"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[runfiverun]

a little in the trucks gas tank won't hurt anything either.
I usually empty the boat out each fall and fill everything in the garage and dump the rest in one of the cars.

[geargnasher]

I dunno how it shoots in real heat yet, but I torture-tested Joe's lube last summer and couldn't make it fail to keep shooting excellent groups at high velocity even when the barrel was hot enough to sizzle spit and the temps were up around 105 in the shade. If we can keep the core thing under control in the with the same additive that hopefully we'll find to do the job in the cold, I don't see how the SL types we're playing with here could fail to work in the hottest weather anyone would ever be shooting in.

I'll check out the Maxima, that's what I had in mind. I've had several quarts of fancy POE and PAO two-stroke oil pass through my gun room in the past few months, sad thing is I barely have enough left for sprue plate lube, and will continue to use the cheapo semi-syn that I keep in the mower shed for the engines.

Gear

[btroj]

How many pounds of Tranny Goo have you used so far? I went to smaller batches to make my ONE pound go farther.

If interested in a little basic organic chem lab I found a site with instructions on how to de-gum castor oil. Just need some normal hexane, .1 M NaOH, and a sep funnel.. Wouldn't be difficult if a guy had the right stuff handy.

Oh, and I am happy to have post 1984. What a great year to have graduated high school.

[geargnasher]

This time in 1984 I had just turned nine.

I think I'll stick with commercial de-gummed! Heck, we're already making mineral-based sodium brick grease from scratch here! How many people have ever done that at home? I'm nearing the end of my third new pound tub, not counting the half-tub of the Dynatex stuff I started with. I was going to order five the last go, but they only had one at the regional O'reilly distribution center, so I might have to get it on-line next time since I've cleaned them out. Went to the small Ivory bars to make one more batch per pound of the AG. With the pot I'm using and the outdoor setup I switched to it's easier to make half-pound batches than small ones, and to keep the varying weight of the water in the soap a non-factor, I'm still making batches based off of the "full bar volume" of the soap. A small variance of any of the components makes a really big difference in the way the lube comes out.

Gear

[runfiverun]

in 1984 I flew from minot north Dakota to guam sitting on a bench in January.
coldest to hottest I have ever been in one trip.

[btroj]

Come on Gear, O chem lab was fun. I enjoyed all that stuff. When it was my job for a year the fun went away.........

I think the Maxima castor based stuff shows some promise. Their site says it contains additives to prevent gumming and buildp of carbon and other goo. Sounds like good stuff to me.

That stuff may eliminate the problems with laxative grade castor oil but not have the tendency to get overly slick like K2 could. It also won't, hopefully, make the paraffin get so crumbly.

Too bad the Tranny Goo doesn't come in 5 pound tubs........

[geargnasher]

Too bad it doesn't come in 5-gallon buckets!

So far, keeping at two tablespoons per pound or less, the K2 ester 2-stroke oil has NOT caused any flyers whatsoever, and in fact helped the Beta version with the cold-start flyer that even it was having. I think the SL-61 had the bad cold-start low flyer because the castor was congealing as the barrel cooled. I might have to shoot some of the paraffin/K2 mix just to see if it shoots as dry as it feels or not. If the K2 fixed it, I sure can't tell, but if it did, well that would be a GOOD thing because I know the paraffin version CAN shoot!

I'm still not done learning about some of the early iterations of this lube, so I'll continue to test the Beta and Beta+K2 as this goes along. Right now I can't decide whether to next test the beeswax/paraffin mix or make another batch of SL-62 with either more K2, Lucas, castor, or some blend of them.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Ok, here's a question for the Think Tank: Since I'm pretty sure and am operating on the premise that the ability of the lube to quickly liquify under mild pressure (yet still have decent viscosity and film strength to handle high pressure lubing duties) is key to a multipurpose product, then what do we need to do to promote the pressure-liquification when selecting a wax?

I'm assuming to change the phase of the lube we need heat from pressure, but I'm a bit fuzzy about how a brick grease that's an ISO half million at room temp can go to something like 100 in two milliseconds in a cold barrel. Is the pressure simply atomizing the lube, and the lube "dust" melting from powder heat similar to barrel leading caused by gas leaks? Or is the lube taking on heat and melting simply from 10K psi or more compressing its molecules?

I know the soap lubes such as we've been making hold a LOT of heat, take a LOT of heat to melt again, and take forever to cool off. IOW has a very, very high thermal capacity. I also know that atomized diesel fuel self-ignites at 400 PSI in the presence of oxygen due to molecular heat buildup created by the sudden 20-time volume reduction of the air in a diesel engine cylinder. "All" it takes is pressure, but sudden pressure increase=lots of heat. That and the ambient heat contained in 20 parts air at one atmosphere is now contained in one part air, so naturally the temperature is higher on account of that, too. With boolit lube, it isn't compressing in the groove, although the lube is being subjected to high pressure. What makes it go liquid so quickly? How come other formulas don't?

For example, Longhorn lube (basically equal parts beeswax, soap, and 2-stroke ester oil with some cheese wax and polybutene thrown in) is about the same viscosity or maybe even softer than SL-61, but fired from a low-pressure revolver shot huge patterns at 15 yards and threw huge lube boogers all over the target, even at point-blank range with no evidence of atomization at all. Then shoot the SL-61 at two feet distance to the target and it looked like the target was blasted with a jet of light grey spray paint from about the same distance. The only real difference in the lubes was the middle modifier of the SL-61 and lack of two-stroke oil and polybutene.

I would have thought that the two lubes would have physically acted similar with the same load due to the soap and wax being the same, but they couldn't have been more different unless the Longhorn lube had all stayed on the boolit. The Longhorn lube DID leave a sopping wet bore and wet muzzle, too. Not a star, just wet muzzle. The SL-61 went liquid on account of the mineral-oil-based Assemblee Goo (middle modifier) and (presumably) lack of polybutene and ester oil to rubberize the wax. It also left little trace in the barrel or muzzle. Interesting stuff.

So, what kind of wax are we looking for if we want to eventually do away with beeswax, or at least some of the beeswax portion?

Gear

[runfiverun]

same reason some oil stays liquid and some turns to natural gas.
time and pressure.
odd you should mention diesel fuel, it being a cousin to the parafinics.
but a thought I have is what if we are actually "using up" the lube from the throat to the muzzle like a motor fuel burning off.
like was mentioned it gets softer when you apply heat and work it a little.
the further you go the softer/more liquid it becomes.
except like when we make it, it starts gassing off at some point in the temperature/pressure window.
we can put direct flame to straight ivory and it doesn't turn liquid and drip off, put it to the made lube and watch it go full liquid, and leave a little residue behind.
that residue looks similar to brads muzzle.

[btroj]

One of the great things about beeswax is the fact it is naturally a bit tacky. It helps hold the line together and on to the bullet. The paraffin only lube I made was so dry it was tough to get it to stay in the grooves. I think we need a wax, or mix or waxes, that has some stickiness to it.

I wonder if melt point of the wax really matters much. We can add paraffin or beeswax to the lube and when we heat the lube to their melt point the lube doesn't melt or fall apart. makes me wonder if the softer, lower melt point microwaves wouldn't work. Looking online it seems they are a bit softer and tackier than the higher melt point waxes. I don't think they would make a lube that would rapidly go soft, the soap seems to prevent that from happening. We also must not forget why stearic acid is added to paraffin for candle making. It makes the candles harder and gives a higher melt point. We are adding a bunch of stearate to our wax, think of what it does to the melt point.

I think it is more pressure than heat making the transition from solid to liquid. I can take any of these and by simply working for a few seconds between finger and thumb it softens and becomes for pliable. Reminds me of modeling clay a bit. It isn't the heat from my fingers as little time elapses for heat transfer, it is the sheer forces. Face it, these lubes are a bit thixotropic. Harde at rest, softens with sheer force added. I think this is a good thing. Stiffer under storage or at rest in a cartridge. Add a sheer force, like the engagement of riflling, and we start to liquefy.

Now another question. If pressure and sheer force is what causes it to liquefy or at least soften significantly, when does it happen? Is the lube a solid as it leaves the case neck and enters the throat?m I think it is, no pressure has really started to work on it yet. Is it really pressure that matters or the sheer forces? Hmmmmm. Being a solid entering the throat is good, prevents liquified lube from being blown down the barrel ahead so much and also will help form a good barrel seal at a time when it is needed most.

So, the wax needed. Microwax is nice because it holds oil better. We aren't adding much oil and almost any wax, with a bit of modification via mineral oil or Vaseline, will hold what little oil we use. Microwax also has the property of coming in a variety of melt points. Again, is that really beneficial to us? Is melting of the lube under storage a concern with these lubes? Beeswax is nice, has that stickiness to it. Beeswax lubes do have a tendency to stay on bullets a bit too good, I had SL61 lube boogers on a 100 yard target, not good at all.

I think either a paraffin/ beeswax blend or a mix or microwaxes and or paraffin will be best. We need a mix that is dry enough for good lube jettison yet has enough tackiness to easily hold onto bullets and be workable. It is a matter of balancing dry and crumbly vs soft and tacky. Some sort of mix will do it best, or at least with the least need for addition of other modifiers. I think reducing need for extra ingredients to modify the waxes properties is also good. That means picki the right waxes or mix up front.

Don't know if that helps or not Gear. Just sort of a rambling thought.

[Doc Highwall]

First of all I want to express my gratitude to everyone on this thread!!!!!
I have been following it from the beginning with great interest and learning at the same time.

One thing that was mentioned was using a wood based type powder filler or something else similar being used because it was not affected by temperature, also C.O.R.E. (I forget what it stands for, but I know it is the condition of the bore after shooting)

Now to point, have you thought of adding a small amount of graphite or moly to the lube like .001% for what will be left in the bore. I am thinking of this in the back of my mind because neither of these are going to be affected by the temperature and the discussion seems to be getting closer to the C.O.R.E. issue.

[runfiverun]

yeah a metal is definatly on the list.
I think it would be an enhancer more than a direct participant.
the metals do bring something to the game by bolstering the lube, filling it up as it were.
for a more dry lube we have discussed graphite, and hbn quite a bit.
I have graphite here, and have been poking around a bit on some small batches looking for the balance of oils and waxes to try it in.

I right now like my first version with the b-wax, and a balanced version of two waxes seems right.
my earlier gel tests seemed to indicate this mix is the way to go too.
just adding 10% soy wax would add another level of softness and glide to the lube that would make it possible to replace some of the oils.
it would help with jettison of the b-wax lube too.

[geargnasher]

Doc, the dry lube additives are certainly on the "to try" list with the SL series in particular. Now that we have a temp-stable base that's very dry in all conditions, a dry lube might fix it the rest of the way. Right now several of us are playing around with small amounts of lube additives that we deliberately want the lube to leave in the bore. That's possible with a base that doesn't leave much of anything behind itself.

Gear

[357maximum]

My best effort using the basic GearGoo ingredients thus far:
BY WEIGHT*
2parts Tranny Goo (1000Grains)
1 part Ivory Soap (500 grains)
---------added after heat removal------as the Micro was just as obstinate about uuber heat as the beeswax----
2 parts microwax #430 (1000 grains)
1 part beeswax (500 grains)

It even worked in my "borderline" loads Is it perfect and does it encompass all that everyone wants?...NO....

I am happy to have another workable ingredient to play with though, and it still could use some playing for MY USES. The best thing about this thtread is that I never would have found the tranny goo on my own...so thank you for another ingredient.....and please feel free to brow beat me anytime you want about being too low on the soap content or anything else I did improperly....I could not make the uuber high soap/ goo shoot right for my guns. I'll go back to my Michigan lube only corner now.

[Marlin Junky]

Hey Mike's back!

Wow, more BW-430 than beeswax and no paraffin... my world doesn't make sense any longer... please explain before the white-coats kick in the front door.

Just an FYI for all you desert rats... I have found a source for 160F paraffin and am awaiting samples and prices. The downside is that I've got to purchase over 50 pounds at a time. Therefore, if anyone is interested, PM me.

MJ

[Edubya]

Face it, these lubes are a bit thixotropic.

That was a strange word to me. I had to Google it to find the definition and what other possibilities for a supplement. I learned that there are a lot of other fluids, including, joint cushion and semen that are thixotropic! Viscosity lightens under pressure.

EW

[Doc Highwall]

Thanks for the reply Gear!

[btroj]

Thixotropic mixtures are a good thing. Ketchup is a good example, we shake ketchup to make if flow better. In suspensions it is good as it helps prevent settling.

MJ, I don't think a high melt point wax is required. Candle makers add stearate to increase paraffins melt point. A few percent makes it melt at upwards of 30 or 40 degrees higher. We have way more stearate than that. These lies just plain don't melt at any real temps we might ever see around ammo. I don't store my ammo anyplace that might get near 400 degrees and event he the lube is just softened, not melted of running.

[geargnasher]

We've been throwing around the Thixotropic word for a while Edubya, seemed appropriate to describe work-softening of greases because that's what the tribologists (lubrication engineers) call it.

Mike, I noticed something with your "so-so" formula there that probably had more effect than swaperooing the proportions and adding microwax: You didn't add any lube oils. We are well-aware that the SL-61, which is what you made first I believe upon my original (and erroneous) recommendation, throws first shot flyers like mad, and subsequent testing with identical lube minus the mineral and castor oil (the Beta version) shot much better. I should have tested the SL-61 more before throwing it out there, but the initial two weekend sessions with it in a variety of guns showed great promise, right until the temp dropped below 60F and the cold flyers showed up.

We're being more cautious about slickum additives, but having tested oil-free versions with two different waxes I can say that the soap, wax, and AG alone are not enough to do all the job of lubing, although they do everything else quite nicely. The microwax might add a touch of lubricity that makes it come together, but I doubt it.

I'm going to continue to flail through the lubricity additive spectrum and keep playing with different waxes. This has gotten so "cutting edge" that there just doesn't seem to be any reference material to help out, it's down to just picking waxes and oils that seem like they'd work and wringing them out systematically.

Gear

[geargnasher]

If you go much below 30% soap, the lube can get runny enough to flow at 150F. Inside car temps can get upwards of 180F in a parking lot in the Texas summer. I don't want the lube in the grooves of the ammo in the magazine of my carry pistol that stays in the car sometimes to run into the powder. Right now I use factory j-words to combat that issue. There are lots of "normal" instances where ammunition can be subjected to temps that melt beeswax, and the soap cures this issue. If you never subject your ammo to temps higher than 130F, then just about any lube will do.

I called the lube that this quest seeks "Extreme" for a reason. Some may not see all of my particular reasons for seeking what qualities I do for lube, but I'm after a lot more than just accuracy. The SL series handles the conditions, it just needs tuning for accuracy. Accuracy ALONE is not the Quest. If I was just after accuracy, I never would have started this and would be perfectly content with my summer/winter versions of Felix lube, which DO give me the accuracy I seek when other lubes do not.

Gear