Accuracy Expectations at 25 yards with cast bullets

[ErnieBishop]

Me too!



Can't see why that would be offensive. Precisely why there are so many shooting disciplines, everything couldn't possibly be for everyone.

Rick

I enjoy LR (Out to 1K and further), with single-shot handguns.
Some ISHMA guys in the past have basically told me that you pretty much need to shoot ISHMA if you want to be aligned with precision shooting and or distance. Basically offended that I would try LR handgunning and not have their background.
I am all about folks finding what they enjoy, and not try to fit someone into anyone's box.
Doesn't matter to me if it is in an area that is different than mine.
The Franken-Ruger transformation is in the process.
I know what folks can do on a good day with an XP or MOA Maximum at a grand or further, because we have been doing that for awhile.
I can't say that about distance shooting with a revolver, yet

[ErnieBishop]

I get that.
If it was prone shooting, shooting over a pack, sitting with shooting sticks or some Bog-Gear (field shooting), it would have been more interesting to me. Oh yes, and make the distances further please with targets about the size of an animals vitals or smaller.
Just because that is the way I would like it, sure doesn't make it right or better. I'm just an odd-duck as far as preferences I guess.

Fair enough, I haven't ever had time to try it but it looks like a blast to me, I was just speaking as to being pretty impressive from a marksmanship standpoint.

[robertbank]

I didn't believe a bloke could pop a balloon at 1000 with a 9mm but it's been done,there's plenty of 2''-3'' rifle groups shot at 1000. Pat

Well in point in fact he didn't exactly. He did manage to hit a steel plate after several tries and the splatter broke the balloon. Quite the feat considering, IIRC the bullet drop for the 9MM is something in the neighbourhood of 110 inches at that distance. Jerry is a shooting god and nobody is going to argue that. His feat is a far cry from shooting a 1.5" group at 500 yards with an iron sighted handgun. That is what was claimed and not only claimed but suggested to be a frequent occurrence and that is nonsensical and simply not true. It has been years since I tried my hand at geometry but have someone work out the type of accuracy at the medium distance of say 250 yards necessary to complete a 1.5" group at 500 yards. If you wish to believe it was done and I use the past tense then there is nothing more to say. Enjoy Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. All of which do exist incidentally.

Take Care

Bob
With a rifle shooting a 2" - 3" group at 1,000 yards would be quite an accomplishment using iron sights. With a scope I am sure there are folks who may have done it. Conditions would have to be perfect. No doubt there will be some on this thread who do it regularly and to them I raise my hat.

[cbrick]

Ernie, I really am interested in your long range revolver shooting. I hope you post your trials, tribulations and results. It'll be some fascinating reading and no doubt I'll learn something from it.

Rick

[DougGuy]

I'm going to ask for a mod to close this thread. There are some earnestly posted replies that tried to address the OP's question, but by far it has gotten out of hand and it needs to have the brakes applied..

[cbrick]

I'm going to ask for a mod to close this thread. There are some earnestly posted replies that tried to address the OP's question, but by far it has gotten out of hand and it needs to have the brakes applied..

?

That's quite an interesting post. Considering it's not your post what would give you the idea that locking it is up to you? If any thread is not to YOUR liking the solution is really simple . . . Don't read it!

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

I will share all the good and gory details.
I am the one doing the learning here. Everything will be a first time attempt.
It is an attainable goal, but that does not mean it will happen.
That is not to say that there has not been a lot of planning going on.
TOF @ 500 yards, will be similar to a couple of my SP's at 900 & 950 yards respectively.

Ernie, I really am interested in your long range revolver shooting. I hope you post your trials, tribulations and results. It'll be some fascinating reading and no doubt I'll learn something from it.

Rick

[robertbank]

To the OP there are a few excellent replies. So much depends on your skill level with a handgun and access yourself then do the best you can with the skill levels you now have and may acquire over time. From personal experience it can be very frustrating. In my prime I never had the patience (read skill) to shoot really tight groups at a distance of 25 yards with a handgun. Over time my skills improved to a point, then the ageing process set in and I am comfortable with where I am now and continue to marvel at what is possible. One thing I have learned and have known for years is tight groups are shot less often then often claimed. Magazine writers all seem to be America's 2nd squad for the Olympics but for the fact the groups, shot with an off the shelf/demonstration/prototype gun, would have been under (2" - 4") had it not been for their always claimed called flyer. This statement is often followed with a suggestion the tested blaster could do much better with someone who could really shoot and was a must buy for anyone who was serious about shooting.

Good luck, practice often and be the best you can be. You will die a happy man.

Bob

[ErnieBishop]

Well said Bob.

[9.3X62AL]

Well said Bob.

Full agreement. Another poster from British Columbia pretty much nailed it as well.

[41mag]

Wondering what 'typical' groups are like from a handgun rest @ 25 yards?

Have been shooting a Vaquero and Blackhawk .38 special with my own various cast bullet loads. 4" groups is about the best I've been able to muster with cast bullets, and have no tried any jacketed loads. More typical is in the 6" range for groups. Seems like things could be better but I have no standard to judge by.

My 1911 will do 2-3" with cast bullet loads thus far, which seems acceptable to me given it's a homebrew bullet...

From your post above,

With 38's loaded over around 3.8 or so grains of BE give or take a grain you should get some decent groups. That said your alloy, seating depth, case tension, primer, and crimp all play a significant role.

At this range WC's might work out best. As for weight usually around 140-150grs depending on the mold and alloy.

With the 45 you might try some 185-220 SWC's using around 4 or so grains of BE.

[M-Tecs]

Quite the feat considering, IIRC the bullet drop for the 9MM is something in the neighbourhood of 110 inches at that distance.

Robert I agree 100% except for the drop. Per the Federal web site http://www.federalpremium.com/ballistics_calculator/ a 9mm sighted with 124 FMJ at 50 yards drops 3199.3" at a 1,000 yards.

A 308 with 168's is 420" drop at a 1,000 yards when sighted at a 100. It's 399" when sighted at 200 yards.

For the OP I don't shoot the standard blackhawk grip very well. I can half my groups with a bisely grip. Factory jacketed ammo is a good baseline. You should be able to equal factory. If not start looking a throats or barrel constriction under the threads.

[aya]

Testing a new gun, i shoot some quality factory loads and some proven handloads with jacketed bullets. The best loads would be shot again in 4x5 shot groups. This would give me, what i call the accuracy potensial of the gun, AND the shooter. The last mentioned , the weak link!
Anyway, i expect my castboolit loads to at least equal this, or to be a tad better.
I had period of ten to fifteen years with no serious testing, when sparetime again was available , I had some new boolits and powders to test, but none of them was what i was hoping for. Then i tried some proven loads, just to cheer myself up a bit, BUT those groups was not as the last time i tested from the bench. Sadly had to admit, i was not thirty years old any longer, closer to sixty in fact. I had to adjust my accuracy standards with all my guns, so now it is fun again! It is nice to compete against yourself, not just the X-ring. By the way, in my opinion, a good handgun with an balanced load, should be capable of 2 inches or better from the bench at 25 yards, as an average from 4x5 shots.

[robertbank]

Holy horse feathers that is significant. I kinda thought my info was shady on the drop. I suspect Jerry would not want to pay for the ammo to try to do the shot again. Brings new meaning to the phrase "shoot the moon.".

Take Care

Bob

[M-Tecs]

Just a side note on the 168 in a 308. You get 109" of drift with a full value 10 mph wind at 1,000 yds. I did shoot one match that required 18 to 22 minutes of wind.

On the long range handgunning hitting larger targets is suprisingly easy if you can see bullet impact dust. You just walk them in. I have only shot 45 colt out to about 600/650 yard but hitting a 18" x 24" rock wasn't that hard. First shot may miss by 30 or 40 yards but with walking them in I normally could get a couple of hits with two or three cylinders. If it was too wet to see impacts it was almost impossible to get a hit.

As kid I reloaded 45 Colt and 45/70 for a reenactment club (7th Calvary) . I basically had an unlimited supply of ammo. The club range only went to 300 yards but across the creek up on the hill side there was a white chalky rock about 18” wide by 24” tall about 600 or 650 yards out. Every time you hit it you would see a puff of white dust.

Since you could normally see the bullet impacts on the hill side you could walk the rounds in. I was using light loads in Colt Old Army type pistols, a Ruger Blackhawk and Trapdoor Springfield’s. Shot thousands of rounds at that rock. Got quite good at it.

I also shoot NRA High Power and Long range and I understand wind drift and trajectory. As a long range shooter it seems like BS because I am looking a first round hits and repeatability. As someone who has done a lot of long range rock busting with 45 Colt and 45/70 it’s really not that hard if you can see the bullet impacts and you can walk them in.

[MT Gianni]

I'm an older (much older) guy that has shot for some 60 years...I used to be capable of some pretty nice groups with about anything I shot and did a whole lot of practice ...but now...with aging and somewhat weak eyes and all the other fun that goes with a man in his mid 70's...what would be acceptable "back then" is only a dream now...but I still enjoy shooting and just do the best I can...4" freehand for me at 25 yards is a decent group on a decent day..I don't shoot off bags or a rest..never really have as I know the gun and the ammo will outshoot me.

Interesting bit of "reality"...I used to shoot at a local indoor range where some folks that are in one branch of Federal Law Enforcement used to shoot on a regular basis...I watched 7, 10, and 15 yard shooting that was not a group..it was a "pattern"...shooting .40 semi's...I was amazed and asked the range officer about the seeming lack of ability and accuracy on the part of the shooters and he replied that they qualify at 7 and 10 yards and a "man target" with most of the shots in center mass is "good enough"...Just surprised me...I can shoot my CZ in 9mm and in .40 closer today with all my difficulties than what I was seeing.

With all qualifying data available to a lawyer, the last thing an LEO wants it to have qualified at the highest level possible and be on the stand having to account for an errant shot that went anywhere other than the hostile that was shooting at them. The B27 target has an accurate resemblance to a human with very wide ringss when compared to a bullseye target.

[PAT303]

Prob a waste of time to tell half the culprits the point but here ya go.

You obviously were given a question by a new to cast bullet shooter.

That person wanted some sound advice. A little guidance.

He needed a to the point post which after what....5-6 pages I put up there....sorry I didn't see the thread sooner.

Instead he got.....well....everything but that.....

And what he got a lot of was rubbish that was so deep you needed waders to walk through.

I'm sorry if that offends you or the 1.5" at 500 yards poo post.....

By the way.....there are a good bit of optics equipped custom bench rifles that don't do that....with shooting rest and bags worth more than your wheel gun....so it's safe to say that's a false statement.

It's a false statement to say it doesn't happen sorry,we shoot 500m fly shoot here,unless you shoot under 2''-3'' at 500m your not in the top 20,like posted already,you blokes need to get out more and see what really good shooters can do. Pat

[PAT303]

Worth repeating:"Wondering what 'typical' groups are like from a handgun rest @ 25 yards?"

Actually the answer has been given as well as what boolit styles,grip,bag technique etc etc is needed for accuracy. Pat

[runfiverun]

heck 12' at 1,000 yds would be what? 1-2 mm front sight hold over from the actual target.



this thread has just wandered away from the op's question, if insults or whatever start then it will be closed and points issued.
we are already following the thread over in the staff section.

[cbrick]

It's a false statement to say it doesn't happen sorry,we shoot 500m fly shoot here,unless you shoot under 2''-3'' at 500m your not in the top 20,like posted already,you blokes need to get out more and see what really good shooters can do. Pat

Don't loose any sleep over any of his posts Pat, none of them make much sense. He's had a couple or three posts such as below where he attributes me to lying about my groups, calls them poo posts. I just chalk it up to an arrogant poster that can't figure out who posted what. Since I have never fired a single revolver round past 200 meters it would probably be a safe bet that I've never posted grouping results at 500 yards. I was also accused by a different poster that the only way I could do what I do is with a keyboard. No shortage of people that are convinced that since they can't do it there couldn't possibly be anyone that could therefore they are liars. Just chalk it up to comedy central time and move on.

Still trying to figure out just what the cost of any of my revolvers has to do with the price of Panda poo in China but I guess that must be important to him. Perhaps it's because my revolvers don't cost as much as a shooting rest it's obvious I'm lying about groups I never fired or posted. So yeah, comedy central time.

I'm sorry if that offends you or the 1.5" at 500 yards poo post.....

By the way.....there are a good bit of optics equipped custom bench rifles that don't do that....with shooting rest and bags worth more than your wheel gun....so it's safe to say that's a false statement.

Now if you really want comedy just read the posts in this thread since he went on his thread drift rant. Really strange, not another word about thread drift.

Some of this stuff is much better than what is supposed to be entertainment on the tube.

Rick