Muzzleloading hunting has officially gone too far!

[Marinekayak]

So I don't live in CT anymore but the first rifle in this is being sold by Traditions a CT based company. CT deer regulations state "During Muzzleloader Deer Seasons, a muzzleloader means a rifle or shotgun, .45 caliber minimum, incapable of firing a self-contained cartridge, using powder and a single projectile loaded separately at the muzzle end" so my read is that its not legal in CT.....Seems like an issue. I am more of a traditionalist but do own and hunt with an inline. Im not 100% opposed but not supporting this either, if you can hunt with this you should be able to hunt with a sharps or other BP non muzzleloaders.

[M-Tecs]

Hey Guys,

I'm kind of a Traditionalist myself, even though I shoot a Sabot in a 1:32 twist barrel.
Here in Minnesota, one must load through the muzzle with Black Powder or a Substitute Black Powder (not smokeless).
It is a Muzzleloader season, not a Primitive Weapon season here, even though some wish it was.
We can use a scope (with failing eyes would be a plus), Inline, Under Hammer or Side Lock.
A Sharps Percussion is not legal (as it loads from breach), nor would the above linked rifle.
However, both mentioned rifles would be perfectly legal for the Regular Firearm Season, so they're not just sitting in the closet.

AntiqueSledMan.

Smokeless is legal for muzzleloaders in MN. Page 60. https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/rlp/re...ew=fit&page=62

Since this design loads the bullet from the front I a case can be made this will be legal in MN.

[GregLaROCHE]

It’s just someone trying to get around regulations to make a buck. I’ve never understood how shooting a 12ga slug out of a rifled barrel is not shooting more than .50cal.

[mattw]

Wow, cheating! I could not even get approved to use a paper cartridge black powder rifle in Illinois. So, never fired the rifle, never learned to make rounds for it...

[sharps4590]

The nose of the camel got under the tent in the late 70's. They almost have the whole critter in the tent now. Missouri doesn't even make an attempt at muzzleloading or primitive season anymore. It's now "Alternative Season" and is a total, complete sham. You can use a Contender in 30-30, a revolver or one of those "AK Pistols" and all kinds of crap. But you can't use a Sharps loaded with black powder and cast bullets. We have complete idiots at MDC when it comes to an understanding of firearms and ballistics. The guys who busted their buns and spent their time and money to get a muzzleloading season here are turning over in their graves. 'Course, it's MDC, what do I expect?

As far as that Federal abortion, count me out but, I bet it's legal here and if it isn't, it will be.

[nicholst55]

If the sole concerns of the state are 1) increasing the deer harvest and/or 2) selling more hunting licenses and generating more revenue, then if the Firestick is not currently legal where you live, it probably will be before long.

I feel that a dedicated 'muzzleloader' season should be limited to more traditional style rifles, but that's just my personal opinion. If someone wants to use a more modern style rifle, they can use it in the normal firearms season. I prefer to hunt with a flintlock, although I do sometimes 'go modern' and use a caplock rifle.

I agree that the Firestick system should use a fixed powder charge that loads from the muzzle and utilizes a breech-seated primer IF it's going to be considered a muzzleloader. As currently designed, I don't think it's really significantly different than a breech loading rifle.

[indian joe]

The nose of the camel got under the tent in the late 70's. They almost have the whole critter in the tent now. Missouri doesn't even make an attempt at muzzleloading or primitive season anymore. It's now "Alternative Season" and is a total, complete sham. You can use a Contender in 30-30, a revolver or one of those "AK Pistols" and all kinds of crap. But you can't use a Sharps loaded with black powder and cast bullets. We have complete idiots at MDC when it comes to an understanding of firearms and ballistics. The guys who busted their buns and spent their time and money to get a muzzleloading season here are turning over in their graves. 'Course, it's MDC, what do I expect?

As far as that Federal abortion, count me out but, I bet it's legal here and if it isn't, it will be.

my read of this - hard work won a muzzleloader season intended for traditional style, front loaded, open ignition guns - bolt action, scope sighted, BS muzzle loaders were invented solely to cheat the system - at the start nobody with a traditional ML background was interested but over time some traditionalists weakened and went inline - simply a cant beat em lets join em stance -
I can kinda see the logic of not letting a feller with a sharps loose in eastern country where he could lob shot an innocent bystander three farms away but then you got blokes with inlines shooting copper jacket pointy bullets out of sabots - how much more safe is that. This ship will not right itself until the whole deal comes back to basics ie - muzzle loading charge and boolit, traditional open rear ignition - percussion cap or flintlock - not hard to draw the line and not hard to police it.

[SSGOldfart]

Fire stick looks like a plastic black powder cartridge to me. not a muzzleloader.....

[Geezer in NH]

That is not a muzzleloader. Get you arrested in NH

[rfd]

Wow.
Now who came up with that , and can call that a muzzle loader.
That ain't much different than taking a 45/70 , loading the casing Full of black powder , then shoving a projectile down the barrel.

yep, that's "breech seating" and that's what the 'firestick' isfor sure; a breech loader. NOT a muzzeloader.

this is like saying an "airbow" is a crossbow. NOT a crossbow.

[Jniedbalski]

I live in south east Missouri. The game warden said there is a huge drop of people going hunting. Not many kids going and adults staying home. My son got a doe the first day of alternate or black powder season. He could not go regular season because he is in the marines . He got a 10 day leave and it worked out perfect. He said he got out of the truck walked 25 yards went up to the fence and three doe’s where standing out in the field 20 yards away. The game warden came to the house to check it out. He did the telacheck thing on his phone before he came home. The game warden said he was the first one to shoot a deer during alternate season. He also said the deer kill is down 30to 40 % in the area and less and less people are going mostly young kids and young adults. I don’t really care what people use as long as they get out and enjoy hunting. My son used my stainless inline 50 cal. He could of used my side lock or a pistole. He got home and said that. His hunt kind of sucked and it’s over with. He was out a total of 5 minutes hunting and wanted to stay out all weekend. I remember all the talk of regular bows and recurve and compound bows and how they wanted a season for each . I really don’t care what the person over the next holler is using just go out and have fun.

[rfd]

Jniedbalski - all signs signs of the quickly changing times in America. and yet, to our young'uns, these are their good ol' days. i wish they could experience my good ol' days, but i'm a'feared those days are gone forever ...

[megasupermagnum]

If you are in a season where cartridges are allowed, then I don't see what difference it makes. Nobody would choose this over a good 45-70 anyway. If you have an honest muzzleloader season, then a breech loader is just wrong. I am a supporter of inline rifles. All they are is a better design for manufacturing. Traditional muzzleloaders were built by hand. That work is very expensive now. Not everybody can afford a fancy rifle, and I would hate to have to force someone into a cheap Lyman or Traditions, or whatever, just because some feel that a muzzleloader should be a flintlock only. Pellet powder and plastic sabot's are pushing it, but I always just let people do their thing. Maybe they will get into muzzleloading, or maybe not. But the FireStick breech loader, that's not a muzzleloader. That is just an insult, a way around regulations. It's not comparable to a rifled barrel shotgun, it's still a shotgun. You know what this is like? The TC Encore and the 308, 7mm waters, 243 etc. "handguns" being allowed in the shotgun zones.

In the end, it's going to be the sucker who buys one of these proprietary guns who will lose. After all, as other have said, it doesn't hurt me at all. I'm still just as free to use most gun as I please, and I prefer that to the western state style regulations.

[10 ga]

It's a very old technology. Used in the early Schutzen type rifles. Muzzleloader, not really.

But hey, the supreme court changed the definition of marriage.
Next the court will change the definition of abortion to include infanticide of kids up to 2 years old like is getting ready to happen in Europe and Asia. They'll do what in the H they want.

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/boo...-and-loadings/

Safety 1st, then accuracy. 10ga

[M-Tecs]

Similar but different. The false muzzle loading centerfire rifles addressed some of the accuracy issues from breech loading. They could be loaded from the muzzle or the breech. The FireStick rifles can not load the bullet from the breech.

[Dimner]

There are states that need to increase the deer harvest so I see things changing. Fewer people are hunting and the fear of CWD and TB has caused some states to ban baiting, further reducing the number of deer taken.

If it is legal, why the angst? I do not like seeing ARs during rifle season but that is my problem. BTW, I have ARs and choose not to use them on deer...it is a personal thing. My choice does not make me "better" just more traditional.

Does this offer an unfair advantage? Excuse what may be an obvious question, but I do not ML.

I'll answer the first question, with my opinion of course, and I also live in Michigan.

The angst on my part goes back to the intention of muzzloader season. There were a few reasons if I recall when ML came around. 1) season that allowed us 1970s buck skinner type fellows to hunt 2) Increased hunter participation and deer harvest 3) Continued the deer harvest (lower the #'s in the herd) with lower pressure on the deer. Possibly 4) DNR got more tag money.

The 3rd one is why ML starts after a 1 week break from Gun season.

I hate inlines. I think they should be made illegal in muzzle loader season. OR Our state should just make all firearms legal during what is now called muzzleloader season. When the inlines came around, and now the firesticks, it really makes no sense why I cannot use a 30-30. These inlines and the firestick things only benefit the gun and ammo companies. Hunters are paying to get around a law/DNR rule that was written before these were invented. Every sane hunter would never buy an inline and just use a normal rifle if it were legal.

So my 2 cents is keep it the seasons traditional or just open it all up.

[Hick]

Amazing-- someone just invented the cartridge! Next thing you know someone will come up with the brilliant idea of putting a bullet in it too.

[megasupermagnum]

You hit it on #3 why I don't want it to turn into a "primitive" season. Most guys still struggle with inline rifles, especially those who are accustomed to centerfire rifles. They are still muzzleloaders, you dump down the powder, ram a ball or bullet down, and prime. Even the best substitutes foul the bore, 777 pellets I find even worse than Goex. It still takes the work to find an accurate load, and keep your rifle reliable. I found percussion guns not one bit more difficult than my inlines, just a touch different. Flintlocks are a whole other deal, as you have to adjust your "primer" with many variables. I find #11 caps every bit as good as 209 primers. Every year I see someone fighting with a brand new rifle, either can't load it or, can't hit squat. Even the short learning cure is a learning curve. This new breech loader takes all but the fouling out of play. It's just a slow cartridge gun.


Now here is the biggest problem I have had with Minnesota's muzzleloader season, it's plain too short. Ours also has a one week break before it starts, but that does not help things. The deer do not normalize until a month after regular firearms. It has been this way for as long as I can remember. Our season is only 15 days long. Every single adult buck I have ever shot during muzzleloader season has been during the last few days. Usually I can only hunt weekends. You can kill deer during the first two weeks, but it is a real feat to kill a full grown buck. This year was no exception, besides me never getting a shot at a buck. Deer wouldn't come out until 45 minutes after dark, and I couldn't even find tracks of the buck I had been hunting up to that point. The very last day I finally got him on camera, but never got in front of him with the rifle. Bow hunting ends on December 31st. It makes no sense that muzzleloading doesn't end on the same day. It's not like everyone is out there pushing deer. It's rare I see other hunters in December. This year I didn't even hear a shot.

Anyway, sorry about that last bit. I don't want more restricting, but I want to draw the line right here. Muzzleloaders are loaded from the muzzle period.

[megasupermagnum]

Amazing-- someone just invented the cartridge! Next thing you know someone will come up with the brilliant idea of putting a bullet in it too.

One of the first thought's I had were that someone would offer a loaded cartridge conversion where they cut out the bullet stop in the bore. Since the gun is "designed to be loaded from the muzzle" it would get around the regulations farther. At least be creative Federal! If they had come out with some kind of overpriced one-piece cartridge that you stuff down the bore, I never would have said a thing. And it may have even been useful. Instead they blatantly make a cartridge gun and call it a muzzleloader.

[M-Tecs]

Wow this is getting pretty far fetched. The laws change yearly in the various states so no hard and fast statements. I am not aware of any states the allow 1859/1863 Sharps breechloader percussion as muzzloaders since the bullet loads from the breech.

The manufactures are just responding to the needs of the market. The market (in the case of hunting muzzleloaders) is determined by the individual State's Legislation.

The reality is other than a few traditional types muzzleloaders are just a required tool for an additional season. Given a choice they would they would use the most modern designs allowed by the regulations.

I would prefer period correct muzzleloaders only with the addition of optics for the older or poor vision folks. No inlines period, that being said I own and build smokeless muzzleloaders. A legal firearm is a legal firearm.

If we don't do that the next best would be to do what some states have done with the period correct cartridge's guns using straight wall cases. I would love to be able to hunt in an addition season with my original Winchester 1873, various Trapdoor Springfield's or my original 32/40 Winchester 1885.

While not common I have seen this design going back to the mid-90's. Only difference was they used 444 Marlin brass.