CCW ammo, factory vs handloads

[9.3X62AL]

Pretty decent summation, MM. 98% of the real world has similar outlooks. It's the fringes of reality where idiots spout drivel and that drivel starts to reproduce. Add on the compassion fascists and bottom-feeding advocate-class, and reality gets bent severely.

[DerekP Houston]

Good to know, thanks gents! I'm going to switch back to my turret press for 'carry' ammo and I'll use the jacketed bullets just so i can keep them separated for now. A FTF here and there doesn't bug me with my cheap components but something I'd like to avoid with carry ammo. Will run a few additional tests when i get back next weekend and take some to the range. Appreciate everyone chiming in here good food for thought.

[Texas by God]

My thoughts on the matter- .380 and below I woud use factory imported fmj ammo (hotter) for penetration. 9mm and above I like Hornady Critical Defense. I tested it by shooting down into 5 gallon buckets of water from 10' above. Consistent perforance and the .45 acp will break the bucket from hydraulic force. It's cheap enough to defend my life with. Reloads for play and hunting, factory for defense.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Walkingwolf]

I carry anything that gets the fudds panties in a twist. I'm just like that though.

[DerekP Houston]

apparently I need to do inventory more often, down to my last box of carry ammo for the 38's too. At least the prices are back down to normal now, last time I ordered was ~3 years ago. Don't think casting has really saved me any money though I just shoot more.

[tazman]

Don't think casting has really saved me any money though I just shoot more.

Ain't that the truth. My wife constantly reminds me about how much reloading was going to save me.

[9.3X62AL]

Well, the "Shoot more" part of the picture was the object all along.

[dragon813gt]

Anyone that got into casting/reloading to save money was fooling themselves. I could have bought countless tens of thousands of rounds for what I've spent on tooling. But I like being self sufficient.

[sqlbullet]

I always tell people that getting into reloading/casting is at best a shoot more for the same money situation, and often just a new hobby.

But...Truth be told I lucked into a good situation with a lead supply and I probably make money now overall. However, I worked hard to cultivate contacts and create this situation.

As far as handloads for carry loads, I pattern my handloads after pull down data from boutique ammo makers that use starline brass. Not sure how you can tell if the loads in my gun were loaded by me or by buffalo bore.

[CASTER OF LEAD]

Anyone that got into casting/reloading to save money was fooling themselves. I could have bought countless tens of thousands of rounds for what I've spent on tooling. But I like being self sufficient.

Same here. I lied to myself ,knowing darn good and well I wasn't gonna save any money. I guess in hind sight self sufficiency was my goal all along. Plus I get to tinker with different equipment, work up experiments, and it's kinda like a therapeutic effect to boot. - CASTER

[charlie b]

I agree with a couple of folks.

.380 (or 9mm MAK in my case) load with hardball of some type. I use the Buffalo Bore because I also carry it in the field. If not that then factory (foreign) loads. As noted the .380 hollow points just don't have enough penetration, unless they don't open up.

For the other pistols I just ask what the local cops carry and use it. By the same reasoning I used to carry 158gn SWC in my .38spl (FBI load).

Reloads? Only for the range or hunting. YMMV.

[9.3X62AL]

but if you use the same gun and ammo as the local cops do, aren't you just going to be accused of being a nutjob who thinks hes a cop?

Allegations are easy. Proof is a tougher nut to crack. And printer's ink is cheap. I haven't subscribed to a newspaper since January 1997, and cancelled the day after the local birdcage liner splashed the front page with the color photo of our two murdered deputies as found on the scene of their death. Newswhores will say and do ANYTHING to boost circulation. Pay them no mind, and same goes for the bottom-feeding bar card holder that sues you when the dust settles. Get insured by NRA if you CCW, use good judgement, and you will be largely attorney-proof. Aquarium owners have little suckerfish in their tanks to keep things tidy--view CCW insurance coverage in that light. Many homeowner's insurance policies cover events occurring inside your residence and on your property--most have "riders" you can amend the coverage with to include public CCW.

If it comes to that, say "I use the loads authorized by the local law agency because if those loads are good enough for their purposes--saving their lives--then the same ammo should be appropriate for citizens." Assuming the issue ammo is available over the counter--and it almost always is--have at it. My old shop issues Winchester White Box HPs.......180 grainers in 40 S&W, and 230 grainers in 45 ACP. Again--in my 28 years doing cop work, the question of factory load/handload never came up, the sole focus of the prosecutor was whether the shooting was justified. IME, most prosecutors give considerable benefit of doubt to citizens engaged in lawful activities who are set upon by predators with lethal/great bodily harm inflicted or attempted.

[robertbank]

Just a note from above the 49th. If your life is threatened and you were to kill the BG the only question is in our courts..."Was the individuals life threatened?. If it was then the crown cannot put itself in the place of he/she who was threatened - a very old English common law concept and claim life was not threatened enough to justify killing the BG. That said the test is reasonable as it relates to being threatened. A BG saying is going to kill you and has no object in hand to do so would be a tougher call than a fellow brandishing a knife and advancing on you. In short an obvious defensive encounter is the test. If the BG is running away from you, your life isn't being threatened so shooting the BG as he leaves the scene is not a good idea. Our Bill of Rights does not include Property Rights so stealing your son's bicycle is not grounds to shoot the individual who is stealing the bike.

The Castle Principle is, again embedded in English Common Law so when it comes to defending yourself in your own home - the Law is clear. You can take any means necessary to defend yourself. I have a friend who is retired Judge and I think that is as good of description as he likely would give after a few beers.

I can't recall a report of any incident where an individual killed someone up here while being attacked by an individual. There surely must be cases, I just have not heard of any. We only have 550 ish murders up here on any given year and those that involve firearms ( about 150 per year IIRC) are mostly drug dealers arguing over who should be standing on which street corner.

I tend to think some of the examples folks tend to worry about are red herrings. If it is a legal shoot you walk, if not you don't.

Take care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

Bob--

Canada's standard seems to be identical to my agency's policy on use of lethal force, and the citizen standard is practically identical. The USA and the States plagiarized the living daylights out of English Common Law, for good reason--it was well thought-out. Problems result when tyrants try using the shield the law provides as a sword, which is why we parted company with Britain. No sooner than that was accomplished, we adopted much of the Old Country's best ideas and put them in motion. Go figure. Americans are a rebellious lot, but consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.

Allowances are made for private citizens that a law officer might not receive, including retired duffers like me. There is a higher expectation of restraint on the part of trained officers, and that is reasonable. As always, avoidance is the best policy if at all possible. Take the truck--steal the yard furniture. They won't get into the safe with the war toys and jewelry. I don't want to shoot some dweeb over property, esp. if he's running away. Not my problem any more. Losses like that are why I carry insurance. I would be reluctant to shoot someone in my house unless he/she was armed, and if the perp just ran off I still wouldn't fire. I sleep with enough ghosts as it is.

[tazman]

If I remember correctly, here in Illinois, years ago, you were required to retreat if there was any option at all to do so. So if you shot anyone, even inside your home, and had a possible escape path and didn't use it, you were considered at fault. Manslaughter charges at the least. You couldn't even claim you were in fear for your life. That was reserved for police officers. You had to run.
Things have changed here in recent years. We still don't have a Castle Doctrine that I am aware of, but at least you can defend yourself.
I would love to be proved wrong about these statements but this is how I remember it.

[Petrol & Powder]

This discussion seems to come up with some regular frequency.

Getting back to the OP's issue with Failure to Fire and handloads - this is generally a result of primers that aren't seated fully or oil contamination of the primer (in the case of an ammunition failure) OR insufficient firing pin protrusion and/or force (in the case of a firearm failure)

As 9.3x62AL pointed out, failures of factory ammunition are rare and when it does occur, the firearm is more likely the issue. When we switch to handloads, the failures tend to be attributed to the ammunition more often and are usually due to improperly seated primers.

I agree with 9.3x9862AL that one of the huge advantages of factory ammo is the sealant applied to the case mouth and primer. Metallic cartridges are reasonably waterproof & oil resistant to start with but the sealants used in factory loaded ammo is a plus.

Now, with that out of the way - let's talk about the criminal and civil liability of handloaded ammo.

I totally agree that a justified use of force is a justified use of force. In the criminal arena, the type of ammunition is very likely to be a non-issue.

In the CIVIL arena it is LIKELY to ultimately be a non-issue in the end BUT ; why fight that battle if you don't have to?

A lot of people have some difficulty understanding the difference between criminal and civil law.

If someone uses deadly force, they will come under scrutiny. That scrutiny will include the potential of criminal prosecution (but not the certainty of criminal prosecution) AND the potential of a civil action.

It is impossible to prevent someone from suing you. They may not be able to successfully sue you but there is NOTHING that you can do to prevent a lawsuit. The goal isn't to prevent a lawsuit because it is absolutely impossible to prevent a lawsuit. The goal is to prevent a SUCCESSFUL lawsuit. With that in mind, the type of ammunition used will probably not be a significant factor in a civil suit but why even open that door ?

OK, moving on.

The .380 auto cartridge - There was a time when the .380 was the best you could do in a small, blowback, semi-auto pistol. The limitation wasn't the cartridge but rather the guns that were available. If you were confined to a small, lightweight, concealable semi-auto pistol; the .380 Auto was about the most potent cartridge that could be chambered in those small guns.
Times changed and we now have small locked breach semi-autos chambered in 9mm Luger and larger calibers. The selection of small GUNS got better.

So we now have better options in small guns. The .380 is a fine cartridge but we have more choices now.

Any ammunition carried in a self defense firearm needs to be as reliable as possible and as effective as possible.
We have a lot of commercially available ammunition that fits that criteria.

[Rick Hodges]

In 31 years in law enforcement, being involved with criminal and civil suits arising from use of force and shootings, both justified and not.....the only place I have ever seen or heard of the issue of handloaded v factory ammo was in a magazine piece by a shill who touts the be an expert while making money selling his brand of factory ammo and the pages of websites. Nobody has ever shown an actual case.....where the determining factor in either criminal or civil cases was whether or not factory or non factory ammo was used. We seem to love to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[dragon813gt]

We seem to love to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Three, now don't try to tell me otherwise

[9.3X62AL]

In 31 years in law enforcement, being involved with criminal and civil suits arising from use of force and shootings, both justified and not.....the only place I have ever seen or heard of the issue of handloaded v factory ammo was in a magazine piece by a shill who touts the be an expert while making money selling his brand of factory ammo and the pages of websites. Nobody has ever shown an actual case.....where the determining factor in either criminal or civil cases was whether or not factory or non factory ammo was used. We seem to love to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I know EXACTLY who you are describing as a "shill". If that fraud could be purchased at actual value and sold at perceived worth, the profit margin would be decadent.

[Walkingwolf]

I know EXACTLY who you are describing as a "shill". If that fraud could be purchased at actual value and sold at perceived worth, the profit margin would be decadent.

Whoever it is, he is a boob.