.45 ACP Levergun for CAS Wild Bunch

[armed_partisan]

Okay, it's a crazy idea, but how many people would want a lever-action rifle chambered in .45 auto and how hard would it be to convince a manufacturer to build one? I've wanted one for years, because my go-to caliber has always been .45 ACP. This is an idea I dreamed up during the AWB, and I wonder why no one ever built one. Now that they have "Wild Bunch Class" in Cowboy Action Shooting, I wonder if any of you CASS guys can fill me in on some obscure rule that would forbid such a creation from being used to complement the 1911?

[20nickels]

Somebody over on Marlin Owners forum did it.

[hickstick_10]

Wouldn't it be a PITA to load?

Just musing here, but I wonder if those short, chubby rounds wouldn't be irritating to shove through a loading gate.

[armed_partisan]

That's true, hickstick, but if a company like Henry did it, then it could have one of those load from the front type of mag tubes (what are those things called?).

[45-70 Chevroner]

They would not allow it because it was not a caliber used in a lever action rifle during that time period. There is little difference between the 45 ACP and the 45LC considering the loads they are using in the 45LC Lever action for the Wild Bunch shoot . The loads they are shooting are probably lighter than standard 45 ACP loads. If it is a SASS sponsered shoot they can get a little paticular about some gun / ammo combinations. Sounds like an interesting project though.

[armed_partisan]

Do they allow .357 caliber guns to be used in CASS? My 100th post!

[ihctractor]

I'd be the first one to run out and buy one! That would be a sweet shooting carbine length rifle.
Instead of a loading gate, I would make it load from the end of the tube like the .22 caliber lever guns do, would probably hold around 15 to 20 rounds(?)

[hickstick_10]

food for thought

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2010/02/40-caliber-volcanic-rifle-by-charlie.html

[armed_partisan]

Okay, I sent a message to Henry Repeating Arms, lets see what they say, if they say anything!

[oldhickory]

Last year Merz Antique Firearms listed a Winchester 1892 chambered for .45ACP. The discription said it belonged to one of John Wayne's sons and that the conversion was incomplete.

[Pepe Ray]

Back in the early '80's, (too lazy to dig up the clipped article), the American Rifleman published an article written by a gunsmith (forgot his name too) about making/converting a Marlin M94 into a .45ACP for Ed Harris. (see CBA website).

It's been my dream for as many years. Subsequently, Ed has had 2 more made by two other smiths at different times. I believe, using different procedures. But they were all successful.
They were all made to use the loading gate, as I would prefer them to be. I can't imagine why anyone would consider the .45ACP to be cumbersome or in any way difficult to push through the loading gate, but I can see why someone might wish to have the sliding tube magazine as an option. It has certainly been successful in the .454Casull M92 Rossi as well as the .480Rug. M92 Rossi.

the Rossi's will not be in the running, however, as a base for the .45ACP, as the cost to make a rimless ctg. feed thru that action would be prohibitive.
The Marlin is the ONLY way to go.

GO AHEAD--Push another button!![smilie=s:
Pepe Ray

[fireball168]

I believe Mr. John Taylor, a member on this site, has done this conversion on a Marlin 1894 more than a few times.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but wouldn’t the fact that the 45ACP is a taper crimp round instead or a roll crimp cause issues? Also could a FMJ round cause a round to go off in the magazine do to recoil?

[DIRT Farmer]

If I rembmber correctly in the late 60s several 92 Winchesters were at the Owensboro KY gun show for sale with Mexican police markings. I dident have the money then either.

[Larry Gibson]

Back in the '70s or '80s there were some M92s chambered in .45 ACP that were imported from Argentina. I believe they were companion pieces to the Colts and Ballister Molinas there. I passed on one and have regretted it ever since.

Larry Gibson

[Pepe Ray]

Try running a rimless cartridge thru a M92 action for yourself and you may discover something.

Of course if you throw enough money at it you can put out a fire with dollar bills.
Pepe Ray

[7of7]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but wouldn’t the fact that the 45ACP is a taper crimp round instead or a roll crimp cause issues? Also could a FMJ round cause a round to go off in the magazine do to recoil?

The taper crimp may be a problem. As far as the fmj causing rounds to go off with recoil... I really doubt it. The profile is isn't really sharp enough..

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Not me... I will stick with a very versitle 45 Colt...

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I think a lever in 9mm would be fun, but I personally would take a 45Colt over a 45ACP.

[klcarroll]

I’d go for a Marlin in .45 ACP in a heartbeat! (I’d go for a bolt action too!)……There’s a real shortage of practical long guns in that caliber.

I load thousands of rounds of .45 ACP every year to feed my MACs and handguns; ….And I have long thought that a locked breach long gun in that caliber would be a fun and practical companion.

The “Blowback” action carbines on the market are really not very satisfactory: ….There seems to be an unfortunate interaction between a large, low velocity cartridge, a 16” Barrel, and a bolt that is light enough to be practical in other design respects.

The .45 ACP blowback carbines I have tried to load for have all exhibited problematic extraction, weirdly distorted primers, and generally “harsh” operation. One MAC semi-auto carbine I fooled around with had an ugly history of case separations! (It takes real talent to pull a little cartridge like the 45 ACP into two pieces!!) …..And all of this occurring with loads that would have been described as “Mid-Range” in my 1911!!

I suspect the problem is that the 16” barrel allows the internal pressure to remain far too high, for far too long, for proper extraction to occur in a blowback weapon chambered for such a low-velocity round. ……The MAC carbine I mentioned earlier became a fine shooting little gun when I shortened the actual rifled barrel to 8”. (….with a permanent muzzle extension to bring the “barrel length” out to a legal 16.1”.)

If someone finds a way to come up with an AFFORDABLE lever or bolt action in .45 ACP, I would really appreciate being kept “In The Loop”!


Kent

[Grapeshot]

If someone finds a way to come up with an AFFORDABLE lever or bolt action in .45 ACP, I would really appreciate being kept “In The Loop”!
Kent

The Brits modified their SMLE it shoot .45 ACP rounds for their Commandoes to fire a silenced rifle to take out German sentries. This information was published,IIRC, in the American Rifleman sometime in the 1970's.

Also in the same timeframe, one enterprising soul took a Marlin 336 and rebarreled and chambered it for the .45 ACP to serve as a carbine when he was checking his trap line.

Now that Rossi has come out with their .454 Casul I wonder if they'd come out with a .45 Winchester Magnum?

[robertbank]

The “Blowback” action carbines on the market are really not very satisfactory: ….There seems to be an unfortunate interaction between a large, low velocity cartridge, a 16” Barrel, and a bolt that is light enough to be practical in other design respects.

The .45 ACP blowback carbines I have tried to load for have all exhibited problematic extraction, weirdly distorted primers, and generally “harsh” operation. One MAC semi-auto carbine I fooled around with had an ugly history of case separations! (It takes real talent to pull a little cartridge like the 45 ACP into two pieces!!) …..And all of this occurring with loads that would have been described as “Mid-Range” in my 1911!!

I suspect the problem is that the 16” barrel allows the internal pressure to remain far too high, for far too long, for proper extraction to occur in a blowback weapon chambered for such a low-velocity round. ……The MAC carbine I mentioned earlier became a fine shooting little gun when I shortened the actual rifled barrel to 8”. (….with a permanent muzzle extension to bring the “barrel length” out to a legal 16.1”.)

If someone finds a way to come up with an AFFORDABLE lever or bolt action in .45 ACP, I would really appreciate being kept “In The Loop”!


Kent

Kent the Beretta Storm is a 16" carbine and comes in .45acp. One of the guys had one up here and experienced no prolems with brass. Gun shot just fine, It is a blow back action. There are a couple of 'smiths in Canada that will re-barrel gun to 18 - 20 inches depending on clients wishes. I went with the 9MM as I wanted the 10 rd capacity for IDPA multi-gun.

Take Care

Bob

[Pepe Ray]

Whenever this sub. comes up someone mentions John Taylor as having done these conversions. Indeed, Ed stated that Mr Taylor made Ed's last one.
I do not know Mr. Taylor and am curious why he seems so reluctant to offer his opinions on the subject.
I suppose he's just too busy, and in this terrible time of our present calamity I hope that this is the case.

It would, however, be enlightening to us if he would address some of the concerns and opinions of we amateur's.
Thanks for your patience,
Pepe Ray

[klcarroll]

Kent the Beretta Storm is a 16" carbine and comes in .45acp. One of the guys had one up here and experienced no prolems with brass. Gun shot just fine, It is a blow back action.


I will confess that I have had only cursory experience with the .45 ACP Storm, which DOES NOT include running any of my lead reloads through it.

I wonder how it's Bolt Mass compares to the MAC and Hi-Point Carbines..............


Kent

[oldhickory]

If someone finds a way to come up with an AFFORDABLE lever or bolt action in .45 ACP, I would really appreciate being kept “In The Loop”!


Kent

I remember seeing an 03 Springfield Armory rebarreled and shortened to .45ACP for use in the jungles of Centrail America during the "Bananna Wars" of the early part of the 20th century. I beleive they were experimental, but it looks like a fairly easy conversion for any bolt action that uses a standard .473 rim/head. Re-barrel to .45ACP, use a magazine block the rear of the magazine, or adapt it to use a detachable magazine, (gotta make sure you get the feed angle right).

A cheap bubba'd small ring Mauser would be ideal for this.

[scrapcan]

I think a nice old pump action like a lightning would be fun to have in 45 apc, 9mm, etc...

But it might be easier to make on in 45 auto rim. or one in the 45 cowboy that has arrived from SASS circles.

http://www.cowboy45special.com/

[45-70 Chevroner]

Do they allow .357 caliber guns to be used in CASS? My 100th post!

Only with 38 special loadings as it was a loading before 1900. It was a black powder loading prior to about 1900. Buy the way it is not (CASS) it is SASS "Single Action Shoot Society".

[armed_partisan]

"Buy (sic) the way it is not (CASS) it is SASS "Single Action Shoot Society"."

Oops. My bad. I don't do Cowboy Action Shooting in SASS, so I get confused.

Honestly, I don't care if it would be allowed in SASS or not, I just want a Lever or Pump gun in .45 or 9mm. Modern pistol cartridges in tubular magazines would hold a lot of bullets, plus you would likely be able to sell them in places like Kalifornia, since they aren't scary black rifles. First, we get someone to build one, then we get them to make a take down version! Sweet!

[Ziptar]

You could even make a case for this with the SASS (or CASS sorry, I am not hip to all of that) folks

First take a look at this "Screen-Used Bolt Action Rifle Prop From The Movie "The Wild Bunch" (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=30994&c=Celebrity%20Props&t=Closed&p=0&s=Featured%20DESC,%20RandNo%20ASC&offset=100)"

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/pics/30994_01_lg.jpg

Clearly its a resin copy of an Enfield. (albeit bent...)

You make the case that clearly if the soldiers in "The Wild Bunch" were walking around with "Enfield"s then obviously it something that could be used. :smile:

Get yourself an cheap old Enfield with a sewer pipe for a barrel and one of these Enfield .45 Carbine kits (http://www.specialinterestarms.com/index.php?page=enfield_conversions).

http://www.specialinterestarms.com/Enf45supp.JPG

Not only would you be sharing the same ammo as your 1911, you be using the same mags too. ;-)

Anyway, just an idea.

[45-70 Chevroner]

You could even make a case for this with the SASS (or CASS sorry, I am not hip to all of that) folks

First take a look at this "Screen-Used Bolt Action Rifle Prop From The Movie "The Wild Bunch" (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=30994&c=Celebrity%20Props&t=Closed&p=0&s=Featured%20DESC,%20RandNo%20ASC&offset=100)"

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/pics/30994_01_lg.jpg

Clearly its a resin copy of an Enfield. (albeit bent...)

You make the case that clearly if the soldiers in "The Wild Bunch" were walking around with "Enfield"s then obviously it something that could be used. :smile:

Get yourself an cheap old Enfield with a sewer pipe for a barrel and one of these Enfield .45 Carbine kits (http://www.specialinterestarms.com/index.php?page=enfield_conversions).

http://www.specialinterestarms.com/Enf45supp.JPG

Not only would you be sharing the same ammo as your 1911, you be using the same mags too. ;-)

Anyway, just an idea.

Actually I got my time periods mixed up. They did use bolt actions in the movie because it supposedly took place after about 1911. They were using Colt 1911's 1903 springfields and to fill in all the gaps, they did use a lot of non period rifles and pistols typical for movies in general.

[robertbank]

I will confess that I have had only cursory experience with the .45 ACP Storm, which DOES NOT include running any of my lead reloads through it.

I wonder how it's Bolt Mass compares to the MAC and Hi-Point Carbines..............

Kent

The only boolits my 9MM Storm sees are cast boolits. My friend has the .45acp and it ran LSWC and RN Lead just fine. Bolt is huge.

Go hear for a view of the part.

http://www.berettaweb.com/Beretta%20CX4_Storm/CX4_storm1.htm

Take Care

Bob

[armed_partisan]

They used lots of different guns in the movie that simply didn't exist at the time, like 03A3's. I was wondering why they wouldn't let you use DA S&Ws because the the .38 Special was alive and well, and FAR more common in 1913, when the movie takes place. Army guys chasing Poncho Villa probably never saw a 1911 until they went "Over there" four years later, if they ever saw one at all. George S. Patton, then a Lieutenant, shot a Mexican off his horse with his personal carry piece, a SAA in .45 Colt. If a Lieutenant couldn't get a 1911, it seems certain that a bunch of bandits couldn't get one, much less several.

Here's a good article that shows nearly all the guns that were used in the movie, almost none of which are allowed in Wild Bunch Class of SASS.
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/The_Wild_Bunch

[sundog]

That's my Grandpa on the right. I do not know who the other Sergeant is on the left. This picture was taken at Schofield Barracks, Hawai'i Territory, circa 1914. What does that look like they are packin'? Gramps was 1st Field Artillery.


http://home.windstream.net/corkyconnell/ehconnell/with_pal.jpg

[trap shooter]

how about a lever gun in 45 spl

[armed_partisan]

A lot can happen in a Year, Sundog. When I was in Iraq, I carried an M-16A2, and we were riding around in Green Soft Back Humvees, and a year later, everybody had an M-16A4 with an ACOG on it and they were all in up armored Humvees.

Still, that's a pretty cool picture.

[sundog]

Actually, when the dough boys were 'Over There' a lot of them had 1917 Revolvers made by Colt and S&W. Fine handguns, all. Gramps spoke highly of both the 1911 and the 1917. He especially spoke highly of the 30-06 cartridge. He should know. He was one of the first troops to arrive and was there for the duration.

[fireball168]

If someone finds a way to come up with an AFFORDABLE lever or bolt action in .45 ACP, I would really appreciate being kept “In The Loop”!


I've done a number of Savage 10/110 barrels in 45 ACP & 45 Winchester Magnum.

Have never heard back from the customers if they designed a system to make it feed though.

The late model centerfeed actions would likely have a pretty good shot at feeding, fabricate a Delrin ramp at the front of the box and a spacer towards the rear.

[John Taylor]

I see my name bounced around here so I better jump in. I have converted the Marlin 94 from 45 Colt to 45 ACP. Not sure I would want to try a 92 Winny, it would be a chore to get it to feed. On the marlin I set the barrel back enough to clean up the chamber and change the timing on the carrier. There usually is no problem with factory ammo feeding but a simi wad cutter can give problems. The 92s have a tendency to stove pipe so it might be best to check with someone like http://www.stevesgunz.com/ . He is the 92 specialist I call when I run into a problem.
If you would like to talk with me about the conversions ether PM or e-mail works. Waiting for me to find a post with my name mentioned may take a while.:p