44/454

[Rrusse11]

Started foolin' around with some dies and cases last night. I've got a 24" ballard cut 44/40 barrel to go on my Gunbroker special M1894 in 44Mag,,,,,,, buuuut, after the heady ballistics I've been getting with the Casull cartridge in the 452Mag, I';m thinkin' and playin',,,,,,,,,,
~20% increased case capacity over the 44/40.
Could be interesting!
Cheers all,
R*2

[Four Fingers of Death]

Started foolin' around with some dies and cases last night. I've got a 24" ballard cut 44/40 barrel to go on my Gunbroker special M1894 in 44Mag,,,,,,, buuuut, after the heady ballistics I've been getting with the Casull cartridge in the 452Mag, I';m thinkin' and playin',,,,,,,,,,
~20% increased case capacity over the 44/40.
Could be interesting!
Cheers all,
R*2

Boy, that 44/454 looks good. I need another lever gun like I need a hole in the head. I can't get to shoot the ones I've got now (92s in 357 and 44Mag, 1866 in 44/40, 1894s in 30/30 and 375 Big Bore, 1895 in 45/70 and a Browning BPCR in 45/70. Can't seem to resist these levers.

[felix]

Would the super mag case be too big for most "pistol" lever guns? Seems that case size would be more than sufficient if it would work OK from the magazines. ... felix

[Rrusse11]

Boy, that 44/454 looks good. I need another lever gun like I need a hole in the head. I can't get to shoot the ones I've got now (92s in 357 and 44Mag, 1866 in 44/40, 1894s in 30/30 and 375 Big Bore, 1895 in 45/70 and a Browning BPCR in 45/70. Can't seem to resist these levers.

Mick,
I got leveritis purty bad,,,,, but one aspect of specialising in the Marlins is that I'm a learnin' how they work, and I'm accumulating a growing stock of bits and pieces for 'em. Their design and parts have altered very little over the last 120 years.
With the 452Mag variant now feeding the SAAMI Casull spec of 1.765COAL , it opens up quite a wide range of possibilities for the "pistol" cartridges. I know I find the 44Mag loaded up in a handgun quite a handfull, let alone the loads I'm now shooting in the 452Mag, and they are below max. In an M1894 however, no problem! At 2300fps with the 240gr load,, the rifle is speaking with considerable authority however, and for your neck of the woods, I reckin would be an ideal pig gun for them feral hogs.
I got to the 44/454 case by taper crimping a once fired case with a 45ACP die, which is just enuff reduction of the mouth to get it into a 44Mag carbide sizing die. Not quite sure how to measure the angle of the shoulder, but it looks good, {:o). Should get a 44cal boolit well over 2000#'s of ME without too much fuss, and an ez feed into the chamber to boot. I may be able to get my existing 454Casull reamer modified,,,,, or with the case as a sample, see what Dave Manson of www.mansonreamers.com can do for me. The 24" oct barrel I got in 44/40 should be a real ez ream job, and it's got a slightly faster twist of 1:36 than the usual Marlin 1:38.
Cheers,
R*2

[Dutch4122]

I've seen this idea of using the .445 case in a levergun discussed before on other forums. IIRC seems that the general concensus (sp?) was that the .445 case length would probably work in a Winchester '94, but not the Marlin 1894.

Some others argued that you would just end up with a duplicate of the .444 Marlin using more expensive brass anyway, so no real benefit.

[StarMetal]

Yeah but you would end up with a 444 marlin on a heck of a smaller and lighter rifle.

Joe

[Rrusse11]

Would the super mag case be too big for most lever guns? Seems that case size would be more than sufficient if it would work OK from the magazines. ... felix

Felix,
Too long at 1.610" for the Marlin 1894. I've thought about cutting it back to the Casull length of 1.381", but then the advantage is marginal. I'm really maxed out with my COAL tweaks to get 1.765". The shorter fatter case I believe is the way to get the most out of the action. It would certainly put a 44cal into a whole nother level of performance..
Still all within cast boolit velocities, and with slighly better BC's and sectional densities on the 44, give IMHO good 150yd capabilities. Not quite up to 444Marlin or 45/70 capabilities, but gettin' near enuff that I doubt the receiving end would know much difference.
Cheers,
R*2

[felix]

Looks good to me! We need to try your design as is. No need to worry about shoulder angle if the boolit will touch the chamber wall first. Make sure you calculate that with both a winnie and a marlin. Might get a woodworker around there with a lathe and make some wooded cartridges! I will submit some cash, if necessary, for the R&D. What really needs some more powder space is the 41 mag. ... felix

[Scrounger]

I have really enjoyed watching your developments in this rifle/cartridge. I have long been an advocate of improving the performance in the 1894. I see two problems with your new cartridge. One is that few people will take the time and trouble to tweak the COAL to the length you did. Did you consider just using the .45 Colt case necked down to .44? Second problem is the eternal problem with the Marlin .44- the twist. If you could pick up one of the barrels from a new model .444 (Ballard Rifling, 20 inch twist), cut off an inch or so and rechamber it, should be an improvement. I have no knowledge about the specs of the .480 Ruger case, but do you have any thoughts on necking it down to .44 or .45 for the 1894 rifle. If possible, it should give .454 Casull velocities at lower pressures???

[felix]

I'd think I'd stay with the magnumized cases, just in case! Also, I would think we'd need a little longer case than the standard pistol size case to take care of the waste generated by the neck taper. ... felix

[felix]

I think the velocity goal would be 2400 fps with some kind of normal boolit, and that would be the 240-250 grainers in the 44, right? For heavier boolits, then the 444 is more than sufficient. Am I off base here? ... felix

[StarMetal]

Why not go for the gusto and neck down the 500 S&W?

Joe

[Scrounger]

StarMetal brings up a good point. In looking up the numbers on the .480 Ruger, I can't see any reason why that round wouldn't work well in an 1894. And I also noted that the .50 A&E case might be a good candidate for necking down. Why? I don't know why, the .44 Magnum as is already gives my shoulder all it wants to handle. Mind games, I guess...

[StarMetal]

Art

That gusto word use comes from one of my good Tulsa friends. He said that alot "go for the gusto".

Joe

[StarMetal]

Hey I can see it now. Imagine if this caliber materializes. Your friend comes over and spots the rifle standing in the corner. He says "Hey, nice little pea shooter". You say "Want to shoot it?" He says "Yeah!" Then you watch as it breaks his shoulder and kicks his ass. Then you say "Pea shooter huh?"

Joe

[felix]

Gotta' watch out for that neck angle! The neck angle appears fine in the picture at top of thread, but it has to be tested throughly anyway. Making ramping mods to the gun as is, is a no-no. That is the most major cause for concern in a lever gun. Besides, we only need enough powder space to make something get to 2400 fps max. ... felix

[Scrounger]

I think the velocity goal would be 2400 fps with some kind of normal boolit, and that would be the 240-250 grainers in the 44, right? For heavier boolits, then the 444 is more than sufficient. Am I off base here? ... felix

Velocities at that level would already be trespassing on .444 property. I once chronied a 300 gr bullet at 2300 in my .444 but that was too heavy a load, 2100 would be more acceptable. But 250 at 2400 would probably give you a 300gr load at 2100 plus, so it has eliminated the need for the .444 in that case. Only gain I can think of would be higher magazine capacity, and the higher pressures would be rough on the gun as opposed to a more gently loaded .444. This has to fall in the category of things we do just to prove we can do these things... On another tack, the only things we do by making a given bullet go faster is improve trajectory (insignigant in this case) and increase killing range. If that bullet was considered a deer killer at 100 yards at 1700 FPS, increasing the velocity to 2300 FPS now makes it a deer killer at, what, 150 yards??? Nice, but now trajectory is making it more difficult to hit, so ??? As CarpetMan says, it's cheaper than drinking and chasing broads. And it's not illegal. YET.

[felix]

Good point, Scrounger. How has the Bains and Davis faired in a lever gun? Any info on that 357/44mag? ... felix

[StarMetal]

From what I read and remember of the 357/44 Bains and Davis, did they put a plastic collor on the neck of the case to in essence to make it a straight wall round so they wouldn't have a cylinder jam-up problems from shooting a bottlenecked cartridge in a revolver? I've never heard of anyone shooting it in a rifle.

Joe

[felix]

Maybe the 41 should be the emphasis of this design rather than the 44. Getting the 230-240 grainers up to 1800 would be great enough, and on up to 2100 would be fantastic, and on up to 2400 with a 210 would be ideal. However, it has to be a whale of a lot smaller than the 405. ... felix