Heavy bullets in the 625 S&W .45 ACP

[Dale53]

I finally got around to making up some dummy cartridges to see if they would chamber in my two 625's (one is a 5" 1989 Model 625-6 and the other is a JM Special 4" barrel 625-8).

Some have reported problems chambering heavy bullets in their 625's. I loaded up six dummies with the Lyman 452664 (250 grs with my alloy) roll crimped in the crimping groove. They chambered just fine. However, they were sized at .452" and .451" might have been a slightly better fit for the cylinder throats (could feel just a bit of resistance when I loaded each chamber). This bullet design has a "full diameter nose" that extends slightly past the case mouth and is bullet size (in my case, .452"). This is a picture of the bullet for those who haven't seen it (also labeled Lyman's Cowboy Bullet for .45's):




I have found this particular bullet gives excellent results in my Ruger Bisley Vaquero with both black and smokeless powder (with suitable BP Lube). I have shot scores as high as 92x100 at fifty yards slowfire with black powder in competition. I have cracked a 100x100 at the 25 yard distance on the timed fire target. So, I believe it to be an excellent choice for a heavy bullet (for the caliber) in a .45 ACP revolver.

Frankly, I personally have little need for a heavy bullet in my 625's. However, I have academic interest in the possibilities. Others have safely loaded to 1000 fps with similar bullets out of similar revolvers. That should take care of most any woods deer hunting situation. I have .44 magnums and .454's for "heavy work" but frankly most of my deer hunting days are behind me (getting too dern old to drag a deer out of the woods and too prideful to have someone else do it for me). However, I KNOW this would do the job if needed.

I will be reporting on use of the Lyman 452664 bullet in my 625's later on. I plan to have chronograph data with the report.

Incidentally, the September 2008 issue of Gun Tests Magazine, has an interesting article on three .45 ACP revolvers. I pretty much agree with their choices but it is pretty amateurish in several areas. They report on the S&W 625 (Model of 1989), the Night Guard 325, and the Taurus Tracker.

I have been working with my two 625's this year and also working with my Taurus Tracker in .45 ACP. The Tracker is an interesting revolver. Mine has a 4" ported barrel, has a good trigger and handles quite well. It has some idiosyncrasies - it works perfectly, every time with .45 ACP cartridges used without the furnished full moon (five shot) clips. Of course, you have to pick the cases out of the chambers with your finger nails. The clips appear to be made of spring steel and are VERY thin. It would be easy to cut your fingers on them. They are less than positive in holding the loaded rounds in position. The Tracker is different from the traditional Colt and Smith and Wesson .45 ACP revolvers - it does NOT have sufficient head space to allow the use of .45 Auto Rim cases (Gun Test incorrectly thought that was because the cases were expanded too much to use. Not so, there just isn't enough room for the thicker rims of the Auto Rim cases). That is a major faux pas on the part of the authors.

I discovered that the Tracker's head space was EXACTLY correct for the rim thickness of .45 Colt cases (but of course the chambers are too short for this case). The .45 Cowboy Special case is PERFECT for the Tracker. They have the same capacity as the .45 ACP and Auto Rim but the case head of the .45 Colt. So, they take the place of the Auto Rim cases that I use in my 625's and end up serving the same purpose.

My Tracker (can't speak for all of them) will not allow a loaded round to fully chamber if ANY of the bullet shoulder extends past the case mouth. This is just a minor annoyance to me as I just load the .45 Cowboy Specials up just for the Tracker. The Tracker makes a fine trail gun and packs easily. My Tracker is a VERY accurate piece with cast bullets (boolits to you all).

My 625's, as I have reported here ad nauseum, are just flat wonderful revolvers. Accurate, easily handled with adequate power for most any reasonable use. They are as good a target revolver as money can buy. The .45 ACP or Auto Rim case is an extremely fine platform for target loads up to and including decent hunting loads (not a magnum but adequate power for many purposes, nonetheless).

Dale53

[chunkum]

Thanks for the great post, Dale 53. Something I've done in an old S&W 1917 that has shown reluctant chambering of some 270 gr Ohaus #45255K (neither .452 nor 255 grs with WWs) when they are crimped in the crimp groove, is to lube and size the bullets first and then turn them upside down (Using a Lyman 450 here) and carefully size the front driving band a thousandth or so smaller depending on what is necessary for easy chambering. That way I can use the extra powder space left when the bullet is seated and crimped in the designated crimp groove. In other instances where the shallower seating depth is less of a priority, I don't bother but I really like this bullet in the AR and it should do just as well in the Cowboy Special brass.


Best Regards
chunkum

[Dale53]

That is an interesting bullet, Chunkum. It appears to leave about as much powder room as possible for a bullet of that weight.

Dale53

[Dutch4122]

Yeah, and I think it's a shame we couldn't get the Group Buy off the ground for that Ohas Heavy .45 Auto Rim boolit!

[Bass Ackward]

Trouble seating heavy bullets? Could well be?

My throats measured .4515 when I got both guns with the bore .4505. Then my bore cleaned up to .4515. So .... I had my throats reamed to .4525 to stay ahead of it. The bores have since stabilized at .452.

I shoot a 250 trunicated cone of my own design, which is a Cavalry design knockoff and a 260 LBT LFN that was made for automatics (no crimp groove). Both have WIDE front drive bands and the OAL for the LBT is 1.375 with over .200 of bore diameter band outside the case. I have no problems chambering either and I just pass a brush every hundred rounds or so as a precaution.

[Cayoot]

Yeah, and I think it's a shame we couldn't get the Group Buy off the ground for that Ohas Heavy .45 Auto Rim boolit!

I agree, I would really like to pick one up!

[45 2.1]

Either of these work well in the 45 AR. The top one is a PB copy of the Lyman 452490 at 230 gr. and the bottom one is a modified 270 gr. Ohaus boolit.

[Dutch4122]

Either of these work well in the 45 AR.................................. and the bottom one is a modified 270 gr. Ohaus boolit.

Well, well! I decide to check the board before heading out for work and what do I find. Looks like you've set the hook on me again, Bob!

[45 2.1]

Well, well! I decide to check the board before heading out for work and what do I find. Looks like you've set the hook on me again, Bob!

It looks like i'm in trouble now.........hee hee. You've already shot the top one in hollow point form. The bottom one, in the original Ohaus form was a present from Lloyd (Thanks Much Lloyd).

[Dutch4122]

After some discussion with several interested parties it looks like we'll have enough interest in the 45 2.1 Modified Ohaus 270 grn Keith type design for the .45 Auto Rim revolvers to get at least 10 molds ordered

I'll be starting a Group Buy on this design at the end of the month for those that will be interested so keep an eye out on the Group Buy section!

[Paul5388]

Dutch,

Who are you going to get to make it?

The original Ohaus bullet is a very nice shooting bullet and works well in M625s without modifying anything for them to chamber.

They look like this when loaded.

[Hardcast]

Are there any custom casters selling that 270 Gr Ohaus boolit?

[Paul5388]

I only know of two people who have the mould, so I think it would be highly unlikely for a commercial caster to produce it.

[Dutch4122]

Dutch,
Who are you going to get to make it?

The Group Buy order will be sent in to Lee to be cut in their six cavity mold blocks.

The rounded lube groove has been modified to a more squared off dimension; and I believe the nose and crimp groove have been left alone. 45 2.1 can describe all the changes better than I as he is the designer.

[Heavy lead]

I am absolutely in this one. Not into waiting 9 months or whatever, but for this one I will. IMO the more square grease groove would be welcome. I'll keep an eye out for it.

[Hardcast]

I only know of two people who have the mould, so I think it would be highly unlikely for a commercial caster to produce it.

I had to ask......._

[Paul5388]

Chunkum has two moulds, the original Ohaus and a later copy by NEI. GLL has one of the NEI copies. Chunkum has been generous enough to send me "care" packages containing the Ohaus bullet. All I have to do is send him a copperhead once in a while.

Here's a picture of the bullets from the two moulds.



About the only difference I can detect is the NEI has a little more rounded grease groove.

I have never sized the Ohaus, but the NEI tends to smear lead down into the grease groove when I take it down to .452" in a Lyman 4500. It may be something I'm doing wrong (like using a 50/50 mix of clip-on to stick-on WWs), but it does reduce the groove's capacity. I think squaring the grease groove is a good move.

BTW, did I mention I'm interested in one of the moulds?

I'm taking terrible pictures tonight, but here's the Ohaus compared to the RCBS .45-255-K

[Dale53]

Incidentally, I met up with two friends at our local club and checked out their 625-8's (JM Specials) with the Lyman 452664 dummy loads. They were just a "leetle bit" tight (.452"). They actually go in fully but you can "feel" the last little bit as they fully enter the cylinder. I think they'll do just fine at .452" but some will prefer .451" for that additional bit of ease of loading. I found it quite interesting that these three revolver's throats measure as close t0 one another as is physically possible for me to measure (certainly within 1/2 of 1 Thousandth). That speaks VERY well for Smith. AND, I am talking all six cylinders of all three revolvers. Good work, SMITH & WESSON!

In the next few days maybe I can get some chronograph data for the group.

NOTE: I have no intention of "magnumizing" my 625, but rather allow it to reach it's safe potential for a "deer gun" for woods ranges. I have a number of magnums (.44 Magnums and .454 Casulls) if I have need for a true magnum revolver. There is absolutely NO reason to extend beyond safety with these but I do have an interest in reaching a certain level (900-1000 fps with a 250 gr bullet). I believe it is well within reach (others here have done it and the June-July Handloader Magazine has a nice article on the .45 Auto Rim).

Dale53

[Paul5388]

About two years ago, I clocked the Ohaus bullet out of a M625-4 loaded with 13.0 gr of 2004 vintage 2400, Win LP primer and having an OAL of 1.361" in mixed brass. 921 fps was the average instrumental velocity with 960 fps MV and 553 ft lbs of ME.

If you compare the seating depth of this bullet, you'll notice it takes much less case capacity than the .45-255-K RCBS of the same weight. Some bullets, like the Oregon Trails 255 gr SWC, seat to an OAL of only 1.23" and the 240 gr Lee tumble lube was only 1.27" both seated to the crimping groove. The OT bullet produced 1045 fps MV with the same 13.0 gr load, but it only has 19 ft lbs more ME than the Ohaus.

[Bass Ackward]

They were just a "leetle bit" tight (.452"). They actually go in fully but you can "feel" the last little bit as they fully enter the cylinder. I think they'll do just fine at .452" but some will prefer .451" for that additional bit of ease of loading. Dale53

That's exactly why I opened up to .4525. Doing so also shortens that ramp at the end of the chamber so that my bands actually enter the throat at the larger diameter. This does not improve accuracy of the gun. But it does improve the accuracy of the gun with softer lead (20-1) and improves the flexibility of the gun with bullet design. (semi's)

Smith cut these guns with very tight throats, but the chambers were left pretty much the same diameter as the olden days. I can deep seat a bullet and chamber a .456 bullet with no problems using Starline brass. Remington brass drags with .456. I assume this dimensional issue was for the speed factor as you have to consider the shooting segment that these guns compete in. And that drives the train.

For some reason, they also cut the chambers a little deeper. And remember, the 90 degree edge is supposedly to allow headspave with ACP cases. Supposedly this was a big internal argument at Smith and this is the direction they went. Don't ask me why? So your bullet can and will catch the 90 degree edge of the end of the chamber if it isn't wide enough to reach across this expanse to the ramp or into the throat.

This plays hell with narrow band semis as they will catch and hang up momentarily. Or if you are shooting PB bullets and fast powders where the bullets are soft enough that the base obturates out with the case to fill this space. The base band is scraped away forcing better accuracy with harder bullets. But it only happens until the chambers lead up and turn the 90 degree angle into a ramp itself. This is why HS7 is working so well for me when it should border on being too slow.

This is exactly why Elmer complained that Lyman ruined his design when they cut down the front band on his bullet design. They did it so it would chamber in all guns. And of coarse, Elmer was shooting soft by today's standards. Clearly, my guns are much more consistent with wider band slugs of all designs or with olgivals if they aren't. But I had to open the throats to be able to use this technique at .452 diameter.