Can IMR4227 be used for 223?

[coleman]

I found a 8# metal can of IMR 4227 that i bought in the early 90's and it was even older then that it is still unopened so it should still be good. I found info for 22 hornet and other small calibers but nothing for 223 from what search i found was its a fast burning powder. Can i use this for 223 in my ar-15, bullet weights from 50-62 grains what i reload and i do have a Chrono. Any help? or should i just sell it to someone that reloads smaller calibers?
Thanks Coleman

[JeffinNZ]

I shoot 13gr under a 55gr cast boolit for 2300fps.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Coleman,

Not to be smart here, but what do your reloading manuals say.

If your reloading I would assume that you have a number of them, maybe dating back to older issues.

I have just went through 6 reloading manuals (Hornady, Speer & Nosler), 2 being recent and the oldest going back to the Speer #10 and the Hornady 3rd addition and none of those books list IMR 4227 for the .223.

Although possibly usable in the .223, it is clearly not considered an optimum choice by these companies.

The powders available to the handloader today is huge, the burn rate chart in the recent Hornady book totaling, 146 in number.

Scanning the burn rate chart, it appears that the IMR4227 is considered to be on the fast side of burn rate as compaired to the many powders listed in the load data portions of the loading manuals.

However, Jeff has indicated that he has found a use for the powder, although my data shows it to be a very sedate velocity when compaired to "normal" .223 velocities.

Unless you desire to have your .223 shooting at velocities barely in the .22 Hornet range - nothing wrong with that if it rings your bell -, check around, maybe you could find someone with a .357 or .44 that would make you a trade for something a bit more suitable in the .223.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[uscra112]

I shoot 13gr under a 55gr cast boolit for 2300fps.

Agreed, it's a good reduced-load powder for .223 and a lot of other cartridges. Problem is there's little or no published data to work from. There's where the Quickload software does wonders, especially in these days of powder famine. In a single shot or a bolt gun you can work up a load in the model and then try it in the gun.

The fact that 4227 is a fast-for-caliber burner makes it problematic for gas-driven semi-autos, though. Tuning the load to get the right gas pressure at the port would have to take precedence over tuning for accuracy or velocity. It can be done in the model, but it's not simple, and without the model I wouldn't try it at all. So I'm also thinking that trading it off is a better solution.

Jeff, have you actually Chrony'd that load? If it's a 24 inch barrel, that's exactly what QL says it should be. (Always like to get confirmations of the model. . .)

Reduced .223 loads do ring my bell - I've got one using a 50 grain HP and 7.5 grains of Red Dot that gives 2100 fps and is hardly any noisier than a high velocity .22 rimfire. Instant termination on close-in chucks, (i.e garden defense here on the farm), and it shoots to the same sight setting as my full-power 55 grain coyote load, so long as the range is under 80 yards or so.

[RickinTN]

Last year I needed a reduced velocity-reduced noise load for my .223. IMR published data for 4227 in 223 in the past. I did find data for it in 222 and worked from there. It will not produce top velocities in the 223. I loaded 14grs. with the Sierra 55gr "blitz" bullet. My accuracy results were amazing. Groups at 100yds were less than 1/2". I have not chronographed these loads but guess them to be in the 2200 to 2300fps range. The 14gr charge is not a maximum charge. I don't know if it will cycle an AR or not and the only way I know to find out is to try it. Many times I've found data for powders not usually used in rifles listed in the handgun or contender section of various manuals. The faster than usual powders really shine in the shorter barrels where muzzle blast needs to be kept to a minimum. In my limited experience using the faster than normal powders in a rifle have resulted in very accurate loads with less than normal noise. My rifle is a 22" barreled model 700 Remington.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do,
Rick

[uscra112]

Yup, the fast powder in a long barrel, with small case and heavy bullet, loaded to subsonic muzzle velocity, is the whole principle behind the "Whisper" series. Peak pressure is reached very early, and then decays so that muzzle pressure (and ejected gas volume) are both low. The thing to be careful of is that, even though muzzle velocities aren't high, peak pressures are. And then there's the double-charge risk, which is why Red Dot is good - it's bulky. That 7.5 grain load I posted earlier is 60% of case capacity, so an accidental double charge will overflow and be obvious. Who needs Trail Boss when we have Red Dot?

[possom813]

Only IMR 4227 loads I found were on 55gr cast boolits in Lyman's 49th

11.0grs start wt, 14.0 max, with 225415 mold, 11.0 at 18k cup, 14.0 at 23,200 cup

10.0grs start wt, 13.0 max, with 225646, 10.0 at 17k cup, 13.0 at 26,200 cup

[coleman]

Thanks for the info guys, I found one load on the internet saying that they used 4227 for 223, but dont believe everything on the net? That is why i ask the more experienced reloaders on this forum! Bad thing i dont have a 300 blackout i want one but not paying the high prices right now. It looks like i am going to sell the powder.
Again thanks Coleman

[runfiverun]

it works pretty dang good in the 0-6 and I use it in my 22-250 with cast loads.

[perotter]

Just this morning I was wondering what I was ever going to do with that Red Dot that I have. When I left the range this afternoon I was wondering if I should just shoot .22 or load up some light .223 loads.

Guess both got answered in this thread.

[sthwestvictoria]

this is a link to IMR tables for 4427 for jacketed:
http://www.imrpowder.com/pdf/IMR_refcharts.pdf
I have used Hodgdons 4227 (AR2205) in 30-30 but not in .223

sorry this is the rifle data for jacketed:
http://www.imrpowder.com/pdf/IMR_rifle.pdf

however you will notice that it gives the highest pressures of the powder options, without the highest velocities.

there is a reason they are talking about 4227 on Co pperlakes'schanneling PO Ackley thread,
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-project/page5

this is the third thread this week on using 2205 - there is a .308 and 7.62x39 thread. is it the only powder left on the shelves over there?

[jdgabbard]

Coleman,

Not to be smart here, but what do your reloading manuals say.

If your reloading I would assume that you have a number of them, maybe dating back to older issues.

I have just went through 6 reloading manuals (Hornady, Speer & Nosler), 2 being recent and the oldest going back to the Speer #10 and the Hornady 3rd addition and none of those books list IMR 4227 for the .223.

Although possibly usable in the .223, it is clearly not considered an optimum choice by these companies.

The powders available to the handloader today is huge, the burn rate chart in the recent Hornady book totaling, 146 in number.

Scanning the burn rate chart, it appears that the IMR4227 is considered to be on the fast side of burn rate as compaired to the many powders listed in the load data portions of the loading manuals.

However, Jeff has indicated that he has found a use for the powder, although my data shows it to be a very sedate velocity when compaired to "normal" .223 velocities.

Unless you desire to have your .223 shooting at velocities barely in the .22 Hornet range - nothing wrong with that if it rings your bell -, check around, maybe you could find someone with a .357 or .44 that would make you a trade for something a bit more suitable in the .223.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

A multitude of people have been using Unique in the LARGER calibers for quite some time. And it's established that Unique burns quite a bit faster than 4227.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

That would be true, jdgabbard, but there was nothing said in the O.P.'s opening post about "reduced loads" which is what you would have with the use of Unique.

Now, nothing wrong with reduced loads, I make them myself for 30/06, 270 etc. for the use of new or young shooters. I just happen to be using RedDot.

However, as stated in my post, there is little to nothing - nothing found in my search - listed on the use of 4227 for what would be considered standard or normal .223 loading.

If however, a if person goes to the Lyman cast bullet book, a good source for reduced load information, you will find both Unique and IMR4227 listed among the ten powders which Lyman found usable for this level of loading.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[TheCelt]

That 7.5 grain load I posted earlier is 60% of case capacity, so an accidental double charge will overflow and be obvious. Who needs Trail Boss when we have Red Dot?

Are you using any filler with this load???? Sounds like an interesting combination!!!

[BAGTIC]

According to QL IMR4227 should be suitable for .223 with 24" velocities in the range of 3150 fps (55 gr) to 3200 fps (3200 fps). Those should be usable ballistics as they represent what I have been using for 50+ years in a .222. They may not be the best velocities attainable but they are certainly good enough.

[uscra112]

Are you using any filler with this load???? Sounds like an interesting combination!!!

Noooooo - no filler. Don't even think about it.

[destrux]

Not sure if you load for 7.62x39 at all, but I use it in that and it works well and cycles my SKS.

[fcvan]

I use 14 grains of 4227 with a Lyman 225-415 in my Ruger Mini 14 and my brothers AR 15 rifle. The Lyman 49 lists 2200 fps at about 25,000 CUP. This load groups well and cycles the rifles just fine. 4227 is becoming a staple in my reloading cupboard.

[Ford SD]

I found a 8# metal can of IMR 4227 that i bought in the early 90's and it was even older then that it is still unopened so it should still be good. I found info for 22 hornet and other small calibers but nothing for 223 from what search i found was its a fast burning powder. Can i use this for 223 in my ar-15, bullet weights from 50-62 grains what i reload and i do have a Chrono. Any help? or should i just sell it to someone that reloads smaller calibers?
Thanks Coleman

If you are looking for IMR Jacketed info it's here

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre.../IMR_rifle.pdf
or
http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/OM/Lyman44.pdf

Note of this is the old IMR Powder Data the New stuff is different

Lyman Cast # 4 also has some newer info

[QuickRick]

coleman; I have a similar situation in that I had a few pounds of H4227 (generally considered a tad slower burning that the IMR version) that I wasn't using and had just purchased my first AR15. I knew I had seen some published info on loading 4227 in 223 and after going through a stack of manuals and old "freebie" handouts I finally found it...It was a 70's vintage Dupont IMR powder guide which listed 17.0 grns of IMR 4227 with 55 grn jacketed bullets as a Max load...As usual the handout advised starting 10% lower and working up....In my case I had to get up to 16.5 grns before obtaining 100% functioning in my new Smith Sport II...From my 16 inch barreled rifle this load produces around 2,550 fps with a standard deviation under 20 fps which is considered very good consistency. I have been shooting 55 speer soft points or 52 speer HPs. Both will print under 1/2 inch groups at 25 yards with open sights and a solid rest...Of importance to me this load produces only moderate pressure compared to full power or factory loads. I do not consider H4227 one of the 10 or even 15 best powders for reloading the 223 Remington...IMHO this is why it is not listed in typical reloading manuals...It will work OK however and powder is getting to be a mighty pricey commodity...16.5 grns loads a lot more rounds than my favorite full power load (52-55 grn bullets) of 27.0 grns of W748....Good luck with your powder find....