Shotgun Slugs

[longbow]

James I appreciate the feedback - not caustic at all.

I have been struggling, albeit a bit at a time, for many years. I have tried various slugs on and off for about 30 years but not really looked at it like a project. I have mainly used traditional Fosters and book loads with minor alterations like paper patching slugs to get them to bore size. I really haven't looked deeply into the finer details until recently.

As you point out, and maybe it should be more obvious but I hadn't really thought about it, are the chamber and forcing cone designs. Even more of and issue with a 2 3/4" hull in a 3" chamber so forcing cone to deal with and a long jump to get to it first! I had never considered how much the slug can skew in that distance which may well help explain my poor results with the short Lyman Foster slug.

Like I said, I have kind of worked on this for a long time but not as seriously or in as much detail as I should have. I have probably learned more in the last 6 months than I have in the last 29 1/2 years! There are many people here such as yourself with far more slug shooting experience than I am ever likely to get and I appreciate them sharing there experiences and knowledge.

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

Let me explain something right up front. I spent my entire adult life working for the gum and ammo co's, in various postions, including Vice-Pres & Director of Marketing for the former Smith & wesson Ammo Co. Duriing all that time I was fortunate to have rubbed elbows with some of the old Greats.
When I retired and moved back to my native state of Florida.....I got tired of fishing and general loafing around. Ammo is in my blood and the results was Dixie Slugs. I enjoy the head to head talk with my customers....there is no middlemen eating up dollars.
Now....as I have said before, there is a growing intrerest in rifled barrels.....and not only in shotgun-only-states. Many of our customers have been involved witj hard cast in handguns.....a natural progression to large rifled barrels.
I really do not claim to have a good bedside manner and sometime come off a little caustic when I see speculation, instead of facts. With all the sydicated gas bag writers today, the web is about the only place left to get facts!
I am nothing more that an old mossy-back ammo man!
Regards, James

[Blammer]

thanks for explaining a few things...

[longbow]

James:

I for one am quite interested in your posts here and on other sites. I'm trying to learn everything I can from wherever I can and you are providing good information and feedback.

Thanks,
Longbow

[Blammer]

ditto

[Dixie Slugs]

The first thing to remember about hard cast full bore ammo for rifled shothun barrels....it is just another larger bullet....everything envolved is the same. Same lube, same casting practices, same alloy requiremnts, about the same everything. Slow powders for heavy slug/bullets....Alliant Blue Dot and Steel are good. Straight wall cases are best...Fiocchi, Cheddite, Federal. The wad column should be firm. Circle Fly has great .250" hard nitro wads and the hard gray3/8" filler wad. bpi has the best overpowder wad...X12X
A good safe place to start with powder is to use the same amount showing for an equal weight shot. Slug/buulet laods have less sidewall pressure. friction than an equal weight of shot. Most factory rifled barrels run .727" in the grooves and .717" on the lands. You can go .003" over groove diameter in the large bores. Heat treating wheelweights at 425/450 for one hour and cool water quench will run the bhn up to around 30 bhn....and will drop back to about 28 and stabilize over a couple weeks.
There is nothing magic to learn, just common sense. Ren=member what we spoke of about the length of the wad column to seal. Drop a full bore slug into the chamber.it will dtop in the forcing cone. Measure the depth to the rim of the shell's chamber. Add the length of the slug bullet to that, less the chamber length.....and you have the length of the needed wad column so the entire slug is in the bore while the wad is still exiting the hull. That way there is no blowby.
Just some thoughts, James

[BAGTIC]

Why hollowpoints in bullets that big?

They already have more than enough diameter to kill effectively and too much expansion would just jeopardize penetration, the big bores' most important advantage. Seems like gilding the lily to me.

[longbow]

I am not the designer of the slug just the mould maker. I believe the goal was to produce a slug of "desired" dimensions without excessive weight.

A 12 ga. RB weighs about 560 gr. and a solid "square" slug is about 870 gr. so to get a reasonable weight slug it has to be hollow base, hollow point, not "square" or a combination to stretch it out to get good bore contact and alignment.

Personally I lean towards bore size round ball with a suitable twist of about 1:120" - according to the Greenhills formula. Unfortunately my budget doesn't allow for custom guns or barrels at this point in my life so I am playing with smoothbores. Modern rifled shotguns have much quicker twists than that.

The fellow that asked was looking for a slug of certain dimensions, weight and style to suit his purposes. He is far more experienced than I am in the art of shotgun slug design and performance.

I am sure James of Dixie slugs has observations and comments as well. He is an advocate of bore size heavy slugs similar to the old Paradox style.

I am in learning mode and am quite happy to help out as long as I get some feedback as to what works and what doesn't. This has been an interesting exercise - and it is still in progress.

[Dixie Slugs]

We are all re-learning about slug/bullet designs. Greg is a dear frind of mine and we discuss full bore slug designs quite often. We do have a few different ideas on slug/bullet weight....that's all.
Now.....on a slug from a push mold that has no lube/relief grove. I would highly suggest useing Moly. We have the equipment to imping Moly into the surface of the lead slug/bullet. It works extra good, but doe not adapt well for larger production. The Moly is actually push into the surface of hard lead.
The original Paradox slug bullet did have a large rounded groove that was 1/3 of the side wall lenght. It was really there to reduce sidewall friction since the slug/bullet was quite hard.
The basic problem with the Paradox design is rolled crimping. It is very hard to get the rolled crimp down to the first band on a Paradox design....and the Paradox nose design does not give the tissue damage that a wad cutter type nose does. If you do not want the wadcutter nos edesign...a truncat nose is good. The hollow pointing is used to adjust the weight of the slug. There is some arguement as to whether the hollow point nose design is more accurate in flight than a hollow base. In truth there is no difference in accuracy if both have consistant sidewall thickness and the veloacity is high enough to stabilize both.
It just matter of which one the designer/shooter likes....that big hollow point nose looks good to some shooter/hunters, even if it des not expand!...and I think it weakens (sp) the nose when hitting big green bones
Just some thoughts....Regards, James

[longbow]

James:

The intent of Greg's design is to utilize plastic shotcups for easier loading so the slug doesn't actually contact the barrel - no lube groove required.

Also, since the push out moulds are so easy to make and allow easy changes to the nose shape it makes experimenting quicker, easier and cheaper than conventional split moulds.

If desired, a lube holding surface can be added by knurling. I made a grooving tool that makes multiple small grooves and swells the slug by about 0.003" so they have to be cast a little undersize. This would allow a full bore slug with lube. I have done this with .44 mag and .303 British bullets with good results. Accuracy has been good and no leading. I haven't tried it with a shotgun slug as I don't have rifled shotgun but no reason it shouldn't work. Also, as you mention, moly may well be another good solution.

I'm sure Greg will post results when he completes testing. He has put a lot of work into this project.

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

I am very well aware of what Greg is doing as we dicuss projects one or two times a week.
I am also aware that he is loking at designs that go inside of a wad and do not need lube.
But, I also posted that a smooth sided slug cound use Moly very well, as cast.
I am also trying to get people to understand that the large groove in the originals, and presnt day designs, was/is designed to reduce sidewall friction on hard cast heat treated slug/bullets....fact! I also undersatnd the ease of push trough molds...and reduce cost. I will mention in passing that pressure will be higher, all the considerations as to diameter, weight and hardness, than a design that has a relief gun....in rifled barrels. We ahve seen that in developing our production ammo.
I will also state that the design requirements of an ammo maker, selling to the general public, is different that the design requirements of a hobbyist (sp). There all kinds of exotic designs that the hobbyist can play with....that the ammo maker would go broke trying to sell. So...by nature the ammo maker must be conservative in many respects. This alone, may be a reason that an ammo maker should stay off a forum that is primarlly hobbyists.
Regards, James

[longbow]

You bring up a good point James. A full bore slug with a long contact surface presents a lot of lead to swage and a lot of bore friction.

I'm not implying that the smooth sided slug us better, simply that it is easier to produce for experimentation. Certainly a full bore lug would require some means of allowing lube and as you say a relief groove or two would help reduce friction and so pressure.

Lots of things to think about. That's what I like about this place - lots of experience brought together in one spot and shared. You have brought up many good points.

[Dixie Slugs]

For the reloader and caster, I think the smooth side slug/bullet fron a push through mold is a very good way to go. We need more mold makers making large slug/bullets! I see no real problem with a slug/bullet without a relief.lube groove unless the allot was very hard and heat treated. I still think Moly would be the easy way to go.
now....let's look at shotgun slugs in general. There are very basic differences in what is being worked on! Greg is working on a design for extending the hunting range in Shotgun-Only-States, there are others that are working on designs the the casters of cast bullets for reloading, and there are others working on take-off designs form the Brits work for large and/or dangerous game. There are also some that are working on lathe turned brass and ciopper slug/bullets....very expensive!
I want to see bullet casters, like here on Cast Boolits, get more involved! Dixie really does not lose any business from the handloaders....and we sponser the Reloading Section of Shotgun World. Forums like this is the Net's Research & Development Department! We can not depend on the syndicated rag writers anymore.
Regards, James

[only1asterisk]

Rick,

I like this one:



What would you say to something like this?