Corbins - Richard vs Dave and compatability

[Spanners]

I'm getting ready to purchase some swaging gear and have now come across Richard Corbin.
His presses look IDENTICAL to Daves but 1/2 the price.
The dies are also alot cheaper.

Whats the concensus on the above and will Daves dies fit Richards presses etc

I'll be looking at the 'H' setup (Dave) as I need to do 1.5" long bullets

Thanks

[Smokin7mm]

I did the same research about 10 years ago. I went with RCE. Richard is a really nice guy. He is a one man shop working out of a shop at his home. I have been pleased with my WH press and all the dies.
Bret

[Spanners]

I did the same research about 10 years ago. I went with RCE. Richard is a really nice guy. He is a one man shop working out of a shop at his home. I have been pleased with my WH press and all the dies.
Bret

Do the dies intercharge on the bigger of both 2 companies presses?

[Smokin7mm]

Not sure what you mean by bigger. are you talking the RCE H-dies for the hydraulic press? Richard makes an adapter so you can use the Corbin dies. Richards WH dies are threaded 7/8-14 where Corbins dies are like 5/8-20. Your best bet would be to contact them directly. I am not sure what the H-die threads are think they are 1.5-12, but they are much larger dies. What caliber bullets are you making that are 1.5" long. My 7mm jackets are 1.340 and they work fine on the RCE WH press. In fact the RCE website under the hand presses state the WH press will take 1.5-12 dies if you remove the insert or with insert in will accept the 7/8-14 dies and can make bullets up to 1.5" in length.
Bret

[Bullshop]

smokin7mm
If you got all you needed from R Corbin you are one of the lucky few.
There are many that never received thier entire order and now have parts they cant use.
D. Corbin is higher priced but he is always available, not sporadically or dependent on whim.

[Smokin7mm]

Bullshop,
I can only speak from my own experience. I got my WH press about 10 years ago when he was just getting started after leaving Corbins so I did not have a wait on that. Dies I have ordered I usually order about 4-6 months before my annual trip to Grants Pass for the West Coast Silhouette Championship (WCC). I make the trip down to Phoenix Oregon and visit Richard to pick up my dies. I have talked with him about a certain size punch etc and the last time I picked up my dies he said he would make them up and I came back the next day and picked it up. Probably doesnt hurt that I can deal face to face. I am sure there have been issues with both companies in fact I had a friend that ended up getting talked into a whole bunch of stuff he really didn't need by Dave Corbin. Like I stated I have not had any issues with RCE. Sounds like you may have had a bad experience with RCE. Did he make it right in the end?

[randmplumbingllc]

One problem that I have heard is the wait time between Richard and David Corbin. If it is a normal stock item, David will ship it out quickly. I have heard that Richard does not keep stock and will have to make your order.

If you don't mind the wait, the quality of RCE is very good. You might just have to wait for it. I have read that it could take months, or even years to get an order from RCE.

I could not wait that long, so I orderd a S press from David. It should arrive today. I orderd it about 2 weeks ago.

If it is a custom order, David says it could take 12-18 months for him to make the item. Since Richard is a part time , one man show, it could take longer then that. IMO.

[MIBULLETS]

Richards WH press can make the longer bullets too and his quality is good. If you want H dies Dave is the guy. Richard does make H dies for one of his hydrolic presses and they will fit Dave's large press. H die threads are 1' 12 tpi, S dies are 5/8" 24 tpi.

[Smokin7mm]

I re-read on the WH press on RCE's site and only the top is threaded 1.5-12 for use with larger reloading dies or special top punches and has a 7/8-14 insert for normal reloading dies and top punches. The ram is only threaded 7/8-14. I should know this as I have one except mine is one of the early ones that only has the single stroke setting where the new ones have the duel toggle for a longer stroke for reloading.
Bret

[Spanners]

What I find hard to believe is a 'up to 18 month' wait on dies from Corbins.

Dont get me wrong, I bet Dave is a top bloke who can prob talk both your ears off, and if you read his books you'll know where I'm coming from.

He states he has ~4 die makers and in employing more would make prices etc go up - BOLLOX I say

Now in his style of writing.... this is how I see it

If you have 4 die makers they are doing 1/4 years work each per year.. if you have a 18 month backlog, then you employ another die maker, make 25% more oney than you did last year and reduce that backlog to 14 months a year..
Over ~3 years you get rid of any backlogs, however you will have more business because people that want to swage and have the money, but cant handle waiting 1 year plus, will wait the short time due to no backlog, thus creating more business again and a small backlog again, in which the process can repeat if required and justified - however you're making more money with more customers and not pushing people away regardless

I know of 2 people who would buy today if they could have it in a few months... however 18months later??! not interested in persuing the idea.
Just them and myself, thats a 66% turn away rate, I bet in reality is FAR higher than that.
I'm still on the edge as to whether I can wait 18 months for some pretty basic 30 cal stuff...

[MIBULLETS]

Spanners. I totally agree.

I think in Corbin's books he states 4 employees, but I believe now it is 2 employees plus him and his wife and that's it! At least that's what he told me on the phone. The other thing that worries me is, Dave Corbin is no young man and if something were to happen to him where does that leave us? Hopefully one of his employees is in line to take over the company.

Richard is a one man shop. When he goes or decides to quit, we are done.

[Hammer]

With all due respect to the dire predictions....

IMHO: Swaging is here to stay. It was here before the Corbins, and will be here long after. They admittedly are the "highest class" game in town for extraordinary products, but there are several vendors who have stepped up to make a very acceptable product.

I have lost track of the folks in these threads willing to take the plans and build their own presses and dies. If I had the smarts and the machines, and the youth, I swould be all over this like flies on brown smelly stuff!

I'm betting there are more than a few willing to do the same thing. This isn't rocket science and there is lot's of room for experimentation, adaptation and originality. Just ask BT Sniper!

I readily admit the Corbins seem to have the high ground, so to speak, but only because a person with adequate resources hasn't taken the opportunity that is so clearly hanging out there.

Business is business and sooner or later someone will challenge their dominanation of this industry...

Just some more of my ramblings....:Fire:

[MIBULLETS]

You are right about them having the higher ground, especially when it comes to rifle dies. You can include Larry Blackmon in this too.

I must say though, that this backlog issue they both seem to have is nothing new and is only getting worse. Yet, no one has even tried to step up as far as I know, at least not to the volume and price point they are making dies for. There are benchrest die makers out there with good turn around time and excellent products, if you are will to pay thousands of dollars.

I know you're right, it may not be as bad as I made it sound, but is a possibility. Maybe this will wake someone up that does have those skills. As anyone who views this forum can see, there is a good market out there waiting to be supplied. Swaging will probably never die, but the ability of the man without machine skills to get the equipment could get worse.

[Spanners]

Spanners. I totally agree.

I think in Corbin's books he states 4 employees, but I believe now it is 2 employees plus him and his wife and that's it! At least that's what he told me on the phone. The other thing that worries me is, Dave Corbin is no young man and if something were to happen to him where does that leave us? Hopefully one of his employees is in line to take over the company.

Richard is a one man shop. When he goes or decides to quit, we are done.


If that is the case then another die maker = 50% more money a year and a 18 month backlog cleared in 3 years.
Having less of a backlog will have less people turn away, thus not having a redundant worker in 3 years time, as there is more work coming in.

Simple maths - with all the numbers he throws around in his writing, surely he can see it adds up?!?

Exactly what I did at my w/shop - simple maths, with the end numbers being $$$$ in your pocket

I dont know about most people but if I want to do something now and have the money, I want to be able to buy it - 18 months later somethign else would have come along and swaging will be nothing more than a distant memory

[techlava]

There are a number of bullet swaging die makers around in the bench rest trade that do a very good job.
The end of the world is not near, yet.

[Radio Flyer]

If that is the case then another die maker = 50% more money a year and a 18 month backlog cleared in 3 years.
Having less of a backlog will have less people turn away, thus not having a redundant worker in 3 years time, as there is more work coming in.

Simple maths - with all the numbers he throws around in his writing, surely he can see it adds up?!?

Exactly what I did at my w/shop - simple maths, with the end numbers being $$$$ in your pocket

I dont know about most people but if I want to do something now and have the money, I want to be able to buy it - 18 months later somethign else would have come along and swaging will be nothing more than a distant memory

The problem is the “I do what I want and charge what I want” mode of business that is typical of artisans and craftsmen...

If some company like LEE would step up with a working press and die combination for a reasonable price (like CH4D and they are behind also) possibly something based on the “convertible” heavy Corbin press or the old Mighty Mite press and dies the demand would be filled and there would be space for the high dollar dies...

Look at the prices for the bench-rest dies out there, nice products but not “that” nice and the end product is not any higher in quality than the Corbin results (it is how you use it).

Just a few calibers, .308, .22 in rifle and .355, .357, .400, and .451/2 for 45 acp. and swaging would become a standard part of reloading just as progressive and turret presses are here to stay and getting more popular.

[Spanners]

I realise its a 'I do what and when I want' but the excuses all through his writings are that another diemaker to reduce lead times results in higher product costs - bollox - more money, more customers

I've all but given up - i'm prepared to spend around ~$5k setting up - but not in 18months (maybe) time

[Radio Flyer]

I realise its a 'I do what and when I want' but the excuses all through his writings are that another diemaker to reduce lead times results in higher product costs - bollox - more money, more customers

I've all but given up - i'm prepared to spend around ~$5k setting up - but not in 18months (maybe) time

It’s not that we don’t understand, nor am I trying to make excuses for the lack of production...

The problem is that, sadly this is the situation and it is unwilling to change.

Let’s be honest some of the advice given by Dave will make you bankrupt in todays market, note also how primitive the website is... clearly he is unwilling to give marketing over to someone qualified and add workers to increase production.

He may be unwilling to invest more into what would clearly increase production.

He is less than his competition, and outside of die makers using the mighty might copies his competition is producing dies that work on reloading presses or slight modifications of reloading presses - that is old technology - it is over 40 years old!

Dave and Richard’s stuff is “state of the art” for home production...

As innovative as Mr. Lee from Lee precision is, I would love to see Lee make some reloading dies in the “standard calibers” shooting sports would benefit and swaging would drop in cost as would jackets and other tools.

For the record currently I have several thousand dollars in dies and presses from Corbin and even from CH4D (one die set).

[seppos]

In life, some people are totally happy when they have the every day bread and butter on the table..
Why expand and make more money if there is no need for it personally..?
I count the Corbin brothers belonging to that gategory.

I think that most of the swaging die makers are artists.. Own breed.. They make small amount of dies with perfection..

Mass production is good.. But I bet that RCBS for instance discovered that the markets still are too little to make swaging dies in mass production.
CH4D is nice low cost option.. Limited availability with options, but they atleast offer something for the beginners..

Maybe in time, there will be other options.. Now we have to live with these that are available.

S

[techlava]

Would you be willing to buy low cost high quality swaging dies made in China? It is only a matter of time with globalization these products would be available if it is legal. Injection molds costing $30,000 in US back in the 1080s with 4 month lead time is down to $2,000 and one month lead time in China.
If you got the drawings and specifications, I can probably get you a quotation from those same tool and die makers in a few weeks.

[hardcase54]

techlava, not meaning to be a smart-ss, but don't you have a contradiction of terms" low cost high quality". I've made die sets in .224 for my Corbin press and for a RCBS RS press and don't believe you will find quality dies for a low cost.

WDH

[techlava]

I have bought injection molds twenty years ago made with EDM at 1/3 or less cost in Far East that produced millions of plastic parts of the highest quality. Tools and dies got much cheaper when the Chinese got into the act. The Chinese just got paid less and they take a lower profit, they make it up in volume. Whither you like it or not, thats part of the reason why half the stuff in the stores are made in China, including high quality luxury goods. There are very capable workers in China that gets paid $100-$300/month. The injection molds that make the trash cans or I-phones are highest quality costs much less then in US. I did not say it is fair. I am just saying the skilled labor costs a lot less. over there. The quality control is a matter of management policy. I am just stating a fact, however unpalatable is for some of us. Remember when "made in Japan" was a slur in quality. I am not trying to sell the dies; my dies are old Hempstead and CH4D. I just know that if I order a few hundred Corbin look alike dies I can get it for about 20-30% the cost at comparable quality. Thinks how much your dies can cost if you get paid at $2/hr. All this is the consequences of free trade, supply and demand, and globalization.

[seppos]

If somebody would be interested to arrange a group buy for couple of common caliber swaging die sets.. lets say .224 and .30 with the price rate that techlava was talking about.. I would be more than interested to participate..

S

[Pavogrande]

Not me! while I think it too late in the "buy American, the job you save may be your own" debate i am not willing to support any more chinese or other low wage dictatorships.
I would think tooling and present day labor costs and taxes would not be encouraaging for a start-up company to make a good profit at building swage dies. CNC tooling is not cheap and non-CNC is too costly time wise. My ha-penny

[Spanners]

I think a couple of you might be missing the point

Its got nothign to do with the cost , its about the reasoning given in Corbins writings to justify buying X product and making Y money from it, and the fact he doesnt apply the same logic to another die maker to get rid of backlogs.

I'm quite happy to pay the asking prices - (except the Hydro Press - I'll build my own - hydro conversion of a H press)
Its the backlogs that are ******** along with the 'if we employ more people then prices will go up'
His writings are all backed around $$ figures - something that he doesnt seem to be interested in via more output and less backlog = more customers and money?~!

CNC is not an option as you'll find it very hard to hold tolerances of under 1 thou - VERY hard

[techlava]

You can easily hold tolerance at less the .001" with EDM CNC. Thats how the $2000 to $4000 dollar custom BR dies are made with carbide dies.

[bohica2xo]

Well, good luck with that 20 cent on the dollar chink tooling, especially asking for .0001 tolerances. A plastic injection mould is far from a set of bullet dies. The third world can make two plastic parts match each other flawlessly. The cell phone case may be .015 bigger that the original print, but who cares? The inside may have a finish like 20 miles of bad road - but again it does not matter.

Spanners, I admire your fortitude to wade through all of that text. There must be 6 or 8 corbin sites, they all give me a headache - and open enough new windows to make me scream. That is before I read the content. His business model needs some fine tuning for sure.

Of course the other corbin has a different model. He has a long backlog, but sells the same tools on e-bay for twice the price. I would not be happy if I had waited a year for dies & found them for sale on e-bay.

Good luck with your quest.

B.

[Radio Flyer]

We all may be missing a point, the beginner and the hobbies guys and the possibility of outsourced products.

Where do the Chinese get the dies to make rifle and pistol bullets to load and sell to the US? (or did) how about the Russians?

How about limited options and low price to get new guys in the game...

Try and convince a new guy to wait 18 months for a set of dies... Currently a buddy has an order in for a point forming die from Dave at Corbin and it is over 16 months now, with at least several more to go...

A set of mighty mite dies and a cast iron press would be a great starter, now is the time to promote swaging, I think it could return, I think the need/demand is there.

.45, .400, .355, .357 (or not), .308 7s, and .224 6s, at a good price, could work.

On the issue of quality and where it comes from... you would be shocked how much of even (US made) items are Chinese. Your new Ford and GM car, I think it would shock people if they understood how much of that is outsourced, and yes it is far too late for this to be a political issue at this point.

At this point, I would be happy to see any company pitch in, and I would be happier if it did not take 24 months and had stuff in stock with prices to tempt the new guy...

[Spanners]

Try and convince a new guy to wait 18 months for a set of dies... .


EXACTLY my point (one of them anyway lol)

I'm goign to get hold off a Corbin H press and build a retrofit kit to turn it into a Hydro - anyone got a Hydro for a couple of pics???

I dont however have the time (or patience) to be involved with dies as I'm away workign 6 months of the year

Any tool maker or compentent machinest could make a set of dies, however its a 'what you draw is what you get' result.