1874 Sharps 45-70 accuracy concerns

[shafer44]

sorry, was not trying to be an A*hole about it, i just did not understand that you meant seat the bullet deeper. I have not had a working single shot, but have loaded many bolt action rifle loads. For accuracy in those it is size a case, insert a bullet, close the bolt and then back up or seat deeper by 3-5 thousandths, just off the lands. Somewhere here I read some post that said to seat the bullets in the lands with cast boolits, but I had not loaded any long boolits yet. I loaded some and when I seated the boolits per the recommended COL, it was in the lands and I had to push the case in with my thumb to get the falling block to close. Hopefully, what i did is correct, I backed off the seating depth until I could load the shell normally without having to push it in with my thumb. For my rifle, Lyman cast bullet book said 2.85" COL, but I had to shorten that to 2.70" to have an easy loading shell. It is still very close to the lands, as I seated by a few thousandths each time, trial an error until I got to where it fit easily. Thanks for the suggestion and sorry if I seemed testy.

[Chill Wills]

No blood, no foul. We are good.
It sounds like you have the idea. You can custom fit the ammo to your rifle chamber when loading for singleshots. And, you are now doing that.

Smokeless or BP, both are fun. Due give the BP a chance soon as it will be a pleasant surprise. Those that have also know that cleaning is a snap.

[shafer44]

this forum is so informative that it hurts.....hurts my pocket book!! I have bought the Pedersoli 1874 Sharps 45-70, dies, 3 molds, creedmoor soule type sight, spirit front sight, new powders, dug out my old Remington RB's (43 egyptian x 2 and 7x57 Spanish mauser #5 1897) and am having to replace extractor in one of them. Bought lead to mix with my linotype...man, the list goes on. Now, I may have to get some BP. It has been so long since I bought any, I saw someone telling me to try 1-1/2F or 2F. When I shot BP last, I don't think there was any half numbers. I think I still have a can of 3F that i have not opened, but I guess that is not for cartridge BP?? Anyway, I guess it back out to the range tomorrow and try the new heavier boolits with AA5744 loaded in them to see if they group better.

[Chill Wills]

You can use the 3f. Some really great (accurate) loads have been made from 3f.
Since you have it, give it a try. It won't be bad. by the time you find the best load that lb will be gone anyway, so have fun with it, and get some more 2f or 1.5f. It won't matter which. Play with it.
The Swiss and Olde Eynsford(GOEX) may or may not show better accuracy than what you have now.

[shafer44]

ok, mine is Goex 3F

[shafer44]

I have a friend that has 2F in Goex, would it be better for me to trade him the 3F for his 2F? He told me he would trade a while back.

[shafer44]

ok, am I the only pansy or does anyone use a recoil pad slip on or whatever on the Sharps 45-70?

[Don McDowell]

I use a slip on pad when shooting from prone, but when shooting sitting or offhand I don't.

[NSB]

Unless you're really pushing those loads, you won't need a pad sitting or standing. It's a pretty heavy gun and it soaks up a lot of recoil. I don't use a pad at all, but I keep them at around 1400-1550fps. I guess I'm a pansy that way

[charlie b]

Sorry, but, I use a PAST shoulder pad for almost everything I shoot. Even if I don't 'need' it I like having it on. I can fire a LOT more shots during a session without any ill effects.

I started with it due to heavy bullet loads and also found that it had another benefit. Hunting load development was during summer. Light shirts. Hunting was cold weather, heavy coats. Using the pad during summer meant I had the same pull length as when hunting.

Now it is just habit to put it on when I go to the range. I am usually wearing it when I shoot my rimfires.

[EDG]

Lose the 3031.

Try the 5744. If you can possibly find SR4759 try some of that. It was never very popular and was discontinued about 3 years ago. Since you have a fairly strong rifle when loading SR4759 start with about 23 grains and a 500+grain bullet. Shoot groups and look in the bore for unburned grains of powder. SR4759 will leave huge grains of unburned powder that seem to cause fliers. When you increase the powder charge to the sweet spot the unburned grains will disappear. That will be somewhere between 25 to 26 grains. You should get excellent groups in your Pedersoli. My best groups came from a Steve Brooks mold that gives a 512 grain bullet at about .460. I shoot them lubed but unsized. Velocity should be about 1100 to 1300fps.

I expand the cases to the same diameter as the bullets. The only grip I get on the bullet is from the spring back of the case when the expander is removed.
I seat the bullet about .050 shallow so that it hits the rifling. It only requires light thumb pressure to force the case forward enough to close the breech block. I get excellent accuracy.

I cannot use the Pedersoli front inserts because the aperture rings are too thin for me to easily see. The wide Lyman lollipop inserts with a 8" black bull works well at 100 yards.
I get a football shaped picture due to astigmatism with the smaller rear apertures so I use the larger openings and still get very good results.

[shafer44]

Thanks, i will see if someone local has some 4759. Yeah, I switched to the Pedersoli lollipop, largest one i had and that helps immensely. I found some of my old bulleyse 50 yd targets and they have an 8" black center, which is just right for the lollipop aperature. I think part of my problem is fouling. I am using carnuaba red and i really have a dirty barrel when I get home. I am going to go to the xlox 2500+ and see if that helps. I think I am shooting too low a pressure for the red to do its job. I only shoot about 1400 fps or less and the pressure is usually less than 12000. I just hate the alox/beeswax because it is so sticky and messy. I am trying to find a lube that stays in the grooves and not all over everything else. I know a lot of this is me and not the gun. I can shoot at 50 yds and make one big hole. Of course, as long as I am on excuses, here in West Texas, the wind is always blowing 10-20 mph every day.

[EDG]

I use the Alox/beeswax stuff because I have never had leading at the low velocities with it and it is an excellent rust preventative. Yes it is kind of messy but I use the Berry's 415 Special plastic flip top 50 round box. This box is a good fit for even the long Postell and Creedmoor bullets loaded in the 45-70. This box keeps the loaded rounds clean and separated so the sticky stuff stays where it belongs.
I am originally from Palo Pinto county which has some of the wind though not like further west or in the Panhandle.
One day I noticed that I was getting fliers about 1" to the left. The corresponding wind that day was walking speed - about 4 mph. I did not think that little wind would affect my groups much but I tried shooting when the wind was calm and then when it was steady. When the 4 mph wind was moving my shots veered to the left 1". I later checked the Hornady ballistic charts for data on the 500 grn RN bullets. The bullets I was using were very similar in shape to the Hornady Jacketed bullets. The Hornady ballistic charts agreed very close to 1" wind drift at 100. I am just relating that because a 10 to 20 mph breeze will move even 500 grain bullet more than I ever thought they would.
If you think fouling is a problem you might consider starting with a perfectly clean bore and wipe it with an almost non existent film of Lee Liquid alox. This would only be 2 or 3 or 4 drops on the center of a cleaning patch. This can help prevent lead fouling from the dry bore of the first shot. With 5744 you will get a lot of unburned grains left in the bore. Longer barrels and higher pressures help eliminate some of the unburned grains. You can boost the load to the top of the data recommendations and the unburned grains will be reduced. However with my loads there was always some unburned grains. You might try wiping the bore between shots to see if that improves groups.
I got better groups with SR4759 especially when the unburned grains were eliminated.

Thanks, i will see if someone local has some 4759. Yeah, I switched to the Pedersoli lollipop, largest one i had and that helps immensely. I found some of my old bulleyse 50 yd targets and they have an 8" black center, which is just right for the lollipop aperature. I think part of my problem is fouling. I am using carnuaba red and i really have a dirty barrel when I get home. I am going to go to the xlox 2500+ and see if that helps. I think I am shooting too low a pressure for the red to do its job. I only shoot about 1400 fps or less and the pressure is usually less than 12000. I just hate the alox/beeswax because it is so sticky and messy. I am trying to find a lube that stays in the grooves and not all over everything else. I know a lot of this is me and not the gun. I can shoot at 50 yds and make one big hole. Of course, as long as I am on excuses, here in West Texas, the wind is always blowing 10-20 mph every day.

[shafer44]

we hunted in Palo Pinto county for 15yrs, we had a lease about 3 miles from Possom Kingdom lake. I read somewhere that you could take a piece of chore girl, chore boy or the copper pan cleaner stuff and basically scrub the barrel to remove lead. Is this so, I assume that since it is copper, it would not hurt the barrel?? also, i do not have the liquid alox, but would running a patch thru with bore butter like I use on my muzzleloader do the same type thing? It just seems like I get good groups for 5-8 shots and then it goes to heck, just not consistent after that.

[shafer44]

Ok, a little update on my accuracy issues. I cast some more boolits and this time, I did not size them, they drop out of my mold at .4608 and my barrel slugs .4585. I hand lubed them and went out to shoot. I shot the first shot and it was in the center of my 8" black. The next 5 shots were grouped a little higher, but was a very good for me 2" group....this was at 100yds. I ran a patch every other shot. As I continued shooting and running patches, I noticed some slivers of lead coming out with the patch. Now, I am confused, because I am large enough over groove diameter, I lubed them pretty good, and I am only shooting 1400 fps. The boolits hardness is about 12 bhn. Could the boolits be too soft and I need to get more towards the lyman #2 alloy?

[EDG]

It sounds like you are doing well except for the lead slivers. I have had good results with clip on wheel weights which is about 12 bhn. I have also used 20 parts lead to 1 part tin for about 10 bhn and got good results with that too. If you review other shooters alloys I think you will find that 20 to 1 is the most common alloy. But people also use 16 to 1 or clip on wheel weights to control nose slump. Other shooters use 40 to 1 , 30 to 1 and 25 to 1 which are softer than your alloy so I don't think your alloy is too soft. Maybe one of the other shooters will comment.

My mold casts between .460 and .462 depending on temp and alloy. I shoot the .462 bullets as cast. They are lubed by hand. The .460 bullets are lubed in a .460 die that does not reduce the diameter. When you use a soft oversize bullet it will seal the bore and not have much of a tendency to gas cut or lead.
I think the Alox is probably superior to bore butter but I am not a muzzle loader guy so your judgment is probably better than mine.

I would guess that your bore might have a little leading left in it or your lube is too hard. Some of the synthetic cleaning patches are pretty coarse, tough material and are pretty good for dragging out leading. It might take wiping the bore with a solvent and letting it sit to loosen the lead before a patch can drag it out. I remove lead that way. When the bore is dry any lead shows up as an area with a different reflectivity.

My last hunting place in north Texas was at Caddo in Stephens County a few miles south and west of Possum Kingdom.

Ok, a little update on my accuracy issues. I cast some more boolits and this time, I did not size them, they drop out of my mold at .4608 and my barrel slugs .4585. I hand lubed them and went out to shoot. I shot the first shot and it was in the center of my 8" black. The next 5 shots were grouped a little higher, but was a very good for me 2" group....this was at 100yds. I ran a patch every other shot. As I continued shooting and running patches, I noticed some slivers of lead coming out with the patch. Now, I am confused, because I am large enough over groove diameter, I lubed them pretty good, and I am only shooting 1400 fps. The boolits hardness is about 12 bhn. Could the boolits be too soft and I need to get more towards the lyman #2 alloy?

[country gent]

I use a limb saver slip on pad a lot of the time when testing as being numb I don't know when Ive had "to much fun" always. Clean the bore good to start with and monitor it as you shoot it. If you feel "dry or crusty" patches then you may need a better lube. with the 500 grn - 550 grn bullets I'm only in the 1200 fps range with my loads. But I have yet to have a well hit ram stay standing on me. Another quick question is what are you running for wads between bullets and powder? This can make a difference in loasds performance and leading also.

[shafer44]

i am shooting smokeless with nothing between the powder and boolit

[Boz330]

I get a little lead every time I shoot but not enough to be a problem. I tried straight WW lead and it leaded so bad that within 10 shots I couldn't keep them on paper. 20-1 has always worked good for me in my Pedersoli with BP. Never tried smokeless.

Bob

[shafer44]

well, lead cleaned out, powder change again, boolit change and finally......less than 2" at 100yds!!! I know, not that good, but for me it is when I started with a shotgun pattern. Today with NOE 460-350gr FN....PC'd, 14gr unique I shot a 1.57" group. Amazing that the PC'd bullets shoot so well and they do not lead the barrel. I had to seat them deeper though, they will not chamber the same as normal lubed bullets, the amount on the nose is enough to make me have to seat them deeper by 5 or 6 thousandths.