Perspective from athiests/agnostics

[UKShootist]

Then the Birkenhead Rules wrongly place women and children above you?

Absolutely not! Everybody dies. If push came to shove I would prefer (and hope to have the courage) to give the opportunity of life to a woman and/or child, especially a child, than to die of old age carrying the memory of others that I could have saved. A fact often ignored is that such sentiments are part of keeping the human race alive.

[UKShootist]

So you owe your best in raising your own kids? I can agree with that.

What moral duty do you have to strangers’ wives and children?

To do them no harm and to offer help when necessary. It makes for a more comfortable society.

It is all the more ironic on this forum that such sentiments and issues can be seen in ape colonies, documented by scientists engaged in detailed observations for many years. This has been rejected by some here who know nothing of this research but who's religious bias tells them that such observations must just be misinterpreted coincidence.

[PerpetualStudent]

UK Shootist I think you are being disingenuous. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

The second definition from Merriam Webster is
"2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion
a celebrity worshipped by her fans"

[Blackwater]

You are really determined to declare that everyone worships.
Only a practicing worshiper would be so obsessed as to ascribe worship to everyone else.
I know no one that worships anything unless worshiping a can of beer counts.
And PS I don't drink - unlike a lot of Christians...
The people I know get up and go to work, eat, sleep, fish, hunt, mow the grass and do all the things in their life without significant contemplation. In fact it appears the most deranged among the population are those that spend an inordinate amount of time contemplating the color of their skin.
I don't really think your readings and interpretation of scripture mean a thing. Just because you have wrapped your life around the Bible does not mean the rest of us have. It is typical of your kind to assume that your worshipers view of the world applies to how everyone should think - but it doesn't.

Everyone DOES indeed worship something or some idea of something. What that thing is, depends on the individual, and what they choose to declare the main focus of their lives. One can worship beauty, sex, one's own ego, or all sorts of things, but what we focus our lives' efforts on is what we "worship." You see only one meaning for the word, but it applies elsewhere as well, and YOU cannot declare it to mean only one thing. That's self-obsession in the utmost! If your ego is so large as to allow you to be the arbiter of all things, semantic and otherwise, many of us have failed to get that memo, and do our own thinking for ourselves, and do not need the rantings of a self-obsessed egotist for any purpose whatsoever. Not trying to be mean, here; just accurate.

[Blackwater]

UK, your nest to last post makes me wonder if what you said is absolutely true. After all, you're not facing death right now, and my experience is that most folks can make statements about their own death, but when it comes, they often backpedal, and recant some of what they've said prior to that moment. But I'll take you at face value. You seem to enjoy calm, and cerebral discussions, but only in a theoretical sense. Their reality is usually much harder and more complex to deal with. But everybody has to make up their own minds about these type things. God be with you, my friend.

[T_McD]

It seems to be hardwired into humans. Would you refuse to try and rescue a drowning child at risk of your own life by doing so simply because there was a danger to yourself? Whatever the reality, the idea is detestable.

That I do not 'believe' in any higher power does. not mean I deny the possibility. I don't know is all. As for mankind being the most intelligent life form, that is a horrifying thought in collective terms although a possibility in individuals and inevitable to any self respecting solipsist. But, apropos the idea of a 'higher' life form, all I can say is that if this world was God's exam paper and I was marking itI would have to say "Could do better!" so maybe.

the hardwired things that make us human is essentially what I regard as truth and what I strive toward. I too have a big ??? when it comes to a higher power.

I would suggest that 'getting past semantics' is the problem and not the solution.

To me semantics are just the inevitable miscommunications that occur due to differing experiences. Twisting words around is indeed annoying but so far black Jaque and I have managed to have a meaningful discussion.

[T_McD]

Everyone DOES indeed worship something or some idea of something. What that thing is, depends on the individual, and what they choose to declare the main focus of their lives. One can worship beauty, sex, one's own ego, or all sorts of things, but what we focus our lives' efforts on is what we "worship." You see only one meaning for the word, but it applies elsewhere as well, and YOU cannot declare it to mean only one thing. That's self-obsession in the utmost! If your ego is so large as to allow you to be the arbiter of all things, semantic and otherwise, many of us have failed to get that memo, and do our own thinking for ourselves, and do not need the rantings of a self-obsessed egotist for any purpose whatsoever. Not trying to be mean, here; just accurate.

If it means more than one thing, grab a thesaurus and pick a different word. You are pot stirring, not adding anything meaningful. He is not alone in viewing worship as the unsubstantiated fawning of a feeble mind (my words). It most definitely does not have a positive connotation for many folks.

[T_McD]

To do them no harm and to offer help when necessary. It makes for a more comfortable society.

It is all the more ironic on this forum that such sentiments and issues can be seen in ape colonies, documented by scientists engaged in detailed observations for many years. This has been rejected by some here who know nothing of this research but who's religious bias tells them that such observations must just be misinterpreted coincidence.

Good, it is as I assumed: you are bound by your morals/duty. Some seem content to dicker about the origin of said morals rather than realize they are an intuitive thing that we all share, regardless of religious persuasion.

Now I will disagree somewhat with what I will call altruism displayed in nature (humans included). The argument can be made that altruism always has a benefit for the organism or at least the species overall. As you have said, “a comfortable society” is a selfish reason for chivalry as you are a member of said society.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I was under the impression that it was just good iternet ettiquette that the person who begins a thread is the one who chooses which definition of a word shall be used. And I thought it was just expected that everyone just stuck with it for the remainder of the thread.

Anyone who has ever picked up a dictionary should know that words often have several meanings.

[T_McD]

I was under the impression that it was just good iternet ettiquette that the person who begins a thread is the one who chooses which definition of a word shall be used. And I thought it was just expected that everyone just stuck with it for the remainder of the thread.

Anyone who has ever picked up a dictionary should know that words often have several meanings.

That’s true and why I have attempted to use it, however many times you supplemented what you meant so I could understand. Blackwater seems incapable or unwilling to do so.

[UKShootist]

UK, your nest to last post makes me wonder if what you said is absolutely true. After all, you're not facing death right now, and my experience is that most folks can make statements about their own death, but when it comes, they often backpedal, and recant some of what they've said prior to that moment. But I'll take you at face value. You seem to enjoy calm, and cerebral discussions, but only in a theoretical sense. Their reality is usually much harder and more complex to deal with. But everybody has to make up their own minds about these type things. God be with you, my friend.

Indeed I made a bold statement (Bold talk for a two eyed fat man!) but I also expressed the hope for the courage to back it up if the need arose. Only the moment would tell what would happen. I will say that death is familiar companion. When my time comes, assuming that I have the time to reflect upon it, my main feeling will be one of annoyance, most likely because the weather forecast for tomorrow was excellent for a motorcycle ride or some such trivial reason. Again, if, for instance, trying to rescue a drowning child in circumstances where my death would be utterly certain but the rescue much less than certain I may well decide against it, who knows?

Another consideration is that in my near 70 years of life I have weathered much in the near death experiences of myself and the death of quite a few others, some very close to me. I have given over 50 years of my life to the service of my country and it's people (or quite a few of them at any rate) I just hope I can have the moral strength to do the right thing when required. That hope may be tempered by the luck of not having time to sit and think about it. As a new adherent to the stoic philosophy I even have my Memento Mori reminder nearby. Always something to ponder upon when you ride motorcycles. And thank you for the spirit of your blessing.

[UKShootist]

He is not alone in viewing worship as the unsubstantiated fawning of a feeble mind (my words). It most definitely does not have a positive connotation for many folks.

I think that is a touch strong, but I certainly find the term' worship' far from positive and the word 'fawning' does seem to fit well. Not necessarily from a feeble mind and many believers have a strong mind (which doesn't not automatically make them right).

[Thundarstick]

Side track

"Always something to ponder upon when you ride motorcycles."

It does seem that death is always riding pillion, doesn't it? Yesterday I had my first experience of a driver crossing three lanes of traffic at 65mph to fill the space I was already occupying!

[T_McD]

I think that is a touch strong, but I certainly find the term' worship' far from positive and the word 'fawning' does seem to fit well. Not necessarily from a feeble mind and many believers have a strong mind (which doesn't not automatically make them right).

I will agree to that.

[exile]

One of the things you notice if you read the Old Testament is that there is no prohibition against being an atheist, in other words, against worshipping nothing. That is because our heavenly Father knows that such a person has never been born. We all worship something.

In fact, in my opinion, we each have a simple choice, we can worship Self or we can worship Jesus Christ.

Now, you might be saying, "Wait a minute, are you saying that if I'm not a Christian I worship myself?" No, that's not really what I'm saying.

What I am saying is that each of us, regardless of whether we are Christians or not, are faced with a daily choice, to worship self or to worship Jesus Christ.

Some of the most avowed atheists I have ever encountered have also been some of the most self-absorbed people I have met.

"But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption."

Hebrews 9:11-12 (E.S.V.)

[T_McD]

In fact, in my opinion, we each have a simple choice, we can worship Self or we can worship Jesus Christ.

this is the false dichotomy that so many “believers” create and so many of us “pagans” refuse to tolerate. Just because I disagree with your choice in deity does not mean I think myself a deity

Some of the most avowed atheists I have ever encountered have also been some of the most self-absorbed people I have met.

The same could easily be said of Christians, hence why personal experience is not useful.

Also, using scripture to validate scripture is a bit disingenuous.

[dtknowles]

In fact, in my opinion, we each have a simple choice, we can worship Self or we can worship Jesus Christ.



What I am saying is that each of us, regardless of whether we are Christians or not, are faced with a daily choice, to worship self or to worship Jesus Christ.



)

The binary choice you suggest is not the only options.

One can worship God the creator of the Universe and believe that Jesus was just a wise man.

One can worship Gaia and believe there is no other God or worship Gaia and believe the higher God does not wish to be worshipped.

Tim

[exile]

"Come, everyone who thirsts,
come to the waters,
and he who has no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without price.
Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread,
and your labor for that which does not satisfy?
Listen diligently to me, and eat what is good,
and delight yourselves in rich food.
Incline your ear, and come to me;
hear, that your soul may live;
and I will make with you an everlasting covenant,
my steadfast, sure love for David."

Isaiah 55:1-3 (E.S.V.)


"I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture."

John 10:9 (E.S.V)

"For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:40 (E.S.V.)

[exile]

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I must take issue with the idea that "everybody dies."

God, who is an eternal being, created us, His children, in His image, as eternal beings as well. I believe that we will be resurrected, not only in spirit, but bodily as well, on the Last Day.


(Now I've got to go find a copy of 'Guess Whose Coming to Dinner", and watch it again.)

exile

[UKShootist]

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I must take issue with the idea that "everybody dies."

God, who is an eternal being, created us, His children, in His image, as eternal beings as well. I believe that we will be resurrected, not only in spirit, but bodily as well, on the Last Day.


(Now I've got to go find a copy of 'Guess Whose Coming to Dinner", and watch it again.)

exile

A wonderful opportunity to split hairs there. For a start, you have to die in order to be resurrected. But that is not the essence of the debate. You, understandably, state your belief as fact but to me it is not. And being resurrected in body? Would that be my body when it was at it's best or this aged wreck I'm in now?