Ruger BH .357 would not shoot lead

[PacMan]

I recently purchased a new RBH 6 1/2" .357 for the sole pourpose of shooting lead. The bullet that i wanted to shoot is a 160 gr LBTFN water droped/and maybe same make and profile 180gr.
First thing i did was slug the barrel= .3572 as close as i could tell
And then the cylinder throats= 5 were .3583-.3585 with one being .358.

I use a lot of Little Gun in my Marlin so stated out with it and then moved to 2400 and N-110. No mater what i did if i got a 8" group at 25 yards i felt i was lucky. Most groups ran 10 to 14 inches. Man i was really discouraged so i tried some 158 gr XTP and got good accuracy righ from the start.

Because of the nose profile of tht LBTFN i could not get a lrger dia. bullet than .358 to chamber so i set out to enlarge my die and laped to .3593 and stoped which meant i had to lap my cylinder throats to.I laped out each throat until i got a slip fit with a heat treated (to help keep the bullet dia. when using as a gage) .3593 bullet.

Now the test to see if i had completly ruined my cylinder. First group using a charge of 2400 that had given 10-12' groups not gave me a 5" vertical group. I then tried a recomended load of 12.4 grs of 2400 and to my disbelief the first group shrank to 1" with five of them being in 3/4 ragged hole. I loaded 12 more with the smr results if i done my part. One of the groups went to 2" becaused of a called flyer.
No leading at all after more than fifty rounds so life seems to be good again.

I was desperate when i decided to go this route but it paid off in the end.

By the way accuracy with the 158gr XTP went south with groups doubling in size.OH well.

Now to try the 180 grainers.
Dwight

[Walt]

You got more guts than me (probably more money too). I wouldn't have whittled on a new cylinder like that!

[outdoorfan]

Good for you! I would say that it could have been a lot worse as far as how much work you had to put into it.

[PacMan]

Walt not sure about the money thing. I am not sure what else i could do and any advice would be appericated seeing as though i hope to purchase a RBH in 41mag one of these days and i hope that it handles lead better without the modifications.

Dwight

[Piedmont]

Dwight, You are braver than me, too. I would have a) sized the bullet .001 smaller, b) seated it deeper and dropped the powder charge a bit, or c) tried some other bullet designs sized .358 that would chamber. Everything worked out OK for you but you did have some options.

Another point, sometimes guns wear-in, so I would have shot it at least 500 rounds before I got too disappointed. Sometimes a gun just doesn't like a particular bullet, too. So you might have opened the throats and had it still not like your preferred bullet.

[Bullshop]

If you get that 41 and find you need a 412" throat reamer I have one.

[PacMan]

Yes Peidmount i thought about sizing smaller but would have had to buy another sizer and i was also hoping to use the same size bullet in my Marlin and it does not like anything smaller than .358. The Marlin likes .360 real well and i hope that it will shoot the .3595 as well. Will be testing tomorrow. As to seating deeper i would have lost the ability to crimp in the grove and a loss of approx. .116 powder space. With the 12.4 gr load i am averging 1210fps.
The decision to lap the throats was not made without some thought. I really thought about giving the gun a while to work in some but after approx. 100 jacketed rounds the gun showed no signs of shearing with jacketed or lead so i figured that there was not much of an alignment problem.

Bullshop thank you very much for your offer and i will keep it in mind.

Dwight

[Walt]

Walt not sure about the money thing. I am not sure what else i could do and any advice would be appericated seeing as though i hope to purchase a RBH in 41mag one of these days and i hope that it handles lead better without the modifications.

Dwight

I sure understand wanting to use a particular bullet in a particular gun for a particular purpose but, I probably would have changed the bullets before changing the gun! :smile:

[PacMan]

Well i tried the same loads in my Marlin this morning. shot one 6 shot group at 50 yards. 5 shots into less than an inch. The first shot was in a cleaned barrel and was about 3/4 in higher than the group.
It is cloudy and misting rain this morning and could not test velocity in the Marlin.
The only 180's i have cast are heat treated and when i size in the .3595 die they spring back to .360 and will not chamber in the Ruger. Will have to cast some today and water drop then size before they get to hard.
Walt i understand what you are saying but i am a simple person and the more variables that i can take out of an already complicated world the better for me. To be honest i had no ideal that the modifications would equal the results that it has.Some times you take your chances/make your decision and hope that you can live with the results.
At this point i can happily live with the results.
Dwight

[Char-Gar]

If you would have cast your bullets out of ACWW and sized them .358, you would get good accuracy without all of that other stuff.

If does no harm if a bullet is up to .001 or .002 thou smaller than the cylinder throats, as long as they are larger than barrel groove diameter. They will slug up for a good tight fit in the cylinder charge holes. But, when you start to turn them into granite by quenching them in water, all of that goes out the window.

There is no need for bullets that hard in any sixgun..period!!!!

[RobS]

There is no need for bullets that hard in any sixgun..period!!!!

Different courses for different horses Charger. I have run both directions from the same gun with different bullets as that is what gave me the best accuracy; I let the gun tell me what's best. Most of my shooting goes to an air cooled WW boolit, but a few bullets from a mold here and there performs best with a water quenched (harder/tougher) bullet. There is a general rule of thumb to casting and reloading boolits but there is not a hard line as to one way or the other. People have success both ways and proof is in the pudding so to speak and I'm not one to tell a person they are wrong when everythings a working. Regards to that, I'll start out with air cooled and if it doesn't work then I look into the firearm. If the firearm looks right then I'll work with a water quenched boolit and then go from there. There are no absolutes to all this just the pursuit of a bunch of stingy fellows that like to roll there own.

[Char-Gar]

Rob... There are number of absolutes in life, such as gravity ,etc. etc. Newton and Einstein came up with some more absolutes.

Cast bullet shooting has some hard and fast principals. There is plenty of room to tinker within those principals. But there is a linear path to success and there are some absolutes along the way. It is not as loosey goosey as some folks think.

I am 50 years deep into shooting cast bullet in sixguns and have made every mistake than can be made and learned from then. I would be less than honest if I said things, I knew not to be true.

You are free to do it what ever way you want and I am free to express my opinions on the subject at hand. Even if you might think that opinion to be dogmatic or arrogant. Not everybody agrees with me and I am OK with that.

[white eagle]

Dwight
I did some what the same thing with my 45 colt
reamed and polished the cylinder throats now shoots like crazy
way better than before
like you say take yer chances [smilie=2::drinks:

[RobS]

Not a problem at all Charger, he is getting the results he wants his way and that's fine by me. Is it the way I would have gone? Well I answered that in my post above. It is what it is, nothing more, and nothing less.

I respect that you have 50 years of casting and I listen to many with such time under their belt, however 44man has many years around him too and his principles are different than yours and mine but it works out very well for him and many who shoot with him. He as posted more than enough pics to show for it. I don't just run out into the street, I look both ways before crossing is all. There are others that believe differently as well, Cast Performance Bullets is a business that continues to do well and has thousands of happy campers with 18-21 BHN bullets.

[GP100man]

I was getting leading from mostly 5 of chambers on a GP & found 1 at 3585 the rest were closer to 3575 ,I lapped em all to 3585 & AC my isotope alloy ,now I can push em purty good (1200 fps or so ) no leading & will shoot better than I can !!

[PacMan]

Chargar
Read my post from 11:29 pm last night and maybe you can understand why i want a larger and harder bullet.
If i was only going to use in one gun i may have made it work in one gun.
Thanks
Dwight

[robertbank]

I was getting leading from mostly 5 of chambers on a GP & found 1 at 3585 the rest were closer to 3575 ,I lapped em all to 3585 & AC my isotope alloy ,now I can push em purty good (1200 fps or so ) no leading & will shoot better than I can !!

HI

You have read about my GP100 on the Ruger forum. Since posting there I have taken a hard look at my cylinder throats and they are very tight. A 357 bullet won't pass through any of them unless one tags them hard with a hammer. I am going to ream my cylinders out to .358 and cut my forcing cone to 11 degrees as 99% of my shooting will be with lead boolits.

I am concerned that shooting full loads with jacketed might drive pressures up to high so will refraim from shooting .357mag loads until I get the cylinders reamed out. I am not sure my concern is warranted but I would rather be safe than sorry. Thoughts?

Take Care

Bob

[PacMan]

Charger if you will read my post from last night 11:29 pm you will see why i wanted to shoot a harder bullet. If i had wanted to shoot the bullet out of the Ruger only i may have been able to make that happen.
As it stands now i can grab the loads and either gun and know that they will work. Right or wrong (road) all i know for sure is that after burning a lot of lead/power and primers trying to get the Ruger to shoot the bullet/hardness that i wanted without any luck i made the modification and two loads later everything fit together.
Thanks
Dwight

[992B]

dwight, I had an accuracy problem with an old model 357 blackhawk that frustrated me for a long time. The cure was cutting the forcing cone to 11 degrees and installing a Belt Mountain base pin. It is now one of my favorite shooters!

gary

[Char-Gar]

Dwight.. I noticed you wanted to use the bullet in a Marlin levergun as well was the Ruger. I have had several of those really neat rifles. I just gave the last one to my son-in-law. I never found the need for super hard bullets in that rifle either.

I have been using good old Lyman 358156 for years in both handguns and rifles and have never found the need for anything harder than ACWW. I have fired a good many plain base Cramer No. 12 bullets in the Marlin and used No. 2 alloy for those.

I guess, I just ought to mind my own business, but I felt it was not necessary to go all of that metal work, just to make a Ruger BH shoot cast bullets. The factory specs that you have us, seemed fine to me without alteration.

[Three44s]

You can take it off ....... but it's dang near impossible to put it back on .......

That's what I remind myself when I get in the mood for some metal "butchery".

I applaud your hutspa Dwight Hardy ...... I really do ....... and I own the handbook from Beartooth Bullets that details boolit geometry for guns ......

....... but I have thus far stopped short on effecting geometric changes to my metalurgy.

Here's what I have done:

I have used effective cleaning proceedures and used JB or USP bore paste to some extent and used a product called CorrosionX to coat the innards after cleaning.

I also have tailored loads such that leading is minimized.

And over time ..... not a lot ...... but some time ....... my bores and cylinders have gotten smoother and stayed cleaner and in no time at all ...... I was up to full power.

I have at least one revolver and probably two that still needs to have the throats opened up ...... but other than that, I am probably 4 out of 6 thus far.

I find it interesting that your J-word accuracy (the XTP) has dropped ...... it makes sense to me but is contrary to what Marshall Stanton swears when touting chamber throat reaming. It makes me glad that I have not jumped into this activity from the get go.

Best regards

Three 44s

[PacMan]

Say Charger i really do appericate your input so there is no reason to keep your mouth shut.You have to much to offer.Having said that i would like to settle the reasons for my actions.

I started casting for my Marlin.357 eight months ago and have over 1500 rounds thur it with diffrent bullets and found that the LBT 160 and 180gr bullets pushed to 1850fps worked better with WD W/W and sized to .360.
Two other reasons i like to water drop is the for me it speeds up my casting and the other reason real or not is i do not have to worry about the case sizing my bullets when reloading.And i really did not want the bullet to expand if possible.
Now i did shoot bullets as small as .3585 in the Marlin and it did ok butnot near as well as .360 and leaded a good bit.
Knowing that and the fact that the BH did not want to shoot the .3585 WD W/W and i wanted a bullet that would work in both the Marlin and BH i made the decision to enlarge the throats. I got real lucky when the same load gave the results that it did in both guns.
Will i be as lucky with the 180 gr bullet i dont know.Will work up a max.accurate load for the Ruger and then see what the Marlin thinks.If i have to use a diffrent load to get the accuracy and velocity i want in the Marlin that will be ok. Main goal is to use the same 180gr bullet in both.
Now i will quit defending my decision.
Thanks to all for your input.
Dwight

[RobS]

Now i will quit defending my decision.
Thanks to all for your input.
Dwight

No need to defend anything, it works for what you are wanting to do and your groups and guns are telling you they like what's going on as well. Keep on casting and shooting.