a military commanders take on the .223 platform..

[Multigunner]

Theres an old Twilight Zone episode about a guy showing off his fall out shelter to his neighbors, and of course when an alert comes on the radio they end up ripping the door off that shelter trying to get in.

As for bullet cores melting. A friend and I were test firing the old 55 grain FMJ at targets placed behind a stump. To see if the bullets were stopped or deflected.
A bullet passed through about three inches of wood before reaching the target a couple of feet behind the stump.

The empty jacket struck the cardboard sideways barely penetrating the surface. Not sure if it even passed through the cardboard. The core was turned into tiny droplets smaller than rat shot that peppered the paper around the indentation made by the jacket.
I remember my friend saying that it would not have even passed through a field jacket.

PS
Friction of the bullet passing through the bore heats up the core. If the bullet is not well constructed the jacket may sperate but the core remains hot for some distance so heat of compression when striking the target may be added to the heat of bore friction.

[Mauser 98K]

I'm done talking to these imbeciles about the SHTF stuff, no imagination and at just here for the sake of arguing their own opinions like they prove something. But to answer the scope question. I never said I was going to be running around sniping people for the hell of it. Stop assuming and stop putting things that don't belong in the conversation. It was all about having more range than the other guy, not about just killing indiscriminately from long range. I do not know how the conversation ended up as such except for some butthurt individuals who misunderstood the point and jumped to conclusions.

But a looter is usually an individual or group of idiots who smash in windows, attack the owner, and steal the stuff that belongs to the victim.. They do not have to shout they are the baddies or wear uniforms to be known. If I see an idiot or group of idiots dragging a owner out in the streets then hell yes I will send them to Jesus. anyone who calls themselves Americans would and should protect those who cannot protect themselves. But in a SHTF situation,within a few months most of the idiots would have killed each other off, would have been killed off, or will have starved, so those first couple of months are the most critical and where you try to blend into the background till the machine gun joes are gone.. But I don't want to hear another word from these self proclaimed experts about how everyone else is wrong because they say so..

Now let's get back to a civilized conversation that was taking place b4 the survival experts ruined it.

[Traffer]

So what is the berm made of? Are you shooting into a berm in Hawaii that is molten lava? Then MAYBE I could imagine the lead melting out at impact.

[Thundarstick]

but i know this post is going to stir up a lot of feelings in people who think the .223 is the end all of calibers. im not here to poop on anyone choice of calibers, nor am i here to poop on the AR platform. if i was given an AR-10 id be a happy camper. im just pointing out the serious limitation to the AR chambered in .223 as a killing round for a SHTF situation. the limitations have been proven in warfare and are well documented.. now if your AO is all wooded area and MOUT where you are within 200m then the .223 would probably shine, as that is what it was intended for when it was adopted during Vietnam. but if your AO has mountainous terrain or ranges greater than 200m, something with more poop downrange should be taken into consideration.


It seems you answered your own question on the first post. If you pick your weapon according to your needs, is all good. You started the SHTF stuff on the first page, what ever!

Personally, I'm a 6.5 Grendel fan boy and have more than one. The reality though is that a 5.56 will handle better than 90% of the things I would find myself needing to shoot. I just don't see where anyone can compare military need vs civilian needs, and if we find ourselves in a free for all lawless land, I bet we'll be glad for anything that shoots! If you get to pick, then pick what YOU need for the situation. Personally, I've got more than one rifle, and I'd bet you do to.

[Mauser 98K]

6.5 is a good round.. it's flat shooting and good range. and im not saying that the 5.56 is garbage either. for what it was intended for it is fine. i was just going by what the guy in the article was talking about, that after 200m-300m it is something to be left desired on rough and hilly terrain. but it is true (more or less) that most people would probably never shoot past 100m in a SHTF situation, as it will most likely be against a looter trying to break into your house or garage in the middle of the night or the idiot who comes up to you and tries to mug you. for that the 5.56 would be great, but so would a 9mm and 45ACP. i just like to keep my options open for if i have to, if the situation arises, shoot further.. but that is what i was trying to get at. i might not have said it that clearly, but that is what i was getting at.

[303Guy]

So what is the berm made of? Are you shooting into a berm in Hawaii that is molten lava? Then MAYBE I could imagine the lead melting out at impact.

It's a soil with small spherules of weathered rock. It has a name but it eludes me. Anyway, it's dry and stops bullets pretty quickly. And that's the point - stopping the bullet quickly converts its kinetic energy into heat energy. Fragments of bullet striking steel plate at an angle can be above red hot and will start fires. That's kinetic energy converted into heat energy.

For most metals, upwards of 90% of the energy dissipated during rapid plastic deformation is manifested as heat (Rogers 1979, Yildirim and others 2011), which is maintained within the bullet fragments for some period of time after impact.

laboratory studies of plastic deformation heating at less than ballistic velocities have yielded temperature rises exceeding 350 °C (Hartley and others 1986)

Just remember that heat cannot be transferred instantaneously. It just doesn't happen so shooting into molten lava will not melt lead. In fact, it will cushion the impact with a splash and the bullet will come to a halt still fairly cool. Then heat will transfer into the core by conduction and melt the lead core. Impact heating is virtually instantaneous.

Anyway, we are a bit off topic so getting back to the 5.56 NATO. What ammunition would folks be using? I would use soft points and I know the effective range is greatly increased on smaller critters.

[Lloyd Smale]

shoot some cast at steel plates. My 4570 is a good example. I can shoot pure lead bullets with 3 grains of bullseye and pick up flattened lead pieces. Shoot them at 1500 fps and you get dust. WHY? because your shooting them faster then the lead can hold together at. Jacketed bullet shed there jacket because its not bonded to the lead. Two dissimilar metals that expand at different rates. Even that said ball bullets do a commendable job of staying together. Like a previous poster said if the lead was molten it would splatter when it hit steel. How do you explain a 223 55 grain bullet making a perfect hole through 1/4 in steel plate. Is it so hot its melting its way through?? If a bullet is truly over 600 degrees (what it would take minimum to melt the lead) wouldn't it show signs of cauterizing a wound channel? Youd think minimum that youd see signs of it with a soft nose jacketed bullet that shed some of its nose. Wouldn't you also see something as fast and hot as a 257 wby shedding its core in flight? :Surely burning 3 times more powder and traveling a 1000 fps faster the core wouldnt have a chance in something like a 257 or 220 swift. Lead is heavier then steel and the melted nose would keep going and the copper jacket would be laying on the ground. Remember too that a bullet is spinning very fast as it goes to the target so would centrifugal force throw the melted lead out before the bullet arrived? How would we get nicely mushroomed bullets recovered out of animals. does the lead melt and come back together when it hits flesh? this is all so silly!

[Lloyd Smale]

most people I know and that's about 90 percent of the hunters ive had experience with around here couldnt place a kill shot on a man past a 100 yards anyway and VERY few could at 200 and that's with a good rest. Bottom line is in a shtf situation youd be smart to let someone keep on walking at 200 yards or more anyway rather then start shooting and drawing attention to yourself. Your not at war where your trying to stack up body counts. Your trying to stay alive. Best way to do that is to stay out of gun fights that aren't necessary. To me that makes a suppressed 5.56 ALOT more practical then a barrette 50bmg. I could care less if someone is looting the local food mart and am not a seal sniper that's going to set up 500 yards from the store to protect it. I'm not even going to be there in the first place. I'm going to be at home defending my family. Everyone lives in a different environment. Around here to get a 200 yard shot you going to have to set up on a road, power line, farm field or out on lake superior in a boat! Its kind of why 90 percent of the hunters are good enough past 200 yards. Most of them during hunting season are lucky if they can see a deer that's 50 yards from there stand. Lots of good calibers for the AR platform. Problem is ammo. If you can afford to buy 5000 6.5 brass and bullets and load it and keep it in stash then your doing great. But then you still have to have guns and ammo for the rest of your family. Whats a 6.5 rifle cost today? I can buy a new ar15 for 450 bucks. I can and own a half a dozen of them and LOTS of ammo that can be shared by all of them. Ive got lots of handguns too but more 9mms and 9mm ammo then the rest put together. Sure faced with a man wanting to kill me id prefer one shot out of a model 29 to any 9mm but which is more practical. I cant see my wife sharing 44 mag ammo with me or my grandkids. Heck if bigger is better then maybe my 500 linebaugh is the way to go. I could carry that and my 50ak marlin. Bottom line is if your alive 2 years after a REAL shtf situation you've not doubt got most if not all of your ammo still and you haven't pulled the trigger on anyone more then 20 yard away from you and for sure a 100 yards away. Now if you think different theres lots of sites that sell nija warrior equipment. Another downside to odd ball calibers is a guy with a ton of 5.56, 9mm and 22lr ammo has lots of barter material. Id rather trade for food then kill for it.

6.5 is a good round.. it's flat shooting and good range. and im not saying that the 5.56 is garbage either. for what it was intended for it is fine. i was just going by what the guy in the article was talking about, that after 200m-300m it is something to be left desired on rough and hilly terrain. but it is true (more or less) that most people would probably never shoot past 100m in a SHTF situation, as it will most likely be against a looter trying to break into your house or garage in the middle of the night or the idiot who comes up to you and tries to mug you. for that the 5.56 would be great, but so would a 9mm and 45ACP. i just like to keep my options open for if i have to, if the situation arises, shoot further.. but that is what i was trying to get at. i might not have said it that clearly, but that is what i was getting at.

[Mauser 98K]

i just couldn't live with myself if i couldn't hit something past 100m. im an accuracy nut and if the rifle won't hold 1 MOA or less then i don't like it and it drives me nuts.

but speaking of SHTF situations that a lot have probably not considered and that would tell how bad it would get real fast. how many here remember when the EBT card system went down? https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/nat...591.html?amp=y

it was in 17 states and was only about a day or two but the welfare garbage who depends on the cards for everything didn't take any time to start their looting and robbing. muggings in that short span skyrocketed and a lot of stores were looted and robbed.. that was only about a 48hr period. now multiply that by a total collapse where the things stop working completely, which could easily happen if we got EMP attacked or something else happened to the power grid. the inner city would turn into a meat grinder real fast. those wastes of skin who depend on the system would immediately revert to their jungle tribal warfare mentality and start looting and mugging people on a massive scale. anyone caught in the middle would be in a bad way. which brings me to my other points..

how many here have food storage? can you effectively protect that storage? if there are a lot of looters and muggers then you will most likely have to defend your stuff from them, this is especially true if you live in city limits. the problem with this is that if you start killing the attackers then others will know that you have something to protect and will most likely hit you from a distance when you come outside one day and then just walk in and take your stuff. you cannot just scare them off either as they would know you have something worth protecting. also where are you going to put the bodies of the attackers? you could go back to the old castle days where they would be under siege from an opposing force.. bodies laying around have a bad tendency to draw flies and pollute the ground water and ground around them. not going to get to the smell. the flies can also spread disease. they would either lob them out of the castle with a catapult or trebuchet or pile them up and burn them. being most people do not have the means to fling them out of their AO, burning or burying would be the only way. too many bodies buried will poison the ground and water table. burning makes smoke and can been seen for miles and will most likely draw in more idiots. it will be a never ending cycle. sure you can burn them at night, but then you run into light from the fire and the smell itself.. that is one thing to consider.

the other things to consider is this.. how many here have generators for a emergency situation? i know a lot of people who say they will just use their generator in a SHTF situation. there is several problems with this idea. one is the smell of exhaust and gasoline. the smell would not really present itself as too big a problem as most generators are noisy. they are dam loud.. most of the standard generators that most people have run at 3,600rpm and can be heard for several miles on a cool quiet night. this itself would tell every baddie in the AO that there is someone out there with a generator so maybe they have food and other supplies too. so that there will bring in the looters and muggers there. and with several days of starving belly you best friend and family can turn onto your worst enemy too. so that there must be taken into consideration when picking those who you tell what you have. but back to the generator and electricity backup systems..

a lot of people will get it in their head that being the generator is noisy and needs fuel, ill just use solar power.. that would actually be a lot better but also has its problems.. lets say the power grid is out. no lights anywhere. you have your trusty solar or other backup systems so that you can run your lights and freezer/fridge.. how is that house going to look to a bad guy who is hungry? they will be drawn to the lights of your house like a moth... then you have idiots to contend with.

and how many here think they are going to just disappear and live off the land? sure you can hunt and fish, but how many other people have this same idea? you will be lucky to not get shot by someone else wanting that deer or fish you just bagged. and think how small the animal populations will get as soon as people start hunting them..within a month or less there will be no critters to hunt. this is why the old Native American tribes were nomadic, they would move where the food was. but then you risk running across others in your travels, as which was very common in the old hunter gather days, and those lead to looting other tribes and possibly becoming food yourself.

and how many here think they are just going to plow up their land and grow their own food? talk to some of the older folks who lived in the depression about what happens to crops unattended.. they magically pick themselves and you are left with nothing. it also will tell people that there are people living in the area that might have things they can take..

but "what caliber i have" is the least of your worries in a true SHTF collapse of society. that is why you do not live in city limits if at all possible, as those will be the first places to burn to the ground. think back to the LA Riots and multiply that x1000 for a good idea of the violence in the streets when the idiots start getting hungry. but the part where you will still have most of your load is a load of malarkey. when things collapse (not a matter of if, but when) most people will have to defend their stuff at least once. there is no way around this.. starvation has a tendency to destroy any resemblance of civilization. after 2-3 days a lot of people would kill their own grandmother for food. i have went 3-4 days without food and ill tell you now, things you would normally not consider start to look like a real good idea, including cannibalism. so man will hunt man for food.

but do not think you will get out of this because you are harmless or because you are prepared. most people will have to leave their houses and a lot of their stash behind. it does not matter how prepared you are or how much ammo and food you have, you cannot fend against hundreds or thousands of starving people wanting a piece of the pie, and there will be millions across the country.. i found out a long time ago that most of us will not survive a real collapse. there are just too many idiots who are not prepared and who rely on the system for their survival. these are the entitlement idiots, and they will think they are entitled to your stuff. there is no way around this fact, they will come for your stuff if they know you are there. if there is a house there then they will be there eventually. and they will go door to door in most places and if they feel they can get away with it then they will kick in the door and take your stuff.. i laugh at most people who think they will not have to get their hands dirty in a SHTF situation. that is only wishful thinking. you have not seen desperate till they start starving.

but b4 anyone ask me about what im planning on doing. i do not know. every trigger is different and causes a different chain of events. if the situation is fluid then you become fluid. it moves you move. we will just have to burn that bridge when it happens.

[303Guy]

Like a previous poster said if the lead was molten it would splatter when it hit steel. How do you explain a 223 55 grain bullet making a perfect hole through 1/4 in steel plate. Is it so hot its melting its way through?? If a bullet is truly over 600 degrees (what it would take minimum to melt the lead) wouldn't it show signs of cauterizing a wound channel? Youd think minimum that youd see signs of it with a soft nose jacketed bullet that shed some of its nose. Wouldn't you also see something as fast and hot as a 257 wby shedding its core in flight? :Surely burning 3 times more powder and traveling a 1000 fps faster the core wouldnt have a chance in something like a 257 or 220 swift. Lead is heavier then steel and the melted nose would keep going and the copper jacket would be laying on the ground. Remember too that a bullet is spinning very fast as it goes to the target so would centrifugal force throw the melted lead out before the bullet arrived? How would we get nicely mushroomed bullets recovered out of animals. does the lead melt and come back together when it hits flesh? this is all so silly!

The lead core only melts if the bullet stops suddenly. Like when it hits hard soil or a steel plate. It is nowhere near molten during its flight. Warm to hot maybe from its passage through the air, not from powder heating. Remember the SR73 Blackbird canopy gets so hot you can't touch it. In fact, the SR73 is painted black to radiate the heat of friction through air. Ok so a bullet doesn't fly quite as fast but it does lose velocity as it travels and that loss is in the form of heat and the pressure wave.

A 223 bullet punching a hole in steel is not being stopped suddenly so it won't melt, or if it does it will be too late for the steel to resist it. I have punched holes in steel plate with a high velocity cast boolit.

There is no significant heating of the bullet by the burning powder gases in the bore. The old 303 MkVII ammo burned very hot yet the cad wad behind the bullet doesn't scorch.

I once recovered a bullet fired into polyester type bunched up rag and it melted itself to the rag. Other bullets actually stopped in the bore from jacket heating and expanding (very small powder charges). Once they cooled they just dropped out. These bullets had heat scorching. So bullet jackets do warm up in the bore but from friction with the bore. By the way, those bullets were very inaccurate, even with full power loads. I would guess they need a high pressure load to bump up the core to sit firmly in the jacket.

[Mauser 98K]

the higher the velocity the more heat is imparted to the projectile due to friction.. air friction and barrel friction impart heat as well as the propellant charge.. it has been shown that if the projectile is driven fast enough it will actually catch fire in flight. this is seen with some of the Electrothermal-chemical weaponry, where the projectile can actually hit 12,000fps. some of these do not have traditional gunpowder but a conductive liquid mixture that turns into a hot expanding plasma gas upon ignition. i have played around with these a few times with a conductive mixture of aluminum powder and salt water. a high energy capacitor bank is used to store the required energy to flash the mixture to plasma. this is and a rail gun are about the only technology i know of where the projectile can actually get hot enough to melt the lead out.

[Omega]

i just couldn't live with myself if i couldn't hit something past 100m. im an accuracy nut and if the rifle won't hold 1 MOA or less then i don't like it and it drives me nuts.

but speaking of SHTF situations that a lot have probably not considered and that would tell how bad it would get real fast. how many here remember when the EBT card system went down? https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/nat...591.html?amp=y

it was in 17 states and was only about a day or two but the welfare garbage who depends on the cards for everything didn't take any time to start their looting and robbing. muggings in that short span skyrocketed and a lot of stores were looted and robbed.. that was only about a 48hr period. now multiply that by a total collapse where the things stop working completely, which could easily happen if we got EMP attacked or something else happened to the power grid. the inner city would turn into a meat grinder real fast. those wastes of skin who depend on the system would immediately revert to their jungle tribal warfare mentality and start looting and mugging people on a massive scale. anyone caught in the middle would be in a bad way. which brings me to my other points..

how many here have food storage? can you effectively protect that storage? if there are a lot of looters and muggers then you will most likely have to defend your stuff from them, this is especially true if you live in city limits. the problem with this is that if you start killing the attackers then others will know that you have something to protect and will most likely hit you from a distance when you come outside one day and then just walk in and take your stuff. you cannot just scare them off either as they would know you have something worth protecting. also where are you going to put the bodies of the attackers? you could go back to the old castle days where they would be under siege from an opposing force.. bodies laying around have a bad tendency to draw flies and pollute the ground water and ground around them. not going to get to the smell. the flies can also spread disease. they would either lob them out of the castle with a catapult or trebuchet or pile them up and burn them. being most people do not have the means to fling them out of their AO, burning or burying would be the only way. too many bodies buried will poison the ground and water table. burning makes smoke and can been seen for miles and will most likely draw in more idiots. it will be a never ending cycle. sure you can burn them at night, but then you run into light from the fire and the smell itself.. that is one thing to consider.

the other things to consider is this.. how many here have generators for a emergency situation? i know a lot of people who say they will just use their generator in a SHTF situation. there is several problems with this idea. one is the smell of exhaust and gasoline. the smell would not really present itself as too big a problem as most generators are noisy. they are dam loud.. most of the standard generators that most people have run at 3,600rpm and can be heard for several miles on a cool quiet night. this itself would tell every baddie in the AO that there is someone out there with a generator so maybe they have food and other supplies too. so that there will bring in the looters and muggers there. and with several days of starving belly you best friend and family can turn onto your worst enemy too. so that there must be taken into consideration when picking those who you tell what you have. but back to the generator and electricity backup systems..

a lot of people will get it in their head that being the generator is noisy and needs fuel, ill just use solar power.. that would actually be a lot better but also has its problems.. lets say the power grid is out. no lights anywhere. you have your trusty solar or other backup systems so that you can run your lights and freezer/fridge.. how is that house going to look to a bad guy who is hungry? they will be drawn to the lights of your house like a moth... then you have idiots to contend with.

and how many here think they are going to just disappear and live off the land? sure you can hunt and fish, but how many other people have this same idea? you will be lucky to not get shot by someone else wanting that deer or fish you just bagged. and think how small the animal populations will get as soon as people start hunting them..within a month or less there will be no critters to hunt. this is why the old Native American tribes were nomadic, they would move where the food was. but then you risk running across others in your travels, as which was very common in the old hunter gather days, and those lead to looting other tribes and possibly becoming food yourself.

and how many here think they are just going to plow up their land and grow their own food? talk to some of the older folks who lived in the depression about what happens to crops unattended.. they magically pick themselves and you are left with nothing. it also will tell people that there are people living in the area that might have things they can take..

but "what caliber i have" is the least of your worries in a true SHTF collapse of society. that is why you do not live in city limits if at all possible, as those will be the first places to burn to the ground. think back to the LA Riots and multiply that x1000 for a good idea of the violence in the streets when the idiots start getting hungry. but the part where you will still have most of your load is a load of malarkey. when things collapse (not a matter of if, but when) most people will have to defend their stuff at least once. there is no way around this.. starvation has a tendency to destroy any resemblance of civilization. after 2-3 days a lot of people would kill their own grandmother for food. i have went 3-4 days without food and ill tell you now, things you would normally not consider start to look like a real good idea, including cannibalism. so man will hunt man for food.

but do not think you will get out of this because you are harmless or because you are prepared. most people will have to leave their houses and a lot of their stash behind. it does not matter how prepared you are or how much ammo and food you have, you cannot fend against hundreds or thousands of starving people wanting a piece of the pie, and there will be millions across the country.. i found out a long time ago that most of us will not survive a real collapse. there are just too many idiots who are not prepared and who rely on the system for their survival. these are the entitlement idiots, and they will think they are entitled to your stuff. there is no way around this fact, they will come for your stuff if they know you are there. if there is a house there then they will be there eventually. and they will go door to door in most places and if they feel they can get away with it then they will kick in the door and take your stuff.. i laugh at most people who think they will not have to get their hands dirty in a SHTF situation. that is only wishful thinking. you have not seen desperate till they start starving.

but b4 anyone ask me about what im planning on doing. i do not know. every trigger is different and causes a different chain of events. if the situation is fluid then you become fluid. it moves you move. we will just have to burn that bridge when it happens.

We can what-if a SHTF scenario all day long, and there is no way to prepare for every possible happenstance. But, caliber selection is an important part of most any strategy, and the 5.56 would be a wise choice for many. It is easy to carry a full load, easy to place steel on target, easy to make follow-up shots, and no matter how hungry, we'll get to that, a person is, none of them will be in a hurry to rush a place defended by a rapid fire rifle. Now back to hunger, most of these people will succumb within a week of running out of food, in two weeks, the ones that are semi prepared will be in the same boat. Those that survive into the third, and fourth week will have some knowledge, something to stock up on, and those will be worthy opponents, or worthy of making friends with. At the end of the day, a lone survivor will have less of a chance than those who have a group of like minded individuals working together to survive.

[Mauser 98K]

you are failing to take into account what happen till they succumb to hunger. it takes a lot longer than a week to die of starvation if the person has any body mass. it can take several weeks. water would be the one that kills in a few days.

but if it is a group you fail to take into account the tactic of the flanking maneuver. a few will keep you occupied and have some others to come in behind you and take you out from behind. and while you are blowing away ammo in rapid fire, everyone within several square miles will know there is someone there and you will have a small army converging on you in short order. but never underestimate the power of hunger and what people will be willing to face down to stop it, all you have to do is look at some of these 3rd world countries to see what people will do for food. that includes blitzkrieging troops with automatic rifles to get to the relief aid..

but most people will not even know the muggers are even there till they hear a few pops from the bushes and they fall over.. everyone still thinks that the bad guys will just run up to them, announce they are going to mug you, and then allow you to defend yourself. that is not what id do. id hide in the bushes till you come out of your front door and put one in your forehead. then i do not have to worry about you anymore. this is the most likely thing to happen if someone wants your stuff. bad guys are notoriously cowards. they will get you from behind and when you cannot see them and not expecting them. so you can shoot 30rnds from that AR real fast. what good is that if you never even know they are there? think like a bad guy.

[Omega]

you are failing to take into account what happen till they succumb to hunger. it takes a lot longer than a week to die of starvation if the person has any body mass. it can take several weeks. water would be the one that kills in a few days.

but if it is a group you fail to take into account the tactic of the flanking maneuver. a few will keep you occupied and have some others to come in behind you and take you out from behind. and while you are blowing away ammo in rapid fire, everyone within several square miles will know there is someone there and you will have a small army converging on you in short order. but never underestimate the power of hunger and what people will be willing to face down to stop it, all you have to do is look at some of these 3rd world countries to see what people will do for food. that includes blitzkrieging troops with automatic rifles to get to the relief aid..

but most people will not even know the muggers are even there till they hear a few pops from the bushes and they fall over.. everyone still thinks that the bad guys will just run up to them, announce they are going to mug you, and then allow you to defend yourself. that is not what id do. id hide in the bushes till you come out of your front door and put one in your forehead. then i do not have to worry about you anymore. this is the most likely thing to happen if someone wants your stuff. bad guys are notoriously cowards. they will get you from behind and when you cannot see them and not expecting them. so you can shoot 30rnds from that AR real fast. what good is that if you never even know they are there? think like a bad guy.

No, I'm not failing to take any of that into account; but what you fail to take into account is that if they can do all that to a guy with an AR, what makes you think a guy with a bolt action, revolver, or even an M1 will fare any different? The point is, I've chosen my platform, I've trained with said platform and have cast my die. But I'm no fool, I'm also ready to pickup my 308 to reach out and touch someone. But, the reality is that old age will catch up to us sooner than any maurauder will, so hopefully there are younger defenders in your clan to take up the slack.

[glockfan]

i just couldn't live with myself if i couldn't hit something past 100m. im an accuracy nut and if the rifle won't hold 1 MOA or less then i don't like it and it drives me nuts.

but speaking of SHTF situations that a lot have probably not considered and that would tell how bad it would get real fast. how many here remember when the EBT card system went down? https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/nat...591.html?amp=y

it was in 17 states and was only about a day or two but the welfare garbage who depends on the cards for everything didn't take any time to start their looting and robbing. muggings in that short span skyrocketed and a lot of stores were looted and robbed.. that was only about a 48hr period. now multiply that by a total collapse where the things stop working completely, which could easily happen if we got EMP attacked or something else happened to the power grid. the inner city would turn into a meat grinder real fast. those wastes of skin who depend on the system would immediately revert to their jungle tribal warfare mentality and start looting and mugging people on a massive scale. anyone caught in the middle would be in a bad way. which brings me to my other points..

how many here have food storage? can you effectively protect that storage? if there are a lot of looters and muggers then you will most likely have to defend your stuff from them, this is especially true if you live in city limits. the problem with this is that if you start killing the attackers then others will know that you have something to protect and will most likely hit you from a distance when you come outside one day and then just walk in and take your stuff. you cannot just scare them off either as they would know you have something worth protecting. also where are you going to put the bodies of the attackers? you could go back to the old castle days where they would be under siege from an opposing force.. bodies laying around have a bad tendency to draw flies and pollute the ground water and ground around them. not going to get to the smell. the flies can also spread disease. they would either lob them out of the castle with a catapult or trebuchet or pile them up and burn them. being most people do not have the means to fling them out of their AO, burning or burying would be the only way. too many bodies buried will poison the ground and water table. burning makes smoke and can been seen for miles and will most likely draw in more idiots. it will be a never ending cycle. sure you can burn them at night, but then you run into light from the fire and the smell itself.. that is one thing to consider.

the other things to consider is this.. how many here have generators for a emergency situation? i know a lot of people who say they will just use their generator in a SHTF situation. there is several problems with this idea. one is the smell of exhaust and gasoline. the smell would not really present itself as too big a problem as most generators are noisy. they are dam loud.. most of the standard generators that most people have run at 3,600rpm and can be heard for several miles on a cool quiet night. this itself would tell every baddie in the AO that there is someone out there with a generator so maybe they have food and other supplies too. so that there will bring in the looters and muggers there. and with several days of starving belly you best friend and family can turn onto your worst enemy too. so that there must be taken into consideration when picking those who you tell what you have. but back to the generator and electricity backup systems..

a lot of people will get it in their head that being the generator is noisy and needs fuel, ill just use solar power.. that would actually be a lot better but also has its problems.. lets say the power grid is out. no lights anywhere. you have your trusty solar or other backup systems so that you can run your lights and freezer/fridge.. how is that house going to look to a bad guy who is hungry? they will be drawn to the lights of your house like a moth... then you have idiots to contend with.

and how many here think they are going to just disappear and live off the land? sure you can hunt and fish, but how many other people have this same idea? you will be lucky to not get shot by someone else wanting that deer or fish you just bagged. and think how small the animal populations will get as soon as people start hunting them..within a month or less there will be no critters to hunt. this is why the old Native American tribes were nomadic, they would move where the food was. but then you risk running across others in your travels, as which was very common in the old hunter gather days, and those lead to looting other tribes and possibly becoming food yourself.

and how many here think they are just going to plow up their land and grow their own food? talk to some of the older folks who lived in the depression about what happens to crops unattended.. they magically pick themselves and you are left with nothing. it also will tell people that there are people living in the area that might have things they can take..

but "what caliber i have" is the least of your worries in a true SHTF collapse of society. that is why you do not live in city limits if at all possible, as those will be the first places to burn to the ground. think back to the LA Riots and multiply that x1000 for a good idea of the violence in the streets when the idiots start getting hungry. but the part where you will still have most of your load is a load of malarkey. when things collapse (not a matter of if, but when) most people will have to defend their stuff at least once. there is no way around this.. starvation has a tendency to destroy any resemblance of civilization. after 2-3 days a lot of people would kill their own grandmother for food. i have went 3-4 days without food and ill tell you now, things you would normally not consider start to look like a real good idea, including cannibalism. so man will hunt man for food.

but do not think you will get out of this because you are harmless or because you are prepared. most people will have to leave their houses and a lot of their stash behind. it does not matter how prepared you are or how much ammo and food you have, you cannot fend against hundreds or thousands of starving people wanting a piece of the pie, and there will be millions across the country.. i found out a long time ago that most of us will not survive a real collapse. there are just too many idiots who are not prepared and who rely on the system for their survival. these are the entitlement idiots, and they will think they are entitled to your stuff. there is no way around this fact, they will come for your stuff if they know you are there. if there is a house there then they will be there eventually. and they will go door to door in most places and if they feel they can get away with it then they will kick in the door and take your stuff.. i laugh at most people who think they will not have to get their hands dirty in a SHTF situation. that is only wishful thinking. you have not seen desperate till they start starving.

but b4 anyone ask me about what im planning on doing. i do not know. every trigger is different and causes a different chain of events. if the situation is fluid then you become fluid. it moves you move. we will just have to burn that bridge when it happens.

a dozen sks or ak's...many tens of thousands of norinco bullets to feed them.....and come to get me and my family!!

seriously now.

in a SHTF scenario, what you need the most is many bows, arrows, a dozen SKS's and thousands and thousands of bullets .the ammo should be used as a ''one round one kill'''' defensive device. you don't want to spill any.

as for food,i guess that basic elements ,seeds for crops, salt,sugar,flour,cannings etcetcetc ....and of course games around would suffice for some time. you must gang with minded people,so everyone has a job. you can't welcome every persons who is on its way to find a way
to survive.impossible. however, you still can help the people who are still sane in their mind,you still can help them to set up IF gthey worth it from YOUR point of view and the conditions of the moment.

you MUST be far away from the ''dancing floor''' where zombies are pop'ing up as the shortages of everything are piling up. mountain top is a good spot to see the events scrolling your way if it has to happen.

for the people who are alone, but well armed with at least a bow and couple firearms and ammo,being mobile and nomade is your best bet to survive.the fartest of large cities you go,the higher the chance to find a spot , OR , a micro society willing to welcome you to survive.as you said,inner cities small or big is where the worse the human being has to offer will be seen.

i have a cabin far in the north,kind of a no man land area where humans are scarce. you must at least fuel your pick up 4 times to reach the place.it,s 16 hours full north from where i live. i've lways thought this place would be a good safe just in case...so i keep couple axes, 1 excalibure 480 fps cross bow, 3 hunting bows 1 being a pulley bow dedicated to precision shooting , a truck load
of hunting arrows...in the real, i've inherited the cabin from dad who was an avid hunter,fisherman ; along the last 3 decades , i've built a set up i'm leaving there because ahummmm....there's no real rule up there,you can go fishing and hunting small games all year round without fear of being checked out by ''officials''' . it's a very remote area ,and there's only 3 months in the year where hunters are ''assaulting'' the area for hunting endeavors.otherwise it's the total wild.i really think that this location is a perfect shtf safe location. in case of chaos,there's no way anyone could find enough gas to reach the place.

[Thundarstick]

M98K remind me again where your 800 yard rifle fits into you're last several post?

I seem to remember that some of the best things you can have stocked up in a collapse is booze and cigarettes!

About the depression, my Great Aunt told me you'd get shot over a chicken during those times, as chicken theaving was a killing offence, and having a milk cow was a big deal as well!

We live together, or die together, in real bad times!

[lefty o]

ima go find my hip waders. its getting deep in here.................................

[303Guy]

the higher the velocity the more heat is imparted to the projectile due to friction.. air friction and barrel friction impart heat as well as the propellant charge.. it has been shown that if the projectile is driven fast enough it will actually catch fire in flight. this is seen with some of the Electrothermal-chemical weaponry, where the projectile can actually hit 12,000fps. some of these do not have traditional gunpowder but a conductive liquid mixture that turns into a hot expanding plasma gas upon ignition. i have played around with these a few times with a conductive mixture of aluminum powder and salt water. a high energy capacitor bank is used to store the required energy to flash the mixture to plasma. this is and a rail gun are about the only technology i know of where the projectile can actually get hot enough to melt the lead out.

That is interesting, thanks.

12,000fps! Holy cow! That would get hot but no doubt those projectiles would not be of standard construction. To actually catch fire! Remember the space capsule re-entry heating from the early days. The heat shield was made of glass IIRC which melted and evaporated for cooling and of course, shielding. Then came the ceramic tiles.

Just how much heat is transferred to a normal rifle bullet base from the propellant?

Ok so here is the temperature of a bullet in flight. Muzzle velocity here is 1070fps.


So it actually cools down during flight. Realize this for a pistol bullet. The temperature measured would be surface temperature so cooling would be quite rapid and the major source of that heat would be barrel friction. The core would not get anywhere near that hot.

A 5.56 NATO bullet gets to about the same temperature at the muzzle.

We concluded that the bullet's temperature was around 267 degrees Celsius (513 degrees F). The bullet gets very hot as it is forced down the rifle barrel at supersonic speeds.

Not sure this next bit is factual.

Many years ago when the 220 swift was a big thing, some thought the lead was at the melting point for some time due to friction of the bullet in air. This would explain the 'gray mist' seen when the jacket comes apart.

This next one is interesting.

It's not uncommon for expanding bullets to exhibit more expansion at long range due to core liquefaction than if they strike a medium up close at the reduced velocity equivalent to their arrival at a long range target.

So there is enough frictional heating to liquefy the core, but we're talking somewhere north of 500 yards.

This could be due to core softening due to heating rather than liquefaction.

[Mauser 98K]

M98K remind me again where your 800 yard rifle fits into you're last several post?

I seem to remember that some of the best things you can have stocked up in a collapse is booze and cigarettes!

About the depression, my Great Aunt told me you'd get shot over a chicken during those times, as chicken theaving was a killing offence, and having a milk cow was a big deal as well!

We live together, or die together, in real bad times!

you more or less hit it on the head there.. united we stand, divided we fall.. the problem is, how united is the country today? if anything there is more division than ever b4, and it seems to only be getting worse..

and booze and cigarettes. actually are good barter items. and do not forget toilet paper. that stuff will be worth its weight in gold if the stores are not open. lets not forget the collapse in Venezuela, where there is actually a black market for toilet paper.

but the 800m rifle. the more accurate a rifle is at long range the more accurate at closer ranges it will be. am i going to be shooting that far? probably not, as my AO is hilly and has wooded areas. about 400m is about the max around here, and that is down a power line cut or highway usually.. mostly it is 200m or less, and that is why i got the semi auto rifle. it fills in where the bolt gun falls short of fire rate and the bolt gun fills in where the semi auto falls short of range.. but if you cannot see where you would need a long range bolt gun in a SHTF situation then i don't figure you will ever need one..



but Omega. not trying to tell you what platform to use. not trying to tell anyone what platform to use. use what you are good with and are willing to use. i was just saying what my preference was. if you are proficient with the AR in 5.56 then have at it. i never said it was worthless for a SHTF situation. but the part where "if they can do all that to a guy with an AR what could they do to a guy with a bolt gun".. that is something we all have to think about in that situation. i was just pointing out possibilities so that one can hopefully be halfway prepared for that situation. situational awareness comes into play there.. it can come down to something as small as an odd looking bush or a pile of grass that was not there the day b4.

but everyone forgets that Germany conquered a large portion of Europe with bolt action rifles. if we had not have jumped in then they would have taken over the entire area over there. with the bolt gun, if they could see you then they could hit you. in open warfare the bolt action is superior to a semi auto rifle. it is more accurate at range. in fact the Wehrmacht preferred the bolt action over a semi auto for that exact reason in open country. of course one must take into account the different thought processes then as opposed to now.. in the 30s and 40s the troops were taught to do aimed fire. spray and pray was strictly frowned upon and would get you reprimanded real fast. you were taught accuracy over volume fire and to take the target with as little ammo expended.. fast forward to today and most of the time there are thousands of round expended per enemy kill. also the semi auto changed a persons mindset. they know that if they miss with the first shot that it is just a matter of pulling the trigger again and again till they hit the target. you cannot do this with a bolt gun so you were forced to actually aim b4 pulling the trigger. it forces you to shoot accurately the first time.. i am more scared of a guy with an old bolt gun than i am of a guy with a semi auto, especially if the guy knows what he is doing.. if the guy with the bolt gun knows his stuff then there is no shot to be heard as the first shot is the last you ever hear. i subscribe to this ideology of "hit with the first round or do not even attempt it" school of thought. if i cannot do it with the first round then i consider it wasting ammo. this is something else people must take into account. in a real SHTF situation ammo will be a precious resource. if you just hose or do rapid fire then that is ammo that cannot be replaced. do enough of the rapid fire spray and pray stupidity and you burn through your ammo. it does not matter if you can carry that 600rnds of ammo to my 200rnds if you do rapid fire and miss 2/3 the time. if you have to shoot many times to get the job done then that extra ammo is just wasted. but that is what i always see when they are using the AR platform. a lot of rapid fire and hope to hit the target. just think how devastating a squad could be if they would get accurate rifles that they could do accuracy over volume fire with. they would have a lot higher shot to kill ratio, that is for dam sure..

but use the rifle you want. i don't really care what you use if you can hit the target with accuracy and it keeps you alive...

[Mauser 98K]

but i need folks to keep their .223 rifles. that way i can pick through the mountains of spent cases and make brass for my CZ-52.