Depth of seating.

[lreed]

Hello. I've been tinkering with paper patching a couple of 8mm mausers,trying to get all my stuff togeather. The info gleaned from you have been really helpful. The .314 push die,16 lb paper size to.325 makes for nice smooth patching. Here comes the questions,the only bullet that seems to chamber well is the 170gr Lee the base is at the bottom of the neck and the nose is pressing the rifleing. I have a 323471 and a 323481 that I would like to patch,the only way these bullets will chamber is to cut the patch back to the first groove,not happy with this,as lead is exposed,and I often get zingers that don't even print on target.
How are patched bullets such as 323471 loaded in 8mm Mauser without going down in the powder room or cutting back the patch? Anything on patching 311284 for a .30 cal? As always thanks for your shared knowledge!
lreed

[docone31]

I patch my castings pretty tall.
In my .30s, for example, my nose is .301, the bore is .30. The paper will be shredded by the rifleing.
I go above the top groove. I always have. My .303, I do the same thing. The nose is .305, the bore is .3035. Again, my paper is shredded.
I seat my castings so the rifleing just engages the exposed lead, then compensate to allow feeding from the magazine.
I also prime size the casting to .308, then wrap. My .303, I size to .314. My 30s, I so far, size .308, then wrap with tracing paper, then size, so far, .309. With the .30s, especially in my O3-A2, so far, so good. It took me a while to find the .314 for my Smelly. I tried most of the reccomended sizes, and it was like shooting without using the sights! Now, my Smelly prints better with paper than jacketed sized .312.
I do not know if that helps with the 8mm, but, I think the ratio might be a guide.
I do like to feed paper through the magazine. I usually single shot, but once in a while I like to load up.
It takes some time to wrap and size, so I do not rapid fire without targeting. I have not had keyholes however.

[lreed]

Come on guys, work with me on this thing. I really need to know how you patch and seat the longer bullets in the 8mm mauser. I patch Lee's 170 gr 8mm over the ogive and it chambers,bullet base at the bottom of the neck, no torn patch, works very well, not so with the 323481 or 323471. If these bullets are loaded out,instead of down past the neck, then for sure they can't wrapped over the ogive, if you do successfuly load and shoot the longer patched bullets, please share your methods.
Thanks lreed

[eka]

One thing is for sure, the paper has to be over the ogive and the boolit seated out into the lands. Now, have you tried the load with the boolit down below the neck? It may shoot just fine like that. Some loads I have are well below the neck and they do great.

Keith

[RMulhern]

I seat these WAY OUT!

[rhead]

My Turk likes the 235 grain 8mm max from Lee through Mid South. I wrap it with two turns of Meade tracing paper far enough up the oglive that the leading dge of the papered bullet will be less than bore size then size it it .326 and seat it to feed from the mag. The base of the bullet is probably around 3/8 inch below the neck. It shoots fine for hunting 1.75 in at 100 yards ( about the size aiming point my old eyes can see at that distance. Not match grade but not too bad for an eighty dollar rifle. I have heard about not letting the base go below the neck but I forgot to tell my rifle. Why were you wanting to keep the paper back to the first groove?

[docone31]

Before my Lee Collet dies were modified to take my .314 paper patches, my depth of seating was all over the wall! Deep, shallow, inbetween.
With the .314 sizing, they also gave me impressive groups for that old rifle. Much better than factory loads in the same rifle.
I had some that were way below the shoulder, some right where I wanted them. I did not notice any difference.
By the way, those are some fine looking patches! I like.
Clean, consistant, look well done.
I love the looks.

[leftiye]

Sounds to me like there isn't a way to do what you want - the particular boolits that you mention won't chamber when seated out the way you want to do. So, you can use a different boolit, rechamber your gun with a longer freebore, or seat them with the bases below the neck. Sorry to not be more help, but I don't see much alternative.

Fwiw, there may be no problem with seating them below the shoulder of the cases, There probley isn't enough lube (even if you lube the patches and size them) to pollute your powder. It remains to be seen by shooting how concentricity and boolit start are affected by this seating though.

[bcp477]

All I shoot (and patch for) is the 8mm Mauser. I like others, patch my bullets up to the lower portion of the ogive. I seat to only one bullet diameter, though with the (relatively short) 170 grain bullets I use, they still do not touch the lands. I have tried the longer, heavier bullets, but was never able to solve the chambering issue....as well as the fact that those bullets did not shoot well in my rifle anyway. So, I dropped them and went back to the 170's. Sorry, then, I cannot offer any help on this issue, other than to say that it is POSSIBLE, based on my (very) limited experience, that you will never get those bullets to work well. I hope that I am wrong about that.

[montana_charlie]

How are patched bullets such as 323471 loaded in 8mm Mauser without going down in the powder room or cutting back the patch? Anything on patching 311284 for a .30 cal?

It appears to me that you need to have a mould made that meets your requirements. If you decide to do that, you may as well make it a bullet with smooth sides...designed from the start to be paper patched.

If you insist on using an established design that is intended for another purpose, you will always have to make compromises that may prevent you from achieving the results you seek.
CM

[RMulhern]

MC

Another way of saying it is...."If you're gonna shoot SP.....just stay with regular HP bullets and FORGET PAPER PATCHING!!"

[45 2.1]

It appears to me that you need to have a mould made that meets your requirements. If you decide to do that, you may as well make it a bullet with smooth sides...designed from the start to be paper patched.

If you insist on using an established design that is intended for another purpose, you will always have to make compromises that may prevent you from achieving the results you seek.
CM

The mechanics of shooting patched with smokeless were laid out in contemporary writings by Col. harrison, Ross Seyfried and Lyman some time ago (smooth-sided boolits have problems unless they are deformed some prior to patching). Before suggesting what the blackpowder crowd does, perhaps some reading would be in order so the advise given is in line with what works. There is absolutely nothing wrong with sizing down grease groove boolits to patch back up to proper size.

[pdawg_shooter]

I have had 3 smooth side bullet moulds and none worked as good as a grooved bullet sized to the correct diameter. As for seating below the neck, why not? I do on all most all my 300RUM loads and it causes no problems. The loss of powder space is way overrated. If you loose 10% it will affect velocity only 2.5%. Seat where you need to and go shoot!

[docone31]

I second Pdawg.
I paper patch for my .30s and my .303 British. None of the molds are smoothsided.
I wasted 30 shots with both calibers untill I got dialed in. The .303 took the most experimenting.
When my patches dry, they shrink and the lube lands are visible as bumps.
I seat them to OAL specs. Some are in the case, below the shoulder. Great results.
I have seated some way out.
In all honesty, with my two calibers, I do not notice any difference with accuracy out of either depth of seating types.
It could be I am using smokeless powder rather than black powder.
If I were to wrap smoothsided castings, I would do as Ross Seyfried reccomended, roll them on a file to rough them up for the paper.
A fellow forum member sent me some beautiful, smooth sided castings. I can get them to shoot, they are the same grain weight as my lube castings, but, they do not shoot as well as my improvised paper patch castings.
I believe, it is my bore diameter that is important. That remains a constant. The sizing is critical for me, but, I can change that with dies.
To sum up, I just load them like jacketeds, and they hit what I aim at.

[montana_charlie]

If you decide to do that, you may as well make it a bullet with smooth sides...designed from the start to be paper patched.

MC

Another way of saying it is...."If you're gonna shoot SP.....just stay with regular HP bullets and FORGET PAPER PATCHING!!"

I did not intend to convey that opinion.

Grease grooves detract from a bullet's aerodynamic performance, and paper patching precludes the need for grease. So, it makes sense to me (regardless of the propellant chosen) to use a bullet with smooth sides.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with sizing down grease groove boolits to patch back up to proper size.

I considered that possibility before posting my first reply. I discarded the idea because it serves no purpose.
The author of the thread has a patched-to diameter that he likes, but the bullet's nose is too large to take the paper as far forward as he feels he should. Running the bullet through a sizing die would not fix this problem...unless he sized the nose only.

If existing grease grooved designs are too fat in the nose to seat the bullet into the throat as deeply as desired, a mould cut to 'good' dimensions would cure that problem.

THAT is what I tried to suggest...

Once a person agrees with that conclusion, he can easily choose to eliminate the drag-inducing grease grooves. If he is unable to keep a patch on a smooth-sided bullet, perhaps it's time for him to seek advice from 'the blackpowder crowd'.

A fellow forum member sent me some beautiful, smooth sided castings. I can get them to shoot, they are the same grain weight as my lube castings, but, they do not shoot as well as my improvised paper patch castings.

A 'good shootin' bullet' is one that fits well, and is properly stabilized by the rifling.
If your smooth-sided bullets are the 'same weight' as your grooved ones, they can't be the 'same shape'.
If they were smooth-sided mirrors of your grease grooved, they would be heavier because the 'grooves' are full of lead.

They are slimmer or shorter...or have a different nose profile. Something allows them to come out as light as your greasers.

Since they do not constitute 'the same bullet', it's reasonable to find they don't have the 'same performance'.

Everything in this reply is simple logic, boys. It requires a little knowledge, but not much understanding. If you need to go deeper, there are those who possess that information...if you can get them to share...

CM

[RMulhern]

MC

Nope....that was my impression!

Now....answer me this! Here's a scenario to think about! I've shot smooth-sided bullets most of my life....competition and hunting and of course shooting smokeless powder and have always gotten great performance. Therefore I'm sitting here thinking.....why would I consider shooting PP bullets through a modern rifle using smokeless powder other than possibly to give me something to do....to occupy my time! Now...I've shot thousands upon thousands of CAST BULLETS with a gas check many years ago.....through 03A3 Springfields because it was basically for plinking and as a kid....I didn't have the $$$$$ to buy so-called 'smooth-sided' bullets available today. It wasn't because I didn't know about PP bullets; rather it was because I never considered it because in my opinion it's pure folly! Every maker of bullets in this country makes 'smooth-sided' bullets from Sierra on down so I just don't see the practical use of using PP in modern rifles with smokeless powder....other than the fact that some might consider it a challenge!

But hey.....whatever blows folks skirts up is fine with me! Have at it!!

[docone31]

I do it for independance.
I read about paper patching, and kinda forgot about it. Later, I wondered if I could always get store boughten jacketeds.
Maybe I can, who knows.
I like casting, sizing, paper patching, and actually hitting something. My Palma in 7.62 absolutely loves my loads. If I ever compete, if I can, it will be with paper. I get better results with them.
I also have lots of zinc contaminated lead. Paper saves the day with them. Smokey cases from the lighter weight, but I can clover leaf with them.
Playing with them like I do also keeps me from being under the wife's feet. I am casting silver today, after sprueing, investing, I have two hours at 360* to dewax, steam out the mold, and prepare for 1350* for 2hrs to bring down to casting temp. That is a lot of sitting around and being available to be spoken to.
Paper patching is a good way to have silence. Shoots well also.

[lreed]

Hello: Wow, and I had almost forgotten this thread. Some of my questions were addressed on the thread S. W. Kansas started by Pdawg shooter. Thanks to him and Docone I have started making some changes, cutting new sizing dies, changing to harder alloy and a slower powder.
The seating of a pp bullet below the neck is a surprise, but I will sure give it a try. There are some who say that a bullet must be patched past the ogive to give success,however this might not be an absolute,because so far I have patched both 311284 and 323471 to the forward g-grove with success, as far as shooting clean,no leading and round groups. No brass ring yet,I want what Pdawg shooter and Docone get,j-bullet velocity with accuracy, tall order I know.
I know success might come easier with molds specially made for this kind of endeavor, but I must work with what I have,a slew of g-v molds that were acquired back when no body wanted them,an old Atlas lathe and limited financial resources. Everything I do seems to be a "work-in-progress". If I ever hit pay-dirt I will surely report.
lreed

[45 2.1]

MC-
Its really not worth argueing about, but you really need to try out your suggestions for yourself to see if they're up to snuff. A lot of other people have tried what you suggested and have written the results up. They don't agree with you.

[bcp477]

Ah, now we have an issue into which I can "sink my teeth". Why paper-patch with smokeless powder in this day and age, you ask ? VERY simple. As I am not interested in BP rifles, issues regarding them are moot to me. So, smokeless (so-called "modern" rifles it is, just because I happen to like them). As for paper-patching.....because I can then avoid being RAPED by all of the bullet manufacturers. I tried cast bullets (in my SP-powered, 8mm Mauser) as an alternative to jacketed bullets....and their now outrageous prices. I then tried paper-patching, again, with SP, as an alternative to paying upwards of $30/1000 for simple gas-checks (perhaps a small expense, really, but one that stuck in my craw). As I've found success with PPing, I've not looked back - and don't intend to. I doubt that, now that the bullet manufacturers have gotten prices to the level they are now, that they will ever lower them again.
Besides, PPing simply adds to my knowledge base of handloading for my rifle.....it is interesting to me....and it is a somewhat unique skill for SP shooters (since few do it).

I should mention that I do NOT cast my own bullets - and have no intention to do so, for my own personal reasons (partial physical disability, to be exact). So, sources of good, suitable bullets for my rifle are important to me, rather than just sources of metals suitable for bullet casting, as is the case for most people here.

As to the debate regarding smooth-sided bullets vs. grooved ones, I couldn't care less. I have found a good source of bullets which work for ME (which happen to be grooved) ....and that's good enough for now. In future, should I ever have occasion to take up casting or swaging my own bullets, whether by choice or necessity, that would be a different matter.

In closing, I should like to say that I don't think it very kind of anyone to take a dismissive attitude about whatever part of this that doesn't appeal to them - if one is a BP shooter (whether PP or non-PP)....that is certainly fine.....nothing whatever wrong with that. If, on the other hand, one is an SP shooter (again, by whatever means)....that is equally fine. We can all co-exist without trying to turn things into some kind of childish rivalry. I, for one, have no less respect for the BP shooter than I do the SP shooter.....and I can't understand why anyone would make such a distinction. In my opinion, if anyone here can't seem to deal with this "diversity" among us, then he or she should take the proverbial "long walk off a short pier".