45 caliber Air Rifle

[HollowPoint]

Hey, I just bought a new Korean .45 caliber air rifle. My reason for posting here is to ask some of you more experienced bullet designer guys for some input on an optimum bullet design and weight for this rig.

Just for arguments sake well say it'll be used for paper punching out to 75 yards. I have yet to shoot it. In fact I'm waiting for the FedX guy to drop it off today.

The Rifling Twist is said to be 1 in 20.5. Velocity as it comes from the factory is said to hover around 750 to 800 fps.

Now, being the chronic tinkerer that I am, (I think it's a sickness) I fully intend to dismantle this toy completely just to see what makes it tick. With any luck I'll be able to make a few modifications to up the velocity numbers I listed above.

What drove me to buy such a toy? It had a little bit to do with the fact that I've grown weary of buying primers, gas checks, brass and powder; repeatedly.

But mostly it was because, over the last couple of years I've developed a severe case of tendonitis in my "Drawing Arm." This means that I can no longer enjoy the sport of archery hunting without having to endure several weeks of extreme pain afterwards.

I really liked the "Spot-N-Stalk" method of hunting that bow and arrow hunting afforded me. Although I've had to give up archery, I haven't given up hunting.

Since this Air Rifle is a "Close Up" hunting implement, I figured it would give me the same pleasure I derived for "Spot-N-Stalk" hunting with a bow and arrows. Not to mention the fact that it gave me an excuse to buy another toy.

(Sadly, the only things that can be legally hunted with "Pneumatic Weapons" here in Arizona at the present time are cottontails and maybe Jackrabbits.)

Since I have more .44 caliber bullet molds than I have .45 caliber molds, I've also considered changing the barrel out to a .44 caliber.

For those of you who might be inclined to offer up suggestions regarding a good bullet for this set up, could you also offer up some suggestions for optimum .44 bullet shapes and sizes.

Thanks
HollowPoint

[9.3X62AL]

This is one INTRIGUING text, sir.

I can offer no assistance on projectile design, but I have air-rifle hunted for quite some time in California. All of our resident game birds are lawful to take with airguns .20" caliber or larger. I am not an archery hunter, but your description of the spot-and-stalk nature of the sport is right on the money.

I am assuming that due to your disability and the platform's velocity potential the rifle is a pre-charged pneumatic. What is the weight of typical pellets for the rifle?

I have 2 air rifles that get afield quite a bit. Both are RWS, a Model 45 break-barrel in .177 and a Model 52 side-lever in 25 caliber. The M-45 can get 800-900 FPS with its pellets weighing 7.2 to 8.3 grains. Spire-pointed pellets kill ground squirrels and crows a LOT better than the wadcutter target pellets like Meisterkugelns.

The M-52 has been re-sprung by its initial owner, and runs the 27 grain Beeman Crow Magnums to 780 FPS. This is every bit of the power present in a 22 Short handgun, and the Crow Magnum pellet is a shallow hollw point. The rifle is an unalloyed bee-otch to cock, though. It hits with a discernable THWOCK on ground squirrels, crows, and jackrabbits. They seldom do anything but roll over and expire, and that effect is good to 35 yards or so. Early season chukar and quail around here get wise in a hurry when the shotgunners show up in October, but I've nailed a couple Gambel's quail with the 25. No chukars--yet.

Best of luck with that big-bore air rifle!

[HollowPoint]

Greetings Sir.

You are correct. The rifle itself is a Big Bore Sam Yang PCP in caliber .45.

If one buys their cast bullets pre-made they are available in any weight from 125 to 385 grain. Also; there are lead round balls of about 140 grain. I'm sure there are others available.

I spoke to a gal at the Arizona Game and Fish Department before purchasing this Air Rifle just to confirm what I'd read on their "Regulations" pages. It stated that "Pneumatic Weapons" (of any caliber) could only be used for hunting rabbits..

Have you ever hunted cottontails with a .45? I have. Not a pretty picture. However, it is effective if you're good at head-shots.

When I asked her how one would go about changing those regulations to include Big Bore Air Rifles she stated that I'd already taken the first step in the process. Apparently all inquiries regarding this type of suggestion are reviewed by the powers that be here in Arizona.

I'm just one guy though. If there are any other Big Bore PCP Air Rifle shooters/hunters from AZ reading this, please take the time to visit the AZ Game And Fish website and add your voice to the changing of this "Pneumatic Weapons" regulation.

I'd like to see it changed so we could at least hunt coyotes with them. Now that I think about it, I'd also like to see a new BIG BORE AIR RIFLE Category included in among all the other forum categories on this Cast Boolits site as well.

Right now I only have one .45 caliber bullet mold. It's the Lyman Devastator mold. Since I got into bullet casting to keep from having to buy my bullets, this is the cast bullet I'll be using until I can get a line on a better design for this particular setup; or until I can change out the existing barrel to a .44 caliber. I have three different molds in that caliber.

Thanks for the input.
HollowPoint

[melloairman]

I have the 909 as well as a 201 and a Jack haley 32 right now . The 909 is know to love .457 R.B. When it comes to bullets some like .454 others like .457 . Mine likes .454 . They have a very shallow rifle grove barrel and normally will not group well with a lead any harder than 7bhn . I have keep mine on R.B so far but I have bought a 160 mold to try . They can use some help in power in most cases . To get the stock off to deal with the spring you need to take the round plug out of the butt pad and deep inside you will see the 1/2 inch wide screw slot that has to be removesd . I would try and stay under 250 grains for sure at first and with bullets if it is not grouping try to resize from .454 - .457 .It is not a easy task to change the barrel on the 909 . From what you have said I would buy a .457 R.B. mold and get some pure or soft lead and go have fun Good luck Marvin

[HollowPoint]

Hi Marvin:

Thanks for the input. I've read about the "Users Manual" that comes with this rifle as being less than useful. It's good to hear from someone that at least has some experience as to how to taking it apart.

I look forward to playing around with it before I actually take it for a spin.

I've been hitting as many of the air gun forums as I can just to get a feel for what other have experienced with this particular model. As you might have guessed, there are many pros and cons.

It seems like the self-appointed experts tend to dominate the discussions but, occasionally you get some input for one or two guys that actually have hands-on experience which generally proves to be quite useful. They're the ones that make wading through pages of second, third and forth hand information worth doing.

Well, yesterday when I check the tracking number on this package, it stated that my new air gun was scheduled to be delivered today. I just checked again a little while ago and it now states that it's scheduled to be delivered some time tomorrow.

I've done a little work today but, the rest of the time has been spent waiting for the FedX man to knock at my door. The anticipation...

HollowPoint

[melloairman]

I know what you are saying . Those R.B. s are hard to beat . 6 shot group at 50 yards 2 inches or better . One other thing . The little screw that holds the cocking lever on has a bad habit of comeing lose and then the lever breaks . Take it out and either put some teflon tap on it or some medium lock tight and check it from time to time . I repeat my self r.b. r.b. .r.b that 1 in 20 shallow groved rifle barrel loves those r.b . Marvin

[beagle]

Hmmmmm! I've shot a 9mm and with the 358242 Lyman 92 grain cast that I cast up. In the .45, maybe one of the hollow base .45 bullets intended for the BP revolvers would work.

Having seen the abundance of cottontails and jacks in the SW, that sounds like a noble project./beagle

[ANeat]

This is an interesting subject, later this fall if you want to try some .452 bullets Ill get back with you. I have a decent swaging setup for .452, just about any weight and configuration can be dreamed up.

On the airgun bullets like this what do they use for lube (if they use lube??)

[HollowPoint]

ANeat:

From what I've read, little if any lube is used. I believe it's because these projectiles are traveling at such slow velocities.

I was kind of wondering about hollow base bullets as well.

It will be interesting to experiment with. I look forward to hearing from you regarding your swaged bullets.

Thanks for the reply.
HollowPoint

[melloairman]

R.B. need no lube . And the only lube I use for swaging and resizing is spray on dry lube . Remember you can not use petroleum based lubes around high pressure air . It will explode on you . Hollow base has no advantage from my testing . As a matter a fact I have lost accuracy due to the longer bullet and the slow 1 in 20 twist rate barrel . Marvin

[JIMinPHX]

Hi Hollowpoint,
I haven't messed with any of those big bore air guns yet, but I have been thinking about it. There is a shop down in Chandler called air guns of AZ that has everything you could ever possibly want in an air gun unless the caliber is above .25. That's kind of where I got stopped in the process of getting one. I don't want to buy one sight unseen via mail order, especially at the prices that they go for.

Now, having identified myself as someone that has zero actual experience with one of these things, I do have a few ideas that you may want to consider. There is an old-school boolit mold that was called the collar button. It's a fairly light weight .45 that sort of looks like an overgrown pointed air gun pellet, except that the back end is not hollow. I'll bet that if you got some of them & drilled a cavity in the back of them, they would probably work real well in that rifle you have on the way. I can do some good concentric drilling if you can get your hands on some of them to try out.

That aside, I would sort of think that any bore riding boolit with a reasonably sized bearing surface would work well if you drilled out the back end of it to form a skirt. That's just what I would expect though. I don't know that to be true.

I would very much appreciate it if you would post some pictures when you get that thing taken apart. I'd love to know what makes them tick inside, especially the fast dump valve area. the valve seems to be the place where you have the most room to make velocity improvements from what little I know about the pre-charged guns in general.

Thanks for posting here. I'll be interested in hearing how you make out.

Jim

[BCall]

The collar button might be a good idea, but I do know some guys had great success using the EPP/UG 150 gr. boolit from Big Lube. I think they bought them already cast, but the mold would be easier to get than a collar button mold I would think.

[HollowPoint]

Hi Jim and BCall:

I've been considering the bullet design you've eluded to. The reason being; it seems like ever since air guns became known to me (back when I was in elementary school) the shape of the pellets have always been like that of an hour glass.

I've wondered if a person just scaled that design up to .45 caliber size, would it still perform with the accuracy that they are known to achieve in the smaller bore sizes?

I have the bench top machinery to make and modify bullet molds but, on a bullet shaped more like an hour glass than a traditional bullet or round ball, I'd have to really think hard to come up with a way to get my mold cavities to take that shape.

It seems to me that out of necessity any such mold would have to be a nose pour type that required a hollow pointing pin to produce the hollow at the tail end of this projectile but, I'm getting ahead of myself now. I don't even have this toy in my hands yet.

Keep the suggestions coming.
HollowPoint

[scrapcan]

I too am interested in this topic and would like to own one also.

there is aother thread on this topic by Butcher45. I will see if I can find it. I think Sharpshooter is also shooting a big bore. Marlin Junky was also looking to get into the big bore airgun shooting game.

[scrapcan]

here is one thread

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ghlight=airgun

Here is another by Butcher45
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=76446

[2wheelDuke]

That sounds like quite a "toy." What does it use for a gas source? I tried looking it up online, and saw mention of them being filled by a scuba tank.

I'm interested to see your review on it.

I haven't bought an air gun other than a cheap airsoft toy since Service Merchandise decided that air guns were bad for their image and too much of a liability back in the mid 90's. They blew out their remaining stock at 50% off, and I had a few bucks saved up, so I got my mom to buy me a Sheridan Silver Streak that I never would have been able to afford otherwise.

I've come close to ordering one of those Drozd blackbird full auto BB guns, but that's alot of money for a toy with no practical use, I could start a 10/22 project for that.

[Wayne Smith]

It sure ain't casting weather here (discomfort index 110 this weekend!) but when it cools off I have the NEI copy of the collar button mold. PM me when you get to the point of actually wanting to use some. I assume you will want them soft and unlubed.

[JIMinPHX]

It sure ain't casting weather here (discomfort index 110 this weekend!)

Ole came over here last weekend & we cast boolits together on my back patio for several hours. It was probably 110 that day, maybe a little more.

[HollowPoint]

Hello again guys:

The more I read about this "Collar Button Mold" the more it's starting to look like it may be just what I'm looking for. And yes, I believe they would be cast as soft as possible.

I'm certain it would be more than enough for cottontails and coyotes; which is all I really bought this air gun for anyhow.

I cast up all the bullets I thought I'd need last year when it was a little cooler. I do remember casting last summer when it was a little hotter than the 110 degrees mentioned. It wasn't the most pleasant experience but, I'd just gotten a new bullet mold and I was dying to try it out.

Now I see that I may need to cast up some slightly different bullets for this incoming toy.

I'm kind of surprised at the attention that this thread is getting; and kind of glad as well. It's good to see that alot of us never really out-grow the kid in us when looking forward to a new toy to play with.

I just wish that darn FedX guy would show up.

2wheelDuke mentioned a scuba tank as a means of filling the air reservoir on this rifle. Since I'm just a beginner I think I'm going to do it the hard way for now. I mean, I'll be using a hand pump until I can save up the scratch for a small carbon fiber tank with all the appropriate fitting and such.

Just as a side note; I believe I'm going to sell my Encore pistol in 223 caliber to help me reach that goal. If any of you knows someone in the area interested, drop me a line. It's a 15" factory blued barrel with a Simmons pistol scope and pacmyr grip and forend. Nice little rig; practically new. I just never shoot it anymore. I think the last time I shoot it was early last year.

HollowPoint

[9.3X62AL]

In Phoenix or Indio, 110* F is almost sweater weather.

What kind of ballistics are yielded by the roundballs from the PCP rifles?