total lack of recoil! My commander slide never went back any farther than enough to bring the hammer to half-cock.

Steven

[9.3X62AL]

In all reality I will load them for Animal defense. Here in California (just two weeks ago) a man shot and killed a Mt. Lion in an Orange grove in self defense I beleive, needless to say he is now face a Felony conviction and 1 year in prison, not jail. Also I play around with these oddities for fun more than anything else. Adam

Adam, there must be more to the story if a felony offense was charged. The only Fish & Game Code violations in California that are prima facie felonies are those dealing with bear parts sale and trafficking. Whacking a mountain lion--under any circumstances--is never more than a misdemeanor. SOMETHING is being left out or added to, and given the quality of journalism these days--no surprise there. I would be keenly interested in any details you might have. PM would be fine.

[JIMinPHX]

The guys that do quick shot competitions shoot wax boolits that are just pushed by a 209 primer. It's certainly not a defensive load, but it's the best example of a super low weight boolit that I can think of.

Federal used to make a blue "nyclad" bullet for defensive purposes. It had a soft lead core with a heavy nylon jacket. They expanded quite a bit when they hit something. They were also very clean to shoot. Powder residue was all you had to worry about removing after shooting them. Unfortunately, they were rather expensive & I haven't seen them on store shelves for more than 10 years.

Plastic sabots are commonly used in black powder rifles these days. They are also loaded in Remington Accelerator rounds in calibers like .30-30 & .308. I think that I remember seeing someone that offered a hollow tube bullet in a plastic sabot a few years ago too. Plastic will take the heat & pressure of a modern cartridge. I'm just not sure what plastic that is. Some plastics generate very high temperatures from friction & produce enough heat to ruin the temper of steels. Those will need to be avoided. I'm also not sure what the exterior ballistics will look like when using a solid plastic projectile.

It's an interesting concept. I'll look forward to hearing how you make out with that.

[exile]

What about cutting lube grooves in them like a Lee tumble lube boolit and lubing with a mixture of Lee liquid Alox, Johnson's Paste Wax and mineral spirits? Just a thought.

exile

[ab_bentley]

The Nyclad idea was another one I had, if I wanted or needed to add weight drill out the front and drop in a piece or two of buckshot and glue it in. I would imagine it would end up a similar item. I had also thought about using a 40gr VMAX (.224 cal) in liue of the buckshot. All in due time, I bought the Delrin yesterday about 10' of it so next week I should have some neat stuff out. Adam

[Jeff H]

....I think that I remember seeing someone that offered a hollow tube bullet in a plastic sabot a few years ago too.......

That may have been a PMC round.
It does only seem like a "few," but when I recalled where I first saw them and made the connection with where I was at the time, it was a while back - 20, 25 years ago.

[Johnch]

That may have bee a PMC round.
It does only seem like a "few," but when I recalled where I first saw them and made the connection with where I was at the time, it was a while back - 20, 25 years ago.


I have a few of those
A all copper aloy or brass tube ( no base ) with a sharp OD champher
With a plastic base wad that falls off after fireing

Sort of like a piece of copper tubing

I have 2 or 3 in 44 Spec and part of a box in 38 Spec

I belive the 38 Spec was 66 or 68 Gr

I know when I fired the 38's out of my 60 they started to tumble after 50 - 60 feet

Very little recoil
But ungodly loud

Some claimed the sharp champher would defeat soft body armor
And that was why PMC droped them
But I have my doughts

John

[firefly1957]

I think it was in the 80's I read a article on nylon bullets in 38 special they were getting 3000f/s at the muzzle and they slowed fast to reduce the chance of a miss killing someone. The BIG problem was they would go though the then current "bullet proof vests" law enforcement had available. The other bullets mentioned above had a hole all the way though and would drop to the ground by 100yds.
I have some 1918 45 acp military cartridges with zinc bullets (and chlorate primers) I have never heard anything on how they shot or if they were good man stoppers.

[thehouseproduct]

I have a few of those
A all copper aloy or brass tube ( no base ) with a sharp OD champher
With a plastic base wad that falls off after fireing

Sort of like a piece of copper tubing

I have 2 or 3 in 44 Spec and part of a box in 38 Spec

I belive the 38 Spec was 66 or 68 Gr

I know when I fired the 38's out of my 60 they started to tumble after 50 - 60 feet

Very little recoil
But ungodly loud

Some claimed the sharp champher would defeat soft body armor
And that was why PMC droped them
But I have my doughts

John

Any pictures?

[dla]

Here is one guy who made some last night: Delrin and a 45cal

Test results. Gun was my. 45 ACP Colt. After playing around with a few powder weights, I settled on 6 grains of Clays. That is hotter than any load published, but the delrin bullet is lighter than any published. Long story short, point blank that load would go thru a pine 2x4. Sounds good, right? Wait... with a single layer of carpet in front, the bullet would often only go as deep as the base of the bullet. (Carpet did not have padded backing) At about 10 feet, penetration varied greatly. Many times it would got thru the carpet and bounce off the pine stud. Even at point blank range, nothing but the first layer of plywood behind the stud was damaged, and then nothing more than a slight dent. The biggest surprise to me.... yes, I was surprised it went thru the stud yet at 10 feet it was totally stopped, but to me the shock was after making a dozen bullets, for all those shots I only used TWO. Each bullet was easily used again! The bullets I turned were very much more pointed than any. 45 bullet commonly available. Also, the total lack of recoil! My commander slide never went back any farther than enough to bring the hammer to half-cock.

Steven

Good data. Thanks for posting the results! It would be great if you could weigh them and run them over a Chrony.

[John Ross]

John Ross's hero did it in 'Unintended Consequences'. Don't know if that was just fiction or if the author had really done it himself.

exile

Yes. Got the idea from Richard Davis and his Thunderzap .38 Special loads that went 2800 out of a J-frame. He used Teflon (lighter) and a full wadcutter hollow point to make a round that WOULDN'T penetrate his own vests.

I used a guy that had access to a Swissomatic and had him knock out some Keith bullets out of 1/2" bar nylon for my 44s. Velocity was 3650 out of 6 1/2" 29s. I used them to shoot aerial targets when I wasn't at my rock quarry.

The lack of recoil started screwing up my speed shooting with full loads so I stopped using them. At ten feet they'd punch a door lock out of a junk car like nobody's business. Grapefruit-sized wounds in hogs. Shredded Level IIA vests.

[mroliver77]

Oh no, I have a lathe now! ;) I was just reading about aluminum bullets and that made me think about Henry Bowman. I had some chunks of nylon around here somewhere. Hmmm, corian?
Jay

[bearcove]

Cast with pewter or straight tin.

[HammerMTB]

When I saw this thread I remembered a couple loads a buddy gave me a while back. He had a couple dozen. I got them so I could chrono them and I wanted to see what kind of penetration they might have.
I stopped when I found they would not chamber in my .44
I haven't pursued it further, but when I picked them up this time I realized a couple things. First, they are reloads. They have different headstamps. second, the projectiles appear to be homemade. I can see on the end where the wadcutter was parted off in a lathe.
I'm gonna havta follow this further and see what I can discover. I can see where the right kind of treatment might let the projectiles be used over.
And I gotta find a better term for them than projectiles.
Nylits?
Noolits?
Del-rits?
:bigsmyl2:
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w15/HammerMTB/Guns/DSCN3514.jpg

[appleseedgunsmith]

I recently made some HP bullets for my charter bulldog .44 spl from nylon rod. Weight was 21 grs. And load was 14 grs. Of bluedot, simply because that's what I had. Velocity was 1250 fps and I shot them at 12 inch dia watermelons. They didn't exit but split the melons quite spectacularly and symmetrically. The nylon hp expanded to .525" I believe with adequate bullseye loads, pushing these to 2500fps+ would allow them to expand like lead hp's to maybe .750" the nylon holds up well under heat and pressure. Machine marks are still visible all over the bullets.

[appleseedgunsmith]

pics of the results

[Chicken Thief]

The original THV

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/THV.htm

[thehouseproduct]

This is in the same vein. I'd be curious to screw around with Nylon or Al bullets. 357 and or 300 Whisper would be the guns for me to try.

http://lehighbullets.com/products.asp?cat=32

[MtGun44]

I saw some of the brass THV bullets in SA about 6 yrs ago. They were advertised as
'capable of penetrating a bulletproof vest' - so would be illegal here. Very odd looking.

Bill

[Hammerhead]

Nylon Rods can be cut to length and swaged to the apprpriate shape and diameter to make a L/W high Velocity round that won't penatrate walls or doors and loose velocity real fast past 50 yards.
I find it hard to believe that nylon could be swaged into a bullet shape and not spring back at least half way to it's original shape and/or crack.
Processing (melting) Delrin releases some seriously nasty vapors. It's like chopping onions time 1,000. Best avoided.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have machined about 2 tons of Delrin in my shop over the years.

For this application I would have to say it would work about as well as anything you could actually afford.

You can't swage nylon! period. You can mould it but you can't swage it.

Teflon is too soft, although at slow speeds it would probably work alright.

Delrin is no more abrasive than any other soft plastic. You don't use Hi-speed tools on this stuff because the geometry is not right. You use carbide inserts and one of them will last a life time. Been doing it for 30 years.

I have been looking at getting into brass bullet manufacture for my shop for along time.

Making bullets out of delrin would be fun work, How many do you want? They will cost money, probably in the .25 -.35 cent range each, and the minimum quantity would be about 500. It has to be worth while or nobody will waste their time doing it.

I will design the bullet and there won't be a different one for every customer. There would be different sizes but not a bunch of different shapes. it is pointless.

As far as design goes a roundnose flatpoint is probably the hot ticket. Dimensions similar to a lead bullet of the corresponding caliber. Out of a pistol they would probably be just fine with only the primer. With 1 gr or 2 of Bullseye or ?, they would probably move out of a rifle with enough poop to take down varmints out to 50yds.

I see no need for lube, however a small amount of anything greasy wouldn't hurt anything either.

This is not a hard project ! There is no need to make it into one. Just get busy and turn a few out and play with them.

For you guys with lathes at home, have a tool and cutter shop make you a form tool out of a hi speed tool blank. Then all you do is run it in and hit a stop, and then part the bullet off. You can make hundreds like this in a few hours. The same tool, if designed right will make any diameter you would need IE 38,41,44,45 could easily be made with the same tool, with stops for the cross slide set at the appropriate diameters. You set up a cutoff tool opposite of the form tool so when you back the slide away from the part it gets cutoff. You can cutoff with a form tool but every part will have a "Kachunk" taken out of it when the part cuts off. Also with an independent cutoff tool you can make different lengths of bullets with the same form tool cutter.

That's all there is to this! I want to see a bunch of plastic boolits flying around soon!

Randy

[thehouseproduct]

I have machined about 2 tons of Delrin in my shop over the years.

For this application I would have to say it would work about as well as anything you could actually afford.

You can't swage nylon! period. You can mould it but you can't swage it.

Teflon is too soft, although at slow speeds it would probably work alright.

Delrin is no more abrasive than any other soft plastic. You don't use Hi-speed tools on this stuff because the geometry is not right. You use carbide inserts and one of them will last a life time. Been doing it for 30 years.

I have been looking at getting into brass bullet manufacture for my shop for along time.

Making bullets out of delrin would be fun work, How many do you want? They will cost money, probably in the .25 -.35 cent range each, and the minimum quantity would be about 500. It has to be worth while or nobody will waste their time doing it.

I will design the bullet and there won't be a different one for every customer. There would be different sizes but not a bunch of different shapes. it is pointless.

As far as design goes a roundnose flatpoint is probably the hot ticket. Dimensions similar to a lead bullet of the corresponding caliber. Out of a pistol they would probably be just fine with only the primer. With 1 gr or 2 of Bullseye or ?, they would probably move out of a rifle with enough poop to take down varmints out to 50yds.

I see no need for lube, however a small amount of anything greasy wouldn't hurt anything either.

This is not a hard project ! there is no need to make it into one.

Randy
I'd be in for some in 30 or 35 cal if you a group buy going.

[Hammerhead]

Randy, do you have a CNC lathe? Mostly I was a manual guy, but I used to run a CNC lathe a couple years ago, had a pneumatic pusher, made quick and easy work of simple cylindrical shapes.
I would be most interested in .44 cal. A couple grains of Clays would hurt. Don't think Delrin would cycle my 10mm Glock.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Hammer: yes I do. and I have bar feeders too.

House product: the operative point being,,, getting enough people to want one particular size to justify setting up for a run. This is pointless unless there is at least 1000 bullets for a run.

Also consider this,,, most rifle bullets are going to be around 1' long so the cost of material per foot divided by 12 has to be added to the cost of the individual bullets. Pistol bullets are a better fit, being shorter and all.

I'm willing to jump in here, but may people have to step up and get on board or there is no point. I can't do it for the hell of it.

Randy

Randy

[appleseedgunsmith]

did i wake a sleeping giant? i made mine on a 10x22 grizzly lathe. yes delrin can be nasty. i worked in quality at a plastics company. delrin can get explosive when heated too much and then pressurized. used to scare the bejeezus out of us. afterwards the press would be covered in fluffy ash. anyways...i used carbide inserts with my nylon because thats what i had. hss would be fine and would make a better finish. any clues as to how much bullseye to use? obviously it will exceed anything in the manuals.

[Porterhouse]

W.R.Buchanan,
Would you be interested doing a Group Buy for this? I always wanted to try some for .44 or even .500.

[scattershot]

I will be shooting Zombies with them :)


In all reality I will load them for Animal defense. Here in California (just two weeks ago) a man shot and killed a Mt. Lion in an Orange grove in self defense I beleive, needless to say he is now face a Felony conviction and 1 year in prison, not jail. Also I play around with these oddities for fun more than anything else. Adam

Of course, in Kommiefornia, if the lion had killed the guy, his estate would probably been sued anyway, for introducing foreign material into the food chain.

Seriously, though, if anyone tries this, I'd like to know the results. Sounds like an interesting experiment.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'd be more than willing, but the quantities have to be sufficient to warrant obtaining material and setting up the machine. So far everyone wants a different bullet.

I also will have to establish a price as I have not actually looked closely enough yet to actually quote. I will not be making any money off this one, as it kind of falls under the heading of "Buddy Work" which usually doesn't pay all that well. But even so I can't do it for free, and costs have to be covered.

As far as the material I would probably use Black Delrin rod As that is what I've machined the most of . It machines exactly the same as white, it just looks better.

As far as the dangerousness of this material, it is about as dangerous as fresh milk. If you burn it it does gas off some stinky fumes, but I have never gotten it hot enough to do that while machining it. I have made literally thousands of parts from this material both on lathes and mills, and if I never had to machine any other material it would be fine with me.

It is nice easy stuff to work with. and it is easy to get a nice product out of.

You guys with home lathes, if the bullet is of a simple design like a cylinder with a angle on the front and a flat base it can be easily made in quantity by bar feeding short 1-2' sections of rod thru the chuck or collet.

You would use a piece of rod in your tailstock drill chuck for a stop. Feed stock to stop, then set up a form tool to form the bullet and then have a cutoff tool opposing the rear end of the form tool to cut the part off as you retract the form tool.

A Similar set up could use 3 tools mounted on the compound. A form tool on the front side a stop in the center, and a cutoff on the rear. The setup would run the same way as above, IE feed to stop, form, cutoff, and everything would be done by moving the cross slide back and forth. If you have a collet closer on your lathe then this setup could yeild 2-3 parts per minute easily.

My CNC would be set up this exact same way and it would probably yeild 3-4 parts per minute.

The biggest problem will be setting up the cutoff tool and may require a tool block made to attach to the compound or directly to the cross-slide.

This would be a good project for the home machinist and I would be more than happy to to guide motivated individuals thru the set up, that way everybody would get exactly what they want for the cost of materials and some of their own time. Plus it would be a fun project.

Randy

[appleseedgunsmith]

I'm sure delrin machines fine. I meant heating it in an idle injection mold to over 500 degrees while press is being repaired

[W.R.Buchanan]

I know you were talking about melting it, and it will clear your sinuses right now if you get a good whiff of it.

Injection moulding would be the best way to make zillions of these things, but the problem will be somebody always wants something different than you make.

Been there and done that.

Randy

[thehouseproduct]

It'd be tough to hold tolerances if they were injection molded. OTOH if we are talking plastic bullets, they can probably be fairly oversize without pressure problems.

[appleseedgunsmith]

I wonder what lawyers would say about these in a sd case? True everyone wants something different. I tried to go with a thunderzap profile and large hp. No use in true ballistic design for something that shouldn't or won't be used beyond poker table range....7 yds?

[W.R.Buchanan]

House; it wouldn't hard at all to hold +.001-2 with a moulded part, and a delrin bullet will probably go down the hole just fine even if it was .030 oversized so the tolerance wouldn't be that critical anyway. It would definately yeild to a few thousand lbs pressure. In fact I bet you could stuff one thru a -.030 hole with an arbor press.

The stuff isn't like lead. in fact I doubt that the rifling won't even leave a good trace. One of the guys above said he was recycling his.

It matters not however, as the mould would cost more than you could make selling zillions of boolits, so that probably ain't gonna happen. Plus you'd probably be labeled some kind of criminal for making Cop Killer boolits even though I doubt one of these would go thru a vest at anything less than Gamma Ray velocities.

Randy

[Gunslinger1911]

Hi W R,

This is great info ! Where would a guy get some of this black derilin ? If say he wanted to "experiment" ?

[W.R.Buchanan]

The best and easiest place to by just about anything industrial in nature including small quantities of materials is Mc Master-Carr. Try googling them, they have outlets in all major parts of the country including your's.

The generic name for Delrin is "Acetal"

For boolits you can probably get a fractional sized rod near your bullet size. It usually is available in 1/8" increments to 1" and then 1/4 afterthat.

Randy

[Gunslinger1911]

Cool, thanks for the info Randy. This could get interesting !

Also, I'm thinkin' (yea - uh oh !!!) what about sabots ? Maybe somethin for shooting smaller slugs out of a 500 mag ?

[Rio Grande]

"...I shot them at 12 inch dia watermelons. They didn't exit but split the melons quite spectacularly and symmetrically...."

That just ain't right.
Watermelons?
Them's for eatin'!

In my shop we machined on a cnc lathe some dead soft lead parts. I was amazed how well they turned out.
I started thinking that lead, copper, brass, or aluminum rod could be easily turned into bullets, very quickly, and the CNC could be quickly and easily programmed to make different shapes. And you know, they do have bench-mounted CNC lathes available.
Now plastic....excellent.
My problem with plastic is that it's just too light. Not practical. After what - 20 yards? what would the energy be?
But aluminum might have enough density to be practical. And it's cheap.
How about cheap steel in a plastic sabot?

Seems that powder charges wouldn't be a problem.
Great thread. Thought-provoking.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Rio Grande: The use of brass for solid bullets is nothing new. Barnes uses a "homogeneous mixture of Copper and Zinc" for their new big game solids. Incidentially Brass just happens to be a homogeneous mixture of copper and zinc! and Bronze is copper and tin.

Been doing that for about 3000 years here on earth.

I was once asked to make bullets on my CNC for and outfit that made .50 BMG rifles. (I still have the drawing somewhere. The bullets were made from 12L14 which is essentially cold rolled steel with a trace amount of lead added to make it machine better on screw machines. IN fact it's common name is "leaded screw machine stock" It is actually stronger than 1018 CRS but the chips break into crumbs and aren't all stringy like CRS. You can't have unmanagable chips on a screw machine, It wouldn't run by itself.

Dave Scovill put one of those Brass Barnes solids out of a .475 Turnbull clean thru a female Elephant a couple of years ago. It went in between the eyes and came out right next to the tail and is probably still in flight headed for Mars. It penetrated 11 feet! and a .45-70 will do the exact same thing. From what I've seen in pictures there is only rifling marks on the bullet.

So there are many things that can be done here. I was actually looking at making turned bullets a few years ago, but now everyone and their dog is making them, so it's kind of pointless. If I got to go on every dangerous game hunt that I had ever dreamed of, I couldn't shoot 50 of them in a life time.

You can see my point. I was considering .30 cal .44 cal and .45 rifle cal. and I could actually use the .30 for silhoutte, so at least I could have a use for them. But I just bought 1000 recycled .30 cal bullets for $110 and there is no way I could even make them for myself for .11 ea. So the only way it will happen is if we really have to go into wartime production.

Randy

[appleseedgunsmith]

Shoot melons with plastic bullet and no knife needed to cut. Also makes juice well.

[Multigunner]

A friend found some odd watermelons, at least they looked like watermelons on the outside, growing near the old farmhouse he had rented. The insides were bright yellow instead of red.
He didn't want to risk eating them so he used a few for targets.

His first shot with a .303 didn't even budge the melon, he thought he'd missed. I walked over and picked up the melon and it collapsed, as limp as a banna peel, the insides completely blown out and the hull disrupted by the shock ,but the melon had retained its shape till picked up.

[Porterhouse]

Yellow watermelons were norm when I grew up and we ate them all. I thought they were not as sweet as reds but watermelons in general were not as sweet as todays. They had lots of seeds inside too. I guess generic engineering took place over the years and killed all those yellows. I miss them though...

[olafhardt]

I can recommend the H&R handy rifle in 500 S&W for this kind of research. The bore of the gun is 0.500 inch. I am fixing to cut a 1/2" aluminum rod to try in mine. All sorts of materials are 3available in half inch rounds. The gun is bull strong and costs a little over $200. 00.

[subsonic]

It seems like if you wanted a "one size fits all" and most popular caliber - you'd have to make these in .357" diam to use in .380, 9mm, 38, 357, and .35 cal rifles. The best shape would likely be an OWC or WFN - maybe hollow pointed. A square full WC nose would be ideal for revolvers, but wouldn't feed in autos or work from speed loaders - hence the WFN/OWC. You'd want the nose to taper quickly so it would fit and chamber into short throated autos and tight throated revolvers. Anybody that shoots WFNs will know what I mean. Make them dimensionally similar to a 150gr boolit in that caliber. Make a crimp groove on them that would yeild a .100" driving band ahead of the case for the revolvers, and just seat the whole driving surface in 9mm, .38 super, etc to avoid chambering problems - or just seat as long as will chamber.
Grease groove? Maybe one small one or even knurl them so they can just be hand lubed or rubbed on the lube.

I'd buy some of these to play with. @ $30/100 I think they'd sell.

I think your next best bet, would be a "230gr" size in .452".

The real question is, eventhough they might fit into the autos, what would it take to make them cycle?

I know people who would load them in autos even if they didn't cylce. Straight blow-back guns *might* work, like some .380s. Hi-Point slides would likely be too heavy.

[Rio Grande]

Rio Grande: The use of brass for solid bullets is nothing new. Barnes uses a "homogeneous mixture of Copper and Zinc" for their new big game solids. Incidentially Brass just happens to be a homogeneous mixture of copper and zinc! and Bronze is copper and tin.

Been doing that for about 3000 years here on earth.

I was once asked to make bullets on my CNC for and outfit that made .50 BMG rifles. (I still have the drawing somewhere. The bullets were made from 12L14 which is essentially cold rolled steel with a trace amount of lead added to make it machine better on screw machines. IN fact it's common name is "leaded screw machine stock" It is actually stronger than 1018 CRS but the chips break into crumbs and aren't all stringy like CRS. You can't have unmanagable chips on a screw machine, It wouldn't run by itself.

Dave Scovill put one of those Brass Barnes solids out of a .475 Turnbull clean thru a female Elephant a couple of years ago. It went in between the eyes and came out right next to the tail and is probably still in flight headed for Mars. It penetrated 11 feet! and a .45-70 will do the exact same thing. From what I've seen in pictures there is only rifling marks on the bullet.

So there are many things that can be done here. I was actually looking at making turned bullets a few years ago, but now everyone and their dog is making them, so it's kind of pointless. If I got to go on every dangerous game hunt that I had ever dreamed of, I couldn't shoot 50 of them in a life time.

You can see my point. I was considering .30 cal .44 cal and .45 rifle cal. and I could actually use the .30 for silhoutte, so at least I could have a use for them. But I just bought 1000 recycled .30 cal bullets for $110 and there is no way I could even make them for myself for .11 ea. So the only way it will happen is if we really have to go into wartime production.

Randy

Very informative Randy, thanks.
At first I thought lead, as watching it turned and noticing the very high quality impressed me.
As you know, the CNC could be quickly programmed to make any shape. Experimentation would then be much easier, and any whims a customer had could be accommodated.

from that I began to consider other materials as cost-savers, and also as a way to keep shooting if lead is restricted at some time or places in future. And those CNC's and screw machines are FAST.

So plastics, steel, aluminum, zinc, and combinations of them....you get the idea.
'Cheap' rules out copper-based alloys of course.... 11 cents? I'm thinking 1 or 2 cents each.

Plastic is cool, but bullets need more mass to be used for anything other than very specialized, close-range applications.

By the way, every time I see the copper/zinc thing we call a 'penny'(and that costs us taxpayers 1.4 cents to make) I think "bullet". I have thought about swaging also! Coming from the South, I wouldn't mind putting the squeeze on ol' Abe.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Rio: you always have to consider the time invovled in making stuff. Running automatics you quickly develop an internal calculator for pricing parts on the fly.

With a shop rate at $60 (which is long gone) that equals $1 per minute. If your machine makes 2 parts a minute then that is .50 per part PLUS material (modify for other rates of production but always keep the $1 per minute number in front of you. That is the bottom line also and doesn't account for down time, tool changes, and all the other crapf that makes a job not run smoothly.

Screw machine shops usually run many machines at once so their shop rates get spread out over many machines and I've seen some big outfits that quote based on a 10-15 machine division of their shop rate and on big jobs all of those machiens will run the same part at once. When you start looking at Detroit style production of parts like Float Needles for carbs, or other small simple parts where they are actually going to make millions of them, then buying dedicated machines to do the job is a normal strategy.

I know one guy here in town that was making all of the internal parts for 'Pentel Mechanical Pencils" He was running little itty bitty plastic parts that they litterally hired mexican women to comb thru the wads of nylon stringy chips with tweezers under a microscope to actually find the damned things. They were worth less than one cent each ($5-6.00 per thousand) and the Pentel company kept forcing him to lower the price until he finally had to tell them to go elsewhere. These parts were literally the size of a granual of 3031 powder!

He couldn't afford to run his machines 24 hours a day for virtually nothing. Just the cost of maintenance on the machines was making the job a loss! He finally told them to take a hike and they hiked all the way directly to China!

On other jobs they'd litterally factor in the money gained back thru recycling the chips in the price of the finished parts! I would never go this far in a million years, as if there is that much competition for the work, I'm looking for something else to do.

I once had a job making 3/16 and 5/32 dowel pins for a medical outfit. They were very close tolerance and i was blanking them on my automatic and having them ground to the +/-.0001 tolerance they called for. They origianlly were paying .95 per part and my machine would make 6 a minute. Then they decided to change the material from 416SS which turned very nicely, to 17-4 SS which made stringy ships. So "they volutntarily" raised the price to $1.25 each. They ran unattended at 5 parts a minute and a 6' bar would take 48 minutes to run and yeild about 250 parts while I was at lunch!

$6.25 a minute with no intervention is $375 per hour! and not bad money. Plus I could work on other jobs while that machine was running as I only had to attend to it for about 2-3 minute every hour. I made about $4000 a month off that job alone for about 2 years, and would take the job back at half that price in a heartbeat. Too bad they don't need the part any more. I have thousands of them that I made that they never bought. Oh well? By far the best job I ever had in the shop.

You can see now a little more on how this stuff gets priced in the real world.

Randy.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

The inspiration for John's character may have come from RSA during the civil war. The SA Police were using 308's for crowd control. To appease public reaction, they developed a plastic bullet to load. It was a baby spire point with a gas check. I have some, and iirc, they weigh about 20gr. The MV pushed 5000fps pretty hard, but lost velocity quickly. At 25yds it would penetrate 1/4 inch plywood. At 50yds it would bounce off.
BTW, they are orange.

Rich

[appleseedgunsmith]

If people are dumb enough to pay 150 bucks for jeans and 300 for sunglasses, you could run a limited batch of plastic bullets and at any price sell all of them with proper advertising, making profit or breaking even.