PS
to above
No Low number rifles were sold to China under lend lease.
Any that 1903s that were sent would have been a drop in the bucket compared to the huge numbers of rifles supplied to China by anyone and everyone including Germany.
According to William S Brophy all Springfields that were sent to China were serial numbered over 800,000.
I believe you are referring to the information he recorded on pages 149-150 of his book. What Col. Brophy addressed was 1903s given to Taiwan.
Consider this: Chang and the Nationalist Army were active in China long before the culmination of their civil war when Chang was booted off the mainland to Taiwan. The Nationalists put their war with the Communists on hold for several years while fighting against the Japanese during which time they received an immense amount of US Aid. The newly made Remington 1903s were not yet manufactured early on. Taiwan did not become a separate political entity until Chang's exile from the mainland. If low number 1903s were given to Chang while he was still on the mainland none of them made it to Taiwan unless a soldier evacuated to there happened to be holding one.
Between Springfield and Rock Island just a bit over one million low number 1903s were made of suspect heat treatment. One million of anything is a lot. Where did they go? Sure...here and there. One runs into them now and then at gun shows, neighbor's collection, Mr. Humble, etc., but by rights they should be much more common than they are. If you will take the time to re-read Post #46 you'll find out where two of them are. At the time I acquired them I phoned and asked where they had come from. I don't believe they lied to me. This was the time period when all of the Broomhandles were coming in from China in surprising quantities, and deals were being made with the cash hungry Chinese for just about any scrap metal that they wished to sell.
Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you or start one of those repetitious exchanges, just pointing out that they went somewhere, didn't they? I thought it interesting that the 1903s of later manufacture that Lt. Col. Brophy says went to Taiwan had the "Hatcher hole" drilled in the left side of the receiver. He doesn't mention that for the other recipients, but specifically does mention it for those sent to Taiwan. Now there's a mystery....could it be that the Taiwanese were leery of them after bad low number 1903 experiences on the mainland? Well, that of course is just speculation.
One more thing which it would be hard to prove at this late date. When I was a teenager and very much fascinated by guns and the military (gee--I guess the only thing that changed is that I'm not a teenager anymore!) I had a high school friend who had an uncle who was a Lt. Col. in the army. He (the uncle) was sent to China to evaluate the Nationalist Army and make a report on their military preparedness and effectiveness. This was just before WW II, although it might have been after the Japanese had invaded Manchuria. The uncle made two copies, one of which he kept, and which my friend had come into possession of after the uncle's death. This copy was very much like a scrapbook/photo album with original typewritten text and actual photos, some cropped to fit into spaces, etc. It was absolutely fascinating to look at (which I did more than once!) and showed the regiments that had been trained by the Germans (considered their best) who were equipped with Mauser rifles and coal bucket helmets. There was also an American trained regiment wearing the WW I doughboy helmets and carrying M1903 Springfield rifles. Again, this would predate the manufacturer of the new Remingtons. You'll have to take my word for it, or not if you wish. I'm glad to write things like this down though, because us old guys pass away and recollections like this are lost if not recorded.
DG
Edit/P.S. My two specimens weren't just a fluke, because obviously Fed Ord had enough of them to advertise them in their Shotgun News ad for a couple of months and sell them nationwide. So they must have obtained at least a couple of hundred, and maybe a couple of thousand, and they came from Communist China. That also reminds me that I have read (somewhere?) years ago about how US weapons given to the Nationalists were used against us in Korea, including M1903s. If that was indeed the case the Remingtons would have been in Nationalist hands on Taiwan and not in the hands of the Chicoms--so which 1903s were they?
Last edited by Der Gebirgsjager; 12-17-2016 at 09:20 PM. Reason: Add info
You make very good points.
I've read of M1917 rifles used by China being re barreled or rebored and set back and chambered to 7.92x57 but have seen nothing on any Springfield rifles receiving the same treatment. The US cut off all surplies of .30-06 ammunition to China in the closing months of the war, Britain also curtailed shipments of No.4 Longbranch rifles and .303 ammunition. Apparently the love affair was over with the Chinese at that point.
I'd like to see some figures on how many 1903 rifles were actually sent to China before the Reds took over. There couldn't have been that many.
In the late 30's and early 40's National Guard companies often had their 1903 rifles confiscated to be replaced by M1917 rifles, some managed to hold onto their best rifles by sending in beat up drill rifles instead. There certainly weren't enough good condition 03 rifles for second line issue or they wouldn't have issued so many M1917 rifles to service troops and the like. The USAF used M1917 rifles for training and guard duty almost exclusively.
China had many sources for firearms of all sorts.
Before you mentioned it I had completely forgotten that they ever had any Springfield rifles at all.
Chinese volunteers under Jolting Joe Stillwell used the M1917.
South Korean troops post WW2 used ex USMC Springfields as well as a few Johnson rifles along with their mixed bag of rebarreled Arisakas and other rifles.
Its not unlikely that a low number Springfield with Hatcher hole found in China was captured from Korean or US troops in the 50's.
You are absolutely correct about 1917s being used by China. I have seen photos of them in the hands of Chinese troops. One place where I think one or two such photos can be found is in the Time-Life series about WW II, China-India-Burma. I hope, in discussing 1917s, we haven't polluted the thread beyond repair. It was only a month or two ago that I learned that approx. 1/3 of all the 1917s remaining in inventory after WW I were sent as aid to Britain in WW II. I believe that they were intended to arm the Home Guard. That must have been a very great number of rifles, but it seems like they mostly used the P-14 as a substitute as needed, and while they made some use of the 1917s it was nothing on the order of what one would expect. I know some were returned as surplus with painted markings on the stocks to indicate that they used a different cartridge than .303, but just a relative few. I have run across no real account of what happened to them after they went to Britain. Perhaps they were passed along to their possessions, but by now they should have hit the surplus market. Perhaps some were lost to U Boats in transit, but many must have survived the war, as it would have been something on the order of over a million rifles. Maybe the Brits, in their anti-gun and disarmament fervor, dumped them in the ocean after the war.
The British supplied many M1917 rifles to the Irish Land Defense Force. This led to some confusion because the Irish put these down in their books as .300 Springfield rifles because they were going by the cartridge designation rather than the model of rifle.
I've seen nothing on the net about Springfields used by South Korea and only vaguely remember reading that quite a few 1903 Mk1 rifles were sent there at some point along with a few Johnson rifles. At least some ROK regulars were armed with Garands as early as 1949, but I can find nothing on the percentages. If they had enough Garands to arm the entire army they wouldn't have had to convert captured Japanese rifles.
Asian countries seem to have been armed with a hodge podge of weaponry. Thailand for example used .303 SMLE rifles built on order by BSA , Springfields gifted from the USA, Japanese manufactured special ordered Arisaka rifles chambered for the Siamese 8mm, and postwar conversions of the Arisaka to .30-06.
A large quantity of 1917s went to the Philippines prior to WW2.
"A large quantity of 1917s went to the Philippines prior to WW2. "
I've read an account by an American POW where he told of the Japanese using conscripted Filipino as guards at prison camps, especially on road crews. He wrote that the guards were armed with captured M1917 rifles. They also armed some prison camp guards with captured SMLE rifles and issued some to police in occupied countries. Never heard of them using Springfields even for constabulary or conscripts. Its possible that US troops destroyed most of their rifles before capture or the Japanese were not able to capture enough .30-06 ammunition to make issuing them feasible.
Actually, very little equipment was destroyed prior to the surrender on Bataan. Several ammo dumps were blown up but tons remained untouched. A huge quantity of small arms, machine guns and artillery were captured. At one point POWS were sent back down to Bataan to gather up discarded weapons including Garands, Springfields and Enfields. I've never heard of Filipino camp guards but I suppose it's possible. If they were issued 1917s it was probably because they happened to be on hand. It would be ironic because they were not popular with Filipino troops
beause they were known to have weak extractors that broke easily.
If Ammunition dumps were blown up but Machineguns were captured intact the Japanese may have reserved the remaining captured .30-06 ammunition for use with the MGs.
The Japanese ammunition supply lines were already complicated enough due to their use of perhaps five non interchangeable rifle caliber 6.5 and 7.7 rounds, some suited only for MG use. They could use captured .303 ammunition in their copy of the Lewis Gun which they used on some aircraft but the only .30-06 guns they had were captured or salvaged weapons and they don't seem to have used these in combat.
They could have used their own 7.7mm rimmed MG cartridge in captured Vickers or Bren Guns if available.
A member of another board, who I believe has frequented this board in the past, posted a scan of an old Federal Ordnance advertisement for Springfield rifles found in storage in the Phillipines and believed to be rifles captured at Bataan. The rifles were completely refurbished before being offered for sale, suggesting these were in pretty sad condition when recovered.
Well it's clear to we the dolts that Multigunner is the EXPERT on the subject. Don't be concerned that he can produce no CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNTS of exploding 03's, that he hasn't actually run a statistical model of Hatcher's data, that he hasn't examined the causes of failure, that he probably does not own any low # guns or Sedgleys ...... need I go on? He is the expert and that's it ! Go to ANY internet site, regardless of the topic and you'll find the expert who can reparrot what someone else has said with no critical analysis. As for the 03' sporter built at Mauser Werke, you too can own a full size copy of the original plans as I own them as well as pictures of the actual rifle. http://www.gunauction.com/buy/14060855 Now you can build an exact replica ..... just don't use a low # action as it will blow up !
"Now you can build an exact replica ..... just don't use a low # action as it will blow up !
Good to know as I sure don't want to blow myself up!Merry Christmas and good will to all.
Charter Member #148
Humble you have consistently used stawman arguments that are counter productive to whatever you imagine to be your position on this question.
You failed to notice that I never made the claims that you seem to believe everyone makes about these rifles and I've only gone by the known and researched testing done when the problems first cropped up and Hatcher's compiled information of Low Number receiver failures.
The Sedgley rifle receivers were re heat treated and rifles brought to him by customers could be re heat treated on demand if they so desired.
The Ordnance reports suggested re heat treatment of all Low number rifles but this was not feasible and probably would not have rectified the worst of these.
Personally I'd have no problem in using a USMC modified low number Springfield with Hatcher Hole for safer venting of gas in the case of a casehead failure. They knew what they were doing and knew there were very good reasons for doing this.
Earlier someone mentioned the Bannermann rifles chambered in .303. I would like to add that the Rifles Bannerman sent to England during WW1 were deemed unfit for firing and used only as Drill rifles, then ordered destroyed in 1916, only a few escaped the chopper.
Your rantings are like a early 60's model Corvair owner claiming the rear suspension system had no faults because they themselves never turned a corner too fast in one.
Without a non destructive method of determining if a receiver was burnt and brittle any use of a Low Number Springfield 1903 that doesn't have a known recent history is a risk.
At least one board member managed to blow up his nice old Sporting rifle built on one of these receivers some years ago. I don't know if the images and posts on this are available in the archives. As I remember it the action shattered in the manner common to LN failures.
With the passage of many decades we can hope that the vast majority of the unknown percentage of defective receivers no longer exist, but with old sporters and such being dug out of closets and rifles in used for decades being found at estate sales there's likely to be a few out there that have run out their clock.
Not to mention those Low Number rifles welded up as drill rifles pre WW2 but reactivated in recent years. I can remember a visitor whining about buying one of those a few years back, the receiver ring cracking so the barrel could be unscrewed by hand.
Dear Mr. Not-So-Humble, I have to support Multigunner in this matter. If you re-read his posts you will not find him to be among the more vociferous critics of the Low Number Springfields. His discussions and points are reasonable. Whereas some critics have said, "Never, no way, not under any circumstances", his position has been more "It's up to you, be careful, be informed." It's really quite amazing that his argument still has contributors after currently 15 pages. It has pretty much all been said--again, and again. By the way, you have some very nice rifles in your collection. Happy holidays.
DG
So many, many errors. 03s used as drill rifles were not welded up. I've have seen 100+ over the years at different Legion and VFW Posts. None were welded, they were as issued but, sad to say, they all had terrible bores from corrosive blanks. The welded guns, as used by the Arlington guards of honor are all 03A3s that have need nickle/chrome plated. 1000s of low number guns were rebuilt due to needs of WWII. Not rare to find them with 40s dated barrels, newer wood and bolts. Somw ent to war, many were used as guard guns at defense plants and POW camps (as were P17s). I have been collecting 03s for 5 decades plus and am well informed.
In spite of all the blather to the contrary, there are is no contemporary research on low # rifles nor ONE iota of evidence that a properly headspaced low number with modern ammo has ever or will ever blow up. Were I a novice sitting at the throne of a real expert in the field, I would be "humble". When it is obvious that I know whereof I speak, false humility is uncalled for. And BTW. P14/17 extractors are not fragile. Numerous custom rifles built on these actions for cartridges requiring far more extraction than a 303/30-06 testify to the contrary. Ever see a Southgate Weatherby in 300 WM built on a P-14 ? Thought not.
Well, it's nice to be an expert in a certain field, which you are, but one can be nice when sharing their expertise. Lots of folks here are tactful, but some rather abrasive.Now I am one who pretty much sides with you on the safety and serviceability of the low number Springfields, but the only expertise on the subject I can claim is that I own and shoot two of them without problems, have known others that used them without incident, and that logic tells me that if there were any originally that were bad they are long gone.
I did live in the L.A. area '69-'72 and did drop in on Weatherby occasionally, but personally never cared for the Weatherby rifles. They had other stuff of interest though. Nope, never saw a P-14 .300 WM, but I'm sure the 14-17 Enfield actions were up to the task, as I've seen them in other magnum calibers, especially .300 Win. Mag. Converted a few of the '17s to .300 Win. Mag. myself.
As far as personal experience goes, you're dead on about the rifles used by VFW honor guard details. We buried a Viet Nam vet friend of mine back around 2002 and the detail showed up to fire the 3 volleys. Bores were awful. Guess the necessity to clean them didn't carry over from active service.
I prefer "correct" to "abrasive'. As in Donald Trump is correct in his plan to restore the country from Obuma's 8 years of loon driven government.
I have been dealing with the "NRA Hatcher" party line for almost 6 decades and have totally run out of any patience for people who quote garbage with no facts to back up their babble. It's just a worse version of the current BS about short actions and WSMs etc being superior to the originals. When I wanted advice on getting into powder coating, I came here to people who had actually done it, not to some guy down at the gun club who had a brother-in-law who knew a guy who worked at a company that sold powder coating ovens.
TO REPEAT: Nobody has yet to produce a fully documented, witnessed case of any low # 03 with proper headspace and good ammo blowing up. I once owned a Sedgley 270 (stippiled receiver ring) that had the usual Winchester barrel. It had been shot so much, it had a lot of throat erosion. Now the 270 WCF is a lot hotter than a WW I 30-06 round. Yet this rifle had great headspace, was rebored to 35 Whelen and is still shooting.
TO REPEAT # 2: Anyone who has a 100% original low # 03 or any sporter made by a recognized gun firm of the period AND is afraid to shoot it, I'll take it off your hands and put $500 in your piggy bank.
Has anyone noticed that none of our "experts" has yet to produce any modern, documented, witnessed blow up photos ? chuckle !
I will continue to shoot my low number Springfield without any doubts to its safety.
I don't have a low number Springfield but I will continue shoot my Trapdoors, Krags and M1 Garands. Just like the low numbers Springfield the TD's and Krag's don't have the same safety margins the modern designs and materials offer.
The M1 Garand's have been pulled from military honor guard's due to some blowing up. Who has stopped shooting their M1's???????????
Would I chamber a low number for a 300 Weatherby mag? No, but just like other designs that have had some issues I would/continue to shoot reasonable loads in them.
Drill rifles, with steel rods welded into the muzzle, the barrel then welded to the receiver ring, and the magazine cut off welded shut, and blank firing honor guard rifles are two very different things.
Some 03 drill rifles have been found with only the muzzle welded shut, which is an accident waiting to happen.
I've read the instructions for welding up drill rifles, both 1903 and 1903A3 rifles have been deactivated by this method.
http://www.odcmp.org/202/drill_inc.asp
"The "low number" receivers are already of questionable strength and the weld and heat affected zone weaken them even further. Double heat treated receivers are originally much stronger but are made of exactly the same material as the low number receivers. The only difference is the heat treatment, which is destroyed when the receiver is welded. There is no difference in the two types after the weld. Both are totally unsuitable for use. Late NS and A3 receivers probably aren't quite as susceptible to the weld heat but are certainly weakened by alloying with an unknown rod type and heating to molten temperatures in a small area, then allowed to cool in an uncontrolled environment. Don't take a chance. Your eyes are worth more than you'd spend on a safe receiver.
In the last box of barreled receivers I sorted, there were no less than four broken receivers and one barrel which had broken off at the weld. Two of the broken receivers were A3s. All breaks were fractures with no sign of bending. I'm not a metallurgical engineer (although I am a retired Professional Engineer) but, to me, the breaks indicate a very hard brittle material.
I've recently heard reports of some "restored" drill rifle receivers being sold at gun shows for around $275. They were recognized as such by the different color of parkerizing at the welded area on the bottom front of the receiver. The receivers were being sold as serviceable and no mention was made of the welds. This is legally "fraud by deception" (I'm also a retired Attorney) and, if someone is injured using one, could result in personal injury or negligent homicide charges. Please look carefully and ask questions before you purchase any 03 or A3 receiver."
Mr Humble says
"So many, many errors. 03s used as drill rifles were not welded up."
Since Mr Humble never saw the welded up drill rifles, and doesn't seem to know the difference between a deactivated Drill Rifle and a spruced up blank firing honor guard or color guard parade rifle then the level of his personal experience in this matter is in doubt.
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