double barrel flintlock

[camerl2009]

ok so just to clear things up im buying the book Recreating the Double Barrel Muzzleloading Shotgun and see what it tells me to use.

and as far as the flintlocks im making a selling im buying the barrels from
a supplier i will talk more on this later

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Tell me more about these flinter doubles.

Rich

[camerl2009]

Tell me more about these flinter doubles.

Rich

well i want to make a double barrel flintlock shotgun
idk what gauge yet but i have to get set up

only one i see out there is a 20ga at middlesex but its made in india and not so good.

i will see what happens i tell you from there :bigsmyl2:

[DIRT Farmer]

Most of the makers are using smaller bore barrels from cap guns that are trashed but have sound barrels. the thought is why go to the effert of building a classic gun and not make it purdy(h)
A 10 or 12 have a long reach to set the cocks, a 16 or 20 are a delight for the field. the hardest part to making the design flow is the mounting of the locks to the barrels, not having the back of the locks tipped out and giving the apperance of a wide butted rear. Don't be afraid of building one and tossing the wood and redoing it. Guage depends on what you intend to use it for. Match use, 10 or 12, field, smaller except for waterfoul, then use a 10.

[camerl2009]

Most of the makers are using smaller bore barrels from cap guns that are trashed but have sound barrels. the thought is why go to the effert of building a classic gun and not make it purdy(h)
A 10 or 12 have a long reach to set the cocks, a 16 or 20 are a delight for the field. the hardest part to making the design flow is the mounting of the locks to the barrels, not having the back of the locks tipped out and giving the apperance of a wide butted rear. Don't be afraid of building one and tossing the wood and redoing it. Guage depends on what you intend to use it for. Match use, 10 or 12, field, smaller except for waterfoul, then use a 10.

12ga or 20ga is what im going for but we will see

[DIRT Farmer]

I happen to be one of the weirdos who like the middle (16) or little. Modern barrels work if the chambers are removed, however the gun comes out shorter than I like. Now if you could luck into a 34 or 36 inch long set of modern tubes.

[camerl2009]

I happen to be one of the weirdos who like the middle (16) or little. Modern barrels work if the chambers are removed, however the gun comes out shorter than I like. Now if you could luck into a 34 or 36 inch long set of modern tubes.

i dont want to use good modern barrels im buying the book
and will go from there i still cant find any makers form NMLRA/frindship

[mckutzy]

So what kind of double are u going to build, o/u.. sxs. Does this book explain about the regulation of the barrels.
Are u going to make these to sell? and what kind of barrel material are u going to use, modern barrels seem to a great choice if cheap and easy to get?

[camerl2009]

So what kind of double are u going to build, o/u.. sxs. Does this book explain about the regulation of the barrels.

SXS the regulation is easy cut and file the barrels even as you can
then file the high spots test shoot and then finish the gun

but like i said the book tells what you need to do.
look at it this way its not made in india like the other's are

[DIRT Farmer]

Our forum went the way of many forums, and was closed. Most of the discussion takes place around the campfires, ranges and the porch at Gunmakers hall. There is a constant display at Gunmakers hall during the nationial shoots. American Long Rifles has a forum.

[hickstick_10]

SXS the regulation is easy cut and file the barrels even as you can
then file the high spots test shoot and then finish the gun

but like i said the book tells what you need to do.
look at it this way its not made in india like the other's are

Maybe you should read the book FIRST before you right off regulation as that easy[smilie=1:

Mckutzy: The book describes using barrels from old breech loading doubles that in "theory" have already been regulated. The author covers separating uneven barrels briefly. There's also some pretty guns made old Damascus barrels.

[camerl2009]

Maybe you should read the book FIRST before you right off regulation as that easy[smilie=1:

Mckutzy: The book describes using barrels from old breech loading doubles that in "theory" have already been regulated. The author covers separating uneven barrels briefly. There's also some pretty guns made old Damascus barrels.

well im going my way. breech loading double barrels are hard to come buy and i dont want to take a good gun apart for the barrels so im making the barrel
hell even i i can find a working or non working double gun for the barrels i still have to register the receiver for a gun i cant shoot

[hickstick_10]

well im going my way. breech loading double barrels are hard to come buy and i dont want to take a good gun apart for the barrels so im making the barrel
hell even i i can find a working or non working double gun for the barrels i still have to register the receiver for a gun i cant shoot

You need to go to gunshows, or an ACTUAL gunsmith in your area. Old doubles and barrels are common. You can order them from Tradex as well,

http://www.shop.tradeexcanada.com/produits/73

A vast majority of the old "working" double guns out there are cheap hardware store junkers that should be deactivated anyways.......................think about it.
You register the receiver, not the barrels. And most places that deal in used guns carry these old, worn out, side by sides and they cant give them away. The lock ups are usually loose and the action is rusted and there's no way to get spare parts, but who cares? You want the barrels after all.

Keep the barrel,get the gunsmith to deactivate the loose, junker receiver with a sledge hammer. This fear of registration (as stupid as the long gun registry is) is unfounded. I dont understand why its such a big deal unless you dont have a PAL.............

You might even be able to turn the receiver into the RCMP.

With all your inquiries about making firearms, perhaps some training in machining or gunsmithing may point you in the right direction rather then trying to regulate a pair of un reamed pipes with no knowledge on how to do it. The arm would be dangerous and nearly useless without some form of choke and no one would buy them. And if you sold them as a safe gun and the "arm" bulged, leaked or blew a barrel, your in hot water to say the least.

Again, if you dont have the equipment, knowledge (and few men do on how to join and regulate barrels) or a PAL to purchase a registered long gun in Canada, purchase flintlock fowler kit from the US. No need to register.

These questions of yours are suspiciously starting to sound like a very young person is asking them. No one can tell you what to do of course, but the info others have given you before is sound. The fact that you want to make a muzzle loader shotgun with ridiculously heavy and unturned pipe for a barrel is dangerous. Looking for info on how to do it, and admitting you want to sell these contraptions is irresponsible.

[gnoahhh]

The desire to do for oneself what one can't buy is to be applauded. That attitude of craftsmanship is fast disappearing from our society and needs to be supported at every turn. Such is the basis of cottage industry. BUT, a slow rational approach to such matters as gun building is called for. To jump in feet first without an open mind and willingness to learn the techniques required is totally irresponsible. Getting and reading "the book" is the first step. Listening to people who have experience in that realm is another. Slow experimentation with methods of construction is yet another. A double barreled flintlock is a lofty goal, and a worthy one. But anything less than perfection of line and careful attention to the geometry of the piece will result in an abomination that will be the laughing stock of anyone who sees it, or worse, an accident waiting to happen. It is an endeavor sure to consume hundreds, if not thousands, of hours to master. There is a reason why hand built English doubles are so expensive, and that's it.

If I were to attempt such a project, I would definitely start with a good set of barrels, 30-32" long from a breech loader. Get some good ones. A set of hardware store grade barrels will probably work, but with all of the time and effort going into this why scrimp? You'll have to hook-breech both barrels so they fit into a common breech with one tang. That'll undoubtedly mean un-soldering them, and making a jig to hold them in perfect alignment while the ribs are re-laid and soldered. You won't escape the nightmare of regulation no matter what. (Not to mention the nightmare of chasing solder up and down the length of the barrels for both the top and bottom ribs simultaneously. Another reason barrel layers and regulators make good money.)

[fishhawk]

well guys he's going "his" way no mater what we advise no mater the results or people hurt. might as well save your time posting he's got his mind made up. steve k

[camerl2009]

well guys he's going "his" way no mater what we advise no mater the results or people hurt. might as well save your time posting he's got his mind made up. steve k

ive got barrel makers that im buying the tubes off of

[camerl2009]

You need to go to gunshows, or an ACTUAL gunsmith in your area. Old doubles and barrels are common. You can order them from Tradex as well,

http://www.shop.tradeexcanada.com/produits/73

A vast majority of the old "working" double guns out there are cheap hardware store junkers that should be deactivated anyways.......................think about it.
You register the receiver, not the barrels. And most places that deal in used guns carry these old, worn out, side by sides and they cant give them away. The lock ups are usually loose and the action is rusted and there's no way to get spare parts, but who cares? You want the barrels after all.

Keep the barrel,get the gunsmith to deactivate the loose, junker receiver with a sledge hammer. This fear of registration (as stupid as the long gun registry is) is unfounded. I dont understand why its such a big deal unless you dont have a PAL.............

You might even be able to turn the receiver into the RCMP.

With all your inquiries about making firearms, perhaps some training in machining or gunsmithing may point you in the right direction rather then trying to regulate a pair of un reamed pipes with no knowledge on how to do it. The arm would be dangerous and nearly useless without some form of choke and no one would buy them. And if you sold them as a safe gun and the "arm" bulged, leaked or blew a barrel, your in hot water to say the least.

Again, if you dont have the equipment, knowledge (and few men do on how to join and regulate barrels) or a PAL to purchase a registered long gun in Canada, purchase flintlock fowler kit from the US. No need to register.

These questions of yours are suspiciously starting to sound like a very young person is asking them. No one can tell you what to do of course, but the info others have given you before is sound. The fact that you want to make a muzzle loader shotgun with ridiculously heavy and unturned pipe for a barrel is dangerous. Looking for info on how to do it, and admitting you want to sell these contraptions is irresponsible.

ive seen them old doubles from there i dont have the hart to take a gun that can
be fixed yes thay can be fixed i like the old ones with short chambers

[hickstick_10]

well guys he's going "his" way no mater what we advise no mater the results or people hurt. might as well save your time posting he's got his mind made up. steve k

Agreed 100 percent Fishhawk!!

Also consider that the OP may not have a PAL (possession acquisition license) to own firearms, or under age to own firearms. The reason I mention it are many of his threads are based on making guns from parts that dont require a license. Alot of his posts are seeking advice for some projects which are dangerous, or just plain illiegal here.

That in itself means nothing, but why else would someone want to make barrels from pipe or try to join a set of muzzle loading barrels with no equipment?

We dont want someone hurting themselves after all.

[mckutzy]

the problem with the short chambers is finding ammo for them. 2 3/4" is now basically the standard length "short chamber".

[camerl2009]

Agreed 100 percent Fishhawk!!

Also consider that the OP may not have a PAL (possession acquisition license) to own firearms, or under age to own firearms. The reason I mention it are many of his threads are based on making guns from parts that dont require a license.

That in itself means nothing, but why else would someone want to make barrels from pipe or try to join a set of muzzle loading barrels with no equipment?

We dont want someone hurting themselves after all.

i have a pal,rpal and 12.3 and 12.6 prohibited
i dont have all the bells and whistles as for tools
i dont like destroying guns for no reason if i can fix the problem
as for the hole thing about making barrels i have talked to some people that have done so and my idea will work just fine hell how do you think barrrels
where made before all the fancy machines

[camerl2009]

the problem with the short chambers is finding ammo for them. 2 3/4" is now basically the standard length "short chamber".

lol finding ammo its called make it most of the old guns like that are blackpowder
any way

[FrankG]

Why didnt you buy the barrels off of Taylor on ALR ? He's in Canada ?

[mckutzy]

I remember the days of old as a kid(im not that old for the record) wanting to get a gun and not being able to get a license or when I found out about the whole licensing thing for flinters and there wasnt any. ya I thought long and hard about things i could do. but then i got a chance to fire for real, a brownbess musket, it was really cool. it also compleatly changed my thought process on the whole black powder thing.
Flintlocks are about 300 odd years old, (the technology) altho today with modern materials and manufacturing practices the gun is still is mysterious as was the early days of gunpowder use. with that being said.. the respect of the black has been passed aswell for the most part to these manufactures today. as a user of Black powder firearms I have taken these element to heart when and if i use and handle Bp and flintlocks, all us BP guy do.

[camerl2009]

Why didnt you buy the barrels off of Taylor on ALR ? He's in Canada ?

like i said on ALR im putting the double on the back burner
and the barrels have choke's that i have to cut off cant have a fixed chokes
on a muzzleloader it thay where removable id still have to cut them off(i dont like chokes :-P)

[hickstick_10]

i have a pal,rpal and 12.3 and 12.6 prohibited
i dont have all the bells and whistles as for tools
i dont like destroying guns for no reason if i can fix the problem
as for the hole thing about making barrels i have talked to some people that have done so and my idea will work just fine hell how do you think barrrels
where made before all the fancy machines

My mistake questioning if you had a PAL, its just someone who asks as strange of questions as you do about building firearms raises alot of questions, because some of the ideas are so dangerous that no one who owns a gun would ask them. I am curious if you have even seen a side by side shotgun because the barrels aren't just 2 round peices of tube soldered down the middle.

Barrels? Were made by trained barrel makers whose product had to pass several proof firings, and even they wouldn't use pipe. Whoever told you its ok to use pipe for shotgun tubes is a lunatic.

Again, most of those side by sides are basket cases, the K-car of guns, not worth fixing, or they can't be fixed. The cost of one of those old doubles can be much LESS then purchasing loose barrels. What makes it even stranger is you want to make these firearms to sell, so why not use a better product which costs less, is higher quality and all the regulating, fitting and soldering is done for you. You said yourself you have limited equipment so why??, because of some affection and care to every rusty hunk of steel that ever shot and you haven't seen yet?

You could buy 2 barrels at over a hundred bucks a peice from Track The Wolf, or a joined set of barrels, plus springs and spare parts from on old double for around a hundred bucks or much less.

Unless your breech is being made for you as well, you would need some way besides a file to fit the breech. Used lathes are cheap in eastern Canada, maybe consider getting one, which would help your endeavor along much easier. Even the book you ordered is based on the fact you have a junked set of barrels.

Ah well, I've said to much, its your gun and best of luck.

[camerl2009]

You could buy 2 barrels at over a hundred bucks a peice from Track The Wolf, or a joined set of barrels, plus springs and spare parts from on old double for around a hundred bucks or much less.



TOW dont have round barrels there are octagon to round it can be done with
them but not to good and there not going to shoot to good
but the tube made for hydraulic lines is what i was told to use its true seamless
and thick wall the alloy of it matters to. im done with this for now im not selling these. how ever i think i can do a rifle double we will see

[gnoahhh]

Let the chokes in the thing. I shoot a Pedersoli 12 ga. double, choked IC and Mod. No trouble whatsoever with loading it, and it patterns beautifully. The wads compress as they pass through the choke and spring back afterward. I thought there would be issues with the over shot wads but they hold firm too. The load in the unfired barrel doesn't shift even after several shots.

[camerl2009]

Let the chokes in the thing. I shoot a Pedersoli 12 ga. double, choked IC and Mod. No trouble whatsoever with loading it, and it patterns beautifully. The wads compress as they pass through the choke and spring back afterward. I thought there would be issues with the over shot wads but they hold firm too. The load in the unfired barrel doesn't shift even after several shots.

yes thay are nice but he dont list what choke there are so idk id not use anything over mod with a fixed choke the wad like to give some porblems with tight chokes

[waksupi]

Cam, do you have some pictures of the guns you have previously built?

[camerl2009]

Cam, do you have some pictures of the guns you have previously built?

pic dont like to work for me on any forum idk why thay just dont

[NoZombies]

Pics are pretty easy, there are tutorials on the site.

Otherwise, you could just link to an album someplace.

We like pictures. :)

[FrankG]

Chokes ??????? $20 will get you an expandable reamer and if you are careful and use good oil you can remove the chokes .

[mckutzy]

pic dont like to work for me on any forum idk why thay just dont

ok what did u build describe it/them to us. locks stocks barrels and who breached your barrels?

[hickstick_10]

I dont think Camerl2009 ever said he built any firearms, so its not fair to grill him like this.

If he doesn't want to accept ideas well that's his prerogative, but lets not put words in his mouth (unless I missed something).

My hope for a manufactured 410 flintlock double may very well rest in this mans experiments...................why oh why wont pedersoli make one of those???? That would be just about the sweetest shooting BP firearm around.

Heck I'd even settle for a cap lock.

[gnoahhh]

Build yourself one. All you need is two pieces of 7/16 ID seamless steel tubing and...

[camerl2009]

http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/mepages/4130tubing_short.php

never say never lol this tube is what i was told to use [smilie=s:

[FrankG]

Didnt see any with a suitable wall thickness listed for breech .

[gnoahhh]

Sigh...

[camerl2009]

so 1"- .624 = .376 wall its can take 90,000psi and i think its just right

[camerl2009]

so 1"- .624 = .376 wall its can take 90,000psi and i think its just right

you for got to divide that sorry it is a .188 wall. but i think it will be ok why well the breech im using has a powder chamber in it

[gnoahhh]

Can someone translate this? There is a reason for punctuation and spelling. It's so people can understand what you're saying!

[hickstick_10]

It does look like that text message lingo the teenagers use, doesn't it?

One moment he has barrels, next moment its back to tubes, one moment he has the info on how to build the shotgun, next moment hes asking how to ream out chokes.

Confusing to say the least.

[mckutzy]

Im so glad I wasnt the only one that noticed this. sadly unfortunately I didnt say anything. this is with all his posts.

[camerl2009]

well this tubing was my original idea but that got locked but i know it safe and i have had
a few people say so i mite use a set of 12ga barrels but its not easy to get them here
without destroying a gun yes some are in bad shape but id still dont like doing that sort of thing thay make nice wall hangers. and i have found a few but i have to destroy the
receiver yes id have to turn in a good parts receiver to be crushed why i dont like to have to
register thing i cant shoot i all ready have i gun i cant shoot any more.

[hickstick_10]

well this tubing was my original idea but that got locked but i know it safe and i have had
a few people say so i mite use a set of 12ga barrels but its not easy to get them here
without destroying a gun yes some are in bad shape but id still dont like doing that sort of thing thay make nice wall hangers. and i have found a few but i have to destroy the
receiver yes id have to turn in a good parts receiver to be crushed why i dont like to have to
register thing i cant shoot i all ready have i gun i cant shoot any more.

But I thought you got barrels already?


ok im getting some 12ga barrel sets and thay have fixed chokes
i need to ream them out if there to tight and one know where i can get a choke
reamer

[camerl2009]

But I thought you got barrels already?

i said getting its not a sure thing affter talking to the people i was going to buy them from id have to destroy the receiver and the barrel are not always a
good and with no supplyer of the tools i need to ream out the chokes
i cant go that way. i almost had to sets of barrels 10ga and 12ga but as noted above i dont like to destroy history no matter what shape or form

[NoZombies]

Cam, please satisfy my curiosity; How old are you?

When it comes to guns, caution should be word number one. If you refuse to heed the advice given by people who know more than you do, it compounds your ignorance, and you can't expect them to continue giving you advice.

Be polite, be respectful, and feel free to ask people *why* they're saying what they are.

A little punctuation would be helpful as well.

My grandfather once said to me; "Son, it's best not to make mistakes in life, but if you must, be sure to err on the side of caution."

[camerl2009]

Cam, please satisfy my curiosity; How old are you?

When it comes to guns, caution should be word number one. If you refuse to heed the advice given by people who know more than you do, it compounds your ignorance, and you can't expect them to continue giving you advice.

Be polite, be respectful, and feel free to ask people *why* they're saying what they are.

A little punctuation would be helpful as well.

My grandfather once said to me; "Son, it's best not to make mistakes in life, but if you must, be sure to err on the side of caution."

well i was told that the tube is ok to use by a few makers
that stuff in the link can take 90,000psi so i think im in the clear

[NoZombies]

Who told you it was okay?

Did you understand anything in my post?

[fishhawk]

as stated before his mind is made up to use pipe reguardless if safe or not. so save your time and frustration and let him have at it with his pipe bombs. what i wonder is if he's set on doing it that way why even bother to come here in the first place and ask for help and opinions he's the expert.

[NoZombies]

Yeah, I'm done with this. I'll watch the news for the kid in Canada who kills himself with a muzzle loader and they take away even more "privileges" form Canadian citizens.

[gnoahhh]

Heck, I don't care if he injures himself through stupidity. He's been warned enough now to be aware of the dangers. If he goes through with it it's on him. Prime candidate for a Darwin Award if you ask me.

What does concern me though, and what brought me back on several occasions, is the poor bastard standing next to him when his pipe bomb comes unglued. That and the unsuspecting neophyte who comes into ownership of one of these destructive devices at some point down the road.

They do indeed walk among us.

[mckutzy]

..and since me and hick are a bit closer to him I have said somewhat similar in another of his posts.

[hickstick_10]

I think its pretty clear now that Camerl2009 is to young to own a firearm in Canada, and most likely doesn't have a PAL like he claims, its been pointed out by other members in other posts about his questionable activities and assumptions of what can be legally done with his supposed class of prohibited PAL license.

I'm not going to give him any more ideas, and I recommend other members do the same.

Let the kid play counterstrike instead of building guns.

[mckutzy]

... and dont for get silencers aswell. :roll: :roll::roll:

[camerl2009]

1 inch 4130 tubing with .188 walls is what bill holmes reccomends for 20 guage barrels

thats from a forum ive looked into it enough to know what im doing
measure the barrel before you proof it measure affter
and do it again for a 20ga its would be 130gr of ffg black powder wad's 2oz of shot

the tubing is tested a 90,000 psi it made for aircraft use its not **** you go buy at
a hardware store.

and no im not holding it when proofing tie it to a tire


this tubing is used for more then muzzleloaders
blackpowder mortars. and even some modern shotgun barrels

[camerl2009]

mod's lock this plz thanks

[mckutzy]

camerl2009- is this you by any chance ??????
http://www.youtube.com/user/camerl2009#p/u/0/081X7fXZqUU
This just gets more interesting as time goes.
As per his license, he probably does have a prohib. but it was for some firearms that were left to him from a grandfather or such?
but I question his experience at shooting them.....

[camerl2009]

camerl2009- is this you by any chance ??????
http://www.youtube.com/user/camerl2009#p/u/0/081X7fXZqUU
This just gets more interesting as time goes.
As per his license, he probably does have a prohib. but it was for some firearms that were left to him from a grandfather or such?
but I question his experience at shooting them.....

there was some left to me i shoot them alot
the full auto i cant but who cares

[hickstick_10]

camerl2009 I won't judge a man by what he reads, but I recommend you rethink your method of gathering information and how you absorb it.

Any person who knew better would drop the hydraulic pipe idea, stick with one project and follow it through to the end. Best bet, and I'l repeat it again, is to start with a flintlock kit. As you have finished parts that are safe to use and you can reference that gun as you build one of your own from scratch.

There are various books on building muzzle loading arms written by credible authors available as well as excellent kits which require no registration. To try to piece a gun together with bar stock, using only the internet as a reference is an exercise in futility. Buy yourself a couple books or go to the local library and read them, theres FAR MORE useful information in The Gunsmith of Greenville County, on building muzzle loaders then there ever will be in those do it yourself machine gun articles.

Just speaking as a machinist here, there is a FAR easier way to learn to build something...........anything...........then the route your going, unless you absorb information from all sources your going to be doing a lot of "cut and try", its been pretty unanimous throughout this forum that the tube idea should be layed to rest, along with some of your other ideas.

Best of luck all the same.

[waksupi]

Cam, I really do appreciate your enthusiasm, and I do hope eventually you will be able to offer some sort of muzzle loader for market. However, I really urge you to take some machining classes, and study engineering a bit. You will need to know the proper method of reaming, lathe and mill operation. With any luck you may have someone building firearms near you, that will give you some direction and instruction. Regardless of the type of firearm being built, they must be approached with the utmost caution, and follow all safety rules.