Custom .410 Slug Loads

[Crawdaddy]

Under perfect circumstance yes. If I had other choices like a high powered rifle I would use it.

[turbo1889]

I have no idea who Dick Metcalf is but I agree in principle with what he had to say in that quote you posted; it is just the successful application of that basic theory that gets a little sticky when you are loading for a 410 smooth-bore shotgun.

As to the specific boolit you linked too on midway, you might be able to just barely get that boolit to stabilize if you were to put a long tail on it. Unfortunately, that gas check on its bottom is going to make attaching the tail a little more problematic then a plain base boolit. Its worth a try but if it were me doing it I would try these first (the 210gr. 41-mag boolit not the 175gr. 40-S&W boolit, page contains both):

http://www.carolinacastbullets.com/40_S_W.html

As I stated before with my experimental work with maximum weight attached base wad slugs 220 grains was as heavy as I was able to go and get them to stabilize and I have found my current choice of 180 grains performs beautifully. That said it is true that both of those designs were/are “choke safe” designs where the primary diameter of the head of the slug is not full bore diameter which means that weight for weight they are slightly longer then a full bore diameter head would be which is why I think you might just barely be able to get that 250 grain 41-mag boolit you linked too to stabilize for you with a long tail. You will need to look for some #4x1” steel flush head screws rather then the significantly more common #4x3/4” steel flush head screws but they are available and will give you an extra 1/4” of tail length extending your tail to be a stack of five or six 1/8” thick 0.430” nitro cards rather then just the three or four cards that the more common 3/4” screw will give you (you need 1/4” to 3/8” of the screw depth screwed into the head to keep it attached).

You should be able to get a slug with a 210gr. head made from the Lee tumble lube boolit stable and up to a velocity of at least 1,500-fps if you use Reloader-7 powder as I previously described which falls within the criteria of what is described by that quote of yours.

[Saiga .410]

thanks a ton guys!!!!

Turbo: Those were 255grains with a gas check and I found these also.

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/671...ose-box-of-100

I have decided to work with some commercially made lead bullets instead so now I'm searching for the right one.

[Saiga .410]

Do you think those would work? I read somewhere that if your going over 1000fps you should have a gas check on pistol bullets?

The 220grains looked good on here but they are not consistent enough in size.

http://www.montanabulletworks.com/41_Mag.html

[Saiga .410]

Does the style of bullet matter (RN, SWC.......)? I'm gonna try and stay around the 210-220 grain range so more recommendations to places that offer them would be appreciated!!! I also don't want to hard or to soft of a cast. Because I'm not needing it to expand crazy, just enough to get the job done.

Also is heat treating good for the bullets?

[blaster]

Do you think those would work? I read somewhere that if your going over 1000fps you should have a gas check on pistol bullets?

The 220grains looked good on here but they are not consistent enough in size.

http://www.montanabulletworks.com/41_Mag.html

That myth is for pistol bullets in pistols. You are working with a whole different animal here. The attached wad will make the gas seal.

[Saiga .410]

Thanks! Now all I have to do is find the correct bullet?

[turbo1889]

Blaster is correct about the gas check being unnecessary due to the attached wad serving as a gas seal.

As far as boolit shape goes since you are seeking to use the absolute maximum weight you can get to shoot straight (and for a smooth bore gun that means the heaviest weight slug head you can stabilize with an attached tail wad assembly) the best boolit shape to use is the one that allows for packing the most weight into the shortest length boolit holding the diameter constant at 0.41"

The most compact of all would be a full wadcutter with absolutely no lube grooves which always provides the shortest length for a given weight and alloy. Problem with that is that a totally flat nose isn't always desired and at least a little bit of angle on the nose helps a lot with reducing the air drag which bleeds energy from a slug like a bucket with a hole in it and a little bit of allowance for some lube would be nice. So a squatty nose shape with just a little bit of angle to the nose that doesn't use up a whole lot of "lead space" like a wide flat nose boolit or a SWC or TC with a large meplat would be best and will also provide good knock down due to having a large flat meplat on the nose. Tumble lube grooves take up less "lead space" then regular lube grooves so they would be better then regular lube grooves for this kind of application by a small margin but not enough for you to not consider boolits with conventional lube grooves by any means.

Most of the boolits you have linked too are good possibilities as far as the nose shape since you seem to have been picking large meplat "boxy" shaped boolits anyway.

Yes, heat treated boolits are good but a good hard alloy isn't shabby either and the heat treated will be harder to drill for the screw hole in the base so I wouldn't pay too much extra for them.

Purchase a handful of a couple of the boolits you want to try (buy the smallest quantity offered to start with), some #4x1" and #4x3/4" steel flush head screws from your local ACE hardware store, some 0.430" nitro cards, a 5/64" drill bit, and then put some slugs together and try them out for stability and accuracy. There is no substitute for live fire field testing.

And a clarification from earlier, "Carolina Cast Bullets" (CCB) is a commercial casting outfit and does sell the boolits cast and lubed its just that they use the Lee tumble lube design molds so that is why I linked to them above in post #22 after I figured out you weren't after a mold and casting your own per-say but would prefer to buy the boolits and then build the slugs from them rather then casting them if you don't have too since I originally recommended using the Lee 41-mag 210gr. tumble lube boolit as the head and you can get those from CCB ready cast and lubed all ready to go. $12.50 per 100 count which will fit in the smaller shipping box which is half the shipping cost of the larger box he usually ships in which means it would cost you less then $20 to get a hundred of those shipped to your door to try out from CCB.

[Saiga .410]

Thanks Turbo!!! You don't even realize how much of a help you have been!!!

http://www.montanabulletworks.com/41_Mag.html

I posted this link earlier, wondering if you think this would be a good bullet to try and pull this off with?

I'm not sure if the heat treatment is good because I heard it can shatter on impact with bone, which means i would get hardly any penetration if I hit a rib bone and if I don't hit one, it may not expand at all?

And wont drilling into the bullet take off weight?

The boxy type draws my eye for some reaon in this case thats a good thing!

If I'm correct I will be pushing over 1050lbs of energy. Plenty for my intensions

And if I get the 220's like I want I will be pushing almost 1100 lbs of energy

[maglvr]

The old timers creed for what makes a black bear rifle has always been 40-200-1000.
That is .40 cal.- 200gr.- 1000fps.
Shouldn't be too hard to get there!

[Saiga .410]

I'm gonna be using a .41, a 210-220 grain and around 1500fps. Definitely meeting the quota

[Saiga .410]

+What hull?
+How much powder?
+And the guy that I'm buying from uses different alloys so what should I tell him?
Remember...some expansion but not so much that it blows apart.
+Alloy needs to hold up if bone is hit. I don't want the bone to stop the bullet in its tracks.

Thanks guys

[Saiga .410]

The reason I ask about the powder load is because the 3" 410 only has a SAAMI pressure of 13,500. You said to start at 30 grains, an these slug http://gastatic.com/UserImages/91845.../wm_724098.jpg have a much higher SAAMI rating and they are using 21gr.

[turbo1889]

+What hull?
+How much powder?
+And the guy that I'm buying from uses different alloys so what should I tell him?
Remember...some expansion but not so much that it blows apart.
+Alloy needs to hold up if bone is hit. I don't want the bone to stop the bullet in its tracks.

Thanks guys

The reason I ask about the powder load is because the 3" 410 only has a SAAMI pressure of 13,500. You said to start at 30 grains, an these slug http://gastatic.com/UserImages/91845.../wm_724098.jpg have a much higher SAAMI rating and they are using 21gr.

Hull = Any 3" 410 hull except Winchester one piece compression formed hull will work (not all Win. hulls are of this type only some of them). You can use the Win. one piece compression formed as well but you need to reduce the charge by at least 10%. I personally prefer the Remington and Cheddite high brass hulls.

Powder Charge = For Reloader-7 with a 180 to 220 grain slug in a 3” straight walled hull (all 3” hulls except the noted Win. hull) I suggest a start charge of 30 grains ignited by a hot magnum primer (CCI-209M or Fed-209A). The load data you are referencing is for a 350 grain slug in a 2-1/2” hull length and the pressures of their loads (I’m familiar with that company and their rifled barrel 410 slug guns and loads) aren’t near as much over SAAMI as many people make them out to be. In fact many of their lighter lower recoil and “youth” loads are within SAAMI. A good reference point for comparison is the load data for lead shot loads using IMR-4227. To my knowledge IMR-4227 is the slowest burning powder commonly used in conventional 410 loads and R-7 is a significantly slower burning powder then IMR-4227 and the loads using IMR-4227 call for using nearly 20 grains of that powder with 11/16oz. payloads of shot (300 grains) and lead shot is known to create slightly higher pressure levels than an equal weight slug much less a lighter weight slug. In addition the company you got that link from has posted loads in the past that use more then 30 grains of R-7 powder in their full power load data. If you want to start lower go ahead it isn’t going to hurt anything but I’ve used 30 grains of R-7 as my start load for that weight range of slugs in 3” hulls without any issues for quite a while now.

Alloy = If it were me I would tell him I prefer Wheel Weight (WW) alloy plus 2-3% tin that won’t give you any expansion unless you hit bone but it is a good alloy that isn’t brittle and punches through well.

If you want some expansion then using soft pure-ish (pure-ish means close to pure and soft but not guaranteed to absolutely pure) to thin down and soften WW alloy plus the usual addition of 2-3% tin is a popular choice and allows the hardness and thus the expansion to be controlled by how much soft pure-ish lead is used the most popular mix ratios being 50/50 and 25/75 (25% soft pure-ish lead and 75% WW alloy).

Now if the guy is using commercial mix casting alloys only then “Hard-ball” alloy is a little too hard for this kind of application and is harder then the WW plus a dash of tin alloy I suggest and won’t give you any expansion for sure. “Lyman #2” is a little softer and isn’t brittle so it is a better choice then “Hard-ball” but tends to be more expensive due to its 5% tin content. “Lyman Pistol” Alloy would probably be a just about right for what you want, just a little softer then 25/75 plus tin mentioned above. “20:1” will work but will probably give you more expansion then you want and just like Lyman #2 tends to be expensive due to its higher tin content.

Long story short from your description, if he will give you any alloy you want either “25/75 + dash of tin” if he is mixing his own alloy (1 part pure-ish lead + 3 parts clip on WW alloy + 2-3% tin) or “Lyman Pistol” if he is using commercial pre-mixed alloys (95% Lead, 2.5% Antimony, & 2.5% Tin).

I personally would prefer to go harder and forget expansion and just rely on a big flat nose if I was building a bear load.

[Saiga .410]

Thank you sooooo much for walking me through this turbo!!!! You've been a great help!!! I will be purchasing the items to put 'em together, so don't forget about this thread, I'm sure I will have more questions along the way and I will keep you updated.

[Saiga .410]

if I chose from the alloys listed, what would be the closest to this?
http://www.mcb-homis.com/bren/bren_paper.jpg
that may even be a lil to much expansion

I don't need expansion so much just slight deformation.

[turbo1889]

if I chose from the alloys listed, what would be the closest to this?
http://www.mcb-homis.com/bren/bren_paper.jpg
that may even be a lil to much expansion

I don't need expansion so much just slight deformation.

Hard swaging alloy used to form slugs and other non-jacketed and half jacket type bullets is a two metal lead plus antimony alloy without any tin that is designated by the percentage of antimony content used which goes up to a maximum of 4% usually in one percent increments from base line pure lead (0%). Lyman pistol alloy is about equivalent to a 4% swaging alloy and 50/50 + a dash of tin (Soft/WW) is about equivalent to 3% swaging alloy and 75/25 + a dash of tin is a little harder then 4% swaging alloy. To my knowledge the Brenneke company has used the hardest commonly available 4% swaging alloy for their shotgun slugs ever since the very beginning where they did experiment with some softer alloys earlier on (the slug picture you linked to is a Brenneke brand name slug).

Thank you sooooo much for walking me through this turbo!!!! You've been a great help!!! I will be purchasing the items to put 'em together, so don't forget about this thread, I'm sure I will have more questions along the way and I will keep you updated.

I have it set up so I get an e-mail whenever there is a new post on this thread.

[Saiga .410]

-If its not really expanding, wont it just punch a hole through 'em, meaning I would have to track 250 yards even if its a good shot?

-For the screws, did you mean the head of the screw should be flat or the bit used to screw it in or the tip of the screw?

-How do i center the drill bit with the back of the bullet? What to hold the bullet while drilling?

-Is there gonna be alot of weight taken off from drilling it.

So far all I have is Reloader 7 powder and should be getting some more stuff soon!!!

[turbo1889]

-If its not really expanding, wont it just punch a hole through 'em, meaning I would have to track 250 yards even if its a good shot?

-For the screws, did you mean the head of the screw should be flat or the bit used to screw it in or the tip of the screw?

-How do i center the drill bit with the back of the bullet? What to hold the bullet while drilling?

-Is there gonna be alot of weight taken off from drilling it.

So far all I have is Reloader 7 powder and should be getting some more stuff soon!!!

Meplat area (the flat area on the nose of a boolit) and the fact that liquid is non-compressible is what you are depending on to give you knock down with a non-expanding flat nosed boolit shape. Basically, when the flat part of a non-expanding boolits nose hits the fluid filled body tissues the fluid cannot be compressed and is violently forced to the sides in a high energy wave not unlike the waves forced to the side by the bow of a ship this “wave” of water moving at intense and violent velocity outward in a circle from the nose of the boolit as it cuts through the body tissue is what does the tissue damage over a larger area then just the actual hole the boolit itself cuts. I will refer you to what James @ Dixie Slugs has written on the subject:

http://www.dixieslugs.com/images/Dea...eculations.pdf
http://www.dixieslugs.com/images/Lethal_Potential.pdf

And I can show you some photos from some test firing I did with some 410 slugs into wet newspaper bunks:

Here is my target box set-up:


The five rounds I fired into it on the front side:


Four of the rounds penetrated into the wet newspaper test material the fifth unfortunately just slipped over the top of them:


Here is what it looked like after I pulled the individual layers apart and laid them out:


Here are a couple close-ups where you can see the cone shape formed into the layers by the “wave” formed by the water in the paper which simulates the fluid in tissue. I should note that this was an expanding slug that expanded out to about 0.7” diameter or so which is the diameter of the holes cut all the way through the paper layers but the “wave cone” formed by the fluid displacement is much larger diameter. The same “wave cone” is formed off the nose of a non-expanding flat nosed slug and the size of that “wave cone” is directly proportional to how big of a flat area or meplat the nose of the slug has. That is why so long as you have the weight and velocity behind it a big flat nosed “boxy” shaped boolit is also the best choice for knock down power in a non-expanding boolit a flatter nose means a bigger “wave cone” coming of the nose of the boolit while it punches through the target animal.



These are the type and size of screw I am talking about:

http://wedo.hillmangroup.com/item/wo...-screws/40004?
http://wedo.hillmangroup.com/item/wo...-screws/40005?
http://wedo.hillmangroup.com/item/wo...-screws/40007?

The 3/4” length ones are available in almost any hardware store, the 1” length ones are a little harder to find and usually come in smaller packages and you end up paying slightly more per screw. The 1-1/4” length ones you won’t find in a regular hardware store and have to be ordered online or bought from a specialized fastener store. Obviously, the longer the screw the longer of a tail you can put on the slug.

As far as centering the drill bit with the back of the boolit. A whole number of methods including “eye balling it” can be used. The quickest and least intensive to build that I can suggest to you is to use a 2-1/2” low brass 410 shell case that has been fired once and is in good condition. Take your 5/64 drill bit and drill through the base of the shell through the old primer being careful to make this hole centered and straight and true. It helps if the primer strike is right on center giving you a nice place to start from but it isn’t absolutely necessary. Then use a razor knife to cut the plastic tube off about 3/8 of an inch above the brass so that the plastic part is only about 3/8” long or so. Then take a small size hose clamp easily obtained at your local auto parts store for a couple bucks and slip it over the short section of plastic. Now all you need do is insert the boolit base first into this shortened hull. Take a screw driver and tighten down the hose clamp so that the plastic tightens down around the boolit and holds it and then drill through the hole in the base being careful to keep the drill bit straight in the hole and drill to a consistent depth of a little more then a 1/4 inch or so. When drilling in lead which is a soft sticky metal don’t push down hard on the drill and just push down lightly like cutting butter and let the drill bit do the work. Then just loosen the hose clamp to release the boolit from your home-made drilling jig.

So far I have always done the holes in the nitro cards by “eye balling it”. You can use a drill but I have found that a heavy duty pliers type leather punch works best. Something like this:



And if you don't have or don't want to get yourself a leather punch like that at least to start out with a sharp nail, a hammer, and a wood block to work on is usually easier for punching a hole in the center of the nitro cards then trying to drill the hole in them.

And then when you go to assemble the slug from the boolit with the hole drilled in its base, the nitro cards with the holes punched in their center, and the #4 wood screw you can also make a jig for that out of a length of plastic tube cut from a 410 hull and another hose clamp. Put the boolit base first in one end of the tube and put the hose clamp around the outside of the tube around the boolit and tighten it down just snug enough to keep the boolit from spinning inside the tube. Then put the nitro cards in the other end of the tube and push them up against the base of the boolit nice and tight in a neat little stack and then take your screw and a #1 size philips driver bit and screw the whole thing together while it is held all nice and lined up straight and true inside that plastic tube. Then loosen the hose clamp and push you finished slug with its attached tail out of the tube and it is ready to be loaded in a live shell.

Drilling the boolit to attach the tail will remove some weight, but you will be adding the weight of the screw and the nitro cards that form the tail which will more than make up for the little bit of weight lost from drilling.

[Saiga .410]

Thanks again Turbo!! You seem to keep having the right answers for everything! I may be ordering more components tonight, so if I do I will post it tonight.