To cast or not to cast 7.62x54r

[maximus]

Hello guys. i just got my nice Basili's aproved Mosin Nagant, now i am looking for ammo, the thing is that i am not sure if live buying surplus corrosiver ammo that i cant reload or to buy, Partizan ammo that i can actualy reload after, i am married have one 'little girl so i am limited by my wife's spending limits hehe. What will save me more at the long run let say if i whant to shoot like 60 rounds per month or so.

thank you.

[maximus]

by the way the chepest i can get the 20rds of partizan is $13.50 , and the cheapes i have seen on 440 Rds of surplus canned is $89

[JeffinNZ]

Well, casting is one of the most expensive ways to save money. HEHE.

If I could buy canned ammo for the prices you guys could I would stop casting tomorrow.

[Landric]

My real problem is that I hate to buy factory ammunition and boxer primed brass is basically unavailable used and super expensive new. So, mostly I don't shoot my M39, though I would love to if I could get a couple hundred pieces of boxer brass for a reasonable price, and I'd cast for it.

[NickSS]

In the short run buying surplus ammo is the cheaper way to blast away with a MN but in the long run reloading with cast bullets will beat factory surplus ammo. However, if you are talking surplus vs reloaded full power Jacketed loads the surplus will win out all the time as surplus sels per round for what bullets cost alone so you loose.
e I do both cast and surplus.

[1Shirt]

I have an aversion to shooting factory anything except 22LR. Shoot a couple of Mosins with nothing but cast. Got brass from GRAF if I remember right and consider it reasonable. The Lee 312's sized .314 shoot very well in my M38 Carb an rifle over anywhere from 16-22 gr. of 2400.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[HATCH]

I have a couple rifles in 7.62x64r
One is a romy PSL.
I shoot nothing but Wolf non - corrosive thru it.

I have been doing extensive testing with corrosive ammo.
Test weapon was a pieces and parts AK-74 triangle folder.
All mint parts but no numbers matched.

We would shoot the **** out of it with corrosive surplus. I am talking 300 to 400 rounds (in a hour time period).
We then would following it up with Non-corrosive ammo.
In the beginning we shot 20 rounds of NC before we left.
Later visits was just 5 rounds of NC.
We never cleaned it with oil, just ran a clean patch down the bore.
Its been about 2 years worth of testing and so far the weapon has no corrosion.

Keep in mind the weapon has a chrome line bore and a stainless gas piston.

[koehn,jim]

I always shoot my military rifles with issue ammo to get a basis for accuracy comparison. Some of the imported military rifles are so oversize in the bore that you may have to shoot cast loads to get really good accuracy. Have you run a bore slug thru it to get a measurment. A good cleaning always helps, not just russian but any ex military, just my thoughts on the subject.

[mike in co]

wolf sells a brass cased boxer primed 20 rd box as does s&b.........

buy a couple of boxes....then save your peenies for a 314299 mould...... and a 20 lb lee pot....or go dipper with a pot on a camp stove.....

skip the milsurplus ammo.......

once you are up and running the cost per shot goes way down.


mike in co

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Why I cannot think of any rifle I would not cast for.. why would I own a rifle not to cast for..
Even if all I could do is load a RB I would do so..

[maximus]

thank you guys i think i may start buying partizan and saveing the brass to for future reload.

[Maven]

maximus, Mike in CO's advice is dead on. Besides, Graf's/Privipartizan brass is extremely long lived, particularly with CB loads. Once you know what diameter CB your bore requires, the next source of aggravation may well be finding a Ly. 314299 that actually casts large enough for it. If you can't, there are a number of custom bullet mold makers, some on this site, to turn to for assistance.

[rhbrink]

Good morning
Why I cannot think of any rifle I would not cast for.. why would I own a rifle not to cast for..
Even if all I could do is load a RB I would do so..

+1 on that

[piwo]

The Mosin, of all would benefit from Cast. It's "over sized" 7.62 bore is not conducive to reloading jacket .308 ammo, so a nice mold that you could size correctly and fill up that bore would seem to be tailor made. I have several MN rifles of different variations, but haven't cast for them (and haven't shot them in many years).

[maximus]

it would be great if i culd find some berdan primers for all these surplus shells i have.
Nobody is selling them right?

[maximus]

i just measured my bore and is .311 , i guess that is why is not doing so great wit the .308 rounds.

[koehn,jim]

Grafs on occasion has berdan primers, the casings can sometimes be converted to use boxer primers , depending on the size of the hole. There is a sticky on it in one of the sections do a search and you should find it,

[Rangefinder]

Well, casting is one of the most expensive ways to save money. HEHE.

If I could buy canned ammo for the prices you guys could I would stop casting tomorrow.

True statement on the first part!! As to the second part, Jeff--you lie like a cheap rug!! :D You are an addict no better than the rest of us, so don't go all high-n-mighty claiming you'd stop casting for anything less than the Second Coming!


YES--cast for the Mosin, without hesitation! Once it's all dialed in right, it will shock you just how fun, accurate, and cheaply you can fire that ol' mil-surp golf club. I absolutely love what mine can do with a lead boolit.

[northmn]

I had a Russian carbine with a 317 bore. Even cast was a challenge for that one, but would have been an alternative. I like to shoot cast in milsurps mostly to preserve them as they are now collectors and cast is much easier on them. You can spend as much as you want to reload cast just like anythihg else, but generally is you have the equipment already it is a savings. Also, after shooting a deer this year with a factory load I am going back to cast. Plinking loads are also a lot of fun whcih factory does not really supply. A MN can be loaded for rabbits to moose if you handload.

DP

[maximus]

True statement on the first part!! As to the second part, Jeff--you lie like a cheap rug!! :D You are an addict no better than the rest of us, so don't go all high-n-mighty claiming you'd stop casting for anything less than the Second Coming!


YES--cast for the Mosin, without hesitation! Once it's all dialed in right, it will shock you just how fun, accurate, and cheaply you can fire that ol' mil-surp golf club. I absolutely love what mine can do with a lead boolit.


golf club lol!! , yeah mine looks like a chewed up pencil but i like it.

[maximus]

im just gona stare at grafs and sons to get some of those berdan primers.

[Casting Timmy]

The mosins were the first rifle I started relaoding for, and now I am reloading cast bullets for them. Be careful buying surplus ammo, some of it is brass cased and the other is steel cased laquered. In all my mosins the steel case laquered ammo will just about freeze the bolt closed with sticking in the chamber. Unfortunately I had to learn that the hard way about not shooting the steel case in the bolt actions.

The 440 rounds surplus cannisters can be steel case, so be very careful of what surplus ammo you buy if you go that route.

Prvi is good brass, and I would recommend buying it here and there then getting dies and a mold as you can. Lee has some 2 cavity molds that are raelly cheap but sometimes take a little elbow grease to clean up and get casting well. If you have time to clean it up you can save some money buying a Lee mold to see if you like casting before getting something else.

Have fun, with whatever you decide to do.
Timmy

[WineMan]

The last batch of Berdan primers that was sold by Graf's fit the 7.5x55 GP11 brass fine but may not fit some of the larger primer pockets of 7.62x54R. I know it would fit the brass Albanian cases but I did not try it in any of the steel cases from Poland or Bulgaria that I had on hand. The other issue is that the primers were made for the 7.62x39 and as such are under powered for full charge loads and jacketed bullets in larger cases with slower powders. Hangfires and non fires were reported. I used them in light cast loads with Alliant 2400 in the 7.5x55 Swiss and had 100% ignition. Tula the supplier recommended making the flash holes larger to have them work with larger amounts of slower (4895 and slower) powders. YMMV. The seating depth of Berdan is also very critical and not crushing the priming pellet is the key.

With Boxer primed brass available, saving Berdan brass is really only a challenge to say "I can do it". If you are frugal, can find Berdan primers, and have free time it can be done. A couple of hundred boxer cases will last a long, long time shooting even heavy cast loads and with velocities around 1,600 fps (pretty darn accurate and good for 200 yards without leading) they may last a lifetime. Using Berdan brass is really a labor of love. I am sure if there was a more reliable source and larger selection of primers it might make more sense.

The nice thing about cast is you can shoot all day and not worry about your shoulder or wearing out a barrel although with Mosins at $100 barrel life may not matter. Most of the surplus I have fired is pretty warm and the heavy ball in a M38 or M44 carbine is will get your attention and that of anyone around you. Due to the corrosive priming mixture, cleaning after every shooting session is a necessity when shooting surplus ammo. I use a couple patches saturated with Windex glass cleaner down the bore and around the bolt face and end of the barrel, followed by a normal cleaning with Hoppes #9, CLP, Outer's or any other of the commercial bore cleaners then a couple of gun oil patches.

If you want a big bore rifle experience and not spend much money, a MN 91/30 and a couple of cases of Surplus ball ammo is the way to go. You probably will not be able to hit your point of aim under 300 yards without making the front sight higher, the bolt will probably be sticky, triggers are usually long and creepy and using the "safety" will challenge your fingers and wrist. That being said, I have three MNs and I like them all.

Wineman

[northmn]

I agree with Wineman in that I would not mess with berdan primers and get the boxer style. Relaodable brass is just too common for this caliber. Availability of berdan primers makes them false economy. Also you have to order them by the 1000 where I can get primers locally by the 100. I believe there is Hazmat on primers also.
DP

[HighHook]

Like previously mentioned just buy a couple boxes of boxer, shoot em up then load'em up with CB. When i go shooting i take several different rifles and shoot 20-40 rnds each in the different calibers.

[HamGunner]

Boxer primed brass is much more available now than in the past. A hundred rounds of brass will shoot a long time using cast bullet loads. I load for two different size bores using jacketed stuff and I load both jacketed as well as cast for my M-28 which has the smaller bore. If you will be using open sights, then cast bullet accuracy and cheap bullets can make for a lot of shooting fun.

Forget the Berdan primers.

[HamGunner]

With the availability of boxer primed brass for the Moisin-Nagant, I doubt that I would want to go to the effort, but below is one alternative. Might be a fun project for someone that likes to tinker.

http://users.ameritech.net/mchandler/primer.html

[piwo]

Yes, .311 and .312 are common bore measurments with the Three Line Rifle! And those .308's are just rattling all the way down the barrel. :sad: I've thought of casting for mine, but haven't crossed over from the muzzleloading world to the cartridge world as yet when it comes to casting......

[Kraschenbirn]

From my limited MN experience - I've only got one (so far) - my take is that CBs are the best way to go with those old Russki's. The bore of my 91/30 is shiny with sharp rifling but slugs at just under .312 so surplus Bularian FMJs print what look like buckshot patterns at anything past 50M. On the other hand, Lee 312-185s - dropped from a "beagled" mould, sized .314, and loaded into Privi cases - will ring a 10" round swinger @ 200M with boring regularity.

Try a running a search of this forum for something like "Moisin Loads"...there have been a number of threads on the subject.

Bill

[buck1]

Mine sluged out at a whopping .318 . I am still slowly shooting Winchester ammo through it. $25.00 a box but it should be good brass. 1 box a payday. As big as my bore is it still holds 1 1/2 groups at 100 yds. I DRILLED IT AND INSTALLED THE ati SCOPE BASE AS WELL AS THE ati CAMMO STOCK. OOPS! I hit the caps lock key.
Theres a guy o ebay that does great bolt work for about $50.00 .

[WineMan]

Another option would be to use the Ed Harris "The Load" which is 13 grains of Alliant Red Dot

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html

Use this with some of the pulled 0.308 or 0.311 jacketed bullets and have something in the middle of the road. The 308 bullets seem to fill up and not rattle too much and have surprising accuracy. It can also be used with cast to good satisfaction. It is however on the top side for that powder. I stick with Alliant 2400 for most of my normal cast loads and use Unique for lighter boolits and lower velocities.

Wineman

[masscaster]

Hi Folks,
I find the MN to always need slugged first. I've seen bores to .320, and as low as .309.
This usually used some moulds by Lyman in the .319 series, but most being tighter can run the .311/.313 series respectively.
Alot of the shooter's of this firearm use a .311359 made by Lyman. This is sized either .311, or .313.
You have to remember they used the rifling reamers for large runs. They gradually wore down.
This is the main cause for the bore variations, not bad tooling.
Shoot the proper size cast @ .001 over at moderate velocities and you'll find you have a good shooter.
By the way, .311359 is GC Carbine boolit, and there's a nice little PB boolit that works well also sized @ .311/.313. You can also shoot the .313 series (.32 Spec./.32 LC) series of boolits.
Hope this helps.
Happy Holidays!!
Jeff

[iron brigade]

Yes, .311 and .312 are common bore measurments with the Three Line Rifle! And those .308's are just rattling all the way down the barrel. :sad: I've thought of casting for mine, but haven't crossed over from the muzzleloading world to the cartridge world as yet when it comes to casting......

between my son and i we have 5 mn's and they all shoot .308 dia fmj bullets very well. we do shoot cast bullets in 2 of the rifles-311291 as cast.:grin:

i forgot to mention the 2 m39 finns along with my m27 & m28 and a finn m91. love those rifles!

[Gunsmoke4570]

I've got a collection of Finnish MNs and most of the bores on them are pretty consistent around .311. I do have a M27 that comes in at .307 though as was normal for some of this model. The surplus rifles is where I'm hoping to expand my boolit casting into instead of just handguns.

[northmn]

I like to shoot the cast in the milsurps mostly as a preservation issue, in that they are much easier on the bores. I doubt if one can shoot out a barrel with cast and cast have a tendency to give a lube coating that protects the bore when I get a bit lazy. Corrosive primed stuff is OK for a lot of shooting in an afternoon but a pain for occaisional shooting at one shot or so (kind of like a muzzleloader). As I have taken deer with cast bullets and like their performance for that purpose better than jacketed, I love to shoot cast. Were I to get a MN with a very large bore I would consider selling it and getting one more in line with the bore size I have stuff for. (I did that once) They are cheap enough to trade off and collect without breaking the budget.

DP

[diehard]

I am still slowly shooting Winchester ammo through it. $25.00 a box but it should be good brass. 1 box a payday.
I have a number of MN's (not so many any more--they make good Christmas presents:)). Two rifles I still own slug out at .310 and.311 ,and I have used them both for hunting rifles, shooting all the boxer primed brass I could find for practice so I could reload it with .311 bullets. I find the Winchester brass to be excellent brass, and also accurate ammo. Prvi/Wolf Gold is good brass, and my only complaint is I have had rims too thick to fit in my shell holders without touching them up a little with a file. Don't know if anyone one else has experienced this, but 250 rounds of PRVI 30-30Win I bought has the same problem. Anyway, now that I reload cast boolits some of that Win brass has been loaded a dozen or more times and still looks brand new. Good stuff.

Maximus.....as mentioned the advantage of CB's is the versatility of rounds you get from the same brass. I shoot Lee 113 soup cans from one MN , and can switch to Lee 312-160-2r and even Ranch Dog 165's without changing the sights (much). When I only shot surplus I found I was constantly trying to figure out why my sights were low with one load, high with another, and like buckshot with the next one. My unsolicited two cents.....

[DeadHandRed]

Maximus, i have the same dilemma with my M44 but had decided (easy decision after reading teh castboolit forum) to buy good brass ammo for a year, then start casting next year once ive got enough brass. ive started collecting WW's for a few months now, and have over a hundred pounds without too much effort.

[RCB1917]

Been reading the forum for some time. The discussion re the MN 7.62x54R caught my eye. My rifle is not accurate with surplus (corrosive) ammo that I have been shooting. I used to cast boolits but had gotten away from it. The Mosin is the most inaccurate rifle I own... The attached pic was 50 yard results, using a Bullsbag rest. (Rem ammo was for another rifle) Might as well used a shotgun with a turkey choke..
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg61/valkyriemc/Nagantsmall.jpg

[Jjed]

Here is my target from my first outing with my mn. I got lucky and got one that shoots .312 cast very well.
this is 100 yds, 19.4 gr 2400 with 180 gr boolit.

[Landric]

I finally picked up some 7.62x54 dies and a couple of boxer primed cases, so hopefully I'll be shooting cast in mine as soon as I find the right mould.

[1Shirt]

Both my long and short Mosins shoot well, but I have a preference in shooting the M-38. W/16 gr of 2400 and one gr or so of dac fill, under the Lee 155R312, from the bench have no problem keeping a ten shot group in or under 2". Will do the same thing with the 185 Lyman, but that is additional lead. Bought the 38 as a lender, but think I may now hunt it myself. Handy little rifle, and the ctg will do anything that you could ask of a 308, and maybe more with blts. over 200 gr.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Ole]

AIM has some of their 7.62x54 ammo on sale as of yesterday.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=A76254STR

[Chunky Monkey]

Well, casting is one of the most expensive ways to save money.

Damn that ought to be on a bumper sticker or banner I could put up in the man cave!!! :rolleyes:

I currently shoot only cheap surplus out of my Mosins but would like to start casting for them ~ someday! :-?

[Mossy Nugget]

Love this thread, love my $79 91/30 almost as much. My gun patterns like RCB1917's with $89 spam can copper washed russian light ball. Nothing "light" about that recoil! Ordered lee 50 yr. anniversary kit, 7.62X54R die set and case gauge, 100 rds. Prvi Partizan and a rubber recoil pad. I also bought stuff to slug the bore and remove copper. That puts me at about 3X the price of the rifle for ammo and components so far. Once I slug the bore and choose a pot, mould and sizing die, buy powder and primers etc, The outlay to cast and reload looks to be about 5X the price of the rifle. Soooo..... When exactly do I start "saving" money?

[txpete]

I started shooting cast thru my finns years ago when a spam can was 29.99 + shipping.everyone thought I was nuts but I just like to shoot cast boooolits:drinks:.
M39 VKT finn with red dot
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/mosin%20nagant/Scan10110.jpg

another good load is the lee 160 tl gc with 19.0 grs AA5744.I have tried this load in my sako sky M28/30 and size my bullets in this one at .309 .very accurate load.

the flyer was all me....oops

[THOR5624]

Anyone know some good starting loads with .311 155gr. cast bullets for the mosin?

[Rangefinder]

Anyone know some good starting loads with .311 155gr. cast bullets for the mosin?

When in doubt, go with "The Load"... Otherwise known as 13gr. Red Dot. ;)


The outlay to cast and reload looks to be about 5X the price of the rifle. Soooo..... When exactly do I start "saving" money?

Hehe... Welcome to the casting conundrum! :D Actually, the savings start pretty quick. In no time you'll be calculating your shooting in terms of cost per primer+cost for a few grains of powder. My Mosin is around $0.08 per shot---$80 per thousand is pretty darn cheap these days.