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Thread: The Bible.... Myth, Real, or Both?

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    I believe there are limits to God’s power. Otherwise a loving Father (God) would remove lethal threats (Satan) from His children (mankind). God sacrificed His Son on our behalf so we may have our sins expunged. To me, it indicates God, at least then, and possibly currently is unable to defeat Satan. But, in time, that will happen...or so it is written.

    Genesis “works” if the days are much longer periods of time. 24 hour days are unrealistic and not supported by our understanding of the universe, geology, genetics, and archeology.

    God revealed creation in a manner that was understandable to man at the time. KISS. In essence, it is not important if creation took 6 days or 6 billion years...only that He was the Creator. Early man was not prepared to understand. It would have been like explaining how a child is born to a two year old. All the two year old needs to know is that mommy and daddy love each other made made them. It is not the whole story but close enough and serves the purpose.
    What I see here is an attempt to limit God based on the limits of man. God is not limited by our tiny little minds and brains, how could he be. God is the creator of everything in the universe. I don’t think you really believe that God is unable to defeat Satan and if you do you clearly are lacking in your knowledge of the Bible. Our loving God allows each and everything that happens in the universe including “lethal threats”, evil, sin, etc... for his own plan which our minds are too small to understand. God gave us the opportunity in the beginning to live in a perfect situation but because of free will and temptation, that option disappeared. As far as there being limits to God’s power, I think it’s more of a case of you limiting God’s power in your mind for whatever reason. Clearly a God that can create the entire universe and each and every beautiful and astounding things around us i.e, animals, plants, mountains, oceans, etc... is NOT limited in any way.
    Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyDog25 View Post
    What I see here is an attempt to limit God based on the limits of man. God is not limited by our tiny little minds and brains, how could he be. God is the creator of everything in the universe. I don’t think you really believe that God is unable to defeat Satan and if you do you clearly are lacking in your knowledge of the Bible.
    Deputy, if I may ....

    Don't know how long you've followed Tim's posts but he is quite odd for someone professing to be a Christian.

    To honestly (I think) paraphrase Tim (for brevity), at various times he has told us:

    * Says God is not all knowing, not all powerful and lives in a constant struggle with Satan

    * Says man is in control of human history, not God

    * Faith in Jesus as savior is NOT the only way to Tim's version of heaven

    * His heaven is a reward for being good; thus, he believes those of other "beliefs" (i.e. , cults and "good" atheists) will go to heaven if they do enough nice things on earth

    * Tim says the Bible is only partially correct and God agrees with him when He is confused

    * Says he "knows" all this because God has (directly?) told him so



    In spite of all that, Tim hasn't specifically said but suggests he's Christian. He asks a lot of "Bible" questions worded to extract specific (and erroneous) answers but, troll like, he rarely answers his own leading questions. So, we are left to ask, is Tim honest with all the outrageously wrong things he has posted? Or, is he a secret Jehovah Witness? Or is he just another pot-stirring web troll? Who knows?!

    Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!

  3. #263
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    I haven’t followed him at all and I don’t normally quote and reply but just felt like I was led to respond. I will keep this individual in my prayers. Thanks very much for clarifying Tim’s point of view.
    Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  4. #264
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    Hello all, this is Maurizio from Rome, Italy.

    I just joined this Forum because I'm interested in reloading and adapting "cheap to shoot" cartridges to "expensive to shoot" rifles.
    I browsed the Forum Index and found "The Chapel"... interesting, I told myself. So I browsed in it and found this thread.
    Intresting… So allow me this post.

    Being born Italian, I was born, baptized and raised a Roman Catholic...naturally!
    Being close to 60... in my day and age, Sunday School was taken very seriously, and only Priests and/or Nuns were allowed to teach.
    These days, with fewer and fewer Young men entering he Clergy, seculars often teach...which led me to be asked as well.

    So I started reading the Bible a bit more in depth, and found a passage something which is often overlooked.
    The Book of Josiah is never taught in Sunday School (this side of the Atlantic, anyway) because Teachers concentrate on Genesis, a bit of Exodus, and then rush to the Gospels.
    And yet…

    IIRC, it was during the rule of King Josiah that the ancient scrolls of "THE LAW" (Deuteronomy) were found in the foundations of the Temple which the King had ordered to renew and rebuild.
    BUT nobody could understand that ancient Language, because during their stay in Babylon the People of Israel had forgotten "jewish".
    So they called on "experts" (???) to decypher it.

    And here lies problem one: the GEMATRIA of Genesis has been lost.
    What is Gematria?
    In ancient languages, there were no digits and numbers were represented by letters; Roman Numerals are a well known example, but Greeks and Israelites used the very same principle.
    So, in Gematria, a word written in Hebrew has a Mathematical meaning, and often hides a different meaning because "those in the know" can equate a word to another word with the same numerical value.

    Then there's problem two: LOST IN TRANSLATION: as time goes by, LANGUAGES CHANGE, and often feel the influence of other languages (remember the stay in Babylon? And what about the stay in Egypt?) to the point that some words or even idiomatic expressions are lost, or censured, or both.
    Example: Ask a Rabbi who is fluent in ancient Hebrew to compare his Beresit to our Genesis, even in the Septuagint; he will immediately say there are differences.
    And I'm not talking about "cats&dogs" differences, but those minute differences that will go unnoticed by the masses yet trigger the Inquisition.
    Example: During Creation, Beresit mentions "The Elohim" as a plural entity of many (Hebrew, being a Semitic Language, has singular, dual and plural) yet the Septuagint and ALL Christian Bibles only refer to ONE God.
    Example: During the wars by Abram, or the family feuds of Jacob and Esau, or Moses, or Joshua, the Hebrew and the Sseptuagint mention many "Elohim" different from YHWH, while contemporary Catholic and Pritestant Bibles only refer to "false gods"
    Example: in Genesis, when Sodom is destroyed, Lot and family flee: Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt… or simply froze in awe? Or justan idiomatic expression?
    Example: Jesus feeds a moltitude with "two loaves and three fish": gentlemen, the Apostles were fishermen, and Jesus performed this miracle by the lakeside; how do we know it wasn't an idiomatic expression to indicate "we've got some plain food, but nothing fancy"? How do we know it wasn't a plain idiomatic expression?
    OR when your wife says "it's raining cats&dogs" does she actually mean there are domestic pets cascading from the sky?

    Then there's problem three: WRONG ASSUMPTIONS and I am not only referring to what I just mentioned above, but to the wrong identification of names to specific individuals or locations in history. The Pharaoh at the time of Moses was not Ramses but Shishak, for example; and Moses did not "lead the People of Israel" but only those, of any faith, who were willing to follow him out of Goshen. Evidence is that St.Joseph led baby Jesus and Mary to Egypt… not just across the Jordan to any other city, but along caravan routes back into [safe] Egypt, where there was a community of jews larger than Jerusalem itself.
    Often we are led to believe "this or that" because it makes sense "today, in our society" yet we lack any decent knowledge of "then and there".

    Then there's problem four: St.Paul and his Letters. Truly, if we read theGospels carefully (especially St.John's) and compare those teachings to St.Paul's letters,one is often led to ask "and where did he (Paul) get this idea from?" Starting with the "original sin"...

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surculus View Post
    1st off, you have to remember that the Bible is one of the most heavily re-edited pieces of literature the world has ever known. King James was looking for a political screed to calm unruly subjects: you think the monks he hired to compile a new bible didn't know which side their bread was buttered on? The OT is pretty much all myth [those parts not devoted to record-keeping, like Deuteronomy's "begats"] to answer "where did we come from?" and provide cohesion to a semi-nomadic and frequently invaded culture. The New Testament is composed of individual gospels, and like any collection of eye-witness testimonies, most of one disagrees with another's. And let's not forget that a HUGE collection of gospels were knowingly excluded [look up the Council of Nicea somewhere in the 300s? iirc, & realize that anything that didn't support the official party line got written out of history in the interest of consolidating the nascent political hegemony of the Church...] And then of course, there's the little aspect that not *everyone* even agrees upon the divinity of the carpenter from Nazareth. So what *do* the major religions agree upon? Well, Jesus is a prophet nearly as important as their favorite misogynistic pederast to the Moslems, and when Zen Buddhists have been read the Christ's teachings they agree that he sounds like someone who has achieved satori [which is usually translated as "enlightenment."] I don't require divinity, nor do I have faith in pie in the sky in the sweet by & by: his teachings are a recipe for heaven on earth, not a ticket to some heaven we only get to see after our ticket gets punched. If more people who claim to believe in him actually lived the life he taught, there'd be a lot more people who'd listen to his message. Just sayin'.
    Hi.

    I had to repace my pages to find your post, and I have to say I agree 100%
    King James willfully omitted the Books of Maccabees from the OT because they justify the people rising against an oppressive ruler.
    According to Genesis, Israel and Ishmael both sons of Abraham, through their mothers Sara and Agar, and they both worship the same "God of Abraham"; what differs is the Revelaiton (by the Archangel Gabriel) and Christians worship the same "God of Abraham" so… you fill in the blank ________________________


    Was Joseph a "poor carpenter"? Or was he a "nàggar" (Master Carpenter) and a very pious man?
    Many ancient Kings were described as "poor and pious" but they were anything but POOR
    Remember, the Archangel Gabriel visited Mary during Joseph's long stay away from home, not just an overnighter.
    Joseph left when Mary was a virgin, he returned and she was 6 months pregnant.

    Was Jesus from a village called Nazareth OR was he made to take Nazarene vows, jus like his cousin John the Baptist?
    Because according to both Roman tax records and Jewish records "Nazareth" was a religious community in Jerusalem, not a village.

    So why was Jesus from Nazareth, if he wasn't?
    Because in Latin "Jesus the Nazarene" is "Jesus Nazarenus" and it's more convenient for the Christian Church (which wanted to detach itself from jewish clergy and control) to claim "Jesus from the village of…" instead of "Jesus the monk of…"

    It's all written, you only have to understand what you read.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpescatori View Post
    Hi. King James willfully omitted the Books of Maccabees from the OT because they justify the people rising against an oppressive ruler.
    Not that it matters very much but ...

    * King James omitted nothing. He was neither a translator nor theologian and he had no direct action in the Bible now carrying his name.

    The KJV-Westminster translators took several existing English (partial) Bible translations and completed the work of such men as Wicklift and others. Then they translated from the RRC Latin "Vulgate" because that was all they had to work with. They followed the then existing Jewish (Christian) canon - which did not include the Jewish historical (not Holy Spirit inspired) books of the Maccabees.

    The first church council was called to Nicea by Constantine in the early 300s primarily to establish the New Testament canon. They carefully examined many books. They retained what we now have and, for a variety of sound reasons, rejected all of the others. None of the choices were made for diabolical denominational (or political) considerations because at that time there were no denominations, including what finally became the Roman Church. Christians simply had no political power.

    Hundreds of years later, the then well established Roman Catholic Church, for reasons of their own, began to add some of the previously discounted books. Now the question for Christianity becomes, "Why did Catholics do that?" I have some ideas of why but I have no proof and don't wish to stir up a hornet's nest about "hatred" with Roman Catholics so I keep my thoughts to myself and leave it up to others to answer as seems good to them.
    Last edited by 1hole; 10-22-2019 at 09:01 PM.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpescatori View Post
    Hello all, this is Maurizio from Rome, Italy.

    Example: During Creation, Beresit mentions "The Elohim" as a plural entity of many (Hebrew, being a Semitic Language, has singular, dual and plural) yet the Septuagint and ALL Christian Bibles only refer to ONE God...
    Hello Maurizio, welcome to the forum.

    How many Gods are there?
    Here are some passages from the Bible that suggests there are more than one:

    (Genesis 1:26) - "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness . . . .'"
    (Genesis 3:22) - "And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil . . ."
    (Genesis 11:7) - "Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

    Kinda throws a monkey wrench in the mechanism of a single God thought doesn't it?
    Yet, later in the Bible it states there is only one God.

    (Deuteronomy 6:4) - "Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!"
    (Isaiah 43:10) - ". . . Before Me [YHWH] there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me."
    (Isaiah 44:6) - ". . . there is no God besides Me."
    (Isaiah 44:8) - ". . . And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."

    Somewhat contradictory I would say.

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    ....Kinda throws a monkey wrench in the mechanism of a single God thought doesn't it?
    Yet, later in the Bible it states there is only one God.

    (Deuteronomy 6:4) - "Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!"
    The Christian concept of "one God existing in three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)" is difficult for our simplistic human minds to wrap around. But, considered as it should be makes it easy to comprehend ... I think.

    Think of God being a single "team" of three. Each is an eternal being, each is self existing, each being all knowing and all powerful. As a team they are so totally united in power, one heart and one goal they are ONE God.

    When that old Hebrew prophet, "Deuteronome", wrote his book (6:4) and mentioned ONE God he referred to the spiritually united TEAM of three beings which constitute our one God (1 John 5:7). How and why they decided they would operate as a united team is above our pay grade, it's something we really don't need to know.
    Last edited by 1hole; 10-23-2019 at 02:02 PM.

  9. #269
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    Perhaps the point isn't that one tries to determine which parts are factually correct, accurate, or antidotal but rather that one spend that time in considering what is the importance of this or that passage to my understanding of the guidance it provides.

    I don't know if Job is a factual and accurate transcription of conversation between the devil and god, or the dialog between Job and others. What I do know is it is a very early introduction to the idea of bad things happening for reasons beyond our understanding, that these bad things can happen to good people for reasons other than as punishment from god for transgressions.

    My own guess is the reason those passages of Job are part of the bible is because they introduce those concepts for our consideration and contemplation. Not to provide a factual reporting of conversations and events.

    The earliest copies of the bible don't have the whole bit about "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" where it is found in later versions however it is there now and can provide valuable instruction to living ones faith. Accurate? Not accurate? Both not as relevant to my way of thinking as is it an important idea for mankind to know.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

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  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    Hello Maurizio, welcome to the forum.

    How many Gods are there?
    Here are some passages from the Bible that suggests there are more than one:

    (Genesis 1:26) - "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness . . . .'"
    (Genesis 3:22) - "And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil . . ."
    (Genesis 11:7) - "Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

    Kinda throws a monkey wrench in the mechanism of a single God thought doesn't it?
    Yet, later in the Bible it states there is only one God.

    (Deuteronomy 6:4) - "Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!"
    (Isaiah 43:10) - ". . . Before Me [YHWH] there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me."
    (Isaiah 44:6) - ". . . there is no God besides Me."
    (Isaiah 44:8) - ". . . And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."

    Somewhat contradictory I would say.
    The Bible's progressive revelation shows that three people make up God. Each has a different role and relationship to the others. Each person has all the attributes of God, but is a separate individual.

    This is a pretty simple concept that gets confused by our use of the word "God." Normally when a person says God, they are referring the God the Father. But in the Bible this is not always the case. "God" is used to refer to any individual in the Trinity or all three at once (a.k.a, the Godhead).

    The Bible does not say that God is singular in person. It actually says the opposite as you have pointed out. The biblical proclamation that God is "one" was made in direct contrast to the gods of the heathens. These people had a god for war, a god for rain, a god for fertility, etc. The heathen gods also worked against one another. The God of the Bible controls all things and is singular in purpose. There is no disagreement in the Godhead: "God is one."

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    This is a pretty simple concept that gets confused by our use of the word "God." Normally when a person says God, they are referring the God the Father. But in the Bible this is not always the case. "God" is used to refer to any individual in the Trinity or all three at once (a.k.a, the Godhead).
    There is (not) only YHWH in the Old Testament. Indeed, Genesis and Deuteronomy as a whole are witness to the many Elohim who lived and governed, each their own people.
    If you get an old (i.e. before WW2) Bible, Genesis alone will mention Elohim, El Shaddai, YHWH, but also the Elohim which were worshipped in cities like Salem or Gomorrah.
    Indeed… Melkizedek, Priest-King of Salem, worshipped El Shaddai, and Elohei who is not YHWH; another example, Genesis 31:53:
    "53 The God of Abraham and the God of Nahor [Elohei Nahor], the God of their father, judge between us."
    So we have YHWH, who is "the one and only real God", coming to terms with a false idol over a truce between Isaac and his father-in-law Laban, son of Nahor.
    OR
    Abraham and his kind served YHWH, and Nahor and his kind served another Elohei.

    The Bible does not say that God is singular in person. It actually says the opposite as you have pointed out. The biblical proclamation that God is "one" was made in direct contrast to the gods of the heathens. These people had a god for war, a god for rain, a god for fertility, etc. The heathen gods also worked against one another.
    Quite the contrary. YHWH is a god of war. He appears to Abraham in Gen.12, and rather than giving him a land to call his own, leads him to a steppe (semi-humid desert) where he and his kind are destined to a life of nomadism, having to flee to Egypt at least twice because of drought and famine, once when Abram isyoung, once when Jacob is old and Joseph is Governonr of Goshen. So how could the Creator of Heaven and Earth lead a man to the "Promised Land" and not even have control over the weather?
    OR
    YHWH is a god of war, and can only keep his promise through war.
    See Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, but also Samuel and Kings.
    Not once did he send an angel or appear in a dream to convince "the other guy" that "his guy" was a better option; no, he waged war and ethnic cleansing.

    The God of the Bible controls all things and is singular in purpose. There is no disagreement in the Godhead: "God is one."
    Again:
    1- (many) Elohim contribute to Creation (although the original Hebrew for "Create" barà means "shape" or "mould", there is no such concept nor word in Hebrew to indicate "create out of nothing")
    2- El Shaddai "The Most High" is "the ruler of all Elohim" from Creation down to Melkizedech;
    3- Genesis concentrates on YHWH, and the other Elohim, although sometimes mentioned, are gradually censored not by the Jews nor by the Septuagint, but by the catholic copyists of early Christianity
    4- What are generally taught to be "false gods" were actually the names of the other Elohim as found in Canaanite, Egyptian, Sumerian or Babylonian religious literature; indeed, there is a stelae (stone pillar with inscription) in Lebanon, written in Phoenician, which reads "Ashteroth greets YHWH and his Asherah", which means a number of things:
    a. That was the "religious boundary" where the Priests of one would give way to the Priests of the other,
    b. the two peoples acknowledged the existence of both Ashteroth and YHWH ,
    c. YHWH had a "mate" or female peer known as Asherah.
    Note: this is not heretical: in ancient times ALL gods formed amale+female couple, where to each his/her own temples, priests and responsibilities
    Note: this may be the explanation why wise King Solomon allowed fr the creation of chapels to Ashteroth , Asherah and other female deities in the copurtyard of the Temple.

    As for the Trinity:
    1. God is the Father, OK
    2. Jesus is the Son, OK
    … mumble mumble … please, where is the feminine component in the Trinity?
    Because if you read carefully and annotate with the attention of a Lt. Colombo… you'll notice that what "the Angel of the Lord" did in the Old Testament, generally ArchAngel Gabriel (up to and including Announciation) is then carried out by a difficult to fathom "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost" (i.e. Pentecost).
    ...mumble mumble…
    So either the Holy Ghost is actually the ArchAngel Gabriel,
    OR
    the Holy Ghost is actually Asherah.

    Kinda shocking, if you give it a thought...

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpescatori View Post
    There is (not) only YHWH in the Old Testament. Indeed, Genesis and Deuteronomy as a whole are witness to the many Elohim who lived and governed, each their own people.
    If you get an old (i.e. before WW2) Bible, Genesis alone will mention Elohim, El Shaddai, YHWH, but also the Elohim which were worshipped in cities like Salem or Gomorrah.
    Indeed… Melkizedek, Priest-King of Salem, worshipped El Shaddai, and Elohei who is not YHWH; another example, Genesis 31:53:
    "53 The God of Abraham and the God of Nahor [Elohei Nahor], the God of their father, judge between us."
    So we have YHWH, who is "the one and only real God", coming to terms with a false idol over a truce between Isaac and his father-in-law Laban, son of Nahor.
    OR
    Abraham and his kind served YHWH, and Nahor and his kind served another Elohei.


    Quite the contrary. YHWH is a god of war. He appears to Abraham in Gen.12, and rather than giving him a land to call his own, leads him to a steppe (semi-humid desert) where he and his kind are destined to a life of nomadism, having to flee to Egypt at least twice because of drought and famine, once when Abram isyoung, once when Jacob is old and Joseph is Governonr of Goshen. So how could the Creator of Heaven and Earth lead a man to the "Promised Land" and not even have control over the weather?
    OR
    YHWH is a god of war, and can only keep his promise through war.
    See Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, but also Samuel and Kings.
    Not once did he send an angel or appear in a dream to convince "the other guy" that "his guy" was a better option; no, he waged war and ethnic cleansing.


    Again:
    1- (many) Elohim contribute to Creation (although the original Hebrew for "Create" barà means "shape" or "mould", there is no such concept nor word in Hebrew to indicate "create out of nothing")
    2- El Shaddai "The Most High" is "the ruler of all Elohim" from Creation down to Melkizedech;
    3- Genesis concentrates on YHWH, and the other Elohim, although sometimes mentioned, are gradually censored not by the Jews nor by the Septuagint, but by the catholic copyists of early Christianity
    4- What are generally taught to be "false gods" were actually the names of the other Elohim as found in Canaanite, Egyptian, Sumerian or Babylonian religious literature; indeed, there is a stelae (stone pillar with inscription) in Lebanon, written in Phoenician, which reads "Ashteroth greets YHWH and his Asherah", which means a number of things:
    a. That was the "religious boundary" where the Priests of one would give way to the Priests of the other,
    b. the two peoples acknowledged the existence of both Ashteroth and YHWH ,
    c. YHWH had a "mate" or female peer known as Asherah.
    Note: this is not heretical: in ancient times ALL gods formed amale+female couple, where to each his/her own temples, priests and responsibilities
    Note: this may be the explanation why wise King Solomon allowed fr the creation of chapels to Ashteroth , Asherah and other female deities in the copurtyard of the Temple.

    As for the Trinity:
    1. God is the Father, OK
    2. Jesus is the Son, OK
    … mumble mumble … please, where is the feminine component in the Trinity?
    Because if you read carefully and annotate with the attention of a Lt. Colombo… you'll notice that what "the Angel of the Lord" did in the Old Testament, generally ArchAngel Gabriel (up to and including Announciation) is then carried out by a difficult to fathom "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost" (i.e. Pentecost).
    ...mumble mumble…
    So either the Holy Ghost is actually the ArchAngel Gabriel,
    OR
    the Holy Ghost is actually Asherah.

    Kinda shocking, if you give it a thought...
    I have read your posts. The ideas within them are those of secular Bible scholars (i.e., unbelievers) and are so at odds with any Christian or Jewish theology they don't warrant a dialog on this forum; by me anyway.

    And yes, there are counterpoints and answers to each issue you posted above. I am sure you know that and what they are. But I doubt that matters to you. Are you here to entertain yourself and undermine the faith of others'?

    This section of the forum is supposed to be an extension of the Chapel but has been almost taken over in the last few months by scoffers with axes to grind.
    Last edited by Ickisrulz; 10-24-2019 at 01:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Deputy, if I may ....

    Don't know how long you've followed Tim's posts but he is quite odd for someone professing to be a Christian.

    To honestly (I think) paraphrase Tim (for brevity), at various times he has told us:

    * Says God is not all knowing, not all powerful and lives in a constant struggle with Satan

    * Says man is in control of human history, not God

    * Faith in Jesus as savior is NOT the only way to Tim's version of heaven

    * His heaven is a reward for being good; thus, he believes those of other "beliefs" (i.e. , cults and "good" atheists) will go to heaven if they do enough nice things on earth

    * Tim says the Bible is only partially correct and God agrees with him when He is confused

    * Says he "knows" all this because God has (directly?) told him so



    In spite of all that, Tim hasn't specifically said but suggests he's Christian. He asks a lot of "Bible" questions worded to extract specific (and erroneous) answers but, troll like, he rarely answers his own leading questions. So, we are left to ask, is Tim honest with all the outrageously wrong things he has posted? Or, is he a secret Jehovah Witness? Or is he just another pot-stirring web troll? Who knows?!

    Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!
    How could you imagine I am a Christian. While I respect Jesus as a great teacher and martyr I do not believe he is God and our Lord and Savior. I have said that may times in many posts.

    I am not a Jehovah Witness and I do not belong to any Chruch and I do not follow any religion. I think no more than 8 of the ten commandments are correct. I believe that there is but one God, the creator of the heavens including the Earth. Philosophically I am probably closest to Theists. I am not a Deist because I will not rule out God acting in the present. Being a Theist really only means I believe in God.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    How could you imagine I am a Christian. While I respect Jesus as a great teacher and martyr I do not believe he is God and our Lord and Savior. I have said that may times in many posts.
    Seems I owe a couple of apologies.

    First, sorry that I offended you in my thought you might be some sort of Christian. But, I haven't read many of your posts and, since you have made several references to scripture, I felt you might, at some level, consider yourself a Christian and gave you the benefit of any doubt; that was obviously a mistake. I was wrong and accept your correction, I apologise and withdraw the suggestion.

    Several of your stated beliefs are straight out of J.W. pamphlets. I also apologise to them for thinking you might be one.

    ... I think no more than 8 of the ten commandments are correct.
    What? ! YOU THINK "no more than 8 of the Ten Commandments are correct"? Goodness, what a THINKer! I won't ask which you THINK may be right or why/how you came to your strange conclusions.

    I will close by saying your half-good perception of Jesus is not unique but the only way you could possibly be right is either he was a highly skilled mad-man or the world's most successful liar; neither is good. Maybe you should do a bit more thinking?
    Last edited by 1hole; 10-26-2019 at 06:19 PM.

  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    I have read your posts. The ideas within them are those of secular Bible scholars (i.e., unbelievers) and are so at odds with any Christian or Jewish theology they don't warrant a dialog on this forum; by me anyway.

    And yes, there are counterpoints and answers to each issue you posted above. I am sure you know that and what they are. But I doubt that matters to you. Are you here to entertain yourself and undermine the faith of others'?

    This section of the forum is supposed to be an extension of the Chapel but has been almost taken over in the last few months by scoffers with axes to grind.
    I have no axe, no grinder, and speak in low and soft tones.

    I believe that if one puts everything in the hands of "Faith", he/she is the prime target of television/circus preachers.

    Knowing the facts, remembering what was on page 17 when you are at page 43 means you cannot be taken by the hand and walked around like a toddler - quite the contrary.

    How many times did the Pharisees try to put Jesus and the Apostles in difficulty with awkward questions? How was the answer? It was Always a learned answer, never a "have faith".

    Off the cuff, how many animals did Noah lead into the Ark, without having to look it up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpescatori View Post
    I have no axe, no grinder, and speak in low and soft tones.

    I believe that if one puts everything in the hands of "Faith", he/she is the prime target of television/circus preachers.

    Knowing the facts, remembering what was on page 17 when you are at page 43 means you cannot be taken by the hand and walked around like a toddler - quite the contrary.

    How many times did the Pharisees try to put Jesus and the Apostles in difficulty with awkward questions? How was the answer? It was Always a learned answer, never a "have faith".

    Off the cuff, how many animals did Noah lead into the Ark, without having to look it up?
    noah did not lead any animals to or on the ark, God brought them

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    It is amazing to me how some folks twist and contort their thinking in order to believe that Christ was NOT the savior, whom He claimed to be. It's also amazing how some folks twist and contort the scriptures to conform to their concepts and ideas, rather than merely taking His words at face value. If He is indeed the Son of God, as He claimed, then he would NEVER - never Never NEVER! - deliberately try to confuse us, or hide His true manings. A loving and caring God would set forth His words in as straight and understandable a manner as possible, wouldn't he? And yet, how often we hear of folks trying to interpret His words in a manner so as to create confusion and doubt. And mostly, all because they can't or won't accept the simple veracity of His words! What a willful and insolent lot we can be sometimes!!!

    90+% of His words are very simple and straightforward. It's our wills that are crooked and twisted - NOT His words! Wouldn't a good and benevolent God put forth His words in a manner that even those who are not mental giants could understand. How else could He do that other than to speak plainly, simply and directly to the issues of concern to him?

    We so often overthink the scriptures! It just seems to be part of our natural psyches. But it's not a functional part of our minds. Evil indeed DOES exist in this world, and it can take many forms. Anything that detracts or diminishes the good within us is, by definition, evil. It doesn't matter how much we might love it, and want it to continue. All that matters is what things ARE, in reality. Our imaginations CAN get us in a lot of trouble, some of it that we can never get out of. The wise are very circumspect about these matters. The foolish ..... well, they do what the foolish have always done. God bless us all, and God bless the USA.

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    Amen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    It is amazing to me how some folks twist and contort their thinking in order to believe that Christ was NOT the savior, whom He claimed to be. It's also amazing how some folks twist and contort the scriptures to conform to their concepts and ideas, rather than merely taking His words at face value. If He is indeed the Son of God, as He claimed, then he would NEVER - never Never NEVER! - deliberately try to confuse us, or hide His true manings. A loving and caring God would set forth His words in as straight and understandable a manner as possible, wouldn't he? And yet, how often we hear of folks trying to interpret His words in a manner so as to create confusion and doubt. And mostly, all because they can't or won't accept the simple veracity of His words! What a willful and insolent lot we can be sometimes!!!

    90+% of His words are very simple and straightforward. It's our wills that are crooked and twisted - NOT His words! Wouldn't a good and benevolent God put forth His words in a manner that even those who are not mental giants could understand. How else could He do that other than to speak plainly, simply and directly to the issues of concern to him?

    We so often overthink the scriptures! It just seems to be part of our natural psyches. But it's not a functional part of our minds. Evil indeed DOES exist in this world, and it can take many forms. Anything that detracts or diminishes the good within us is, by definition, evil. It doesn't matter how much we might love it, and want it to continue. All that matters is what things ARE, in reality. Our imaginations CAN get us in a lot of trouble, some of it that we can never get out of. The wise are very circumspect about these matters. The foolish ..... well, they do what the foolish have always done. God bless us all, and God bless the USA.
    What you say makes sense to me, but, in my mind, it's not that simple.
    Good luck to the truth seeker who reads the Bible to find out the "meaning of life' and what God is all about.

    Taking the literal word from the Bible can create confusion to the new seeker.
    For example: "Thou shalt not kill"
    Well, that's pretty straightforward. One could take the literal words and be very confused.
    I think we all pretty much understand the meaning of that to be Thou shalt not murder.

    That's just one example. The Bible has passages that are confusing unfortunately.
    Even the apostles did not understand what Jesus was saying in some cases.
    What is written and what it means can be two different things.

    For better understanding about what the Bible says and what it means has sparked all kinds of books to be written and Bible Study classes to be given for those who are searching for a better understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    How could you imagine I am a Christian. While I respect Jesus as a great teacher and martyr I do not believe he is God and our Lord and Savior. I have said that may times in many posts.

    I am not a Jehovah Witness and I do not belong to any Chruch and I do not follow any religion. I think no more than 8 of the ten commandments are correct. I believe that there is but one God, the creator of the heavens including the Earth. Philosophically I am probably closest to Theists. I am not a Deist because I will not rule out God acting in the present. Being a Theist really only means I believe in God.

    Tim
    I can also relate to a lot of what you have said. I believe in a creator a supreme being. I am quite bewildered by the bible. To me not a lot of it makes sense. It can be interpreted different ways again my opinion. Another thing... a lot of churches have started simply because people didn't like what was being taught. There are a few religions that are a result of a split off from the Catholic church. Lutheran is one of them and probably the Church of England another. It would seem that when we don't wish to believe what is being taught someone starts yet another church. Ever notice how every single denomination says "They are the One True Church?" Like I have mentioned before on this forum I was raised Catholic and I guess you would say lost my faith. Recently before we moved I was going to a Christian church. When I got into a conversation with a paster at a Baptist church I was told the Christian church wasn't correct and I was making a mistake by going there. I marvel at some of you with unquestioning faith. I guess I am more scientific and need more proof call it lack of faith. My whole life religion has been centered around the almighty dollar. You gotta give that 10% off the top now. I'm sorry but there is so much that is illogical in my mind about the Bible. As I look at religion as a whole I ask myself if it is no more than a means to control behavior. Makes sense to me. Put the fear of a place called hell in someones mind and most will behave correctly.

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