Ickisrulz, I agree.
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Ickisrulz, I agree.
No, but we need to know that "Thou shalt not kill" correctly means you shall not murder; BIG difference! Most children can read what the Bible says but it often takes understanding to know what it means.Originally Posted by 468
How so? I’ve never “heard” someone interpret any of the commandments before.
"Thou shalt not kill" is in itself not quite accurate in translation. It would be better said, "Thou shalt do no murders."
The very first commandment after the flood was for the execution of murderers. Eventually, Israel was given some other laws that involved the death penalty. Additionally, Israel was instructed to go to war against the wicked people occupying Canaan.
Nor do I, unless I know their history. But the OP stated he was raised a Catholic, so ... . As it happens I do have some respect for Anslem.
Wayne the Shrink
There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!
???
The commandment in the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill"
What does that mean?...it means thou shalt not kill!
If you are going to change what the Bible says then write your own book.
Granted, the Bible has many passages that I feel have been mistranslated, and perhaps that is another one.
But for the hard core Christian, they believe what the Bible says....it is the Word of God after all, right?
You are saying, regarding that commandment, that you are correct and God is not.
Uh-h-h-h,.....nope.
When you interpret the Bible you have to determine what it is actually saying. If you are to just stick with what you see on the page of your KJV, you have "Thou shalt not kill."
Does this mean you shouldn't kill a chicken for dinner? I am assuming that you do not conclude this. So you have already gone beyond what the text says on the surface. I can safely guess you think this prohibition against killing only applies to human beings, right? But does this mean we cannot righteously kill humans ever? The Bible records God telling men to kill other men in certain circumstances. Therefore, we know that it is not always wrong to kill people.
As I said above, this commandment would have better been translated "Thou shalt not murder." In fact it is translated this way in more modern translations.
Nope, it's not from me. It's what the Bible means and I have no desire to control God's intended message but I do want to understand that message. Christians are charged to "rightly divide the word", i.e., to pull out the real meaning of the words. We are charged to not argue with each other over trivial words but for us to understand what the Bible means.
In this case, the 1611 King James translators (primarily) worked from the Roman Catholic's Vulgate which is a LATIN translation that came from their St. Jerome's (less than perfect) translation of the old Hebrew old testament scrolls and the later Greek New Testament codexs, circa 400 AD; there is more than a little room for honest translation mistakes in that. BUT, by the protective hand of God, the few valid "errors" of word meanings are trivial and in no way invalidates or even questions any part of orthodox Christian doctrine.
So, if we accept that the original documents written in Hebrew and Aramaic and Greek were perfect but now we don't have them and believe our translated versions from different languages are good but not perfect, how may we rightly suspect when it seems we find word errors in English?
I do it by first recognizing God is not going to put conflicting and confusing messages in his Bible. I mean, if there's an apparent contradiction I know it's in the translation OR in my interpretation! When I find that, THEN I do word studies to reconcile what appears to be a contradiction and it usually comes clear. As found in kill vs. murder.
We KNOW God instructed his people to utterly destroy some people, and to cut down lot of people with swords, and to stone certain sinning Hebrews to death, etc. Most of those Hebrew "murders"(?) occurred under the Mosaic Law, long after they had the 10 Commandments. So, was God commanding them to sin in murder? NO!
Thus, the simple statement "Thou shalt not kill" cannot possibly mean it's a sin for anyone to kill anyone at any time. Us calling all deaths murder is not only illogical but a transparently misleading interpretation, it can't possibly mean that God himself sees all killing as murder!
Knowingly or not, men insisting that all killing is murder strive to make themselves the real authority and, in the effort, makes God appear (at least to the lost) to be arbitrary and callous. That's an insult to God's nature because He definitely is not.
Bottom line, God commanding man not to murder does not demand that all killing under any circumstances is murder. BUT, IF you really think all this is only ME talking, avoid the words of all versions by getting a transliterated Bible and good Bible lexicons for the Hebrew and Greek words and look it up for yourself. (I bet you would enjoy doing it too!)
So, I’m doing some reading and, more mportantantly, thinking. I don’t quite understand how some “speak” so authoritatively regarding the Bible, as if their statements are THE absolute, accurate, flawless, truth. They believe the Bible is THE law because the Bible says that it is. It’s almost as if one has to give up their sense of logic and believe it because it just says you should.
It seems to me that this is but their own interpretation of a collection of books and stories, which are actually interpretations, of someone’s understanding of what they think was said, or what they say they were told, thousands of years ago. Plausibly, these various writers were much less educated than most of us, and quite possibly told fantastic stories to emphasize a point, or scare others into or out of a perticular behavior.
Is everything written in the Bible true? Eve being fashioned from a rib? Jonah living in the belly of a whale? A pair of every species on an arc? ( has anybody ever done the math on the arc?...how big was that thing?!...what’s a cubit?) Why have there been no modern day examples(last 500 years or so) of the sensational stories stated in the OT?
For those who say the Bible is THE law...do you, to the best of your human ability, live by every written rule? ...from Genesis to Revelations? If you don’t, how do you decide which rules to follow? ... or which ones you don’t? Which one’s are ok not to follow? How do you know, with such authority and conviction, that “Thou shalt not kill” means something else? I didn’t read where Jesus ammended that commandment, or change the meaning of “kill”. If one changes the meaning of kill, why can’t one change the meaning of anything else they need to, to support their particular opinion?
What about those who have never heard of Jesus? Early native Americans for example. They weren’t God’s chosen as it was said that the pre- Jesus Jews were. So they’re out of consideration because they “didn’t get the memo”?... Mayans, Aztecs, ... were they Pagans?... did they even know they were Pagans? How could they? Why would they be excluded?
I’m not judging. I’m asking. If “it” works for you, do it.
There is a lot of questions there
I'm your opening paragraph you said it correctly,we have to give up our understanding and follow Him. Think about this all we know and understand is what we have seen and experienced. We cannot comprehend more then what we know. God is all knowing there isn't anything beyond his knowlage why wouldn't we submit to that ? Why do we keep falling back on ourselves? Pride? Lack of faith ?
Keep reading keep praying stop trying to understand. start listing to the call in you
Ps if I remember right a cubit is 3 ft googel is your friend
when the dust settles and the smoke clears all that matters is I hear the words " well done my good and faithfully servant "
<(*)(()><
Sorry it's one foot six inches
when the dust settles and the smoke clears all that matters is I hear the words " well done my good and faithfully servant "
<(*)(()><
1hole,
After my reply to you, later that day I reflected on the Thou shalt not kill issue and what you said and what I said in my reply.
I gave a knee-jerk reply and probably came across rather disrespectful.
I apologize for that.
Where I was coming from is much like what 468 replied about,
That is, there are people that take what is written strictly. After all, it is the Word of God.
I do agree that Thou shalt not kill undoubtedly means murder.
For the truth seeker I feel that reading the Bible can just add more confusion to that person, especially the God of the Old Testament vs the New Testament and among other things such as Thou shalt not kill.
Anyway, I hope you understand.
468, you raise some good (secular) questions about the infallible Bible in general and about fallible Christians in particular. I'll touch on a few that seem most important.
First, what is the "bible"? Bible is simply a Greek word meaning book. What we call Bible is a bound collection of 66 books written over about 1,500 years by something like 50 authors, each of whom God used to write what He wanted later followers to know. God obviously didn't much care what men might later think and He left out a lot He knew we would like to know.
No Bible author could have known he was writing for the ages when he took pen in hand nor would he have invented such stories of imperfect humans God would use to make things right at the end. You won't find that kind of humble record in any other religion's leaders history.
Christians don't know what God's plan is for the people you list and we don't need to - nor do you. What matters to us is what He has told us, we who have either read or been taught the gospel and what we choose to do with what we know.
The Bible was absolutely correct at the time it was written but we don't have those autographs and we would not comprehend them if we did; very few of use can read any of the original languages. What Bible scholars of all ranks have to work with is old copies with missing fragments that have been and must again be translated into other languages. Our collective self-righteous squabbles over if St. Peter and St. Paul used the KJV or NIV, etc. are silly.
In translating, grammar is as important as the hopeful/best guess definitions of individual words. ALL translations between languages for the Bible or any other purpose are, at best, the understandings of the translators who know there are various ways to convey exactly the same thing when men of good will are communicating between languages. After all, it's the message that remains infallible and matters, not how it's said or written or misunderstood.
There is a limit as to how different versions of scripture are written because a few versions have been deliberately corrupted to some degree by cultists professing to be Christian (Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Seventh Day Adventists, Unitarians, etc.) to support the distorted salvation teachings of their founders but, happily, there is little effective difference in mainline Bible versions.
Now, what about Christian "hypocrites"? Welllll ... if we define it as anyone who fails to attain perfection in this life, that would be all of us. But, the life rules we are given are what we're supposed to measure ourselves by, not others. And God's salvation can't be earned by any of us anyway. THAT'S why Jesus died on the cross, he paid the spiritual death penalty for our failures so we will not have to. Thus, our eternal (spiritual) salvation rests entirely on Jesus, not us. We accept or reject the costly gift he freely offers us but we can't earn it by being "good" enough.
Now, you ask about what rules are we supposed to live, God's or our own. To answer that I'd need to know which of God's life rules you disagree with.
I ask you, are God's clear and absolute moral and spiritual rules better or worse than man's whimsical and flexible rules? If you say we should rule ourselves then there can't be any real rules at all because each generation will shift things as they wish. Man always shifts the rules of life down but there be huge and bloody monsters in those deep waters.
Last edited by 1hole; 03-30-2019 at 01:51 PM.
Perhaps one would consider reading a short passage from the bible everyday...takes a few minutes and gives you something to reflect on. The American Bible Society will e-mail one to you; they don't come after you for donations or fill your in box with junk e-mails. You can easily unsubscribe anytime. If one fits it into their daily routine; it will be most beneficial.
https://www.americanbible.org/resour...-bible-reading
7I hole, I don’t think you answered any of my questions. But you’re not obligated to. Thats a problemI have with some. Seems a bit evasive. But that’s MY problem, not yours. No disrespect intended.
Wally, the problem I see with taking but a passage is not using the full context of that writing. I’ve read where Jesus said Sell your cloak and buy a sword. People says this proves that we should own guns. A passage or 2 later, Jesus says Two is enough.(paraphrasing) does this mean he only wants us to own 2? I’ve posed that to the forum with no responses.
All good guys. Friendly discussion.
Last edited by 468; 03-30-2019 at 02:50 PM.
rl69... even a cubit is up for debate. ... LOL
There was a whole discussion on the "buy a sword" passage on this very forum. Every possible answer is given...some were even supported. See link below (post #5 in that thread is particularly well thought out.)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ys-buy-a-sword
468, I forgot to mention it but Jesus didn't change "murder" to "kill", the KJV translators did that. Many later translators knew better but followed suit just to hold down the howls of outrage about "changing God's words". But, thankfully, not all of translators bow to the mistaken pressure.
Now I love the KJV. I grew up with it and still read it regularly. But I KNOW it's the least accurate of the current mainstream versions but it's still quite good even tho its old English grammar can be very hard to the point of impossibility to follow in some places. In fact, those of us cry about variations that vary from a replica KJV couldn't read much of the original English text if they had one, it's like trying to read a book from outer space!
Anyone wanting to get a Bible free from translators versions needs to obtain a transliterated Bible, it simply translates each word while leaving the original grammar in place. And, a transliterated Bible reads O.T. (Hebrew) from right to left as it was in the original texts; try reading that for a literal effort sports fans!
An interlinear Bible still makes use of translators and their judgements on how words should be translated.Anyone wanting to get a Bible free from translators versions needs to obtain a transliterated Bible, it simply translates each word while leaving the original grammar in place. And, a transliterated Bible reads O.T. (Hebrew) from right to left as it was in the original texts; try reading that for a literal effort sports fans!
Word for word translations can cause the reader to miss just as much as more free translations. In order to arrive at how a passage or word should be translated, the translator must know how the ancient words and phrases were used and understood by the original audiences. An English reader using an interlinear still will not be able to do this. We really need the experts to explain their translation decisions (e.g., in scholarly commentaries).
Jas 1:26, 27
Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
Who can argue against this? Does it seem reasonable to ask of us? Are we just a bunch of dogs chasing their tails? Perhaps?
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