Visible ring in forcing cone

[jandbn]

I would like to get thoughts and opinions about the forcing cone on my Bisley 45 SS 5 1/2. As can be seen in the picture, there is a ring where the bullet appears to be impacting the forcing cone. Maybe the ring means nothing? But to me it would seem that cylinder and bore alignment is off. The ring on the left side of the cone is closer to the beginning of the forcing cone than when the ring moves around the circumference toward the right side of the cone. In fact, the ring doesn’t even exist on the right side of the cone. As the ring proceeds from the left side of the cone both up and down and around to the right side of the cone, the ring widens and then disappears.

The last batches of slugs through the Bisley were 280 LFNGC’s around 1200 fps using H110 and WLPs. The 22 BHN LFNGC’s measured .4526. All cylinder throats are a consistent .4519 and barrel bore at the breech end is .4516. Because I happened to notice the ring in the cone, I didn’t clean the barrel so I could get pictures of the cone. I took the best picture I had and enhanced it so the ring was more visible. But in doing so, the color in the picture isn’t what the naked eye would see.

In your opinion about the ring in the cone, is the cylinder out of time, the cone not centered with the bore, bore not centered with the frame, etc. or maybe even tolerance stack? When viewing the cylinder throats through the bore with a white background on the face of the recoil shield, I can not see the side of a cylinder throat wall, but my 51 year old eyes aren’t exactly young anymore either.

The Bisley has only had 500 rounds through it. The bore was and still is restricted at the frame barrel junction and I have fire lapped after about 200 rounds had already been sent down range. The cylinder does not (never did) lock up like a “bank vault” since I purchased it NIB. The rotational play that does exist in cylinder should allow the bullet nose and body of the slug to align with the cone, but maybe there’s not enough play? I had the cylinder tolerances measured at the machine shop by a co-worker with a spiffy new machine, so I know the cylinder throat location is in spec to the tune of .0002-.0004. Maybe the throats need to be opened up to .4525? I’m not sure yet about the pros and cons of opening the throats up, but in this case, even if the slug was even able to be pushed through the throat with slight finger pressure, I don’t believe it would help with cylinder to bore alignment.

I am far from being proficient at shooting a revolver, but from a bench and with decent loads doing my part, I can average 2 to 2 1/2 inch groups at 25 yards with open sights. Don’t get me wrong. I am not saying I’m happy with current group size. I’d love nothing better than to see groups half of that. Unlike my days of yore, accuracy now trumps velocity.

There have only been 280 to 325 grain WFN and LFN slugs (zero copper) through the Bisley. It is more than likely a combination of many things, but it seems that the shorter slugs give better accuracy. Overall, the Bisley’s accuracy isn’t terrible but what can I expect accuracy to do long term if the ring in the cone is an indication of misalignment? Will shooting more make the cone oblong (in this case, ‘obwide’ for lack of a better word) if it isn’t already and that average groups sizes will open up or will “breaking in” the cone by shooting more shrink average group size. I don’t want to spend $ on tools to re-cut the cone or take the Bisley to a smith to make any necessary improvements. So if the cone warrants sending the Bisley back to Ruger, would Ruger even consider fixing it on their dime? Or maybe the ring isn’t even the result of the slug being misaligned and there isn’t anything to worry about?

[leftiye]

Might just be that ruger cut the forcing cone crooked. Boom Boom had one that wobbled horribly when the barrel was zeroed on a pin gauge that fit tight in the bore of the barrel. I'd say that Rugers may not be perfectly line bored, but that they've got a great reputation for shooting cast boolits. Thay (Rugers) also have had many many thangs thet waren't cut (machined) quite right. Not to mention rifling cut with a rasp or file.

P.S. It doesn't look very awful to me!

[outdoorfan]

Unless it's leading there at the cone I don't think I'd worry about it. The gun should definitly shoot better than 2-2.5 inches at 25 yards, but that could be something in the load or something with the shooter. :razz:

[jandbn]

outdoorfan,

I will be the first to admit I am not a good shot with revolver, even from a bench. And then my eyes aren't the best either. Unfortunately, I can't take shooter error out of the equation and I don't know any shooters in the area (haven't lived here long enough) that have been at it for a while, so at this point is is somewhat a guessing game as to if it is me, the revolver, or load combos. On occasion, I can get 1 1/4 -1 1/2 groups rested at 25 yards, but that is definitely not the norm. I have tried over 20 bullet weight and powder combinations and 2 - 2 1/2 inch rested is the norm. I am not new to hand loading, so I don't believe it is my reloading technique. However, that being said, I didn't know squat before finding CB and reading things I didn't have a clue about when I first started reloading in the early 80's.

Based on what folk say here, I should be able to get better groups that what I am currently getting. I was hoping somebody would chime in that they have seen the same ring in the forcing cone and what was causing it and if it was detrimental to accuracy.

[Bass Ackward]

Congratulations. You have found out why revolvers have a forcing cone.

I can tell you are focused on this. It's really eatin at you. And it is probably going to consume you for some time. What'll drive you nuts is if you change loads and it flips to the other side.

That gun will answer every question that you have. If it's alignment, it will confirm it by working to correct it. If you need larger throats, it is going to show you that eventually with accuracy and leading when it didn't before.

The only guys that have to worry about gun break-in are the guys that have too many guns or guys that don't shoot. Those bullets are the perfect tools. They will loosen that gun up mechanically if it needs to be. It will cut you a new cone if it needs one. IF the bores out of alignment or rough, no problem, it will cut you the true smooth path. Which is the only reason I can think of that you might eventually need larger throats.

That gun is going to take care of you if you'll just shoot it. But 500 rounds ain't gointa geter done. Why 500 rounds can't even tell you if it needs hard bullets or softer. This lube or that. I wouldn't even look at it again until I had 2000 rounds through it.

And they all seem to continue to improve up to about 10k -12k rounds. But you aught to see enough signs by 2000 to let you know if you can live with her or not.

[44man]

The bad thing is that bullets or boolits, either one, will also wear the throats off center.
I never believed Bass because I never seen that kind of wear until recently and it was not a Ruger but a high dollar gun that showed bad throat, cone and rifling wear off center after only about 300 rounds.
It was so bad even a throat reamer did not touch one side on the fronts of each throat.
If the gun was mine I would time it, gently re-cut and polish the cone.
But again, since it is a Ruger, call them for a prepaid box and send it back.
I for one do not believe in wearing out a gun hoping accuracy will improve to what I demand.
When everything is in line you would be surprised how LITTLE wear you will get, never seen and hard to measure.

[bhn22]

It appears that your forcing cone may be cut slightly out-of-round. If your bullets were actually tilted that much you wouldn't be able to hit the broad side of a barn. From indoors. It's an easy fix with the right tools.

[jandbn]

Leftiye,

I was a die-hard Ruger fan in the 80’s. In that era, I owned a Single Six 22 LR/Mag, 41 BH, 44 SBH, M77 22-250 varmint, and a M77 300 WinMag. Other than the SS 22, I hand loaded for what I owned. I even shot my only black bear with the SBH. For various reasons, I gave up hand loading/shooting/hunting toward the end of the 80s, but I never lost my love affair with Rugers. Now 20 years later I had the opportunity to get back into the sport again. If it wasn’t for CB I wouldn’t have jumped back in the game with a revolver. I had a M77 Laminated Compact researched and all picked out. So regardless of how the Bisley is behaving, I don’t plan on getting rid of it. I am in love with the looks and feel of it and an SBH don’t hold a candle to it. If I need to spend some $ on it I will, but it won’t be in the near future. With the current family obligations, I can just barely afford one hobby, and the Bisley is it. As you said, “It doesn't look very awful”, but I would like the reassurance it is OK so I can be confident with the revolver.

Bass,

I was expecting the response you gave after reading so many of your other posts in the past. I do appreciate you input. From previous posts, you have certainly “been there, done that”. I think your break in “theory” has merit and is why I mentioned it in my original post, but I’m not as patient as you seem to be. I don’t want to wait a couple thousand rounds to determine if the revolver is going to be accurate; there are too many accounts of revolvers that are out of the box accurate. When I reloaded for the 44 SBH and before I really knew good reloading/shooting techniques, I could get 1 1/2” benched groups at 25 yard consistently. If the SBH was capable of that type of accuracy when I was young and dumb, the Bisley should be able to do just as good if not better now that I have more reloading and shooting experience plus a college level degree here on CB.

What I neglected to mention in my original post is that I had noticed the ring when shooting 300 WFNGC’s using various charges of both H110 and Trail Boss. I had cleaned the revolver prior to shooting various charges of H110 and TB behind the 280 LFNGC’s. Both slugs left a ring in the cone in the same shape and location regardless of which powder and charge weight was used. If the ring were to move to the other side of the cone, I would be surprised because of what I have experienced so far. But as you have so elegantly stated many times, “professor gun” could certainly prove me wrong.


44man,

In no way by saying this that Bass is wrong, but I do agree with your statement that “wearing out a gun hoping accuracy will improve”. Being impatient to see what I deem as acceptable accuracy seems to your statement that much more credence.

BHN22,

As I’ve mentioned, the Bisley is my hobby and I can barely support it. So at this point, I can’t justify purchasing tools that may or may not address the ring in the cone. If Ruger is willing, I would rather send it to them to try fix, if they are so inclined to provide their renowned customer service. I am crossing my fingers they are willing take a look at it. I guess I won’t know unless I call!

[Bass Ackward]

Good luck. I just got a new Ruger 44 Special. It was perfect right out of the box. Shot anything and everything.

Not now. (about 4k) It is hitting low left and needs a strong design, harder than hell to get to the same performance level. IT gets worse the colder she gets. (they don't always get better)

Is it surprising? Would you blueprint a new engine block? Not me, I want an OLD one that has been through the ringer not only for miles, but temperature.

This is why Freedoms can develop problems. The are aligned when new, but will shift if the gun seats in differently mechanically or as the stress comes out of the steel simply from the maunufacturing process.

To tell you the truth, yours is so slight that if you left it out for a few hours in this temperature, it might be back in. Or it can be worse. OR you could be cocking it too fast and momentum takes the cylinder to the far side of the notch. (@ .006 play) Again the purpose for the cone.

That's why good smiths like older guns to build on. Whether that is rifles or handguns. It is also why barrel / gun break in takes 365 days as much as a number of rounds. And the build will be more stable. Yep, line bore right where she is.

So that's why it takes 10k-12k. The wear needs to occur at the final mechanical resting / operating position.

[Char-Gar]

Looks like a typical Ruger factory forcing cone. That is why we recut them to a long 11% taper. Recutting often gives accuracy a boost , but never hurts anything.

I bought a set of tools from Brownell to recut the forcing cones about 15 years ago, and have recut several dozen Colt, Rugers and Smiths. It has really cured some problem pistols. It is rather common to find the barrels not 100% in alignment with the frame/cylinder.

[992B]

jandbn, have a good gunsmith cut an 11 degree forcing cone and enjoy this gun for the rest of your life with little or no repairs.

gary

[44man]

I cut my .44 Ruger to 11* 30 years ago but never had to touch any BFR. No SRH has needed work.
I had to do much work on a Freedom.
No matter, if the throats do not align, no change to the cone will help much and will still wear funny.
I shoot my guns from over 100* in the summer to below zero in the winter with no change at all. I have not even found a need to go to a mag primer in the .44 at all.
Powder choice will change POI as weather changes and is why I stay with 296. 4227 will drive a guy nuts! I don't know what fast powders do.
You need to use a gauge when cutting a cone so you don't open too far. Some guns can't be touched at all.
I am betting the POI change Bass sees is powder, not the gun.

[Bass Ackward]

I am betting the POI change Bass sees is powder, not the gun.


It can be. Doesn't matter though. Out is out. Question is: is it worth cutting steel?

If you are shooting 2" groups with open sights after you haven't shot a gun for 20 years with 500 rounds of practice, I wouldn't worry about it.

[RobS]

My experiences with the forcing cone gauges are a suggestion, but one to consider. I've went past where the gauge tells one to stop so I could cut a fresh clean angle that would reach the lands and have not had any ill effects thus far with degrading accuracy. Others who have cut forcing cones will concure as cutting a forcing cone often means there are problems with it and is creating inaccuracies. Now I'm not saying that a person can cut a cone in so far that it takes over common sense as that would for sure destroy accuracy or increase the chances of cracked forcing cones which would ultimately ruin the barrel.

The opening of the mouth of the forcing cone is suggested to be .02 larger than the bullet diameter as to what is said to be for best accuracy. This may very well be true and I suspect there as been enough research to back this measurement, but unless a person wants to take the barrel off to set it back along with spending the extra money that a person may not have to fix it perfectly by a gunsmith then the alternative is a greatly improved revolver which once shot grapefruit size groups but later shoots 2 inch groups or under but has a bit larger/longer of forcing cone...........well, many people who are in the described situation are more than happy with such results. This doesn't mean these results are acceptable for all though.

If a person shoots bullets that fit the cylinder throat snug and are long enough to be fully supported by the cylinder (still in the cylinder) as the bullet makes way into the barrel's throat and bore then it's highly likely that accuracy will be as good as a cone cut to the perfect dimensions. The shorter bullets are where an enlarged forcing cone mouth may give more problems concerning accuracy. A lot also depends on the alignment of the cylinder throats to the bore as well. This goes to say with any revolver though as if everything was straight as an arrow then there would be little need for a forcing cone, but as it is this in not the case.

[44man]

What can I say? :holysheep
RobS talks good sense again. I too have gone a little past the gauge with no bad affects. But I have seen new guns that the gauge just dropped in too far so I just lap a little.
I HATE to cut any metal unless it really is needed because it is easy enough to time a cylinder that is off a tad. Cutting a larger hole is not my way. Wearing a hole off center is fully against my thoughts.