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Thread: Grieving how long is too long

  1. #1
    Boolit Master RU shooter's Avatar
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    Grieving how long is too long

    I'm asking for help prayers and advice as I value all of your thoughts and opinions . First off the back story , feb 04 ,2013 a close friend an co worker was killed at work I was one of the first on scene and did all I could revive Ricky but knew there was no hope but tried till medics got there . As I said he was a close friend and talked a lot especially at that time when my marriage was ending as he had been down that road in a similar way . For a few months I went to see a grief counselor as I was a wreck . In my younger years I worked as a patrolman and also worked in the local ambulance company . I'd seen death before and bodies that were damaged beyond recognition . I got over those no issues but I just can't get over this even after 4 and a half years . As I write this all is coming back vivid as that day tears rolling down my face , I hear certain songs and it triggers it with the same emotion instantly , just can't let it go or get over it . I've seen my couch doctor off and on and feel ok for a few weeks but it's still all there . I still work in the same shop and I don't have issues when I'm working but I avoid going to the spot where it happened . Yeah I really miss him . Yeah I know it was an accident and I had no fault in it or couldn't have stopped it . I just feel like I should be done with the grieving process by now . But I know I'm not . As stated I've talked with professionals and family and friend about it but still feel like it's been too long .i cant get the good memories of Ricky to replace the bad ones ... Any advice from anyone that's been through a similar situation .

    Thanks for listening , Tim
    Last edited by RU shooter; 08-01-2017 at 11:14 AM.
    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    His life didn't stop when he moved out of the human vehicle...he is in another plane now. If he knew Jesus as his savior, then all is well...if he didn't it's too late to pray for him now.
    Our conscious is a complex thing...what some can walk away from puts others on their knees.
    The longer I live on this rock where Satan is the 'Prince of the Power of the Air'...the little 'g' god with so much influence over life right here...well, sometimes I get to thinking that leaving here is a blessing in disguise.

    I hope you get over it and can move along with your priorities in life...eventually, something will change and you'll awake in the morning and this will remain behind you from then on...I pray that it's soon for you.

    c h a r l i e
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  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    It's been nearly 25 yr since my grandfather passed , the best part of 35 since 2 close friends were killed in a plane crash and going on 45 yrs since a very close childhood companion and life guide went over the rainbow . I'm barely able to write this as I apparently have something in my eye or sudden onset allergies ..........

    At the tender age of 51 I've been to services for 37 members of family and friends that held the family distinction . I had lunch with a friend in highschool on Friday , saw him at the game Saturday night and he was gone Monday morning . I have tactlessly avoided that infinite moment of good bye all but once .

    I too did a 10yr stent as a fireman and ambulance driver . I'll never shake Mr Lee in the Rav 4 with the dash where the front seat backs should have been . The Christmas gifted perfectly stacked behind the back seat .
    The guy that bled out probably before the page was made still staring at his girlfriend's picture in his palm .

    There's no way to know when it will all go away ...........yes , there actually is . It doesn't . It will with time become manageable as you force yourself to think of that practical joke , day on the range , or the waitress that poured the pitcher of water in his lap . If you only see the last 5 minutes that lasted 73 hours when you remember him soon that's all you will remember of him . Look past that time find something to laugh about instead . Do so at inopportune times even .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992 .

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  4. #4
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    When my late wife died I was devastated. But then I realized that she was better off than I was. It's not something that you're going to forget, but you will get used to it. It wasn't easy when my parents died either, but I can still go forward. Many times I'd like to ask my parents how to do a certain thing, sometimes I just want to call them on the phone, but I know that I cannot.
    Tom
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  5. #5
    In Remembrance / Boolit Grand Master Boaz's Avatar
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    Tim loss of anyone you love or care for is hard . We are all wired differently when it comes to grieving . Losing a friend or family member in a sudden and tragic way is always more traumatizing . Sounds like you did all you could for Ricky including considering him a good friend . Include your pastor/priest in seeking relief , talk to GOD often . Ricky sounds like a good friend , I know he would want you to move on in your life . You will be reunited soon enough in a place where there is no pain .
    Thank you for letting us pray for relief brother . I will pray for you .
    No turning back , No turning back !

  6. #6
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    I lost a good friend of mine on July 10th and his funeral was yesterday. I'm still at the angry/sad point. Not angry at him just angry because. I know it will go away just not how long. I too seem to have gotten something in my eyes, must be this site. It's real easy to tell somebody to man up when they're not the ones having to suck it up and go on. I lost my grandfather 58 yrs ago and I think I'm ok but am I really? You are not the same person today that you were yesterday. Everything changes you, some very small some large. If there was something you did together that was fun for you, do it again and take his memory with you. I have my grandfather's rifle that he hunted with and my dad hunted with it so I take it out once in a while and go shooting with ghosts. As to how long is too long to grieve, you are the only one that can answer that question. You will come to terms with your grief as I will with mine. I hope this help you.

  7. #7
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    Love is the most powerful force in the Universe. You are dealing with something you literally cannot control. Grief is a process where you change the love that hurts into the love that gives. Does it work all the time? No... But it helps...

    Once in a while I put out a chair for 'uncle Larry' to sit in while we watch a funny movie....Or I'll look to see if mom is riding shotgun today.... yes, I know they are physically not there....but I smile just the same....

    Am I crazy? No..I don't think so ( crazy people don't think they are crazy)... I just miss those I love....

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    RU Shooter....What do you expect things will be like when the grieving process is over? Do you expect that you will no longer miss that person or care about that person? If that is your expectation than you will always be greatly disappointed.

    Grief is indeed a process that can last for a number of years. Things will never be the same, but there can be a new normal where you can function and have a meaningful life. This is the what the end of the grieving process looks and feels like for most people.

    So whether or not it is over for you, depends on what you think "over" is.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  9. #9
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    Tim, I'm sorry to say this but you'll never "get over it", you just get through it. Like others have posted, I also have plenty of "grief experience" throughout this life, I've buried my daughter, wife and mother all in less than 4yrs time recently and now find myself alone, "last man standing" so to say. No one can measure or feel your grief, much less tell you when enough is enough, I'd like to share a short bit with you though. Not written by me, merely borrowed and saved to share with others.



    "I'm old. What that means is that I've survived (so far) and a lot of people I've known and loved did not.

    I've lost friends, best friends, acquaintances, co-workers, grandparents, mom, relatives, teachers, mentors, students, neighbors, and a host of other folks. I have no children, and I can't imagine the pain it must be to lose a child. But here's my two cents...

    I wish I could say you get used to people dying. But I never did. I don't want to. It tears a hole through me whenever somebody I love dies, no matter the circumstances. But I don't want it to "not matter". I don't want it to be something that just passes. My scars are a testament to the love and the relationship that I had for and with that person. And if the scar is deep, so was the love. So be it.

    Scars are a testament to life. Scars are a testament that I can love deeply and live deeply and be cut, or even gouged, and that I can heal and continue to live and continue to love. And the scar tissue is stronger than the original flesh ever was. Scars are a testament to life. Scars are only ugly to people who can't see.

    As for grief, you'll find it comes in waves. When the ship is first wrecked, you're drowning, with wreckage all around you. Everything floating around you reminds you of the beauty and the magnificence of the ship that was, and is no more. And all you can do is float. You find some piece of the wreckage and you hang on for a while. Maybe it's some physical thing. Maybe it's a happy memory or a photograph. Maybe it's a person who is also floating. For a while, all you can do is float. Stay alive.

    In the beginning, the waves are 100 feet tall and crash over you without mercy. They come 10 seconds apart and don't even give you time to catch your breath. All you can do is hang on and float. After a while, maybe weeks, maybe months, you'll find the waves are still 100 feet tall, but they come further apart. When they come, they still crash all over you and wipe you out. But in between, you can breathe, you can function. You never know what's going to trigger the grief. It might be a song, a picture, a street intersection, the smell of a cup of coffee. It can be just about anything...and the wave comes crashing. But in between waves, there is life.

    Somewhere down the line, and it's different for everybody, you find that the waves are only 80 feet tall. Or 50 feet tall. And while they still come, they come further apart. You can see them coming. An anniversary, a birthday, or Christmas, or landing at O'Hare. You can see it coming, for the most part, and prepare yourself. And when it washes over you, you know that somehow you will, again, come out the other side. Soaking wet, sputtering, still hanging on to some tiny piece of the wreckage, but you'll come out.

    Take it from an old guy. The waves never stop coming, and somehow you don't really want them to. But you learn that you'll survive them. And other waves will come. And you'll survive them too."
    An old Cherokee was teaching his grandson about life. "Inside me two wolves fight," he told the boy.
    "One is evil - he is anger, envy, greed, arrogance, self-pity, resentment, lies, false pride, and ego. The other is good - he is joy, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, generosity, truth and faith. The same fight is inside you - and every other person, too."
    The grandson thought for a minute and asked,"Which wolf will win?"
    The old Cherokee replied, "The one you feed."

  10. #10
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    Helping those you don't know or aren't close to is relatively "easy." Dealing with someone you know and maybe love, when they die, especially when it's unexpected and sudden, is MUCH more difficult! It's a big part of why there's PTSD. PTSD occurs when we can't or haven't learned how to maintain our proper perspective - when our emotions overcome our facility for reason.

    Each of us knows that we, and each of our most beloved family and friends, is subject to being "recalled" in death at any instant. But nevertheless, we EXPECT that they'll live a full three score and ten or more. It's when our expectations are very forcefully revealed to be false that we have "trauma."

    Nobody likes killing other men, but on the battlefield, most men know they're doing it for their own survival, and because it's necessary, and NOT because they like it. They do it because it's their duty, and a price we sometimes must pay for our failings, individually and collectively, to conduct ourselves in a manner so as to avoid warfare.

    Even then, it's a heavy burden to bear, but most folks bear it pretty well, even though it IS a heavy burden to carry through life.

    What you need to do is reset your compass, I think. Losing a friend the way you did is indeed traumatic, as will be anything that confronts us with the harsher and most hated realities we live with daily. Focus on the Lord's gifts, and let those things He takes away go without lingering on the loss. We should all expect loss in life, but of course, when it comes, it always seems to be unexpectedly. Keep your compass set right, and you'll do fine. You'll always regret his passing, and maybe the way it happened, and that you couldn't help him, or save him, but ..... that's just life raising it's uglier side - a side that none of us is immune from having to deal with.

    There's a lady in my church who's well into her 80's but is still VERY active, mostly in our church. She had a heart problem when a child, and wasn't supposed to live to see age 20. Every night, she heard her Mom praying that she'd live, and that she'd thrive, and have a long life. She came to Christ after listening to her Mom for a while, and had no idea if she'd live or for how long. Now, nearly 70 years later, she's still going strong! She lost her husband of nearly 50 years recently, but few saw her shed tears. Such was her faith, that she took even that pretty well in stride. "The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord."

    And always keep in mind that you don't know that his manner of death may have been a Godsend to him. He didn't linger and suffer as so many do even now. He may have had all manner of horrible things to deal with had he lived. Who knows? The answer to that one is "God knows," and He always loves us, and may save us from bad things in our futures by taking us home early. And really, He made us all, and who can thus begrudge Him if he chooses to "pick a rose" now and then? I can't. I doubt anyone should, really.

    Life is what it is, and it happens for reasons, even when we don't know or understand those reasons, and may not understand for many years. Maybe we won't ever understand them, UNTIL we've passed the veil ourselves, and THEN come to know SO much that we cannot now understand. That's Faith. Faith in action. Faith fulfilling one of its purposes.

    So really, the answer to accepting most anything in this life we never wanted to happen, lies in a real and abiding Faith that, whatever happens, it's OK, and ordained by a truly loving God, and has some purpose whetehr we understand it or not right now. As in most all of life, Faith will see us through things that nothing else will ever be able to see us through. Christ didn't try to instill faith in us by accident, but because He loved us enough to give his life, and shed his precious perfect blood that we might not have to die. If that's not enough to instill real Faith in us, the fault lies within US, and NOT with God.

    It's time your faith grew, and we'll all be praying for you. It always takes a bit of time - the length varies considerably - to get over things lie this, and so many other situations. God be with you my friend.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master RU shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    RU Shooter....What do you expect things will be like when the grieving process is over? Do you expect that you will no longer miss that person or care about that person? If that is your expectation than you will always be greatly disappointed.

    Grief is indeed a process that can last for a number of years. Things will never be the same, but there can be a new normal where you can function and have a meaningful life. This is the what the end of the grieving process looks and feels like for most people.

    So whether or not it is over for you, depends on what you think "over" is.
    Honestly what I expect things to be like and what I want things to be like is whenever I hear someone say his name I remember all the good things first all those many hours working side by side and eating lunch together . Not what I deal with now , the image of his death , that entire day played over again . That is the part I want to be last in my thoughts and memories .

    I want to thank you all for your support and encouragement and prayers , I try not to get into personal things on here but today I was just having one of those days when I was having to deal things I didn't want to . Again thank you

    Tim
    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    RU Shooter....What do you expect things will be like when the grieving process is over? Do you expect that you will no longer miss that person or care about that person? If that is your expectation than you will always be greatly disappointed.

    Grief is indeed a process that can last for a number of years. Things will never be the same, but there can be a new normal where you can function and have a meaningful life. This is the what the end of the grieving process looks and feels like for most people.

    So whether or not it is over for you, depends on what you think "over" is.
    This is a really good question! I would add to it; has it gotten ANY better since the first week. As mentioned it is a process and is different for everyone who experiences it. I'm sure you've already been told this but going to work is a reminder of the loss even though you are able to stay focused while working. The sights, smells, sounds, people, etc are all triggers. Praying it gets easier.
    "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same......." - Ronald Reagan

    "It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather, we should thank God that such men lived." - George Patton

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  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I don't know whether or not to tell this here but (if it offends, I'll remove my response)...but, in 63 I had an experience where a neighborhood kid got electrocuted at a local motel swimming pool. He was dead as a hammer and turning blue, no breathing...the only adult around was the old lady who ran the desk and she called for an ambulance.
    Meanwhile everyone knew that someone had to do something. All the kids were hollering "do something!" "do something!"
    I don't know why I was the kid to try to get him breathing again, maybe because I carried his body to the motel office, I was as scared as the rest of the kids. I gave him mouth to mouth and mashed on his chest...over and over again for what seems like eternity waiting to hear that siren coming in the distance.
    God was willing and it worked, the ambulance finally got there and the men took over. The kid survived in the following weeks at hospital.

    Long story short...@ 13 years old, it affected me deeply. I remember riding home on my bicycle that day and crying uncontrollably all the way. In the weeks that followed everyone made a big deal out of it, his parents came to my house and wanted to express their gratitude...I couldn't handle talking about it, every time it was mentioned it made me well up with tears and deep emotion. I couldn't express my feelings and didn't understand why I was having them. I thought I should have been happy over the outcome but no.
    That lasted all that summer and later in the year when all us kids were back in school and distracted by all our school activities that eventful summer began to fade in memory. Or, at least it didn't get mentioned anymore.

    This is sort of a parallel to you in this instance...you being the one to try to help him. Whether or not that worked, you were in the position and willing to be 'first responder', that's a plateful of responsibility that you voluntarily took on while all others were spectators...and, I think it affects all responders qualified or not. It's the magnitude of the moment, you willing to get hands on, you understanding the 'life or death' aspect and the seriousness of the moment...that taps into an area inside us we don't usually operate within...it's only after it's over that the gravity of the experience sinks in and starts spinning our heads and hearts.
    As I said, I got over it and as time passed I was less emotional to a point where it became a memory without all the emotion.

    With time and prayer, this too may pass...
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyEllis View Post
    Tim, I'm sorry to say this but you'll never "get over it", you just get through it. Like others have posted, I also have plenty of "grief experience" throughout this life, I've buried my daughter, wife and mother all in less than 4yrs time recently and now find myself alone, "last man standing" so to say. No one can measure or feel your grief, much less tell you when enough is enough, I'd like to share a short bit with you though. Not written by me, merely borrowed and saved to share with others.



    "I'm old. What that means is that I've survived (so far) and a lot of people I've known and loved did not.

    I've lost friends, best friends, acquaintances, co-workers, grandparents, mom, relatives, teachers, mentors, students, neighbors, and a host of other folks. I have no children, and I can't imagine the pain it must be to lose a child. But here's my two cents...

    I wish I could say you get used to people dying. But I never did. I don't want to. It tears a hole through me whenever somebody I love dies, no matter the circumstances. But I don't want it to "not matter". I don't want it to be something that just passes. My scars are a testament to the love and the relationship that I had for and with that person. And if the scar is deep, so was the love. So be it.

    Scars are a testament to life. Scars are a testament that I can love deeply and live deeply and be cut, or even gouged, and that I can heal and continue to live and continue to love. And the scar tissue is stronger than the original flesh ever was. Scars are a testament to life. Scars are only ugly to people who can't see.

    As for grief, you'll find it comes in waves. When the ship is first wrecked, you're drowning, with wreckage all around you. Everything floating around you reminds you of the beauty and the magnificence of the ship that was, and is no more. And all you can do is float. You find some piece of the wreckage and you hang on for a while. Maybe it's some physical thing. Maybe it's a happy memory or a photograph. Maybe it's a person who is also floating. For a while, all you can do is float. Stay alive.

    In the beginning, the waves are 100 feet tall and crash over you without mercy. They come 10 seconds apart and don't even give you time to catch your breath. All you can do is hang on and float. After a while, maybe weeks, maybe months, you'll find the waves are still 100 feet tall, but they come further apart. When they come, they still crash all over you and wipe you out. But in between, you can breathe, you can function. You never know what's going to trigger the grief. It might be a song, a picture, a street intersection, the smell of a cup of coffee. It can be just about anything...and the wave comes crashing. But in between waves, there is life.

    Somewhere down the line, and it's different for everybody, you find that the waves are only 80 feet tall. Or 50 feet tall. And while they still come, they come further apart. You can see them coming. An anniversary, a birthday, or Christmas, or landing at O'Hare. You can see it coming, for the most part, and prepare yourself. And when it washes over you, you know that somehow you will, again, come out the other side. Soaking wet, sputtering, still hanging on to some tiny piece of the wreckage, but you'll come out.

    Take it from an old guy. The waves never stop coming, and somehow you don't really want them to. But you learn that you'll survive them. And other waves will come. And you'll survive them too."
    That is the best description of grief that I have heard after 37 years as a therapist.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  15. #15
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    mr. bojangles....after 20 years he still grieves.

    it never goes away.

  16. #16
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    RU,
    Perhaps you are focused on the wrong thing. Will some grieve at my passing the way I miss my friend? Building our own legacy of love is a fill time job . I believe that God wastes nothing, and your intmate familiarity with searing loss may be a lifeline to someone who desperately needs understanding in similar struggles. God may be setting you up to be the answer to someone else's prayers!
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  17. #17
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    My friend, firstly, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I'm not a religious person, I just popped my head in to check out this forum and saw your post.

    But...

    I'm a (Canadian) army veteran, and have had friends killed and wounded in action. The worst was losing our Regimental Sergeant Major (Command Sergeant Major for the Yanks) and his driver. Much like yourself, seeing dead and maimed enemy and civilian bodies and the parts left of bodies - people I didn't know - never bothered me too much. It was unpleasant and gross, but it didn't stick with me. Killing didn't bother me either, it was just business, and no one forced those guys to be there. Getting shot at and being in danger didn't bother me, if I'm being honest it was actually exhilarating. Losing comrades is another story entirely. That sucks hard. I wasn't prepared for that.

    My wife is a mental health nurse, and I've learned a ton from her that took a long time to sink in. There's no such thing as too long. You'll feel how you feel, and everyone experiences events - even the same events - in
    their own way. The deaths of my comrades happened in 2006, and it took many years until the emotionality of it was reduced - eight years, more or less. It's a lot of hard work, and takes the right fit between caregiver and client to overcome. At the worst, I'd be a non functioning mess. I broke my hand twice punching concrete walls. I
    nearly killed myself on a motorcycle several times through reckless behaviour. I self medicated with alcohol lots. It took a long time and much effort to get better.

    I'm not going to begin to presume to tell you how you should feel, or what the solution is, just that WHAT you are feeling is normal and ok. All I can do otherwise is describe my own experience. The worst thing for me was the sense of helplessness at not being able to prevent their deaths, and the guilt at having survived when they didn't. It's not rational; there wasn't anything I could have done to affect the outcome, but knowing that intellectually and feeling it emotionally are different things. It's perfectly fine to feel the way you do. It's human. The problem is when past trauma interferes with you living your life to the fullest. I still think about my dead comrades every day (there's a saying that when you're a veteran, every day is Remembrance Day... Memorial Day for you Yanks), but the emotionality is largely gone and it doesn't impair my functioning like it used to.

    If I may, I would highly recommend screening yourself for PTSD. I don't know if that's already been done, I'm sure it must have been, but I'll include a link anyway. Links are free, right? https://adaa.org/screening-posttraum...-disorder-ptsd

    As I say, I don't mean to suggest this hasn't been done. I have no idea. But I will say that even with a great caregiver (psychiatrist, psychologist, whatever) it can take many years. Three years after the incident I'm talking about, I hadn't yet even begun to process my feelings. I was still serving and they were entirely suppressed just as you learn suppress all discomforting things when you're in the army. So, you're way ahead of where I was, chronologically speaking. Being willing to talk and reach out for help is a huge step, you should be very very proud of yourself for being able to do that. If I may offer a piece of advice, it's to forgive yourself for you feelings and give yourself permission to feel the way you do. Don't beat yourself up for having these feelings, I did and it definitely didn't help... actually it made things a lot worse.

    Best of luck, it's not easy. In fact it can be a full time job to recover from trauma like that. If you do actually have PTSD, I would imagine that it may be covered under your workers comp or employers insurance. I have no idea how it works in the US, but if a worker is injured on the job in Canada - and PTSD is an injury, not an illness - they're covered. You took on a responsibility, the burden isn't and shouldn't be yours alone to bear.

    That's all this heathen's got. Sorry for intruding on your space but I'd feel like a sh*theel if I didn't try to help. My thoughts are with you in your recovery.
    Last edited by Flashman929; 08-02-2017 at 10:34 PM.

  18. #18
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    This is a video made about my friends. Omer was my CO, a backwoods northern Canadian boy who grew up hunting and shooting, and one of the crustiest soldiers I ever met. If losing his RSM makes a guy like that tear up, that tells you something. Everyone in this video is still grieving. I'm still in touch with his wife Jackie from time to time, and she most certainly still grieves every day.


  19. #19
    Boolit Master pjames32's Avatar
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    Tim, my thoughts and prayers are with you. I'm not sure how lengthy to make his, but I'll try keep it reasonably short. I lost my first close friend at age 15, another at 18 and many more in Viet Nam. Since those were 40-55 years ago I became kind of bullet proof, I thought. We lost our only child in 2003 at age 33. That was the big hit for my wife and I. We've lost our parents and dealt with that well, but a child............that's just more than most marriages can stand. So far, we have made it. The best advise I can give you is that you will not get over it, but you will get better at dealing with it. Cherish the memories and realize there is nothing you can change. If you are religious I encourage your prayer and your faith. Good luck.
    NRA Benefactor Member

  20. #20
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    buckwheatpaul's Avatar
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    Jun 2013
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    Tim, I have been thinking about what you wrote. There is no time limit to grief. Grief deals with the loss of a person that was very close to a person and while some can deal with it in a few days and yet others take years to complete the process of grieving. It is obvious that you cared very much for this individual and work mate. And as long as someone remembers a departed person that person still exists. You have tried deal with it personally and you have used professional help. I would encourage you to keep doing both and you will heal. God will heal you through those two paths. Paul
    When guns are outlawed only criminals and the government will have them and at that time I will see very little difference in either!

    "Within the covers of the Bible are the answers for all the problems man faces." President Ronald Reagan

    "We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the law breaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is acoutable for his actions." Presdent Ronald Reagan

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check