325 or 270HP in 45 Colt for deer

[tek4260]

Just a bit of thinking out loud.

LBT 325 Keith over 22gr of H-110
Mihec 270SAA HP over 24gr of H-110

Which would be better for whitetail?

I have killed a few deer over the past few years with the 325 and they all ran about 20 to 50 yards. There has always been a surprising lack of blood trail and at the shot I get a sick feeling. I can tell I hit the deer, but dang they run like they haven't been touched. My shots are usually between 60 and 100 yards and sometimes it's hard to tell where the deer was standing to start my search. And for what it's worth, my shots are "good". Right behind the shoulder, a bit below center. I may need to pull a bit more forward and try to break shoulders, but there is some mental block I have that doesn't allow me to do that. My grandfather always said to shoot behind the shoulder and it's like I go on autopilot and shoot there even though I know I should break the shoulder.

I am thinking of trying the Mihec in the hopes that the "ears" of the hp will shear off and leave sort of a jagged wad cutter that will transfer more energy and have more of a tearing effect for more blood. But I am giving up 50 or so grains of weight. Of course, my first handgun deer was shot with a 44 with 300gr factory loads. It ran about 50 yards. Dad shot a deer from the same stand a few days later with the 500 Smith shooting 440's and his deer ran 80 yards. Both were shot behind the shoulder and I bet if you measured, the boolits hit within an inch of each other on the deer. So I guess the weight is not that big of a factor.

And to those who say they drop all deer in their tracks with lil ol 44's with 240s at around 1K..... I don't know how you do it. My deer must be tough. I love to handgun hunt but cant stand the thought of losing one.

[Ernest]

My experience has been that with light game like deer and small hogs hollow points do kill faster. With the Lyman devastator h.p. out of the 44 mag the entrance hole will some times be big enough to leave a blood trail.
I have never had any trouble with penetration on white tails so I don't really see the need for very heavy solid bullets.

[RobS]

The meplat size is what makes the difference on thin skinned animals such as deer. Both the Keith bullets you described I believe had about the same meplat diameter being close to .320 give or take a few .001's. You are going to fully penetrate from one end to the other with both bullets and the reason for using a heavier would be for more penetration so on deer I don't see an advantage with the heavier boolit unless it has a larger meplat. A HP does provide more internal damage with its expansion providing the alloy is of the right BHN to perform as it should. What velocities are you shooting at as too fast of a bullet doesn't provide enough dwell time to create the shock wave; too fast of a bullet just pokes right on through.

[44man]

Again RobS is giving good information.
You really want two holes in an animal with the revolver. Every deer I ever shot with expanding jacketed that did not exit had ZERO blood trails.
Tek, you are OK with the 325 gr. you must realize that blood trails do not start at the impact point and it could be more then 20 yards until you find any. You do not have the shock of a rifle so you need to depend on the deer bleeding out.
You need to disrupt the nervous system for a bang-flop, so don't expect it.
Deer going 20 to 50 or more yards is OK. Most deer take 10 seconds to die even from a broad head but can make 100 yards very quick.
You are doing what is needed and I don't think you can improve on it.
The revolver is not less effective then a rifle, seen too many guys hit deer with 7mm mags and .300's go a mile with almost no blood trails, found some but lost many. I help them if they come and ask but most times we lose the deer.
I have already found a bunch of dead deer eaten up by animals from the rifle hunters.
Yes, you can lose one now and then, you just have to get over it.
My experience with the revolvers is that once you find blood from a good hit, there will be a lot of it so do not quit what you are doing, make two holes.

[45 2.1]

You do not have the shock of a rifle so you need to depend on the deer bleeding out.

My experience with the revolvers is that once you find blood from a good hit, there will be a lot of it so do not quit what you are doing, make two holes.

Dependent on what you do and how you cast with your alloy, the first statement can be wrong. It takes very little energy (about 400 ft. lbs.) to kill a deer immediately. You have to transfer that energy to the deer at the proper place at the proper time. Expanding boolits do that...........and exit then.

Making two holes does NOT guarantee a blood trail...or any blood at all. A big FAT doe can be punched by one of your loads (hard boolit and all) and leave absolutely no blood and be lost due to fat plugging both holes. I found her a week later (when it warmed up enough to smell her) and examined the holes in her. Complete penetration from both hits in very vital areas and a totally destroyed heart also. She ran about 350 yds from where she was shot. My mistake was not shooting bone with a solid or not using one of my hollow points.

[Dennis Eugene]

Only one thing is for sure and that is that any thing can happen. What your doing now is working and will work just as well with either bullet. As for shooting out shoulders I've never been a big fan of that I too take a boiler room shot or if closer anmd from a good rest a neck shot. Dennis

[HammerMTB]

It is always amazing to me how even small thin-skinned animals have so much desire to live and will try very hard to avoid being food for their prey. I agree that 2 holes help, but don't guarantee a blood trail. What may help more is some modification to your hunting technique.
Years ago my BIL and I were out and came across 4 big whitetail bucks in mulie country. I shot the biggest one of them (or so I thought). The other three took off, of course. My BIL said, Why didn't you shoot the big one? Evidently his estimation of the biggest was different than mine. We ran off and looked over the hill where they ran, but they were long gone. I went back and looked where I'd shot- or so I thought. Nothing. It was a 100 yard shot, and I was sure it was a good hit. I was using my 7MM Mag at the time, and it usually stacks 'em in their tracks. After some looking, my BIL said "Over here!" and had found the buck. It had indeed dropped right in its tracks. It had happened so fast I didn't even see it due to the rifle's recoil.
Now I'm getting to the point: When you shoot, find as many landmarks as you can from the point of your shot. You know the boolit travelled in a straight line. If circumstances allow, let someone else go to the site and you direct right from where you shot.
Next, if the critter definitely did run after the shot, wait. do some more landmarking as you wait. A well hit animal will want to lay down as soon as it feels it is safe. If you are NOT chasing, this may be 100 yards or less. If you run after, a liver hit animal may go a mile bleeding out internally and give you little too look for.
Sometimes not getting in too big a hurry helps a lot.
Or, what I do a lot for meat hunting is a CNS shot. You have to be certain you can make a clean shot, but if you are accurate, and can hit the CNS, the whole thing ends right there. I will add that I don't do that with a pistol. I am not that good with a short barrel, and likely won't ever be.

[Whitworth]

I would use whichever one shoots most accurately from your revolver.

[Groo]

Groo here
I had the same problem with 320gr SSK bullets from our 44mags.
The deer was hit 5 times - all through the K-zone.[one broke a sholder]
and ran over 100 yds up hill and down. All but one went through[ texas hart shot at over 50yd]
After talking with J D Jones of SSK we were convenced that deer do not need near that
much power. Most being used to travel on the other side of the deer.
I now use 220 to 240 gr hp or fp for deer from pistols.
PS. The load ,bullet,and metal mix were used to take Big game allover the world
By JD and Davis of Magnaport..
It was Too Hard and Too Heavy for something as light as a 200 lb deer.

[NickSS]

I have killed 60 or 70 head of big game including deer, elk, carabue, bear, buffalo and antilope. From my experience a bang flop occures fairly seldom and even more seldom with big heavy bullets going rather slowly. It is typical for an animal to go some distance be it a couple of jumps or 100 yards or so after being solidly hit through the chest. The only way I know of stopping an animal for sure is bust a front shoulder joint, break its spine or blow its head off. That is why most dangerous game hunters in africa hunt with solid bullets and aim for a shoulder shot. You break the animal down and and if necessay finish it with a shot behind the ear. With a hand gun you should expect to do some tracking unless you get lucky and hit a vital spot that disrups the anmals nervous system like right now. Even hart shots can be expected to run for about 10 secinds. That is one reason I started using a 30-06 with 150 gr bullets for white tails years ago. The would run only a couple of jumps before falling over. They were much easier to find in heavy brush of New England and NY state where I hunted in those days. However. It did waist meat.

[Whitworth]

I have found that each and every animal is a law unto itself. There are no absolutes. I have had animals run off for a distance hunting with rifles (including some big bangers like my .416 Remington), as well as with revolvers. I have also found that particularly with my .475 Linebaugh, I am not giving anything up to a high-powered rifle with regards to terminal performance.

[tek4260]

Well I managed to bang flop one this morning with my measly ol 44 loaded with 300gr Keiths. I had 8 deer literally on top of me when it was too early to see the sights. Full rut type action with 5 bucks running the does in circles around my stand. There was one nice buck behind me, but I decided to let someone else take him later since those horns do nothing for me. A big bull horn spike walked up intent on joining the action and messed up and gave me a head on shot at about 25 yards. One thru the neck anchored him in his tracks. None of the others seemed to notice the shot and I sat there looking at them for another 15 minutes before I finally climbed down and ran them off.

Thanks for all the opinions so far. I know that the Mihec will continue thru even after shedding the ears of the HP, so I don't feel like I will be giving up any penetration. I was just hoping it would be like a Winchester Ranger on steroids. But reading the replies here, it seems like an instant blood trail is somewhat a pipe dream. Where I hunt, there are planted pines with grass that is head high, so if a deer is more than 2 feet away, you aren't going to see it. And, of course that is where they head when they are shot.

On that 30-06 with 150's, I did the same. I went from 165 Gamekings to 150's. Then on a whim, I tried some 125's. They do much better than any other load I have found. The deer act like they are shot with my 220 Swift or my 8mm Mag when the 125 hits them.

[CLAYPOOL]

I like to stand still @ the shot and listen to it running or watch it laying on the ground. All ways watch for it to come back to life in a few minutes. Note land marks if needed. Use flagging tape bathroom tissue to mark trail /blood/ or direction of travel. ( Tissue handy for other uses). Larger deer sounds like a horse running and can make a loud noise falling. Move slowly and, "Stop - Look - listen", is still good advice. Here in Illinois slugs DO make a large hole, but NOT all ways a good blood trail....SEE YUW
CLAYPOOL

[jh45gun]

I have shot deer through the shoulders and dropped right there. I have also shot in the boiler room and dropped right there. I have also shot through the boiler room and had them go anywhere from 35 yards to 100. Every deer is different. Neck shots can be good but you got to know your gonna hit them where it counts. An inch off can spell some tracking.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
An old Michigan hunter once said for whitetail to figure about a grain of lead for a pound of deer. That was with black powder velocities in a rifle.
I find that is a OK guide line with the average mag revolver to include modern 45 Colt loads.

[Slogg76]

I almost always get a "bang-flop" from my rifles using jacketed bullets. I hit the deer at a sharp angle through the shoulder and take out the heart as well. Ruins some meat, but it sure beats tracking them especially when sharing the woods with many other hunters in close proximity. Same shot with a revolver is no where near as consistent. Sometimes they drop on the spot, sometimes they run 100 yards even when the damage appears the same from deer to deer. At least that has been my experience. I would be happy if every deer I'd taken with a revolver only went 20-50 yards. Sounds like your set up is working great!

[jwp475]

Dependent on what you do and how you cast with your alloy, the first statement can be wrong. It takes very little energy (about 400 ft. lbs.) to kill a deer immediately. You have to transfer that energy to the deer at the proper place at the proper time. Expanding boolits do that...........and exit then.



So what happens at 300 FPE? Or 80 FPE? FPE is a poor tool to rate lethality

[44man]

I do not believe in energy or any paper figures, only boolit work inside the animal.
The very best with a revolver is a good meplat shot between 1300 and 1400 fps. That gives the most internal damage. Shoot the boolit too fast and you can lose the deer with a small hole poked through and even shot too slow can do the same.
I advocate two holes but when you do not match velocity you need some expansion.
All of our blood trails are best with hard boolits from all calibers at 1350 fps, you can run on them.
When you start to speed up boolits or slow them down or use fast expanding bullets that do not go through, you are not getting a good blood trail.
Lighter boolits in the .44 will work but don't shoot them faster then 1350 fps, don't think 1500 fps is better because you will poke a pencil hole.
Softening the boolit or using a hollow point can stop the boolit in a small deer and that small entrance hole will not leak much.
Entrance and exit holes need not be large but internal damage will let blood pour from the holes.
Boolit weight in the .44 can be very heavy, I use 310 to 330 gr for deer but velocity is at the right spot. Don't ever think shooting a lighter boolit faster will work better.
I shot too many deer with 240 gr XTP's that had zero blood trails when back tracking them because I had one hole and recovered all bullets with perfect mushrooms. I seen them fall and if they had gotten into the brush, they might be lost.
I shot and lost several deer shot with WLN and WFN boolits going TOO FAST, 1632 fps. A softer, hollow point stopped that junk right quick.
All of your experiences mirror mine because you are out of touch with the proper velocities for the boolit used.
Don't blame fat plugging a hole, blame the boolit shot too fast or slow that did not ruin the insides of the animal. Fat on the rib cage or shoulders is so little and hard, it will not plug, only internal fat around guts is soft, intestines can plug a hole. Deer fat on the outside is very hard. There is NO FAT in the boiler room. The most soft fat is around the kidneys so if you get a plugged hole, you gut shot the deer.
Yes, when I see a deer go down, I back track all of them looking to see what blood is on the ground up to the spot they were shot. You will learn more from that then anything else.
I can't agree with Groo at all. I have never lost a deer shot with hard, heavy boolits from the .44. Blood trails are enormous.
How in the world can you hit a deer five times with a revolver? But then I seen a small deer take 11 shots with 12 ga slugs before it went down for good.
If you make a bad hit with the first shot, you can tear a little deer to pieces before it gives it up.

[tek4260]

On the thoughts of the HP's not passing completely thru the deer... Don't you think the 270 SAA will still completely pass thru when I drive it over 1200fps? I can't imagine it not making it all the way through the deer on a broadside shot.

[c.r.]

tek

on a broadside shot............i think that 270 will pass through a deer if its traveling at anything over 950 fps

[tek4260]

When the Zeus gets the group buy finalized I'll have a HP to shoot in my 480 and 475's as well. That should work well. Now I just have to get a custom smith to turn one of my OM Supers into a 5 shot 480.

[outdoorfan]

On the thoughts of the HP's not passing completely thru the deer... Don't you think the 270 SAA will still completely pass thru when I drive it over 1200fps? I can't imagine it not making it all the way through the deer on a broadside shot.

I took a doe this fall with that bullet using the pentagonal HP and 30-1 alloy. This ensured that the nose didn't blow off at the lowly 900 fps that I shot it at. However, I ended up with a big mushroom, which limited penetration. The bullet penetrated about 15 inches broadside (slightly angled), breaking a rib on the way in and out, while coming to rest in the offside hide after actually poking a hole through it (the hide).

I took another one at the same velocity, but this time using 50/50 ww/soft. The nose just blows right off of those when using the pentagonal HP configuration. That shot was broadside and the bullet exited after penetrating 10-12 inches. I don't think there will be any trouble at higher velocities. However, my beef with the Mihec pentagonal HP is that it is too deep into the bullet thereby taking too much of the nose with it and not leaving enough shank for penetration after the nose blows off.

[waksupi]

I took a doe this fall with that bullet using the pentagonal HP and 30-1 alloy. This ensured that the nose didn't blow off at the lowly 900 fps that I shot it at. However, I ended up with a big mushroom, which limited penetration. The bullet penetrated about 15 inches broadside (slightly angled), breaking a rib on the way in and out, while coming to rest in the offside hide after actually poking a hole through it (the hide).

I took another one at the same velocity, but this time using 50/50 ww/soft. The nose just blows right off of those when using the pentagonal HP configuration. That shot was broadside and the bullet exited after penetrating 10-12 inches. I don't think there will be any trouble at higher velocities. However, my beef with the Mihec pentagonal HP is that it is too deep into the bullet thereby taking too much of the nose with it and not leaving enough shank for penetration after the nose blows off.

This is exactly why I tell people to save hollow points for varmint hunting. I consider this type of performance as bullet failure.

You may be able to grind off some of the hollow pointing plug to reduce the hole.

[outdoorfan]

You may be able to grind off some of the hollow pointing plug to reduce the hole.


I've thought about that, and I may just eventually do it.

[44man]

This is exactly why I tell people to save hollow points for varmint hunting. I consider this type of performance as bullet failure.

You may be able to grind off some of the hollow pointing plug to reduce the hole.
Exactly! [smilie=l: The .44, .475, .480 and .500 JRH needs no hollow point and water dropped WW metal is the way to go. Meplat only does the work but the boolits need around 1300 to 1350 fps for maximum effect. Shot slower will need some expansion as do boolits shot too fast.
I do not understand why anyone buys a large caliber to shoot 900 fps???? :holysheep

[outdoorfan]

Exactly! [smilie=l: The .44, .475, .480 and .500 JRH needs no hollow point and water dropped WW metal is the way to go. Meplat only does the work but the boolits need around 1300 to 1350 fps for maximum effect. Shot slower will need some expansion as do boolits shot too fast.
I do not understand why anyone buys a large caliber to shoot 900 fps???? :holysheep Of course you wouldn't, you hot-rodin son of a gun! :bigsmyl2:

I used to shoot 335 grain wfn's at 1200 fps all the time out of the 4 5/8 barrel. Got tired of the recoil, and worse yet the muzzle blast. So, this year I experimented with a semi-accurate plinking load that would also serve for hunting thin-skinned stuff. Just trying different stuff is all. I might end up going back to those strong loads for hunting. I dunno.

The fact is that those HP's, although only two kills under my belt w/ them, performed pretty well as far as bringing the game down in a timely manner. Especially considering my shot placement wasn't the greatest. :oops:

[44man]

I used to shoot 335 grain wfn's at 1200 fps all the time out of the 4 5/8 barrel. Got tired of the recoil, and worse yet the muzzle blast. So, this year I experimented with a semi-accurate plinking load that would also serve for hunting thin-skinned stuff. Just trying different stuff is all. I might end up going back to those strong loads for hunting. I dunno.

The fact is that those HP's, although only two kills under my belt w/ them, performed pretty well as far as bringing the game down in a timely manner. Especially considering my shot placement wasn't the greatest. :oops:
They will work OK, just reduce the expansion so you always get two holes. Your boolits need very little change to make it right and is why cast is the very best.
I am lazy and don't feel like fooling around with anything else other then what works for me. I find accuracy first, then look for boolit performance without degrading accuracy.

[outdoorfan]

Right, which is why I should perhaps go ahead and grind those pentagonal pins down far enough that when the nose blows off (with 50/50 alloy) that it'll leave 3 drive bands instead of two right now. Of course, I can shoot the other smaller pin HP configuration, but at 900 fps there is almost no expansion whatsoever in water jugs.

[jwp475]

Exactly! [smilie=l: The .44, .475, .480 and .500 JRH needs no hollow point and water dropped WW metal is the way to go. Meplat only does the work but the boolits need around 1300 to 1350 fps for maximum effect. Shot slower will need some expansion as do boolits shot too fast.
I do not understand why anyone buys a large caliber to shoot 900 fps???? :holysheep



Posting BS again, A wide meplat hard cast works perfectly at reduced velocities.

The exit in the rig cage of a 6X7 bull Elk proves the point the velocity of the 440 grain flat point hard cast was about 950 FPS



http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/HuntingPicturesfrom2006061.jpg

[JJC]

What cal is that round JWP? Going off the size of the fingers impressive damage. Is 950 muzzle or impact velocity?

[jwp475]

These pictures of the entrance and exit of a 45 cal hard cast wide meplat at a muzzle velocity of 1150 FPS through at Deers heart were posted on AR by Cottonstalk


http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/45deer010.jpg and now the exit http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/45deer011.jpg


That is a lot of damage and at 200 FPS muzzle velocity less than your recommended 1350 FPS

To suggest that the wide meplat ceases to work at lower velocity is ridiculous IME

[Whitworth]

Exactly! [smilie=l: The .44, .475, .480 and .500 JRH needs no hollow point and water dropped WW metal is the way to go. Meplat only does the work but the boolits need around 1300 to 1350 fps for maximum effect. Shot slower will need some expansion as do boolits shot too fast.
I do not understand why anyone buys a large caliber to shoot 900 fps???? :holysheep

44man, these caliber selections seem rather random. If the .44 (actually .429) works well with a large meplat, so will a .45 -- even more so. The velocity window also seem rather random. At 900 fps on up, the big meplat still does all the damage you could hope for.

[jwp475]

Posted here: http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=69429



#1 11-20-2010, 04:21 PM
Terry Koupe
Beartooth Regular Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 342

hard cast bullets

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At about 15min. after sunrise, I took an 8pt. with a 25yrd. shot from my .44 bisley Hunter. I was shooting a 280gr. WFNGC behind 11.0gr. Unique(maybe 950fps?). Thru both shoulders, just collapsed in his tracks, about a one inch hole. many thanks for advice in developing this load. I try not to do anything I'm not completely sure of, so some of my questions are borderline dumb!! One ting I am sure of: Hard Cast kill Good!!!

[jwp475]

What cal is that round JWP? Going off the size of the fingers impressive damage. Is 950 muzzle or impact velocity?



The cartridge is the 500 JRH and that was muzzle velocity. The impact shuddered the Elk, it was most impressive to me

[outdoorfan]

First picture is the grouse I took with this 45-270-saa bullet (as a solid) at 900 fps muzzle velocity. Hit it at around 60 yards. I was rather impressed with the internal damage at that speed and lack of bone structure to provide resistance. The bird fell out of the tree without so much as a twitch.

The second picture is of a fawn that I hit with the Whelen. The bullet only had around 1300 fps left in it at impact. It sports a .21 meplat, and the exit hole is nickel-sized. The deer bled like crazy, starting within 2-3 yards of impact, and it didn't go more than 30 yards. I should also add that the bullet had a soft nose of around 9-10 bhn, so there probably was a little expansion.

So, although I don't have the vast numbers of kills that the rest of you have, I can attest that a moderate meplat at moderate velocities do seem to work. I used the HP's in the Colt on deer just to see what would happen, as there are many on this forum who encourage their use. I wasn't disappointed, except for the pentagonal HP being too deep.

[44man]

44man, these caliber selections seem rather random. If the .44 (actually .429) works well with a large meplat, so will a .45 -- even more so. The velocity window also seem rather random. At 900 fps on up, the big meplat still does all the damage you could hope for.
Every deer I ever shot with the .45 took longer to die. It does kill but the animal reactions really are different. I think I have taken enough with each caliber to really see the differences.
You would think the larger .45 would kill faster then the .44 mag but it is not so because the .45 is slower at 1160 fps. Take the same weight boolits to 1350 fps in the .45 and I am sure you would see a huge difference.
Put a tiny amount of expansion on the slower .45 boolit and then it will equal the .44 mag. I said TINY, not an explosive hollow point.
It all comes down to matching the alloy to the velocity.
You were here to see the same boolits shot too fast from the 45-70 and the miserable results and also when a softer hollow point was used that destroyed a whole shoulder.
My velocity range is for a harder boolit. They just do not work right too slow or fast. This is why the alloy must be adjusted and why I don't like hunting for a certain velocity only until you understand what the boolit you are using is going to do.
We all agree that it is not the velocity that kills, it is how the boolit works at that velocity you are using so don't expect my WD WW boolits to work at 900 fps. Don't go too soft or explosive to stop penetration either.
The whole thing is that a cast boolit can be made to do anything and you need to look hard at it. One boolit can do it all if made right for each velocity.
However, some changes will remove accuracy and/or cause barrel leading. I base what I shoot only on accuracy first.
It irks me that the .45 shoots best with a boolit not quit right for deer. It really needs a two part boolit. Hard drive bands and a softer nose for a tad of expansion. A 50-50 boolit with a gas check and oven hardened will also work. Many solutions.
I just don't know why guys argue because it is BOOLIT WORK, BOOLIT WORK!
The point is that the .44, .475, .480 and the .500 JRH falls into the perfect range so hard and accurate boolits work as good or better then anything else you can shoot. Change the velocities and you need to change the alloys. I refuse to change to what will not be accurate. I do not shoot at huge animals up close where accuracy does not matter. There is nothing "GOOD ENOUGH" unless you have grenades with 100# deer out to 100 yards.
Whitworth, do you want me to make some dead soft hollow points for your .500 JRH? How about your .475? I know darn well you believe in what I say.

[jwp475]

Your experience is exactly that, but in no way is it my experience and if what you claim were true then it would be everyone experience. I have never ever had a 44 show itself to be as high on the food chain as a 45 and Never ever seen one kill faster in fact just the opposite has been the norm and that is all with hard cast bullets.

[jtaylor1960]

If you have never read it I would suggest reading Veral Smith's book on cast bullets.While I haven't gotten to try his ideas on the subject in person some of the above posts show how effective a bullet of proper meplat and velocity can be on game.

[Whitworth]

Every deer I ever shot with the .45 took longer to die. It does kill but the animal reactions really are different. I think I have taken enough with each caliber to really see the differences.
You would think the larger .45 would kill faster then the .44 mag but it is not so because the .45 is slower at 1160 fps. Take the same weight boolits to 1350 fps in the .45 and I am sure you would see a huge difference.
Put a tiny amount of expansion on the slower .45 boolit and then it will equal the .44 mag. I said TINY, not an explosive hollow point.
It all comes down to matching the alloy to the velocity.
You were here to see the same boolits shot too fast from the 45-70 and the miserable results and also when a softer hollow point was used that destroyed a whole shoulder.
My velocity range is for a harder boolit. They just do not work right too slow or fast. This is why the alloy must be adjusted and why I don't like hunting for a certain velocity only until you understand what the boolit you are using is going to do.
We all agree that it is not the velocity that kills, it is how the boolit works at that velocity you are using so don't expect my WD WW boolits to work at 900 fps. Don't go too soft or explosive to stop penetration either.
The whole thing is that a cast boolit can be made to do anything and you need to look hard at it. One boolit can do it all if made right for each velocity.
However, some changes will remove accuracy and/or cause barrel leading. I base what I shoot only on accuracy first.
It irks me that the .45 shoots best with a boolit not quit right for deer. It really needs a two part boolit. Hard drive bands and a softer nose for a tad of expansion. A 50-50 boolit with a gas check and oven hardened will also work. Many solutions.
I just don't know why guys argue because it is BOOLIT WORK, BOOLIT WORK!
The point is that the .44, .475, .480 and the .500 JRH falls into the perfect range so hard and accurate boolits work as good or better then anything else you can shoot. Change the velocities and you need to change the alloys. I refuse to change to what will not be accurate. I do not shoot at huge animals up close where accuracy does not matter. There is nothing "GOOD ENOUGH" unless you have grenades with 100# deer out to 100 yards.
Whitworth, do you want me to make some dead soft hollow points for your .500 JRH? How about your .475? I know darn well you believe in what I say.

I don't agree with the narrow velocity window. You know that we always develop our loads for accuarcy first, and only chronograph when we are done. The velocity is where it is and we never load up or down to meet any "limit." I don't need expansion in the .475 or .500 because these calibers come "pre-expanded," so to speak. The nose profile doesn't give a rat's backside if it encounters flesh at 1,100 or 1,300 fps. It's do its damage either way. I feel the window is wider. I am not advocating for high velocity (1,500), but I think these bullets work really well at 1,200 fps too.

[jwp475]

Every deer I ever shot with the .45 took longer to die. It does kill but the animal reactions really are different. I think I have taken enough with each caliber to really see the differences.
You would think the larger .45 would kill faster then the .44 mag but it is not so because the .45 is slower at 1160 fps. Take the same weight boolits to 1350 fps in the .45 and I am sure you would see a huge difference.
Put a tiny amount of expansion on the slower .45 boolit and then it will equal the .44 mag. I said TINY, not an explosive hollow point.
It all comes down to matching the alloy to the velocity.
.



You claim that a HARD cast 45 caliber wide meplat bullet doesn't work unless the velocity is high. Well I find this very difficult to believe.

Let's look at the damage to the heart of the Deer that Cottonstalk shot with a HARD cast bullet fired from a 45 colt at 1150 FPS muzzle velocity

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/45deer011.jpg


Looks like a large enough wound to cause rapid incapacitation and it did according to Cottonstalk.

You claim the 45-70 BFR that you own doesn't kill well because it is too fast. You claim a 45 colt doesn't kill well because it is too slow. On the other hand you claim a 44 (.429) kills well because it is fast. You talk in circles and your logic doesn't connect the dots

[outdoorfan]

I think Jim has defined what is, in his experience, to be too fast, and that being over 1400 fps. His .44 load falls below that. The 45-70 is above it. The .45 Colt is way below it.

[jwp475]

I think Jim has defined what is, in his experience, to be too fast, and that being over 1400 fps. His .44 load falls below that. The 45-70 is above it. The .45 Colt is way below it.

Yet he claims the 45 Colt doesn't kill as well as a 44 mag because it is slower?? Explain that

[outdoorfan]

'Cause he runs the .45 around 1160 and the .44 around 1350, if I understand him correctly.

[jwp475]

'Cause he runs the .45 around 1160 and the .44 around 1350, if I understand him correctly.

And at 1150 FPS how was this 45 Colt ineffective


http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/45deer010.jpg

and now the exit

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/45deer011.jpg


Explain how that is ineffective.. More velocity would not have caused incapacitation any faster. Once the damage is enough to bring the blood pressure to zero more damage will not cause faster incapacitation

Enough damage is simply that, enough and more is not will not incapacitate faster

[outdoorfan]

And at 1150 FPS how was this 45 Colt ineffective


http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/45deer010.jpg

and now the exit

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/45deer011.jpg


Explain how that is ineffective.. More velocity would not have caused incapacitation any faster. Once the damage is enough to bring the blood pressure to zero more damage will not cause faster incapacitation

Enough damage is simply that, enough and more is not will not incapacitate faster


Yep, works pretty darn well! :D

[RobS]

It does look like the job as been done well on that heart shot pic. The thing is when a person has shot so many live animals and in particular the same species of animal over a long hall they come around full circle. I myself am not there; others who have are simply more knowledgeable. All wild animals have an innate ability to "live" and do things that make a person shake their head over and over.

Coyotes are some unbelievable animals and are tough as any animal I've ever seen; they'll fight to the last breath to just get the heck away from a person. We use to hunt them by pickup and I’ve seen several that have had enough lead pumped into them with buck shot I could have loaded up a box of 45 auto and yet they continue to run for miles.

44man has been at if for so long and has put down more deer than most of us could imagine, heck he could fill pickup loads full probably. The way I read things, he is not saying that a 45 isn't capable of doing the job well he is saying after all the years of hunting he feels a solid boolit of big bore caliber with a large meplat moving along at 1300 to 1400 fps has worked the best for him. He's shot Keiths, HP's, Jacketed, soft boolits, hard boolits, GC boolits, PB boolits and the list goes on and on so he has experience with load development. His real life observations on game are what move him to choose the calibers he shoots, boolits he uses and velocities he pushes. Although there are many principles that 44man and I share we don't see everything eye to eye and that's ok I still value his opinion as wisdom is hard to deny.

Others here who have shot their share of game do it differently and work a different approach and are successful as well. Many respected forum members fall into this category. Some use softer solids at moderate velocities, others use real soft HP’s at slow velocities and it all works out. What is best, well that is up to the individual person and their experiences that direct such decisions. A person who has never shot a cast boolit believes that a jacketed bullet may be the optimal choice for shooting game. A person that hasn’t worked loads in every which direction and doesn’t have a good amount of real life experience can’t really comment on what is better or not IMO. For me to say I shot a deer with a 240 grain boolit at such and such velocity from a 45 colt and it dropped like a rock, but I have only shot a few deer in my life with only one style of bullet and the same load is not really a good realm for justification to my caliber selection or my reload. You can shoot a deer in the face with a 22 and it will drop dead in its tracks...................99% percent of the time.

[waksupi]

Yet he claims the 45 Colt doesn't kill as well as a 44 mag because it is slower?? Explain that

I would just say, you will need to kill as many deer as he has with pistols, to have the same frame of reference.

[jwp475]

I would just say, you will need to kill as many deer as he has with pistols, to have the same frame of reference.

I've killed a hell of a lot of game with a revolver and I have a reference.

[jwp475]

1- It does look like the job as been done well on that heart shot pic.

2- A person that hasn’t worked loads in every which direction and doesn’t have a good amount of real life experience can’t really comment on what is better or not IMO.

3- For me to say I shot a deer with a 240 grain boolit at such and such velocity from a 45 colt and it dropped like a rock, but I have only shot a few deer in my life with only one style of bullet and the same load is not really a good realm for justification to my caliber selection or my reload.


1- There is no doubt t is very effective at 1150 FPS muzzle velocity it worked very well and is proof that the 45 Colt works very well

2- 44man ain't the only person to kill Deer

3- If your load works well you can say that it works well with certainty that it has worked well for you. If the load eaves a good wound channel and penetrates well you can say that with certainty

4- A good Meplat works at all velocities not simply in one velocity window

[winelover]

My way of thinking is that if you push a 45 LC to 44 Mag velocities, the 45 should have a slight edge just because of the larger diameter! Of course, we're talking same boolet style, same alloy and same weight. BTW, I load for both.

Winelover:popcorn:

[USSR]

Not to interject myself in any kind of pissin' match, but, DEER AIN'T HARD TO KILL! Have personally killed them with everything from .22 to .70 caliber. You simply place a suitable bullet in a suitable spot and - Voila, venison.

Don

[jwp475]

My way of thinking is that if you push a 45 LC to 44 Mag velocities, the 45 should have a slight edge just because of the larger diameter! Of course, we're talking same boolet style, same alloy and same weight. BTW, I load for both.

Winelover:popcorn:

The 45 works well at a lot about any velocity. I shot a hog at 218 yards with a 325 grain flat point hard cast and it knocked him over like a gallery target. How fast do you think it was going when it hit?


I took this Caribou at 150 yards with a 45 Colt and a 310 grain LFN at 1250 FPS muzzle velocity and it flat out got the job done quickly
And the bullet had slowed a bit don't you think?

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/00000003.jpg

[jwp475]

I would just say, you will need to kill as many deer as he has with pistols, to have the same frame of reference.

I've taken Deer with the 45 ACP and it worked very well. Amazing since it isn't fast as a 44 mag

Basic logic, if the 45 ACP is effective, then the 45 Colt is as well

[44man]

The fellas said it well. The .45 does kill, never said it didn't. It seems to take a minute or so longer for them to bleed out. They tend to jump when hit, then walk a little, stand there or lie down. I have to wait for them to die.
I have said getting a little expansion will speed things up in the .45 but none is needed in the .44, etc. I feel the little more velocity of the .44 disrupts a wider wound.
Now I am talking a heavy boolit in the .45 so if you use a lighter boolit and get the velocity up some more, then you will see a difference. Take a 255 gr boolit to around 1300 fps and you then have a magnum and can go to a hard boolit.
It has been hard to get across that the heavy boolits I use will not go that fast.
Though I don't believe in energy figures there is still a sweet spot for hard lead, WD WW's work just fine if shot in the sweet spot. Drop too far below or too far above and then you just need to put the boolit to work.
I just don't know why anyone argues over it. I am only talking about the alloys used at different velocities.

[44man]

I have only one disagreement with JWP. A wide meplat does NOT work at all velocities.
Too slow and the pressure wave in an animal flows along the boolit sides. Just right will expand the pressure wave and disrupt more tissue.
Too fast and the wave will move tissue out of the way of the boolit path. Wow, is that hard to understand! :groner:
The solution is to make the nose disrupt, spread the wave with the slow boolit and slow the too fast boolit inside the animal. The too fast boolit when disrupted will then bring the wave back to the most destructive point.
Sure, the .45 ACP will kill deer but I know a 230 gr round nose FMJ was not used.
Even a .357 is a good deer killer IF THE RIGHT BULLET IS CHOSEN.
Too many argue apples and grapes just to argue.

[45nut]

I just don't know why anyone argues over it.

..ditto !

[jwp475]

I have only one disagreement with JWP. A wide meplat does NOT work at all velocities.
Too slow and the pressure wave in an animal flows along the boolit sides. Just right will expand the pressure wave and disrupt more tissue.
Too fast and the wave will move tissue out of the way of the boolit path. Wow, is that hard to understand! :groner:
The solution is to make the nose disrupt, spread the wave with the slow boolit and slow the too fast boolit inside the animal. The too fast boolit when disrupted will then bring the wave back to the most destructive point.
Sure, the .45 ACP will kill deer but I know a 230 gr round nose FMJ was not used.
Even a .357 is a good deer killer IF THE RIGHT BULLET IS CHOSEN.
Too many argue apples and grapes just to argue.

Pressure wave, I don't think you have a clue as to what you are talking about. Never read where Duncan MacPherson or Dr. Martin Fackler mention anything about a "pressure wave flowing around a bullet"

The time that it takes to totally incapacitate an animal is much more related to shot placement than anything else.
Yes the meplat does it's job at all velocity. Adding velocity can only increase hydraulic pressure and in the next breath you want to tell us that your 45-70 doesn't kill well because it is too faster
According to you the 45 needs"some magical" speed which is logic defying to put it mildly. Just as your claims that the FA83 is junk is also logic defying to say the least

[jwp475]

I have only one disagreement with JWP. A wide meplat does NOT work at all velocities.
Too slow and the pressure wave in an animal flows along the boolit sides. Just right will expand the pressure wave and disrupt more tissue.
Too fast and the wave will move tissue out of the way of the boolit path. Wow, is that hard to understand! :groner:
The solution is to make the nose disrupt, spread the wave with the slow boolit and slow the too fast boolit inside the animal. The too fast boolit when disrupted will then bring the wave back to the most destructive point.
Sure, the .45 ACP will kill deer but I know a 230 gr round nose FMJ was not used. Even a .357 is a good deer killer IF THE RIGHT BULLET IS CHOSEN.
Too many argue apples and grapes just to argue.




So you do admit that the meplat is important and does work at the subdued speeds. If the meplat didn't work at the subdued speed then a round nose would be just as effective. Just more of your logic that doesn't connect. Your continual talking is circles takes away from from credibility is these discussions as does your use of term that are technically incorrect and one that you have no clue as to what they mean


Get yourself a copy of this book and learn

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/DuncanMacPhearson.jpg

[RobS]

1- There is no doubt t is very effective at 1150 FPS muzzle velocity it worked very well and is proof that the 45 Colt works very well

2- 44man ain't the only person to kill Deer

3- If your load works well you can say that it works well with certainty that it has worked well for you. If the load eaves a good wound channel and penetrates well you can say that with certainty

4- A good Meplat works at all velocities not simply in one velocity window


jwp475:

Where as I see your point and I stated it in my post a few times, once directly with the opening sentence and then later
Others here who have shot their share of game do it differently and work a different approach and are successful as well. Many respected forum members fall into this category. You sir fall into this category obviously.

You also state again that the 45 colt kills well and I already said that there is more than one way to skin a cat, but let me go again.
Others here who have shot their share of game do it differently and work a different approach and are successful as well..

You say that if a load works well that you can say it works well with certainty. Once again you are right, however just because it worked once doesn't mean it will the same next time. I stated that wild animals do some crazy things, very crazy. The more experience a person has regarding this subject the more a person understands which loads work best for them as to what they are working with. You have what works for you down and that is great.

I was never attacking you for heavens sakes so I hope you can calm down a bit now. :sad:

[white eagle]

wow
seems in both respects the animals were dead
nice job fellas
don't matter what kinda hammer you use to do it now does it ?

[RobS]

dead is dead.................now how dead is dead is the question [smilie=l:

[jwp475]

jwp475:

Where as I see your point and I stated it in my post a few times, once directly with the opening sentence and then later You sir fall into this category obviously.

You also state again that the 45 colt kills well and I already said that there is more than one way to skin a cat, but let me go again.

You say that if a load works well that you can say it works well with certainty. Once again you are right, however just because it worked once doesn't mean it will the same next time. I stated that wild animals do some crazy things, very crazy. The more experience a person has regarding this subject the more a person understands which loads work best for them as to what they are working with. You have what works for you down and that is great.

I was never attacking you for heavens sakes so I hope you can calm down a bit now. :sad:
If a wide meplat bullet leave a large wound channel and has adequate penetration, then it will be repeatable from animal to animal. Animal reaction may vary a bit, but IMHO&E that is more a shot placement issue than a bullet issues.
I will be 60 in January and have taken a lot of game with a handgun and I study wound ballistics and wound trauma incapacitation as a hobby. I am also a field tester for a firearms company and have been on the editing committee for a major bullet makers reloading manual. I only mention this to give you a bit of my background.


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/thumb.gif

[44man]

Seems to me every rifle bullet is designed around the velocity it will be used at and the size of the game to be hunted. Bullet makers have spent generations trying to get one to work for everything from the 30-30 to the largest whiz bang magnum with little success. A bullet made for moose or elephant can poke a little hole in a deer and a deer bullet has a little problem with an elephant.
But a WLN or WFN is magic and works on every animal at any velocity.
I have to look at my guns with wonder! They are better then rifles! :bigsmyl2:
So if I understand all of this, I can take one hard WFN boolit and shoot the same size deer in exactly the same place at 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1100 and so on up to maybe 2000 fps and every deer will drop stone dead and not show any difference in internal damage.
Wow, amazing isn't it?
Size of the animal shot with any certain boolit at a certain velocity is also talking apples and grapes. OOPS, forgot, a .45 ACP should be good buf, griz and elephant medicine, after all it will kill a deer! :violin:

[jwp475]

That's right a favorite tactic of those that are losing with the facts, is to change the argument. This is not about rifles or grizzly or buff with a 45 ACP, now is it is about Deer with with 44, 45 , 475, 500 handguns with hardcast bullets and we are not talking about pushing them about there structural limitations. The dicussion is about the 45's ability to kill as well as a 44 equally, more so or less


Stick to the subject

You crack me up ....http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/ROFLMAO-smiley.gif

[Bass Ackward]

I used to use a lot of high velocity, 45 rifle on deer with hard cast and now have all of my designs with no more than a 60% meplat. At 60 % I can run any velocity. If I have a wider meplat, then I either have to cut velocity or carry tennis shoes.

So you can call it a wave action or anything else that you want, it doesn't matter the science for failure, just that it occurs. You can do too much and get less.

A doctor once explained it as massive cell damage that rips the cells apart and produces a natural clotting agent. The massive wound is effectively sealed and bypassed long enough to give you headaches and no blood trail.

Buy it or not, I have seen it many times. Enough that I now use a 35 for everything and it hasn't been too much to date. Had one deer once go 200 yards with the heart blown clear out of the chest with a 45 LBT LFN. I mean totally gone out of a hole you could drop a soft ball in on the off side.

Yet 1300 fps with a soft bullet or a hard and wide almost never fails. And if it does, you can track it on the 4th of July.

[outdoorfan]

Had one deer once go 200 yards with the heart blown clear out of the chest with a 45 LBT LFN. I mean totally gone out of a hole you could drop a soft ball in on the off side. I assume you're still referring to rifle velocities here, right?

Yet 1300 fps with a soft bullet or a hard and wide almost never fails. And if it does, you can track it on the 4th of July.

If I'm reading you right, you're saying that your .45 rifle bullets get 60% meplats, but that you're not afraid to go 70-80% at 1300 fps for handguns.

[USSR]

dead is dead.................now how dead is dead is the question [smilie=l:

True. There's sorta dead, dead, and really dead. Big difference.:groner:

Don

[Bass Ackward]

If I'm reading you right, you're saying that your .45 rifle bullets get 60% meplats, but that you're not afraid to go 70-80% at 1300 fps for handguns.

Jon,

Sorta, there is a caveat.

The magic level or borderline from my experience "on deer" is somewhere between 1 1/2" and 2" exit.

While I have reached that many times with rifles, I have never went above a 1 1/2" exit with a handgun unless I hit bone. And hit big bone and the argument is mute cause he ain't going anywhere that you can't follow anyway.

My personal philosophy is, if a 70% meplat isn't adequate with a handgun or a rifle, then I need a heavier bullet launched by a bigger cartridge from a bigger bore, not a wider meplat.

So you know.

[gon2shoot]

Why do we have threads take this direction? Anybody that has shot more than a few rounds out of a couple different guns knows they dont act the same.

Even guns of the same cal. shooting the same boolit will produce different results. Different cals will most certainly shoot different, BUT ,IF THE DESIRED RESULTS ARE ACHIEVED, WHO CARES!

I'm tellin ya guys, I'm tired of hearing this "my dad can whup your dad " stuff.

Grow up, if a boolit works, great. If you have somthing that works, great. I cast boolits because I enjoy it, I could give a rats patoot if I'm like everyone else.

Now for you guys that have boolits that work good for you, congrats. May you have many sucessful hunts.

[jwp475]

These thread go this way when some one make an outlandish claim. Like the 45 Colt doesn't kill well because it's too slow and then claims the 45-70 doesn't kill well because it is too fast.

No 2 animals react the same way to being shot unless CNS is disrupted

[Bass Ackward]

[QUOTE=jwp475;1084581]These thread go this way when some one make an outlandish claim. Like the 45 Colt doesn't kill well because it's too slow and then claims the 45-70 doesn't kill well because it is too fast.


Both of those comparisons can actually be true. And it can depend on where you hunt. See with hard cast we shouldn't even talk caliber or launching platform.

I test my loads using water jugs for visual confirmation of what I am loading. I test for a certain reactions developed from kills that were produced over my lifetime. So everything works, everything fails.

My max range test is that the first jug must blow and the second burst. This is my max range test. When it fails, I have exceeded the range my combination will work regardless of what caliber / platform launched it.

My max reaction test is to blow three jugs. This sets the minimum distance. Every caliber can have a minimum and a maximum range where it will pass my limit testing.

This year I used a hard cast 260 gr LBT LFN (70% meplat) at 930 fps muzzle. (45 AR revolver) The testing was that it had no minimum range and a max range of 40 yards to produce what I consider acceptable. Longer range than that and the kill would be total bleed out and lost deer in this brush.

My 458X2 at 2100 fps with a 70% hard cast meplat has a minimum range of about 80 yards and a max of around 165.

So if I had a deer at 60 yards, the old Colt standard would be too slow and the 45 rifle too fast. Unless I changed my meplat size or velocity combination. I can't with the 45AR platform combo as it is running wide open as it is. But I can cut my meplat or velocity on the 45 rifle and make 70 yards work.

My point is that we have been marketed to for years to think in terms of guns and calibers. With jacketed, (expansion) you can do that but they still have limits. Just wider because of expansion.

When it comes to hard cast, you are better off testing your combo instead of arguing caliber performance. Everything works, everything fails and those problems are us, not the calibers or platforms.

That's why these statements cause emotion when they really should not. Are we talking the 45 Colt? Or some jacked up version? Everything works, everything fails. Question is 1) did you test for it so that you know? and 2) are the limits you obtained usable for your conditions in the field? Where I hunt, a fast 45 rifle is generally useless unless I go way soft on the slug and or slow way down.

[44man]

Thank you Bass, you are correct.
The problem has cropped up with what I shoot and JWP just will never understand what I am saying. I think he likes to argue.
First it is with deer and double lung hits, no bone or spine.
Second it is with heavy WLN or WFN boolits cast hard, WD or oven hardened.
.45, 335 gr boolit at 1160 fps.
.44 with 320 to 330 gr boolit at 1350 fps.
45-70 with a 330 gr boolit at 1632 fps.
The question is, what kills faster and does more internal damage from this choice?
Second question is what do you need to do with the slow and fast boolits to make them kill the same or better then the .44?
The question has NEVER been to claim the .45 is poor or the .44 is better. It has only been about the boolits and the velocity where the hard boolit works best.
To think you can take a hard, non-deforming boolit to a higher velocity and kill deer better turns out to be wrong. Why would anyone bring much larger animals into the question?

[jwp475]

That is the beauty of the wide meplat flat point hard cast bullet it works perfectly without the need to expand . As long as the bullets are not driven fast enough to detroy there integrity.

44 man in other threads you claim that the 45-70 revovler is too fast and dpoesn't kill well. And your "magic velocit" Need "Pixie Dust" to make the 45 caliber works is total nonsense.

I have used the 45 ACP on Deer aqnd with a lung shot the lungs looked like a rifle bullet had passed through them instead of a subbsonic 45 caliber bullet.

If what you claim were true then it would be a problem for every one and it simply is not.

Acusing me of simply wanting to argue is more of your total nonsense. A statement like that come from a gut that has psoted and argued for pages of bandwidth the the FA-83 is a ***. Take a look in the mirror DUDE

YOu can post picutres and I think we would all like to see this lack of damage from a 335 grain WFN bullet at 1150. I posted a picture of the damage of a 45 caliber hard cast bullet at 1150 and it was not minimal in the least. did it have Pixie Dust on it.

Again 45 at 1150

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/45deer010.jpg

and now the exit

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/45deer011.jpg


There ain't know way that a 44 bullet in the same location is going to kill quicker or through the lungs for that matter.
I've shot too much game and studied too much about wound trauma Incapacitation bto buy into total nonsense

[jwp475]

Bass Ackward your water jug test is showing bullet intergity up close and the drop in hydraulic pressure at distance caused by diminisingg velcoity and in no way indicates the max effective distance a bullet will work

I have taken game as form away as 219 laser yards awya with a 45 Colt and the animal went down at the hit and was most certainly not lost.
Theory that doesn't pan out in the real world

There are naby bullet makers that claim to make LBT bullet. Veral Smith the owner of LBT bullet has specific requirements for LFN and WFN bullet and trus LBT bullets have a larger Mepalt than 70%

[44man]

And this is what my "sweet spot" does.

[44man]

LBT factory boolits are not as hard as I shoot. My boolits will not deform, break or expand no matter what they hit.
This is what you don't get John.
Pete shot a deer at long range with an LBT from his .44 and one side of the nose rubbed off on heavy shoulder bone, turned 30* and went all the way through the guts to wind up under the hide in the butt.
Even expansion is good but to tip a boolit from uneven damage is not good.
Do I see a huge difference between a WLN and WFN----NO, not really. You don't need a big meplat, just shoot it at the proper velocity.
The real truth is that a WFN shot too fast will do less damage then a WLN at the right velocity.
I think you have Bass and me against you now. :kidding:

[white eagle]

If you get by the ego's you guys have a bunch of useful information
I for one appreciate
thank you
we just need to get along

[44man]

If you get by the ego's you guys have a bunch of useful information
I for one appreciate
thank you
we just need to get along
True but JWP is mad at me for something and will not give it up. I am not mad at him and wish he would stop. It makes it hard for others to understand things.
That is why I push back, I don't want a new hunter to have the wrong ideas and use the wrong boolit.

[jwp475]

I won't give it up, because that is what is wrong with the shooting and hunting sports and that is too much BS and not facts

[jwp475]

LBT factory boolits are not as hard as I shoot. My boolits will not deform, break or expand no matter what they hit.
This is what you don't get John.
Pete shot a deer at long range with an LBT from his .44 and one side of the nose rubbed off on heavy shoulder bone, turned 30* and went all the way through the guts to wind up under the hide in the butt.
Even expansion is good but to tip a boolit from uneven damage is not good.
Do I see a huge difference between a WLN and WFN----NO, not really. You don't need a big meplat, just shoot it at the proper velocity.
The real truth is that a WFN shot too fast will do less damage then a WLN at the right velocity.
I think you have Bass and me against you now. :kidding:




More incorrect info. LBT makes molds and bullet lube, etc and does not make bullets.

My bullets were casted and dropped into water out of the mold to quench and harden. They worked well.

The only way that a hard cast bullet is too hard is if it shatters on bone, etc other than that this too hard to work is more incorrect drivel.

Veral Smith is the creator and owner of LBT. Others have ripped off the name LBT and claim to make LBT like bullets, without adhering to the requirement as set forth by Veral several decades ago

Veral has a forum on Grey Beard Outdoors forums called ask Veral a question that is very informative

OK what is the MAGIC VELOCITY, or is PIXIE DUST needed to make the 45 caliber work????

Facts are a wonderfull tool try them sometime!

[jwp475]

LBT factory boolits are not as hard as I shoot. My boolits will not deform, break or expand no matter what they hit.

More BS, a hard cast buck that will not deform in any shape or fashion no matter what. That is totally incorrect. Unless of course you are using that PIXIE DUST again


This is what you don't get John.
Pete shot a deer at long range with an LBT from his .44 and one side of the nose rubbed off on heavy shoulder bone, turned 30* and went all the way through the guts to wind up under the hide in the butt.
Even expansion is good but to tip a boolit from uneven damage is not good.


Do I see a huge difference between a WLN and WFN----NO, not really. You don't need a big meplat, just shoot it at the proper velocity.

More incorrect info from drawing flawed conclusions based on faulty observation

The real truth is that a WFN shot too fast will do less damage then a WLN at the right velocity.
I think you have Bass and me against you now. :kidding:

Another reference to the "MAGIC VELOCITY" for the 45 caliber.

Your logic and conclusions are extremely flawed. Increasing the velocity increase the amount of hydraulic pressure and will most certainly be more destructive to lung tissue.

More BS from the master

Do you have any pictures that backs up your absurd claims???



..............................http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/confused.gif

[waksupi]

JWP, you need to find a different tone for addressing people. This one isn't going to work.

[RobS]

JWP, you need to find a different tone for addressing people. This one isn't going to work.

Agreed

[44man]

More incorrect info. LBT makes molds and bullet lube, etc and does not make bullets.

My bullets were casted and dropped into water out of the mold to quench and harden. They worked well.

The only way that a hard cast bullet is too hard is if it shatters on bone, etc other than that this too hard to work is more incorrect drivel.

Veral Smith is the creator and owner of LBT. Others have ripped off the name LBT and claim to make LBT like bullets, without adhering to the requirement as set forth by Veral several decades ago

Veral has a forum on Grey Beard Outdoors forums called ask Veral a question that is very informative

OK what is the MAGIC VELOCITY, or is PIXIE DUST needed to make the 45 caliber work????

Facts are a wonderfull tool try them sometime!
This is not so. Makers of LBT boolits use LBT molds. Cast Performance boolits run 14.5 BHN ( measured with the LBT tester) while mine run a minimum of 22 BHN.
No pixie dust, run a hard cast, 335 gr, 22 bhn boolit at 1350 fps from the .45 and magic happens but I doubt you can make the boolit that fast from a revolver so why not make the boolit expand a little?
I quit, I will not fight and argue any more. It is bad for everyone else.
I apologize to everyone for letting it get to this point.

[jwp475]

This is not so. Makers of LBT boolits use LBT molds. Cast Performance boolits run 14.5 BHN ( measured with the LBT tester) while mine run a minimum of 22 BHN.
No pixie dust, run a hard cast, 335 gr, 22 bhn boolit at 1350 fps from the .45 and magic happens but I doubt you can make the boolit that fast from a revolver so why not make the boolit expand a little?
I quit, I will not fight and argue any more. It is bad for everyone else.
I apologize to everyone for letting it get to this point.



No 44man it is true, all LBT like hard cast bullets are not made with LBT molds.

I now for a fact that Cast Performance does not use LBT molds. The owner is a friend of mine and has my 500 JRH BFR at this very moment developing and testing the factory loads that he is offering for them.
Cast Performance offers LBT"Style" bullets that do not meet the same dimensions that a "true LBT' bullet will from a mold made by Veral Smith the owner of LBT

[jwp475]

And this is what my "sweet spot" does.

That is a picture of terminal damage from a 475 and that is not the caliber being discussed at this time

[44man]

That is a picture of terminal damage from a 475 and that is not the caliber being discussed at this time
Makes no difference, the .44 does the same as does the .500 JRH.
One of my .44 boolits went through an entire deer lengthwise this season and a pile of meat was lost from a ham. A ragged mess that looked like the heart I showed.

[44man]

No 44man it is true, all LBT like hard cast bullets are not made with LBT molds.

I now for a fact that Cast Performance does not use LBT molds. The owner is a friend of mine and has my 500 JRH BFR at this very moment developing and testing the factory loads that he is offering for them.
Cast Performance offers LBT"Style" bullets that do not meet the same dimensions that a "true LBT' bullet will from a mold made by Veral Smith the owner of LBT
My Cast Performance boxes say LBT Series, not style. Besides the point, they are so close you can't tell me any difference and it does not matter that much anyway.

[jwp475]

My Cast Performance boxes say LBT Series, not style. Besides the point, they are so close you can't tell me any difference and it does not matter that much anyway.

What maters is the fact of what was stated and that was that LBT bullets are soft. If infact you mean Cast Performance bullets, then that is what you need to post.

I beg to differ the difference can big huge indeed. Cast performance once offered a 435 grain .510 diameter bullet and marked it as an LFN LBT stylke bullet. The Meplat was between a LFN and a WFN, but the nose lenght was shorter and the radiuos was greater and theis bullet yaw and tumbled and the straight line penetration was terrible. I know because I field tested them and a correction has been made

[Bullshop]

This info may be of a little help. When S&W came out with the 500 a friend bought one right away. All he could find for ammo was from Corbon. The info with the ammo said it was loaded with a Cast Performance boolit. We pulled one and I tested it with an LBT tester and it tested right at BHN 20.
Not saying all there boolits are that but the one single one that I tested was BHN 20.

[jwp475]

This info may be of a little help. When S&W came out with the 500 a friend bought one right away. All he could find for ammo was from Corbon. The info with the ammo said it was loaded with a Cast Performance boolit. We pulled one and I tested it with an LBT tester and it tested right at BHN 20.
Not saying all there boolits are that but the one single one that I tested was BHN 20.

Nothing wrong with that number IMHO&E. I know that John Linebaugh believes that there is little to be gained over 1200 FPS with any of the big bores and I am inclined to agree with him....

[waksupi]

What maters is the fact of what was stated and that was that LBT bullets are soft. If infact you mean Cast Performance bullets, then that is what you need to post.

I beg to differ the difference can big huge indeed. Cast performance once offered a 435 grain .510 diameter bullet and marked it as an LFN LBT stylke bullet. The Meplat was between a LFN and a WFN, but the nose lenght was shorter and the radiuos was greater and theis bullet yaw and tumbled and the straight line penetration was terrible. I know because I field tested them and a correction has been made


Nice change. Thank you very much.

[Bass Ackward]

This isn't me for or against anybody. Certainly not for a silly argument. There are others that follow these ...... squabbles / posts.

It is simply what I have observed and why I test like I do.

Look, I was a big fan of the 45 Colt back in the 60s when I hot roded it before handgun hunting or loading it up was fashionable. Can't tell you how many deer it has taken exactly, but it's safe to say it's triple digits. I even remember my load was 13.3 grains of Unique with a 454190. That is / was sticky on the cases. That is one BIG advantage to those tapered, big chambered Colts. You can expand them cases and still get them out. :grin:

My idea of testing isn't original either. Veral gave me the idea a couple of decades back. I just used my experience to develop what works for me.

[tek4260]

Not trying to stir the pot here, but my 325gr 45 Colt loads outrun my 300gr 44 Mag loads by about 70fps. Both fired from 4 5/8 Blackhawks. And 1350fps is a hard number to reach in either of them with heavy booilts. At least that's what my Chrony tells me. The velocities are from 3 different 44's and 9 45's so the "fast barrel" theory doesn't apply in this case.

So how does one get to 1300+ honestly?

[jwp475]

According to John Linebaugh one gains very little past 1200 FPS. Dustin Linebaugh Killed an Alaskan Grizzly at 168 yards (if memory serves on the distance) with a load that produced 1200 FPS at the chronograph. Dustin was using a 475. I speak with John on a regular basis and have since 1985 and over the years John has decided that anything over 1200 FPS gains nothing in the field on game and higher velocity only makes the gun harder to shoot accurately because of the additional recoil. I agree with John on this 100 &

[outdoorfan]

With my 4 5/8 barrel Ruger BH I can reach 1200 or so with 23.5 grains H110, a CCI 350 primer, and a 335-340 grain LBT wfn. I suppose that is about what a short barrel can do.

[44man]

With my 4 5/8 barrel Ruger BH I can reach 1200 or so with 23.5 grains H110, a CCI 350 primer, and a 335-340 grain LBT wfn. I suppose that is about what a short barrel can do.
I can up the velocity too but will not give up the accuracy point. Never made sense to me to just find velocity. I found 21.5 gr of 296 was the best in both calibers with the heavy boolits except the 330 gr in the .44 does best with 21 gr. I started using the .44 this season with 5 shots, killed three deer and have 2 shots left.
This is really a senseless argument anyway, any of the guns can and will kill. I just give my observations with each with double lung hits. I prefer for everyone to make their own observations---INSIDE THE DEER. Since I only have discussed harder boolits, it would be silly to include all alloys in the assessment.
Just a change in the alloy can destroy a deer with each caliber. My suggestions to change the alloy with each velocity has turned into a knock down, drag out battle that has resulted in profanity.
I refuse to go that route and will just post my observations from my deer kills. I can not post buf or large animals either.
Deer are small, not much space between ribs but they can be real stubborn to give it up. Easy to go from a tiny hole poked through to a mess of jelly.
Here is the accuracy of the .45 Colt with a boolit a little too hard for deer, shot at 50 yards. Yes, I have dropped deer stone cold dead at 100 yards but that is dependent on the hit.
Then what a change in alloy with a gun too fast for a hard boolit can do. Hard pokes a hole but a change destroyed the whole shoulder.
Make your own decisions.

[jwp475]

I can up the velocity too but will not give up the accuracy point. Never made sense to me to just find velocity. I found 21.5 gr of 296 was the best in both calibers with the heavy boolits except the 330 gr in the .44 does best with 21 gr. I started using the .44 this season with 5 shots, killed three deer and have 2 shots left.
This is really a senseless argument anyway, any of the guns can and will kill. I just give my observations with each with double lung hits. I prefer for everyone to make their own observations---INSIDE THE DEER. Since I only have discussed harder boolits, it would be silly to include all alloys in the assessment.
Just a change in the alloy can destroy a deer with each caliber. 1-My suggestions to change the alloy with each velocity has turned into a knock down, drag out battle that has resulted in profanity. I refuse to go that route and will just post my observations from my deer kills. I can not post buf or large animals either.
Deer are small, not much space between ribs but they can be real stubborn to give it up. 2-Easy to go from a tiny hole poked through to a mess of jelly. Here is the accuracy of the .45 Colt with a boolit a little too hard for deer, shot at 50 yards. Yes, I have dropped deer stone cold dead at 100 yards but that is dependent on the hit.
3-Then what a change in alloy with a gun too fast for a hard boolit can do. Hard pokes a hole but a change destroyed the whole shoulder. Make your own decisions.



1- No one up to this point has made one commit about a suggestion to change of alloy, because that has not been what the discussion was about. This discussion has been about the 45 not being of the proper velocity according to you to kill as well as the 44. If that were universally true then we would all have experienced that and we have not

The claim that this discussion has turned to profanity is base less and not one example of profanity can be documented

2-Yes it is easy to go from a smaller wound channel to a larger wound channel by simply going from a smaller meplat to a lager meplat. Even the 45 ACP shooting round nose FMJ's leave a caliber sized wound and I would not call a .451 diameter wound as "tiny"

If one wants 'expansion" with their cast bullets, then the nose of the bullet can be cast with pure soft lead and the rear cast with a harder alloy and water quenched from the mold

3-Here you claim that a bullet that is too fast does less damage than one slower and in other posts you have claimed that a bullet going too slow does less damage, for lack of a better term I have referred to this as the "Magic Velocity" and this is totally incorrect. Speeding a bullet up no matter how hard will not produce less terminal performance, this statement is totally incorrect

[waksupi]

1

The claim that this discussion has turned to profanity is base less and not one example of profanity can be documented



Staff can see edited posts.

[44man]

1- No one up to this point has made one commit about a suggestion to change of alloy, because that has not been what the discussion was about. This discussion has been about the 45 not being of the proper velocity according to you to kill as well as the 44. If that were universally true then we would all have experienced that and we have not

The claim that this discussion has turned to profanity is base less and not one example of profanity can be documented

2-Yes it is easy to go from a smaller wound channel to a larger wound channel by simply going from a smaller meplat to a lager meplat. Even the 45 ACP shooting round nose FMJ's leave a caliber sized wound and I would not call a .451 diameter wound as "tiny"

If one wants 'expansion" with their cast bullets, then the nose of the bullet can be cast with pure soft lead and the rear cast with a harder alloy and water quenched from the mold

3-Here you claim that a bullet that is too fast does less damage than one slower and in other posts you have claimed that a bullet going too slow does less damage, for lack of a better term I have referred to this as the "Magic Velocity" and this is totally incorrect. Speeding a bullet up no matter how hard will not produce less terminal performance, this statement is totally incorrect
John, the entire discussion has been about a slight change in the alloy for the velocity.
The sweet spot has ONLY been for very hard boolits.
The entire discussion has been about DEER.
Shoot a very large animal with a hard boolit going fast and the boolit will slow to the sweet spot and do more damage---Have you ever heard about "dwell time?" Shoot a deer at long range with a fast boolit and it has slowed to the sweet spot and will work better.
What is your beef about a slower .45 boolit having a little expansion without halting penetration?
Yes, this has been about the alloy used and how to get better results with any velocity. Even air cooled WW's can improve on water dropped at certain velocities. 50-50 can do wonders at other velocities.
You have entirely missed the point of the discussion. Hard boolits work better in one range and the caliber does not matter. The velocity is what you work from.
I have pointed out that accuracy must be maintained without barrel leading so yes, a soft nose boolit with a hard drive band area is a wonderful thing.
At the end of the day we will just agree that matching the alloy to either 900 fps or 2000 fps is the answer and each size animal will need something different.

[jwp475]

Exactly what is this so called sweet time? At what distance at long range has the bullet reached the "sweet spot"?

[44man]

Exactly what is this so called sweet time? At what distance at long range has the bullet reached the "sweet spot"?
Well, figure with my 45-70 with the hard boolit, it would be around 200 yards.
Soften the boolit and 20 yards is great. Alloy change.
Behind the shoulder, double lung shots.
The .44 and .45 will average a 100 fps loss at 100 yards. The .44 will show a little less damage and the .45 that started slower will poke a hole to need bleed out time. In each case, blood on the ground might take more distance to find. Even the .44 is not as good at 100 as it is at 40. At 20 it can kill very fast with huge amounts of a blood trail.
Distance matters.
A .45 that starts at 900 fps is going slow at 100 or more so you need to depend on cutting large blood vessels or hitting bone or spine.
Bust a large hole in the heart at 20 yards but as distance increases so does the size of the hole decrease until it is caliber size. Still kills no doubt. Can you find a blood trail? Deer can do 100 yards with a shot out heart.
Then comes another question. A .45 at a MV of 900 fps drops HOW MUCH at 200 yards? Where do you aim? Seems to me you are looking at over 60" drop at 200 yards, heavier boolits can go over 6 feet. You show animals killed at unreal distances with slow .45 boolits and I have to use your own words---oops, I won't say it.
Large caliber boolits kill fine at close range around 1200 fps but with a hard boolit, 1350 fps is still better because it can extend range to 100 yards. Yet blood trails can be harder to find with the slower boolit. I don't push my luck with anything more then 100 yards for deer.
I killed my last deer at near 100 yards with the 330 gr boolit but it took 50 or more yards to find first blood. She did not go much past that but a closer shot would have been better.
I will be the last person on earth to brag about the distance a deer is killed and feel if you get one at 15 yards you are a real hunter.

[cottonstalk]

IMO their are no absolutes,especially in hunting and loads.I took a deer this year,a little over 70 yards,right through the heart.At 10 ft the load chronoed 1150fps.I don't know how fast it would be traveling at 70 but less than 25 yards was needed for recovery.Fluke?I don't think so.Hardness?It was a MBW 300gr wfn.

[jwp475]

IMO their are no absolutes,especially in hunting and loads.I took a deer this year,a little over 70 yards,right through the heart.At 10 ft the load chronoed 1150fps.I don't know how fast it would be traveling at 70 but less than 25 yards was needed for recovery.Fluke?I don't think so.Hardness?It was a MBW 300gr wfn.



It wasn't a fluke, that's what wide meplat hard cast bullets do. The deer that I shot at about 50 yards with my 45 ACP went about 25 yards at most

[jwp475]

Well, figure with my 45-70 with the hard boolit, it would be around 200 yards.
Soften the boolit and 20 yards is great. Alloy change.
Behind the shoulder, double lung shots.
The .44 and .45 will average a 100 fps loss at 100 yards. The .44 will show a little less damage and the .45 that started slower will poke a hole to need bleed out time. In each case, blood on the ground might take more distance to find. Even the .44 is not as good at 100 as it is at 40. At 20 it can kill very fast with huge amounts of a blood trail.
Distance matters.
A .45 that starts at 900 fps is going slow at 100 or more so you need to depend on cutting large blood vessels or hitting bone or spine.
Bust a large hole in the heart at 20 yards but as distance increases so does the size of the hole decrease until it is caliber size. Still kills no doubt. Can you find a blood trail? Deer can do 100 yards with a shot out heart.
Then comes another question. A .45 at a MV of 900 fps drops HOW MUCH at 200 yards? Where do you aim? Seems to me you are looking at over 60" drop at 200 yards, heavier boolits can go over 6 feet. You show animals killed at unreal distances with slow .45 boolits and I have to use your own words---oops, I won't say it.
Large caliber boolits kill fine at close range around 1200 fps but with a hard boolit, 1350 fps is still better because it can extend range to 100 yards. Yet blood trails can be harder to find with the slower boolit. I don't push my luck with anything more then 100 yards for deer.
I killed my last deer at near 100 yards with the 330 gr boolit but it took 50 or more yards to find first blood. She did not go much past that but a closer shot would have been better.
I will be the last person on earth to brag about the distance a deer is killed and feel if you get one at 15 yards you are a real hunter.



For a skilled shooter you post some thing that make me scratch my head. Where do you aim, at distance? you claim to have been a IHMSA state Camp and you don't know the answer to that question. David Bradshaw has cleaned the Rams at 200 meters with a 45 ACP. I mean come on, get real

The hardness of a hard cast bullet only needs to not be brittle and not too soft, other than that it is in-material.


The bullets in the photo are a 45 Colt on the left and the 500 JRH on the right

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/45500002.jpg


A top view of the meplats, with the 500 JRH on the left and the 45 Colt on the right in this photo

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/45500001.jpg


The maplat on the 425 grain 500 JRH bullet is .390 and the meplat on the 335 grain 45 Colt bullet is .370. The meplat percent for the 425 grain bullet is 78%. The meplat percent for the 45 Colt bullet is 82%


According to this wound channel calculator the wound diameter at a striking velocity of 1100 FPS is for the above 45 Colt bullet is

Wound channel diameter of 1.018" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .370", and a striking velocity of 1100 fps.

For the same bullet at 1350 FPS;

Wound channel diameter of 1.249" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .370", and a striking velocity of 1350 fps.

A difference of only .231" that is not a major difference when the wound is already 1" plus in diameter. Not enough difference to matter, because a 1" diameter wound through the lungs will be fatal very quickly. The difference in terminal performance would take some very sophisticated equipment to measure any difference. No one will be able to observe any difference.

The 425 grain 500 JRH will leave a slightly larger wound but terminal performance on Deer sized animal will be comparable. Once a wound is large enough, larger doesn't matter



The calculator is here: http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/wound.htm?v2=1100&v1=.370


Anyone can go online here and use this ballistic wound calculator: http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/wound.htm?v2=1100&v1=.370

[Bass Ackward]

This is my last word on this unless someone wants to ask me something personally.

The whole point of cast is that "you" control the variables. But do you know what you are concocting and what are it's limits?

The whole point of hard cast is that you eliminate one variable by controlling the shape of the slug. That is right up until the point that it hits the material or goes too fast or it is plain defective.

What a lot of people don't realize is that they ARE losing shape at some point and expanding or worse, breaking or rounding off. For the same hardness, the wider the surface area you expose to these shear forces, (same strike velocity) the more likely you are to lose the predictability of your slug / load. The smaller the meplat for a bore diameter, the higher the percentage of slug integrity if you (something) screw up.

What you will learn as YOU become an expert is THAT SHOULD BE YOUR GOAL!!! Big enough to dispatch, small enough to be predictable.

So is increased bore diameter always a guarantee? Nope! Is increased velocity always a key? Nope! Is there or should there be a maximum meplat width for a bore diameter? Yep! At what velocity level should you start decreasing meplat size? Depends on the game. But if you run so wide a meplat that you have to drop velocity, then you risk judging distance for your POI. And that's just dumb. Why work up an accurate load just to shoot it inaccurately?

I see a lot of "big" names bandied about. Hard cast is a .... common language only in the fact that it defines a starting point for a discussion. But it still assumes too much. Meplat width is the "Magnum cartridge" craze of the cast world.

One man's experience is no less than others. So it shouldn't be an argument. Consider it a part of the picture that the Internet can draw for you.

Again that's why testing is important. Man "should" know the limitations and not blindly follow a marketing plan. That goes for calibers, meplat widths, hardness, anything.

So from this discussion, is the 45 a better killer than a 44 .... no. It is a more predictable killer because if a .300 wide meplat kills cleanly, then that will be a smaller percentage of bullet diameter and a stronger (at the same hardness), more "flexible" killer, from more angles, through more materials and it will have a higher ballistic coefficient if you can launch it at the same velocity as a 44.

[44man]

I have to do this one more time for JWP. Nobody has EVER cleaned IHMSA with an ACP. It can't be done! The boolits do not have enough momentum to knock over turkeys at 150 meters or 50# rams at 200 meters. It will not even knock pigs off the rail.
I have personally watched Marines at Quantico hit all 40 and come up with a score of four chickens.
If you read IHMSA history even the .357 would only drop one of five rams hit. The .44 gave slightly better results and is borderline and can leave rams standing.
That is when they started to find the "topple" point but it is still not enough for the ACP. It takes a minimum of .50 pound-seconds to knock over rams and even the 1.06 pound- seconds of the .44 can leave rams standing with a center hit. I know because I have done it too many times.
You still dance around the actual issue about meplat with a hard boolit on deer. You still need to show and explain what the effect is if the boolit is shot too fast through a deer.
You have not shown drop with the .45 at your reputed 218 yard shot. How about actual figures?
My IHMSA shooting was based on sight settings with my .44 for each distance. The difference from 50 meters to 200 meters was about 56" according to my sight settings.
Long ago a guy at work went antelope hunting and said he shot one on a dead run at 400 yards. My other friend asked how far he led it and the answer was "I didn't, aimed right at it."
Did you aim right at your 218 yard, .45 Colt shot? Do you pace with one foot paces?
I learned to take 36" paces when varmint hunting long ago and to adjust for elevations. I would be off less then a foot at 100 yards. My best shot was a head shot chuck at 610 yards with a .220 Swift. My longest crow was 410 yards. I also head shot a chuck from a sitting position at 550 yards with a .300 Weatherby.
I know my guns! I know my bullets and boolits. I see what boolits do to deer. I also know my distance limits for revolvers when hunting. I do not shoot unless I am sure and more deer walk away then I can count.
I have dumped deer on a dead run at 220 yards with a rifle. I have dumped deer at 125 yards on a dead run with a .50 cal Maxi ball from a muzzle loader. I have dumped deer after deer with a flintlock, standing or running, out over 100 yards and even hit a deer at 45 yards in a mid air leap with a stick bow. I have dumped many on the run with a shotgun slug. I have dumped deer on the run with revolvers.
But I can not equal your fantastic shots with your magic revolvers.
I am humbled by your expertise! I have never learned to make a revolver shoot flat with no drop.

[jwp475]

But I can not equal your fantastic shots with your magic revolvers.
I am humbled by your expertise! I have never learned to make a revolver shoot flat with no drop.


What a condescending statement, no one has claimed a bullet from any weapon doesn't drop. The statement the drop 1 Ram out of five hits is totally incorrect. And you need to look up Bradshaw's accomplishments. David shot many match's with a 45 ACP, simply because he was that good. Check out the Sierra Loading manual Edition V and check out the picture on page 819 of the 2.7" 100 yard group that Bradshaw shot at 100 yards with his open sighted Less Baer 1911

You think that if you never or can't do something then it is impossible and that is simply not true

I know that you have posted pictures of Beer cans with bullet holes through them that you say was shot at 200 yards, yet you claim to hit an animal at that distance is impossible and if that was done that it means the bullet had zero drop. Come on man, get real!!

[44man]

What a condescending statement, no one has claimed a bullet from any weapon doesn't drop. The statement the drop 1 Ram out of five hits is totally incorrect. And you need to look up Bradshaw's accomplishments. David shot many match's with a 45 ACP, simply because he was that good. Check out the Sierra Loading manual Edition V and check out the picture on page 819 of the 2.7" 100 yard group that Bradshaw shot at 100 yards with his open sighted Less Baer 1911

You think that if you never or can't do something then it is impossible and that is simply not true

I know that you have posted pictures of Beer cans with bullet holes through them that you say was shot at 200 yards, yet you claim to hit an animal at that distance is impossible and if that was done that it means the bullet had zero drop. Come on man, get real!!
How off can a man get? I was a long standing member of IHMSA and have several articles in Shooting Steel. Bradshaw was a good shot as well as I was and many other shooters but he could not knock over rams with an ACP.
Sure, I can shoot beer cans at 200 but I have an aiming point above the cans depending on drop. I am not going to shoot at deer that far.
I also shoot steel at 200 yards with a .22 Ruger Mark II by having an aiming point 53" above the steel. Do I shoot squirrels at 200 yards?
Zero drop? NO, I can do it with an aiming point on targets but to even try with game is stupid because you are aiming at AIR, up in the sky. With a .45 you cant even see the animal under the gun.
You need to keep an open sight on the animal and know exactly how much barrel under the sight to hold for each distance.
You are not Elmer and neither am I. You are in the realm of thousandths of an inch between hit and miss. Don't BS me or anyone else.

[BABore]

I killed a ghopher with a stick once. :popcorn:

[zxcvbob]

I killed a ghopher with a stick once. :popcorn:

It'd be more interesting if you kilt him twice. (now where's that zombie ghopher button... This'll have to do...) http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-violent014.gif

[jwp475]

44man, you are a classic bait and switch poster as you continue to try and change the direction of the debate.

You claim that the 45 Colt to be inferior to the 44 because in your words the 44 is faster. You do not take into account that the 45 has the larger meplat

Again you failed to address the facts presented in this post. I can hardly wait to hear your reply

For a skilled shooter you post some thing that make me scratch my head. Where do you aim, at distance? you claim to have been a IHMSA state Camp and you don't know the answer to that question. David Bradshaw has cleaned the Rams at 200 meters with a 45 ACP. I mean come on, get real

The hardness of a hard cast bullet only needs to not be brittle and not too soft, other than that it is in-material.


The bullets in the photo are a 45 Colt on the left and the 500 JRH on the right

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/45500002.jpg


A top view of the meplats, with the 500 JRH on the left and the 45 Colt on the right in this photo

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/45500001.jpg


The maplat on the 425 grain 500 JRH bullet is .390 and the meplat on the 335 grain 45 Colt bullet is .370. The meplat percent for the 425 grain bullet is 78%. The meplat percent for the 45 Colt bullet is 82%


According to this wound channel calculator the wound diameter at a striking velocity of 1100 FPS is for the above 45 Colt bullet is

Wound channel diameter of 1.018" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .370", and a striking velocity of 1100 fps.

For the same bullet at 1350 FPS;

Wound channel diameter of 1.249" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .370", and a striking velocity of 1350 fps.

A difference of only .231" that is not a major difference when the wound is already 1" plus in diameter. Not enough difference to matter, because a 1" diameter wound through the lungs will be fatal very quickly. The difference in terminal performance would take some very sophisticated equipment to measure any difference. No one will be able to observe any difference.

The 425 grain 500 JRH will leave a slightly larger wound but terminal performance on Deer sized animal will be comparable. Once a wound is large enough, larger doesn't matter



The calculator is here: http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/wound.htm?v2=1100&v1=.370


Anyone can go online here and use this ballistic wound calculator: http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/wound.htm?v2=1100&v1=.370

[white eagle]

Bass nailed it:coffeecom

[jwp475]

No disagreement here

[cottonstalk]

One man's experience is no less than others. So it shouldn't be an argument. Consider it a part of the picture that the Internet can draw for you.

Again that's why testing is important. Man "should" know the limitations and not blindly follow a marketing plan. That goes for calibers, meplat widths, hardness, anything.


That is some great stuff,testing for yourself will give you your limitations.And the internet could draw some great pictures if people would accept others experiences and share theirs as their experience and not fact.

[JudgeBAC]

No two animals react the same when struck by a projectile launched from a handgun or rifle.

First disclaimer: I have not taken a big game animal with a cast bullet. A groundhog was the only victim of one of my cast bullets fired from a .38 special. Hit him six times before the sucker died. Yikes.

Second disclaimer: I have taken a total of 9 whitetail deer, 2 mule deer and an elk. One whitetail was taken with a bow, two with a 7-08 ballistic tip, one with an 8 X 68S 200 gr. Nosler partition, one with .308 Hornady 165 spire point, one with 165 gr. .30-06 ballistic tip, one with .300 mag 180 gr. partition, one with .270 130 gr. ballistic tip, and one with a 7mm stw 175 gr. partition. One mule deer .300 win mag 180 gr. partition, one with 8 X 68S 198 gr. H mantel RWS factory (only factory round used) one elk with 7mm STW 175 gr. partition.

Third disclaimer: 11 big game taken is probably not statistically significant to draw many conclusions regarding terminal ballistics.

My conclusions: I don't know that I have any. General conclusions are that ballistic tips are fantastic for deer sized critters shot in the boiler room. They are simply devastating. However, animals react differently in almost every case. Example in point, 7mm STW 175 gr. partition spike whitetail 275 yards heart shot which not only blew the hear too pieces but the off shoulder looked like a grenade went off in the deer. When hit this deer ran full bore about 75 yards before tilting his head and tumbling end over end. The only bam slam shots were in the boiler room with ballistic tips and the H mantel bullet from the 8 X 68S. This 198 gr. bullet starts out at over 3000 fps and is simply devasting on the one animal killed with it.

Several years ago I attended an event where the speaker was a physician. In the late 60's he was a MASH Dr. in Vietnam. He brought a number of slides showing various US servicemen who had been shot with 7.63 x 39 fmj ammo. Based on this thread we would think you must have a heavy bullet with a wide meplat at a fairly high velocity to inflict nasty wounds, not so. The 7.62 x 39 fmj inflicted some of the nastiest wounds I have ever seen in my entire life. I was simply amazed at how devestating a fmj military round could be. It seems totally contrary about what we believe about terminal ballistics.

My bottom line conclusion is simply this: terminal ballistics I believe is the least understood of the ballistic sciences.

Before any of you turn flame on please remember my disclaimers. I do not have a large body of personal experience in this matter.

[Frank]

jwp:
I have taken game as form away as 219 laser yards awya with a 45 Colt and the animal went down at the hit and was most certainly not lost.
Theory that doesn't pan out in the real world

Interesting that you brought up how effective a .45 Colt is at 219 yards. How do you aim for a shot like that with your load? 44man uses a red dot to hold over and he practices with the holdover.

[44man]

No two animals react the same when struck by a projectile launched from a handgun or rifle.

First disclaimer: I have not taken a big game animal with a cast bullet. A groundhog was the only victim of one of my cast bullets fired from a .38 special. Hit him six times before the sucker died. Yikes.

Second disclaimer: I have taken a total of 9 whitetail deer, 2 mule deer and an elk. One whitetail was taken with a bow, two with a 7-08 ballistic tip, one with an 8 X 68S 200 gr. Nosler partition, one with .308 Hornady 165 spire point, one with 165 gr. .30-06 ballistic tip, one with .300 mag 180 gr. partition, one with .270 130 gr. ballistic tip, and one with a 7mm stw 175 gr. partition. One mule deer .300 win mag 180 gr. partition, one with 8 X 68S 198 gr. H mantel RWS factory (only factory round used) one elk with 7mm STW 175 gr. partition.

Third disclaimer: 11 big game taken is probably not statistically significant to draw many conclusions regarding terminal ballistics.

My conclusions: I don't know that I have any. General conclusions are that ballistic tips are fantastic for deer sized critters shot in the boiler room. They are simply devastating. However, animals react differently in almost every case. Example in point, 7mm STW 175 gr. partition spike whitetail 275 yards heart shot which not only blew the hear too pieces but the off shoulder looked like a grenade went off in the deer. When hit this deer ran full bore about 75 yards before tilting his head and tumbling end over end. The only bam slam shots were in the boiler room with ballistic tips and the H mantel bullet from the 8 X 68S. This 198 gr. bullet starts out at over 3000 fps and is simply devasting on the one animal killed with it.

Several years ago I attended an event where the speaker was a physician. In the late 60's he was a MASH Dr. in Vietnam. He brought a number of slides showing various US servicemen who had been shot with 7.63 x 39 fmj ammo. Based on this thread we would think you must have a heavy bullet with a wide meplat at a fairly high velocity to inflict nasty wounds, not so. The 7.62 x 39 fmj inflicted some of the nastiest wounds I have ever seen in my entire life. I was simply amazed at how devestating a fmj military round could be. It seems totally contrary about what we believe about terminal ballistics.

My bottom line conclusion is simply this: terminal ballistics I believe is the least understood of the ballistic sciences.

Before any of you turn flame on please remember my disclaimers. I do not have a large body of personal experience in this matter.
No disclaimer needed because you learn from what you see.
Yes, a tumbling bullet in tissue can be horrible.
Shooting game is a balance between killing fast or blowing meat to shreds. I can destroy an animal but I would rather have good meat.
Even a revolver can leave a mess that I don't want. I also do not want a little hole poked through so there must be a compromise.
A .45 hole is not enough larger then a .44 hole to think about, it is what the boolit does inside that counts. A few thousandths difference in the meplat is just barking at the moon. A Keith or WLN can do more damage then a WFN shot wrong.
I pass on what I see and experience, end of story.

[jwp475]

jwp:
Interesting that you brought up how effective a .45 Colt is at 219 yards. How do you aim for a shot like that with your load? 44man uses a red dot to hold over and he practices with the holdover.



The same way that Elmer Kieth did it. By practice using a portion of the front sight above the rear.

[jwp475]

A .45 hole is not enough larger then a .44 hole to think about, it is what the boolit does inside that counts. A few thousandths difference in the meplat is just barking at the moon. A Keith or WLN can do more damage then a WFN shot wrong.
I pass on what I see and experience, end of story.

You are posting contradictory info again. In the past you have posted that the Keith semi wadcutter has too small of a meplat and leaves a small wound channel. Now you are saying that the Keith semi wadcutter and the WLN can do more damage than a WFN "shot wrong" (whatever that means)

News flash, according to Veral Smith the WFN and the WLN have the same meplat. Veral also states that the larger meplat leaves the larger wound channel and that is my experience as well

[44man]

You are posting contradictory info again. In the past you have posted that the Keith semi wadcutter has too small of a meplat and leaves a small wound channel. Now you are saying that the Keith semi wadcutter and the WLN can do more damage than a WFN "shot wrong" (whatever that means)

News flash, according to Veral Smith the WFN and the WLN have the same meplat. Veral also states that the larger meplat leaves the larger wound channel and that is my experience as well
No, you are confusing the entire issue again. I have ONLY said that i do not get the accuracy with a Keith, not that it does not kill. I stated that the little shoulder does not add to the effect of the meplat and the meplat is the only part of the boolt that does the work.
You are weaving more and more false statements into this discussion.
The WFN has a LARGER meplat then the WLN but if shot at the wrong velocity, it does not matter but if shot at the proper velocity, it will have a better effect.
Stop dancing, you will fall down! :mrgreen:

[jwp475]

No, you are confusing the entire issue again. I have ONLY said that i do not get the accuracy with a Keith, not that it does not kill. I stated that the little shoulder does not add to the effect of the meplat and the meplat is the only part of the boolt that does the work.
You are weaving more and more false statements into this discussion.
The WFN has a LARGER meplat then the WLN but if shot at the wrong velocity, it does not matter but if shot at the proper velocity, it will have a better effect.
Stop dancing, you will fall down! :mrgreen:



You are the one dancing and weaving. I talked to Veral Smith this morning and the WFN and the WLN have the same size meplat, .090" under bore diameter. Thes Meplat is the determing factor in determining the size of the wound channel, if not then we would still be using rounds nose bullets.

Using the wound channel calculator we get a predicted wound channel of Wound channel diameter of 1.064" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .370", and a striking velocity of 1150 fps.
Here;
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/wound.htm?v2=1150&v1=.370


With the 44 which you claim kills better because it is faster we find a calculation of Wound channel diameter of 1.08" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .320", and a striking velocity of 1350 fps.

Here; http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/wound.htm?v2=1350&v1=.320


The difference in wound channel size is a moot point. The added meplat size of the 45 bullet made up for the 200 FPS less velcity

[RobS]

1150 fps from a 45 colt as well as the 1350 fps of the 44 mag, I'm assuming the deer will be sitting on the end of the barrel pretty much. :)

A question though: What about striking velocity at let's say 100 yards between the two calibers with those two bullets or even at your long distance shot of 200+ yards. The 44 mag being of a smaller meplat and traveling faster will retain a higher velocity at longer distances vs the 45 colt bullet being of a larger meplat and heavier weight.

Just curious to the numbers with the change in bullet velocities at longer ranges in regards to the wound channel calculator.

[44man]

Tell me that the WLN and WFN has the same meplat. I do not believe you talked to Veral at all.

[jwp475]

Assuming a BC of .232 the 44 bullet of 300 grains at a muzzle velocity of 1350 will have a velcoity of 1157 at 100 yards and a velocity of 1031 at 200 yards


A 45 caliber 300 grain bullet with a BC .210 with a muzzle velocity of 1150 will have 1017 FPS at 100 yards and at 200 yards will have a velocity of 928 FPS

While the 2 bullets leave the muzzle with a 200 FPS difference the difference at 100 yards is 140 FPS. At 200 yards the difference in velocity is 103 FPS

Despite the slightly higher BC of the 300 Grain 44 bullet despite faster muzzle velocity scrubs off speed at a higher rate and the velocity difference narrows as the distance grows

all velocities were calculated through Perry Systems Exball ballsitic targeting computor based soft ware.
Not vastly different at all

[jwp475]

Tell me that the WLN and WFN has the same meplat. I do not believe you talked to Veral at all.



His number is 208-267-3588 it is posted on his web site

http://www.lbtmoulds.com/

I do not appreciate you calling me a liar, when I am posting the truth. You are comparing bullets sold buy a maker that uses the term LBT and that is as close to LBT bullets as it gets . They are not bullets made from molds supplied by Veral Smith the owner of LBT which stands for Lead Bullet Technology

Bulling your way through without the facts will not work

[44man]

1150 fps from a 45 colt as well as the 1350 fps of the 44 mag, I'm assuming the deer will be sitting on the end of the barrel pretty much. :)

A question though: What about striking velocity at let's say 100 yards between the two calibers with those two bullets or even at your long distance shot of 200+ yards. The 44 mag being of a smaller meplat and traveling faster will retain a higher velocity at longer distances vs the 45 colt bullet being of a larger meplat and heavier weight.

Just curious to the numbers with the change in bullet velocities at longer ranges in regards to the wound channel calculator.
Rob, paper figures are meaningless. As distance increases so does the effect of a boolit decrease. A deer shot at 100 yards with either will have a smaller wound channel then one shot closer. Shoot a deer with the .45 at 10 yards and it is the same as one shot at whatever range the .44 is the same velocity.
Shoot a .45 Colt through a deer and then a .454 and the difference is the distance that is equal in killing effect, the .454 being much farther. You can't turn a .45 into a .44 mag or a .454 with equal weight boolits.
To shoot an animal at 218 yards with a .45 is a stunt or a lie. Even though the boolit will still kill, drop is out of sight and not even the brain can calculate it. What does it take at that range between a hit or miss? .0005" of an inch more or less of barrel showing under the front sight?
I could do it if I knew the exact distance and had the sight setting for it plus the time to adjust and take a rest, either creedmore or sandbags. Then the boolit effect on the animal would be so poor I could lose it with a perfect hit. Don't let anyone tell you a few thousandths more meplat will kill better.
Does anyone realize how small an animal looks at 200 yards? How large revolver sights are on the animal? Deer are very tiny at 100 yards. We shot IHMSA with a hold on the bottom edge of the steel. There would be a line of light there but the line would creep up into the ram as you raised the gun and you could overshoot. You just don't know how hard it is.
Nobody knows how hard it is to clang steel at 500 meters. Long range revolver shooting is fun but hunting like that is no more then a stunt or lie. Shoot animals as close as you can.

[jwp475]

Rob, paper figures are meaningless. As distance increases so does the effect of a boolit decrease. A deer shot at 100 yards with either will have a smaller wound channel then one shot closer. Shoot a deer with the .45 at 10 yards and it is the same as one shot at whatever range the .44 is the same velocity.
Shoot a .45 Colt through a deer and then a .454 and the difference is the distance that is equal in killing effect, the .454 being much farther. You can't turn a .45 into a .44 mag or a .454 with equal weight boolits.
To shoot an animal at 218 yards with a .45 is a stunt or a lie. Even though the boolit will still kill, drop is out of sight and not even the brain can calculate it. What does it take at that range between a hit or miss? .0005" of an inch more or less of barrel showing under the front sight?
I could do it if I knew the exact distance and had the sight setting for it plus the time to adjust and take a rest, either creedmore or sandbags. Then the boolit effect on the animal would be so poor I could lose it with a perfect hit. Don't let anyone tell you a few thousandths more meplat will kill better.
Does anyone realize how small an animal looks at 200 yards? How large revolver sights are on the animal? Deer are very tiny at 100 yards. We shot IHMSA with a hold on the bottom edge of the steel. There would be a line of light there but the line would creep up into the ram as you raised the gun and you could overshoot. You just don't know how hard it is.
Nobody knows how hard it is to clang steel at 500 meters. Long range revolver shooting is fun but hunting like that is no more then a stunt or lie. Shoot animals as close as you can.


You sure like to throw that term around...

[44man]

Assuming a BC of .232 the 44 bullet of 300 grains at a muzzle velocity of 1350 will have a velcoity of 1157 at 100 yards and a velocity of 1031 at 200 yards


A 45 caliber 300 grain bullet with a BC .210 with a muzzle velocity of 1150 will have 1017 FPS at 100 yards and at 200 yards will have a velocity of 928 FPS

While the 2 bullets leave the muzzle with a 200 FPS difference the difference at 100 yards is 140 FPS. At 200 yards the difference in velocity is 103 FPS

Despite the slightly higher BC of the 300 Grain 44 bullet despite faster muzzle velocity scrubs off speed at a higher rate and the velocity difference narrows as the distance grows

all velocities were calculated through Perry Systems Exball ballsitic targeting computor based soft ware.
Not vastly different at all
I think you best look at the pictures. They are Veral's designs.
Since the .44 heavy boolit drops 35" at 200 yards, you have still not told us how much a .45 drops.
When the cold weather is gone I will load what you use and measure it, just give me your load.

[jwp475]

If the meplats are not the same diameter for the same caliber bullets then they are not Verals. You have posted on more than one ocassion that you make your molds and do not buy them. So how are they Verals bullets? Did you buy them? You have posted many times that you cast all of the bullets that you shoot. Where did you get those photos?

Who cares how much it drops? It is the sight setting that counts

Still working the bait and switch. Our discussion is not about long range shooting. It is about your claim that the 44 kills better than the 45 Colt because it is too slow and the 45-70 because it is too fast.

Stick to the subject, you can do it

[45nut]

Seems a fraction of the audience around that prefers conflict and antagonizing discussions, regardless of the why, who, what when or how anymore.
There are probably underlying reasons they do not want to discuss on the open board why they want to take on the community here and believe me, I can sympathize but this board is full of friends, not enemies and constant petty injections of spite and turmoil only serves to further fracture and destroy what should be a last refuge of humanity in a sea of corporate fueled despair.

Please leave the hostility at the doorstep, wipe your boots when you drop by and engage the handshake offered you when you registered. There is no need to beat down others here to accomplish the goals we at Cast Boolits are dedicated to, that of fellowship and education.

[Whitworth]

Good grief! I leave for a few days and this "discussion" is still going hot 'n heavy.

"LBT-style" is misused even more than "Keith-style." Unless the mold was designed by Veral Smith or an EXACT duplicate, it isn't LBT anything. Period.

Anyhow, having said that, I would like to remind y'all that Christmas is right around the corner and we should act civily. Just a reminder that there are many more important things in this life to get upset about. Both of you are friends of mine and I would implore you to back down and restore peace and respect towards one another.

Okay, gotta go......

[44man]

I used to buy boolits from Cast Performance and Beartooth before making my molds. Are they exactly the same as out of an LBT mold? I don't know! I do have his book and boolit information.
But yeah, we have been silly over this so lets just agree to disagree. :bigsmyl2:

[jwp475]

The only difference between the LBT WFN and WLN is the lenght of the nose

[outdoorfan]

I have done much reading throughout the years over at GB's on Veral's forum, and I remember Veral making the statement several times that he would sometimes make a wfn in place of the ordered wln and write a note to the customer explaining his decision. Point is they share the same meplat.

[jwp475]

The Bear Tooth Bullets permanent wound channel calculator predicts the following Wound channel diameter of 1.035" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .360", and a striking velocity of 1150 fps.


The pictures of the wound in Cottonstalks Deer with a WFN at 1150 FPS looks to be close to if not larger than the predicted wound channel


http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/45deer010.jpg

and now the exit

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/45deer011.jpg

[Whitworth]

jwp -- actually that velocity is at the muzzle. It wasn't going that fast when it hit the deer. Just saying.....

[BABore]

jwp -- actually that velocity is at the muzzle. It wasn't going that fast when it hit the deer. Just saying.....

Just saying what? No distance was listed. Just saying.

[Whitworth]

We chronographed that load and they turned that number at the muzzle. If my memory serves me correctly (which it often does not), that deer was shot at 50 yards. So, what was it clocking at that point? 1,100 fps? Less? The point is that it did all that damage at a very moderate velocity.

Just saying.......

[outdoorfan]

That's cottonstalk's deer, right? if so, he said it was 70 yards.

[white eagle]

Seems a fraction of the audience around that prefers conflict and antagonizing discussions, regardless of the why, who, what when or how anymore.
There are probably underlying reasons they do not want to discuss on the open board why they want to take on the community here and believe me, I can sympathize but this board is full of friends, not enemies and constant petty injections of spite and turmoil only serves to further fracture and destroy what should be a last refuge of humanity in a sea of corporate fueled despair.

Please leave the hostility at the doorstep, wipe your boots when you drop by and engage the handshake offered you when you registered. There is no need to beat down others here to accomplish the goals we at Cast Boolits are dedicated to, that of fellowship and education.
here.here :popcorn:

[Piedmont]

I have a load for the 9mm that is magic. It has an ideal meplat diameter (which I won't divulge) at an ideal velocity that makes it a DEATH RAY. If you slow it down it won't kill. If you speed it up it causes so much tissue damage that the animal will run for miles with no blood trail.

Did I mention that I was a member of SEAL team SIX AND A HALF!?

[Whitworth]

I have a load for the 9mm that is magic. It has an ideal meplat diameter (which I won't divulge) at an ideal velocity that makes it a DEATH RAY. If you slow it down it won't kill. If you speed it up it causes so much tissue damage that the animal will run for miles with no blood trail.

Did I mention that I was a member of SEAL team SIX AND A HALF!?


I think I will need to trade in my .500 Linebaugh! :bigsmyl2:

[zxcvbob]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[Frank]

jwp:
The cartridge is the 500 JRH and that was muzzle velocity. The impact shuddered the Elk, it was most impressive to me

Why did you show a rifle round in that picture, post 29? Just curious. That was the same post you said 44man was saying BS.

44man:
To shoot an animal at 218 yards with a .45 is a stunt or a lie. Even though the boolit will still kill, drop is out of sight and not even the brain can calculate it. What does it take at that range between a hit or miss? .0005" of an inch more or less of barrel showing under the front sight?
I could do it if I knew the exact distance and had the sight setting for it plus the time to adjust and take a rest, either creedmore or sandbags. Then the boolit effect on the animal would be so poor I could lose it with a perfect hit. Don't let anyone tell you a few thousandths more meplat will kill better.
Does anyone realize how small an animal looks at 200 yards? How large revolver sights are on the animal? Deer are very tiny at 100 yards. We shot IHMSA with a hold on the bottom edge of the steel. There would be a line of light there but the line would creep up into the ram as you raised the gun and you could overshoot. You just don't know how hard it is.
Nobody knows how hard it is to clang steel at 500 meters. Long range revolver shooting is fun but hunting like that is no more then a stunt or lie. Shoot animals as close as you can.

Yeah, right. "I killed an animal at 218 yds with my revolver." Did he hit it with his first shot? Or did he keep shooting and reloading until he hit it while it was grazing? :confused:

[cottonstalk]

Good grief. What could have been an interesting discussion has went way off course. http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/1sthandgundeer.jpg Taken with a 44 mag at1275fps(@ the muzzle) http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/45deer006.jpg Taken with a 45colt at 1150fps(@ the muzzle) http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/475deer004.jpg Taken with a 475 Linebaugh at 1350fps(@ the muzzle) all results will wind up the same,on my plate next to taters and gravy.

[Whitworth]

jwp:

Why did you show a rifle round in that picture, post 29? Just curious. That was the same post you said 44man was saying BS.

44man:

Yeah, right. "I killed an animal at 218 yds with my revolver." Did he hit it with his first shot? Or did he keep shooting and reloading until he hit it while it was grazing? :confused:

Frank, I know both of the "combatants" here personally and not just in cyberspace. I have hunted with both of them rather extensively. They both shoot very well. I know factually that jwp shot that hog at 218 yards.

The rifle round (a .300 win mag) was used to give perspective -- a reference so that you can see just how big the hole in the ribcage is.

How about backing down, boys

[44man]

Frank, I know both of the "combatants" here personally and not just in cyberspace. I have hunted with both of them rather extensively. They both shoot very well. I know factually that jwp shot that hog at 218 yards.

The rifle round (a .300 win mag) was used to give perspective -- a reference so that you can see just how big the hole in the ribcage is.

How about backing down, boys
I have because I have been taken wrong during the whole discussion as if nothing was read at all. It was about a double lung hit only with hard boolits that do not deform, ON DEER.
It had nothing at all to do with whether the boolits killed at any velocity but was only the reference to time of death with changing velocities.
It seems so contentious that I will not talk about it again.
People insert all kinds of alloys, spine hits, big bone hits, all size animals and on and on.
I may not have killed a million animals but I sure have killed enough deer to see a difference with starting velocities and distance the deer is shot. But simple physics vanish with a revolver as does the rate of twist.
I had to open my safe and look at the magic guns again. I need to expect the same internal damage at 500 yards that I get at 10 yards and the same damage at 900 fps that I get at 1350 fps.
I am baffled to say the least!
It begs the question of why the .454 or .460 is needed and why were they even thought of? And why are expanding bullets made?
Why did Elmer push so hard for the .44 mag? Could it be he was not happy with the .45 and .44 special?
End of story, I quit talking about boolit performance since all you need is a flat nose.
Whitworth will get all of his .500 JRH loads made to 700 fps from now on! :kidding:Why do I detect tears?